Trouble with Veritas Custom 4 1/2

[Marko Milisavljevic]

Got Veritas new #4 1/2 with 40 deg frog and PM blade. Blade is hair-cutting sharp, and chipbreaker is set 1/64 to 1/128 from edge. When I use it in wrong direction on some hard maple, I'm getting fuzzies and tearout unless I set it to about 1.5 thou shaving or finer.

In contrast, my Woodriver #4 gives me perfect surface, even though blade is barely catching on my thumbnail, chipbreaker that is over 1/64 from edge and I can take up to 4-5 thou shaving with great results.

What gives? Would 40 vs 45 deg make that much of a difference? There is nothing wrong with Veritas and it is clearly a great plane. I'm doing something wrong but I can't figure it out.

BTW, Veritas has very low center of gravity, it is like using a BU plane. Love that, much better feel than the very top heavy Woordiver #4.

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Marko. A Bd at 40* is not the right choice to make for reverse grain work. The approach angle is too low. Ok for a Bu as the bevel angle adds an accumulative value. A better choice would have been with the 45* degree frog. My personal preference would have been to go even higher, and selected the 55* frog option.

I am a little surprised Derek hasn't offered you advise by now. He is the Veritas spokesman.

Stewie;

[Marko Milisavljevic]

Hi Stewie. For clarification, I am taking advantage of chipbreaker as was hot topic on this forum last year. On my 45 deg Windriver I'm yet to find a board that will not plane nicely in either direction (although my experience is limited to North American species). With this technique, Derek is suggesting 42 deg for these planes. I can't figure out why it isn't working as well as it should for me, but I'm sure he will chime in soon.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Marko

Just seen this - I'm in Cape Town at present, so my time frame is different.

The frog on my #7 is 40 degrees and on my #4 is 42 degrees. With a correctly closed up chipbreaker both plane interlocked and reversing grain without difficulty. One of the reasons I chose to get a 42 degree frog for the #4 was that Warren had converted his Stanley to 42 degrees, and I was curious how it would go.

I tend to use metric for small measurements. I understand 1/64 and 1/128, and from this deduce that you have the chipbreaker between 0.2 - 0.4mm from the edge. Is this correct? If so, 0.2mm is too close, and I would be trying it about 0.4 - 0.5mm. I found somewhere between 0.3 - 0.4mm worked for me (estimated by eye with a ruler alongsideas a guide). Also, the standard chipbreaker comes with a leading edge of 30 degrees from memory. This needs to be increased to 45 - 50 degrees, the latter would probably be better on the 40 degree frog. Did you alter the angle of your chipbreaker? Enquiring minds want to know.

You asked if there a visible difference in the wood surface in performance with the lower 40 degree frog (compared to a higher 45+ degree frog)? I see this more with softer woods than harder woods. On the hardwoods I use the difference is not apparent once a finish goes on.

What I have found is that blade wear is reduced as the bed angle is lowered (with bevel angles held the same).

Regards from Perth

Derek

p.s. Stewie, I am not the Veritas spokesperson, if you are suggesting this in an official capacity. Informally, I guess I do take on this role, but only because I have had access to more of their planes than most. So take what I write with caution. It is just my personal opinion.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

the standard chipbreaker comes with a leading edge of 30 degrees from memory. This needs to be increased to 45 - 50 degrees, the latter would probably be better on the 40 degree frog. Did you alter the angle of your chipbreaker? Enquiring minds want to know.

Derek, I think this may be the key. I skimmed through your review and must have missed it - this would also explain why my Woodriver is doing better - not because of 45 degree frog, but higher combined angle with chipbreaker.

Is it enough to just put a small bevel on the last mm or so of the chipbreaker for this effect?

[Stewie Simpson]

p.s. Stewie, I am not the Veritas spokesperson, if you are suggesting this in an official capacity. Informally, I guess I do take on this role, but only because I have had access to more of their planes than most. So take what I write with caution. It is just my personal opinion.

Hi Derek. I appreciate you clarifying that point, as I finding some of the advise you are offering a little concerning. But in saying so, I do respect the rights of others to form a different view.

regards Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Marko. Attached is the advice by Veritas themselves on the correct choice of frog angles. As you will note, they recommend a 40* frog for end grain work.

regards Stewie;

http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/CustomPlane2.aspx

[Derek Cohen]

Derek, I think this may be the key. I skimmed through your review and must have missed it - this would also explain why my Woodriver is doing better - not because of 45 degree frog, but higher combined angle with chipbreaker.

Is it enough to just put a small bevel on the last mm or so of the chipbreaker for this effect?

Hi Marko

I added a secondary bevel, somewhere around 1/16" wide using an Eclipse honing guide. I also added a slight camber, similar to the camber used on the blade (which is very slight on a smoother). The camber also makes it easier to set the chipbreaker distance.

Please let us know how you get on with this. Lots of enquiring minds here. :)

Regards from Perth (or Cape Town)

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

p.s. Stewie, I am not the Veritas spokesperson, if you are suggesting this in an official capacity. Informally, I guess I do take on this role, but only because I have had access to more of their planes than most. So take what I write with caution. It is just my personal opinion.

