If you were building the ultimate outboard fence........

[Larry Edgerton]

I had a wood fence for my Minimax that clamped to the table but I want to build a better one for the Uni out of metal, either steel or aluminum or a combination of both.


I looked at the Aigner offering, not really thrilled. I am a pretty good fabricator, my brother and I won a lot of off road races with our stuff, so that is not a problem. I have a small mill at my disposal, although I am not a machinist simple things are not a problem. Tig welding not an issue either. The Uni has 18" in front of the spindle and is tapped for I imagine just such an animal.


So..... If you were going to build one what would yours look like? Features, adjustability, height, etc.

Larry

[Rick Lizek]

Outboard fence? What kind of machine, shaper, tablesaw? When you say Uni I think table saw. I've seen many things in 40 years of commercial woodworking. What purpose does your outboard fence serve?

[Max Neu]

im assuming your talking about a shaper fence.I just use a piece of MDF that clamps to the table. I cut 2 blocks that act as spacers that sit between the shaper fence and outboard fence for adjustments.I use the shapers real fence to make the adjustments, so when I want to move it one way or the other, I know the outboard fence is moving the same amount as the shapers fence.I figured I would utilize the precision of the shaper fence, and just let the outbord fence follow.

[Larry Edgerton]

. I cut 2 blocks that act as spacers that sit between the shaper fence and outboard fence for adjustments.I use the shapers real fence to make the adjustments, so when I want to move it one way or the other, I know the outboard fence is moving the same amount as the shapers fence.I figured I would utilize the precision of the shaper fence, and just let the outbord fence follow.

You know I never thought of that. The hoods on this one are copys of old Martins and have nice adjustments. My old Minimax was only adjustable on one side so it never clicked when I bought the Unitronix. The table on this shaper is 7'6" long so clamping is hard although I did do it that way. Half way through it came loose a bit and moved so I decided to make a new one that utilizes the threaded holes in the table.

Sorry Rick, should have specified shaper.:rolleyes:

[Max Neu]

larry, if you don't already have digital readouts on your fence, maybe consider putting a pro-scale on your main fence, then going with something simple like I descibed with the outboard fence.That way you will get more benefit than putting alot of time and money into an outboard fence.

[Martin Wasner]

Linear bearings mounted on the sides, plate mounted in between, threaded rod to adjust, cheap digital readout for close enough repeatability.

[jack forsberg]

Larry way not make a fence that uses both spindle at once? I mean the out side fence is for single spindle work sizing . if i had your machine i would be doing both sides at once with a trapped head fence in the middle that pivoted in the opening of the two spindles. to mill the width i wanted in one go. That the best outside/trapped head fence for your machine i can think of. call it the UNI fence so your rigs got a name.

[Peter Quinn]

I usually set it up like Max described, piece of something straight clamped or bolted to the table, tapping holes is a lot easier, none of the bigger shapers make it easy to clamp things down. I usually make gauge blocks if precision is involved, so I'll set the main fence up with out feed side flush to the cutter, then slip a gauge block that equals my desired finished width between outfeed fence and outboard fence, clamp it all down, done. Real dirt simple for one offs. I like the Aigner outboard fence, its really a great design, I've seen it copied a few times on older posts, I don't have that kind of ambition or free time. I'm so busy trying to get through the next job I can't be bothered putting half a week into a fixture, and I'm too cheap/broke to spend on the Aigner set up. I like the idea of a gauge that sets the distance repeatably and reliably. I seem to remember a few old posts here going back 4-5 years where a few creekers had some pretty advanced back fence set ups that incorporated dial indicators for adjustment. I'm usually a bump it by feel by loosening one clamp and pivoting off the other kind of guy, which may take longer than it should but has proven surprisingly accurate. Sort of like leaning on a pinball table, its a learned behavior.

