Tips for replacing these bearings?

[Phil Thien]

Hi.

My JP-155 (Ryobi, made in Japan, the good stuff) is I think around fifteen or so years old now. I've owned it for about 1.5 of those.

It seemed to be getting noisier so an investigation was in order.

I broke it down enough so I could run it w/o the belt. Motor sounds fine.

So I broke it down more to get to the head, removed it, and the bearings are each in bad shape. One is "crunchy" and the other spins way too easily.

My problems:

(1) The sheave looks like a press fit, and pretty close to the bearing.

(2) The bearings are very tight to the head.

I need some sort of bearing puller that can get these off, something that doesn't need a lot of clearance behind what it is pulling. There are a couple of notches in the head where it looks like a bearing puller could fit in.

Any ideas?

[Myk Rian]

Put it in the freezer overnight.

[Phil Thien]

Put it in the freezer overnight.

Right so the aluminum should shrink more than the steel. I had thought of that but didn't think the difference would be enough.

No real downsize to trying it.

Edit to add: Well there is a steel shaft which I imagine is press fit into the aluminum cutterhead. So any freezing would change both dimensions pretty equally.

[Charles Wiggins]

Bearing separator?


https://youtu.be/R25zsdW8Ewo

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Those bolt holes are threaded, right? You need a puller, like this:
http://www.dingocroft.co.uk/acatalog/BSWK14.jpg

[Phil Thien]

Okay, wife went to bed so I had a chance to look at the thing closely.

The sheave is actually threaded on. I was able to remove that.

The bearing on that side was removed with a cheap bearing puller I have. It didn't have a ton of grip, but enough grip to get the bearing moving.

The other side is really on there and it won't come off. I think a bearing separator would be the correct tool but I don't have one and even Harbor Freight charges $45. I suppose I could check w/ the auto parts stores and see if they have one I could borrow.

[Alan Marchbanks]

You might try a rental store for the tool. First, I would try a couple of wedges under the bearing.

[Jim Matthews]

Go to a machine tool shop with $20 and the replacement bearing in your pocket.

Breaking the aluminum with handtool methods is a risk to consider.

[Bill Huber]

Okay, wife went to bed so I had a chance to look at the thing closely.

The sheave is actually threaded on. I was able to remove that.

The bearing on that side was removed with a cheap bearing puller I have. It didn't have a ton of grip, but enough grip to get the bearing moving.

The other side is really on there and it won't come off. I think a bearing separator would be the correct tool but I don't have one and even Harbor Freight charges $45. I suppose I could check w/ the auto parts stores and see if they have one I could borrow.

I got one from Auto Zone, you pay for it and then they give you your money back when you bring it back, they call it tool loan. I don't know if you have Auto Zone up there or not.

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

I recently replaced a few bearings on tools with the HF puller. I don't have a press so I used it to put them on as well. Keep that minimal experience in mind but my take is a machine shop is likely the right way, simply because they can put the bearing back on correctly. If you will have others to do in the future it starts making sense to get the tools, of course.
It was harder than I expected to get the bearing started on the shaft perfectly straight using the puller. It only had to be a little off to cause damage. That said, I did manage and the machines run so much quieter. I don't doubt you could manage as well or better, it's just that this seems like a case where you some want to use the wrong tool for the job. In one of the six bearings I found it had play, but only noticed after I put it on. I was left unclear whether it was bad to start or if I damaged it in getting it on. I never forced it hard out of line but did have to restart it once - had it just started a little when I felt it was off center. Someone else will be able to tell you if they are very easy to damage this way or only somewhat easy. I asked the eBay seller, making clear I was not seeking a replacement, just wanted to have a better idea of what I was doing. They responded and had a replacement on the way (in the system, obviously not in the mail) in under a minute, said it could have been a bad one. I'm still not sure.

Also, be very sure you only press on the inside race when the bearing is on a shaft, and the outside race if it is in a hole without the shaft.

The HF kit did a fine job splitting the bearings away from sheaves etc where there was almost no space and made quick work getting them off.
Well, that's a beginner's take on what you might find.

[Phil Thien]

The tip form the OWWM guys was that if the OD of the bearings was larger than the shaft (or in this case, the head) to use a metal working vise and tap the shaft out. I ended up using my woodworking vise (wood faces removed). I only had maybe 1/16" of overlap on each side, but it did tap out quite easily.

So the head is in good shape, no damage so now I just have to source a couple of replacement bearings. I've decided to just order some (6200-2RS and 6201-2RS) from McMaster. The original were shielded, these will be sealed. I was going to order bearings from eBay but I'm concerned about counterfeit bearings, and also old bearings that have been sitting on a shelf for 20 years and have poor lubrication. The McMaster stuff should be pretty decent.