Hi Derek. I appreciate you clarifying that point, as I finding some of the advise you are offering a little concerning. But in saying so, I do respect the rights of others to form a different view.

regards Stewie;

Well Stewie, you really must say what advice I give that is "a little concerning". I am always open to learning something new.

Incidentally, the link you provide for the LV Custom plane 40 degree frog is not a recommendation when the plane is used with a set up chipbreaker. It is only for use without a chipbreaker.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Voigt]

Hey Marko,
I'm sure that putting a steeper bevel on your CB will help a lot. But you will probably always find the 40* plane a little more temperamental than the 45*. A 40* bed plus a 50* CB angle will not perform the same as a 50* bed plus a 40* CB angle, even though the included angle is the same. The lower your bed angle, the less leeway you have in setting the CB distance.

Climbing onto my soapbox for a minute, I think people should be cautious about choosing unusual bed angles based on some recommendation they read on the Internet. For about two and a half centuries, planemakers have made double iron planes between 45* and 50*. There's generally a pretty good reason for stuff like that. As far as I know there's no historical precedent for a 40* double iron plane. Which probably means that it was tried and discarded a long time ago.
<climbs off soapbox>

On the bright side, there's plenty of evidence for a 40* BD plane used for end grain--the strike block plane. So if nothing else, your plane will probably work really well for that.

[Curt Putnam]

The nice thing about what may be an experiment is that another frog can be had for little money.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

“Explore often. Only then you will know how small you are and how big the world is.”

― Pradeepa Pandiyan

Curt, I was about to buy 55 deg frog yesterday while at LV but thought I'd check in here before plunking the dough. 55 seems way overkill with tight chipbreaker. I may try 50 deg.

[Steve Voigt]

“Explore often. Only then you will know how small you are and how big the world is.”

― Pradeepa Pandiyan

Curt, I was about to buy 55 deg frog yesterday while at LV but thought I'd check in here before plunking the dough. 55 seems way overkill with tight chipbreaker. I may try 50 deg.

Well, obviously I've offended you, but I actually just meant it as helpful advice for others who were considering unusual bed angles. If you don't mind buying a bunch of different frogs, then have fun.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

Hi Steve, you did't offend me - the point of my quote was to say that I am interested in learning and experimenting, even if it sometimes ends up costing me extra vs established route. Once I "figure out"* woodworking, I doubt I'll be interested in further pursuing it.

* to whatever degree I find satisfactory

[Derek Cohen]

Marko, I agree with Steve's comments about the 40-42 degree angle frogs being a little more difficult to set up. I have said this on several occasions on the forums. However, it is not that much more difficult, and if you are comfortable using a chipbreaker, then you will be successful with it. Note that my article was about how I went about choices for myself, and what to look for. A safer option is 50 degrees, which is as high as I would go with a BD plane unless the blade was narrow. I think that you would not wish to go higher than this with the very wide blade on a #4 1/2. The 50 degree frog also allows you to plane without setting a close up chipbreaker (however it is not as useful when planing end grain).

Come back to us once you have added a higher leading edge to the chipbreaker. I think 50 degrees is right. That is what mine is now (I had it at 45 degrees for the article/review as I was also using a 50 degree frog).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Simon MacGowen]

Well Stewie, you really must say what advice I give that is "a little concerning". I am always open to learning something new.

Incidentally, the link you provide for the LV Custom plane 40 degree frog is not a recommendation when the plane is used with a set up chipbreaker. It is only for use without a chipbreaker.

Regards from Perth

Derek[/QUOTE]

I think that's a fair request from Derek. Looking forward to be told what was concerning.

Simon

[bridger berdel]

Climbing onto my soapbox for a minute, I think people should be cautious about choosing unusual bed angles based on some recommendation they read on the Internet. For about two and a half centuries, planemakers have made double iron planes between 45* and 50*. There's generally a pretty good reason for stuff like that. As far as I know there's no historical precedent for a 40* double iron plane. Which probably means that it was tried and discarded a long time ago.
<climbs off soapbox>

Aren't double iron japanese planes bedded about 40°?

Bridger, just wandering around kicking soapboxes....

[Brian Holcombe]

If the chip breaker is anything like that of a LN it will need some work on the back side to get a really tight fit with the blade, just something to keep in mind in addition to the other advice.

[Marko Milisavljevic]

On new LV planes the chipbreaker it is perfectly machined and mates perfectly with the blade, while tightening of the blade holder screw bends it just slightly to give it enough spring to ensure the force required so that a shaving can't push it's way between. It took me an hour of effort to recreate this last year on my Woodriver plane which has a chipbreaker that at a glance is made the same way, but nowhere as accurately and did not mate along the whole edge. Any messing around with LV could only make it worse. The chipbreaker comes with 25-26 deg bevel which I will increase as suggested above.

[Steve Voigt]

Of course you're right, Bridger. I should've confined my comments to western planes.

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice to hear it's so well put together straight off the bat. The increased angle will be hugely noticeable, I noticed going from 45 to 50.

Steve, I appreciate your comments, going from 55 to 45 made life a whole lot easier for me in my #4 plane.