I know a guy that has sets of back fences that reference the miter gauge slot, they work with a specific cutter diameter for making S4S for FF production, he does a lot of a few different widths, so you just drop the appropriate block into the miter gauge slot, clamp it down, start running. To change sizes you change blocks. Its not the most flexible system, but its darn sure quick, accurate and repeatable. I think they are just MDF plates with a hard maple edge and a miter gauge bar made of plastic.

Last shop I worked in had a bar of cold rolled steel with a straight edge ground on it, they milled locator pins into the bar and attached angle irons with the same pin holes to the table edges, infeed and out feed sides, kind of like a bit shelf pin jig. They ran a lot of flooring off this set up, so you could quickly switch from any size over an 8 inch range or so, say 8"-16"? I could see that being adapted with a clamp mechanism on each end rather than pins for more adjustability.

Here's a few pics of my high tech approach. This is also a climb cut, I took these to attach to your "dust collection" inquiry!

As a last though, last shop also had made a set of fence plates with springs along the bottom edge pushing on bars, a few screws to limit the forward travel and keep the springs in place. Basically these shop made "pressure bars" pushed out to keep the stock tight to the outboard fence in cases where the feeder alone might not quite do it. Small stuff, odd moldings, slippery things, things that weren't perfectly straight. This was occasionally a very handy accessory. They had really strong springs, but would give just a bit to accommodate slight variations in stock width going on , or not perfectly straight long pieces that could bind up if held too tight by a solid fence on the main hood. I usually just back the main fence plates a safe distance away, say 1/16"? But on occasion it was nice to have that additional control. I seem to remember an old post by Chip Lindsey where he had a had feed out board fence with a real good example of such a feature? Cant seem to find it now, but its out there somewhere.

[Max Neu]

Larry,
Here is another option,you could use the Aigner universal brackets .Once you mount the brackets to the side of your shaper,you could use the Aigner clamps on each end with a piece of wood or metal as a straight edge.This is what I use with my coping sled,but for an outboard fence,I would use their bigger bracket,with a beefier straight edge.Also,once you mount the brackets to your shaper,that also give you the option of using their extension tables,which are very useful also.311141311142

[Larry Edgerton]

Lots of good ideas, thanks.

Max, I like the rail. Surprisingly inexpensive. I could use a piece of aluminum extrusion, and once all set up and tweaked apply an adhesive measuring tape on each end for future repeatability. I have seen them somewhere in left and right reading. I would still need a simple center support because the table is so long to stop deflection, but that could be a simple slotted piece in one of the threaded holes.

That would allow me to clamp an extension table on one end when making long moulding, so double duty.

Gotta get to work....

[Peter Quinn]

Larry,
Here is another option,you could use the Aigner universal brackets .Once you mount the brackets to the side of your shaper,you could use the Aigner clamps on each end with a piece of wood or metal as a straight edge.This is what I use with my coping sled,but for an outboard fence,I would use their bigger bracket,with a beefier straight edge.Also,once you mount the brackets to your shaper,that also give you the option of using their extension tables,which are very useful also.311141311142

Max, any idea what the exact part number/name of those clamps is? Or where are you buying yours? I see the bars on the Martin and simantec sites but don't see the clamps, guessing I'm just not looking for the right thing, that set up is on my short list, looks great.

[Max Neu]

Max, any idea what the exact part number/name of those clamps is? Or where are you buying yours? I see the bars on the Martin and simantec sites but don't see the clamps, guessing I'm just not looking for the right thing, that set up is on my short list, looks great.
Peter,
They are called "clamping shoes" the #'s are 212 262 000 192 (40mm), and 212 266 000 192 (172mm).I think Martin USA is the main distributor for Aigner,but I usually just end up getting it from Simantec.If you don't have an Aigner catalog,I highly recommend getting one,they have all kinds of cool accesories that you just don't see anywhere else.It gives you a good idea how the whole system works.