The highest running speed is at the limit of the sealed bearings (shielded can run faster) but I don't use it for extended runs and I often reduce the speed to reduce the screaming (although maybe I won't have to do that now).

Wish me luck getting the replacements on.

[Rich Riddle]

Phil,

Don't let them know at OWWM you are working on an Asian import. Discussions about those items is taboo.

[Phil Thien]

Phil,

Don't let them know at OWWM you are working on an Asian import. Discussions about those items is taboo.

I didn't, I posed the Q as a general purpose one.

They're good guys, always helpful, just don't want the Asian stuff rubbed in their faces.

And I think they're more tolerant of old Japanese stuff than current Chinese/Taiwanese stuff.

[David Kumm]

Sealed bearings are OK to buy NOS as you can remove the seal and replace the grease. SKF Explorer are a little higher quality than most with just a slight upcharge. Dave

[Phil Thien]

Sealed bearings are OK to buy NOS as you can remove the seal and replace the grease. SKF Explorer are a little higher quality than most with just a slight upcharge. Dave

Are there any online sources for the SKF Explorer? I found a 6201 on eBay but not the 6200.

The bearing market is kinda interesting. It would seem like the ideal product for a web store and yet a lot of sites really are quite terrible (incomplete lines, incomplete data, no shipping/stock information, etc.).

[David Kumm]

Bearings are tough to source if looking for both good and cheap. Local bearing places need a good markup so tough to get good prices on the small stuff we buy. Accurate Bearing is pretty good. Usually NTN, Nachi, good Japanese but not FAG, FAfnir, Barden, SKF. Most sealed or shielded are standard precision ABEC-1 stamped steel cage. Explorer are ABEC3 so rated for a little higher rpm. The old machines I run usually had open phenolic cage precision ABEC 5-7 that are very expensive but decent if you can find on ebay. When you are dealing with woodworking machines you are often dealing with spindle bearings rather than motor bearing applications. Motor bearings are usually C3 clearance to handle the heat. High rpm applications get looser clearance too. The more precision the bearing, the tighter the clearace can be so they are good in a spindle application like a shaper, planer, jointer etc. Probably more than you cared to know but seems like few understand much about bearings. Me included. Dave

[Phil Thien]

My comment about a lack of decent web stores (* in the US) has less to do with cheap and more to do with convenience. I'm just surprised I can't go to a website and click on SKF EXPLORER and drill down to the sizes I need, see the specs, and toss them in my basket. I'd actually pay a PREMIUM to avoid talking to anyone.

I did the * for the US because two great websites were found for ordering in the UK: Bearingboys.com and Qualitybearingsonline.com. They offer exactly the type of experience I'm talking about, and seem to have very aggressive prices to boot. But I don't want to pay $45 for shipping to the colonies.

I think I'll just stick to my plan on taking whatever McMaster ships me. After all I checked the DOB on the jointer and it turns out the thing is 24 years old. If the original shielded bearings lasted 24 years (well, 23.5), whatever McMaster sends should be good for at least a few more.

[Scott Hearn]

Don't forget Amazon. I got 6203s for my table saw's arbor in a couple of days for about $10 ea. They are Nachi Quest series so they are very good quality and likely a step up from factory. If you know the specific number and search you'll likely find they have it available to purchase. Here's one:

http://www.amazon.com/6201-2NSE-Bearing-12x32x10-Sealed-Bearings/dp/B0045DYHAW/ref=sr_1_2?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1428815998&sr=1-2&keywords=6201+bearing

[Fitzhugh Freeman]

No David, not too much at all, though I'm not the op. This is how we learn, or at least how we learn without bleeding, wasting money, etc... We listen to what folks with more knowledge have to say.

Usually followed promptly by doing the opposite and bleeding and wasting money, but at least we can then refer back to what others said

[Dick Strauss]

Phil,
Try Motion Industries for good bearings...they carry SKF, Timken, NTN, NSK, FAG,etc. They are a little high as far as price is concerned, but are very helpful. you can search their catalog just like McCarr.

[Phil Thien]

Well I was pointed to Bearings, Inc. (a local supplier) by a gent at OWWM. I was going to order from McMaster but it just so happened that this morning I was seven minutes away from Bearings, Inc. (I swear it wasn't intentional, the universe just likes me) so made a quick stop and picked up some KOYO parts (made in Romania but a Japanese company--what a global economy). I stopped at home before the next appointment and installed them and gave 'em a spin. Much better. No crunchy noises!

I'll install the knives and wrap it up this evening.

The Koyo 62012RS is rated for 15k and this jointer will do 16k if run at max speed. These are also C3. So I really don't know if these are the ideal bearings for this application, but I only use the jointer for a few minutes at a time, very intermittently and figured I'd give them a shot. Worst-case scenario is I can swap them for something else.

Thanks for all the help/suggestions!