[J.R. Rutter]

Before I had the dovetail ways built into the shaper tables, I used a 1/4" piece of aluminum sheet with slotted holes aligned with the threaded holes in the table. I used plastic spacer blocks pinched between the shaper fence and outboard guide for common dimensions. I now have a similar fence setup that stays bolted to the sliding portion of the table. I think there is about 5" of adjustability. The working face of the outboard fence was milled straight by a machine shop and has UHMW self adhesive face for non-marring and slipperiness.

[Rod Sheridan]

Larry, I would simply just drill and tap my shaper table to accept my original fence in front of the spindle as opposed to behind it.

Now, if you don't like your original fence, that's a different story...........Rod.

[Max Neu]

Larry, I would simply just drill and tap my shaper table to accept my original fence in front of the spindle as opposed to behind it.

Now, if you don't like your original fence, that's a different story...........Rod.
What about the power feeder? I just can't visualize how that would work.

[J.R. Rutter]

What about the power feeder? I just can't visualize how that would work.

Dust collection would be an issue as well.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Max Neu;2403576]What about the power feeder? I just can't visualize how that would work.[/Q

It only works with pieces wide enough to drop the feeder in.

For narrower pieces I use a piece of aluminum channel.

Dust collection in both cases uses either the tenon hood or curve hood..........Regards, Rod.

[Joe Calhoon]

I had a wood fence for my Minimax that clamped to the table but I want to build a better one for the Uni out of metal, either steel or aluminum or a combination of both.


I looked at the Aigner offering, not really thrilled. I am a pretty good fabricator, my brother and I won a lot of off road races with our stuff, so that is not a problem. I have a small mill at my disposal, although I am not a machinist simple things are not a problem. Tig welding not an issue either. The Uni has 18" in front of the spindle and is tapped for I imagine just such an animal.


So..... If you were going to build one what would yours look like? Features, adjustability, height, etc.

Larry

Larry, The Aigner fence is good if you are only doing window parts. I find it is limited for pieces over 8" wide. The other issue is the thickness of the fence setup. For anything less than about 1 3/4" thick you have to either remove the fence or raise the feeder to swing the feeder out of the way. If you have a power feed arm this is easy but annoying with a conventional feed. That said we use the Aigner a lot and also a shop built fence that attaches to the pullout support on our shaper.
I like the Aigner spring pressure jaws. I find we need these for running thicker door and window parts. I make my own custom plexiglass springs with a heat gun. For a shop built fence I think you could make these springs and find a way to attach. I have always thought narrow spring loaded rollers that attach to the fence would be good for this. Max's method of pushing the material tight to the main fence also works if the stock is well prepared.This works well with a quick setting motorized fence.
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This company has a interesting fence http://www.wynmatic.com/model100.html This type would not work with my shaper because I have things going on infeed and out feed.

Here are a couple simple out side fences on a SCM and Steton shaper.
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Here is a picture of our shop made outboard fence. We have mitered 24" wide beam wraps with this.
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If you build your own I would add a thin guide to the top like the Aigner has. Useful for small moldings.
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[Peter Quinn]

a simple out side fence on a SCM shaper.
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Funny to see this picture, my foreman and I were talking at coffee about outboard fences, the whole shop has been using my Shangai surprise plywood and clamp set up alot, and the general consensus is it works...but there's got to be a better way. Problem with an SCM T130 with he old school slider on the front, the aigner or similar guide bars are all but out, or very limited in range due to the sliding table, tapping the table is challenging in general. But thanks to the help of a fellow creeker we recently acquired an older SAC that has the table tapped, looks like for a factory bolt on tending table? In any event the foreman described a back fence he'd used at another shop, milled from 1/4" aluminum, pretty much like a part on most through molders I've used that sort of acts like a back fence/pressure bar. We drew something up.....exactly the same as that picture! Is that something SCM offers or is that one a custom fab too do you know? I like the idea of the solid support that design offers at the mid span rather than just at each table end. We were talking about including counter sunk holes in the leading edge of the bar, coming from below, so additional fences can be attached to extend the height of the fence for bigger work, the 1/4" height is needed for a bunch of skinny stuff we do. Just really curious to see the physical proof of a concept we were just discussing today!

[Larry Edgerton]

Thanks for the pictures Joe. One of the things I did not get with the Aigner was how you could run thin/small moulding with it. Mostly I will be using this for small runs of reproduction trim parts, and some are small. I think I saw that add-on in the Aigner site but did not realize what it is for. I need to get out more.....

I want those Aigner rails and clamps anyway, so I will order them and get a catalog. Those fences are looking better all the time, but the cheap side of me is still winning. I have been paying attention lately about how much time I spend making safe setups with regular fences and its considerable. I'm thinking with an easy to set up outboard that is versatile and a set of Aigners I could save a lot of time. I do a lot of small runs where setup can ofter take longer than running the stock.

I really need to go to a show, haven't been in 15 years, life always gets in the way.

I have a moulding I have to make I will post on here in a bit that I want opinions on how to make as everyone I want to hear from is on here. Its 150 years old, cool as heck, but not sure how best to have the tooling made.

I was thinking about Jacks post on using both spindles at the same time, but decided that there is just too much going on. I can see wood flying all over the shop. These hoods rotate 360 degrees on a ring like old Martins, both spindles are reversible, so I suppose it could be done but it boggles the mind. It would have to be a long run.

Larry

[Max Neu]

Max's method of pushing the material tight to the main fence also works if the stock is well prepared.
Joe,
The method I was describing earlier does not require well prepared stock,just one straight edge(assuming it's dimensioned closely).The main fence is only used as a reference for making adjustments.I use spacer blocks that sit between the main fence and out board fence while making depth changes.Say you need 1/16" deeper cut,move the main fence back 1/16",hold the spacers against the main fence,and then push the outbord fence against the spacers.The main fence sits behind the cutter,so it's never involved during the process.I just found this an easy way to make precise adjustments with an outboard fence.

[Joe Calhoon]

Max's method of pushing the material tight to the main fence also works if the stock is well prepared.
Joe,
The method I was describing earlier does not require well prepared stock,just one straight edge(assuming it's dimensioned closely).The main fence is only used as a reference for making adjustments.I use spacer blocks that sit between the main fence and out board fence while making depth changes.Say you need 1/16" deeper cut,move the main fence back 1/16",hold the spacers against the main fence,and then push the outbord fence against the spacers.The main fence sits behind the cutter,so it's never involved during the process.I just found this an easy way to make precise adjustments with an outboard fence.

Max, Do you find the stock wants to move away from the outboard fence without something pushing against it? I find we can do cabinet doors this way but anything thicker wants to suck into the cutter the first few inches.
way back we used to climb cut with outside fences on the little Delta and Powermatic shapers. Climb cutting seems to keep stock pushed against the fence better but we do hardly any climb cuts anymore.

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[Joe Calhoon]

Peter,
Those are stock fences. The picture is from the Milan show 8 or so years ago. The Italians put bead saws on their shapers. You won't see that at the shows here.
I found a better picture of the fence.

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Here is my shop made fence 10 years old. I want to make a better one. I think a sheet of 3/8" alu with slots routed where I drew the black lines. Use kip levers to hold and like you suggest some countersunk holes near the edge for attaching higher fences.

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[Max Neu]

Joe,
I don't have a problem keeping the material against the fence.But, I am not running thick material like you do either, mostly just 3/4"-7/8" size stock.I could see where taking big cuts like what you do could be an issue for my setup.

[Larry Edgerton]

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t468/crookedtreejoinery/Trim_zpsokeet5ng.jpg (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/crookedtreejoinery/media/Trim_zpsokeet5ng.jpg.html)

Ok, this is the piece, and the one in question is the egg shaped one with the X on it. If you had to make that how would you go about it? I have a couple of ideas but I don't like either. This is out of an old Italianate I have to add on to, and I may want to use it in my house. It looks much better on the wall than in this pic.