Of to my next appointment, where I get to go up in a bucket lift.

[David Kumm]

Phil, I think you are talking cuts per inch or something other than rpm. I would guess 5-7K rpm for a jointer. Koyo are fine. C3 is a more loose clearance. Clearance is the extra space between inner and outer races and usually used when the bearing inner is around a shaft and outer is trapped inside a housing. Means that heat will expend the inner and outer towards each other, reducing the clearance. C3 is for hot applications like inside a motor or when running near the top end of the rpm ratings, or when running for long periods of time. Won't matter in your application and you will be fine. All things being equal, I specify standard clearance for most of my machines since I'm a light user. Ideally, the people who really understand bearings and machines, specify the proper clearance so that when run under normal conditions, the bearing expands to reduce the clearance just enough to take out radial play but not so much as to create friction and reduce the life of the bearing. Way over my pay grade to know what is exactly right in my applications. Dave

[Phil Thien]

Phil, I think you are talking cuts per inch or something other than rpm. I would guess 5-7K rpm for a jointer. Koyo are fine. C3 is a more loose clearance. Clearance is the extra space between inner and outer races and usually used when the bearing inner is around a shaft and outer is trapped inside a housing. Means that heat will expend the inner and outer towards each other, reducing the clearance. C3 is for hot applications like inside a motor or when running near the top end of the rpm ratings, or when running for long periods of time. Won't matter in your application and you will be fine. All things being equal, I specify standard clearance for most of my machines since I'm a light user. Ideally, the people who really understand bearings and machines, specify the proper clearance so that when run under normal conditions, the bearing expands to reduce the clearance just enough to take out radial play but not so much as to create friction and reduce the life of the bearing. Way over my pay grade to know what is exactly right in my applications. Dave

That all makes sense. Though I think this thing actually can spin at 16k-RPM. It is a small, light-weight unit driven with a universal motor. I don't have a tach but I'd say that listening to it, and comparing it to my routers, I'd say the 16k is probably about right. It is variable speed 8k-16k, with two knives. Newer versions (they're still sold in Japan as the Ryobi HL-6A) are fixed at 16k.

It is really a remarkable little machine. I should have taken pictures of it disassembled, the castings are very impressive. Better than anything I'd be able to find these days. On par with the Inca unit I owned. Of course, it was made 25 years ago, in Japan. I think even the newer ones being sold as the Ryobi HL-6A in Japan are made elsewhere. I base that on the fact that Harbor Freight started selling an identical unit for a while (they stopped maybe 10 years ago). So I imagine they moved production to Taiwan or China and whatever didn't pass Ryobi's inspection were sold-off to Harbor Freight.

[David Kumm]

If it runs that fast, you for sure wanted the C3 clearance. Dave

[Jerome Stanek]

Our Autozone loans tools and they have a bearing separator.

[Myk Rian]

Buying bearings on-line (Eb*y Amaz*n) can be iffy. You don't know how old they are, and take a chance the grease is dried.
At OWWM many of us use Accurate Bearings. www.accuratebearing.com
Lynne will take good care of you, and ship the order out same day if you call early enough.

[Phil Thien]

Well the new bearings are in and knives mounted and lumber jointed. And while it clearly better sounding when coming to a stop, it is still SUPER NOISY while running at speed.

Many of the newer benchtop jointers run at lower speeds. Even if they're variable speed, their top-end may be half the 16k-RPM of this unit.

And I would have no qualms if I could set this unit to (for example) 8k and it had a feedback loop so when wood was going through, it maintains that 8k. But there is no feedback loop, and if you're running at 8k and push a wide piece through, it slows down considerably (I could stall it if I wanted to).

OTOH, maybe a feedback would be a safety issue. Having the motor ramp-up when a wide piece is coming through could lead to a slight delay in power, which may cause hands to slip or something.

Whatever the case, ear protection is really required.

OTOH, even when I had the Inca (8-5/8") with induction motor, hearing protection was required once the unit was running with dust collection. Otherwise it was a bit like standing next to a siren.

I understand the advantages of a segmented head, though. If I used a jointer more, I'd likely want one.

[Rod Sheridan]

Are there any online sources for the SKF Explorer? I found a 6201 on eBay but not the 6200.

The bearing market is kinda interesting. It would seem like the ideal product for a web store and yet a lot of sites really are quite terrible (incomplete lines, incomplete data, no shipping/stock information, etc.).

Phil, another vendor is NTN, I use them frequently for bearings............Rod.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Phil, another vendor is NTN, I use them frequently for bearings............Rod.

I was using NTN bearings today actually, mine were the brand name. Wonder if the vendor the manufacturer in this instance?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-E2M4xG6MSVQ/VS1wGAJ-3EI/AAAAAAAAKJM/Zny_B9kr9jM/w1538-h865-no/20150414_135231.jpg