[Joe Calhoon]

Larry depends on the quantity. Its all about support with this type work.
Say less than 100 lineal. In my shop with the tilt spindle I could do this in 3 or 4 passes using existing radius cutters and a rebate head. Fooling around with the tilt can take some time and depending on shop rate sometimes grinding a knife is cheaper. We tilt the head a lot just to get it done right away.

If grinding knives you could go 2 passes or 3 using a rebate head for the bottom. The rebate could be the last cut or the second. Many ways - the inside round could be run. then put the X outside down on the table and run the rebate without any support (turned on edge) Then the outside with a ledge on the outside fence to support the rebate.
Sometime it is best to dive into something like this and you will figure it out. I would also consider running the entire outside cap as one piece. In any case you will get a little sniping at the ends but should not matter for moulding.

At a certain quantity a moulder setup can be the least expensive.

You could also run the entire top as a first pass, then the rabate then the last outside round supporting the rebate with the back fence. This way on the most visible part you would not see any lines from multi passes.

[Peter Quinn]

To me that looks like a bullnose on the left, a slightly larger quarter round on the right and a rebate on the bottom, I'd probably try running it in that order. May leave you a subtle witness line to sand at the apex on the front, but thats to me nearly inevitable and the easiest point to hand message. For the rebate, I'm thinking I'd run it off the main fence with a solid bridged fence (in my case a sheet- o -plywood with a little notch at the bottom, cutter from below, a shim on the table at outfeed to take up the space of the missing rebate and keep it from tipping, and a tall block clamped behind it so the piece is held captive between fence and block, the feeder is only really needed to push forward, which is good, because you wont have much purchase on the top of that egg at that point. For that last pass I think feeder position is the most critical, you have very little flat on the out feed side, so the shim has to be perfect and the feeder has to have as little angle toward the fence as possible to make it go the direction you want. I can't quite tell the scale, but it might be easier to run the first two passes if a couple of chamfers are sawn of the top first, to relieve the depth of cut a bit? Maybe not an issue, but if it seems chattery could help. Interesting old molding, I can see that being really beautiful in the right scale of space.

[Max Neu]

I think I would run the rabbet first,then mill some stock that would fill in the rabbet.You could use some thin double face tape to temporarily hold it in there.Then run the funky looking radius (a thumbnail edge might work),then run the bullnose.Hopefully the rabbet filler stay's in during all that.You could probably even use a few micro pins to attach the filler/support piece,as long as they were short enough to not interfere with the radius above.

[Larry Edgerton]

It does not show up so much in that picture, but that is an increasing radius curve on the right, and it does make a difference in the look so.....

This is what I was thinking.

I am going to have a cutter made for that front ellipse. I will start with a wide piece of 8/4, and have the 1/2 facing the room all done in one cut on the edge of the 8/4 with the ground cutter, then stand the board up against the fence and cut the back radius, flip the board and around and cut the rebate, then cut off with the tablesaw on both sides and start all over. Once the board gets down to about 5-6 inches that will be it because I will have nothing to run the feeder on and to keep it flat.

I only have to make about 160 feet or I would farm it out, but then again I make shop rate doing these weird items, so what the heck. Time and material is the only way I will do this stuff in small quantities. If you tell people what is going to cost a foot they get all indignant on you. Six hours of shop time they can handle.

I thought maybe I was missing something, but sounds like not. I hate these little pieces but its part of the job.

Thank you gentlemen!

Larry

[Joe Calhoon]

Here is another idea for an outboard fence on a Okoma shaper I saw last week in Germany. This would be easy to fabricate. It uses a turret stop. As you can see they have a custom stop in place.
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[Susumu Mori]

Hi Larry,

Is your slider shaper a saw-shaper combo machine? If so, I'm just curious if you can't use your table saw rip fence.
Sorry if this is a silly idea but I'm just wondering....

[ian maybury]

:) Interesting discussion to follow guys - there comes a point where it takes experience to even have a sensible thought on a matter.