Take out the windows & gut the kitchen.....

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I replaced the windows in our home 30 years ago. At the time they were the newest and best technology but most have now failed. I could replace just the glass but some of the plastic that isolates the sliding aluminum frame from the stationary aluminum frame has broken over the years too. So, it's time to replace them. So I contacted 3 window companies and got 3 estimates. Most of the window companies prefer to use nail flange installation only on new construction. I prefer nail flange use. The interior trimmed I installed 30 years ago, in my inexperience, I finished with a wax finish. Over time, the sun's UV rays have severely damaged the wood. My wife wants the trim for the new windows to be red oak. So to get "new installation" technique for the new windows and to get my wife's red oak interior trim, I am removing the exterior and interior trim. After the window company removes the old windows and installs the new ones, I will trim them inside and out.

Now at this point....don't ask me how but a snowball effect or avalanche occurred......and the situation got much more expensive.

Our home was built in 1966 as a starter home. It is a 3 bedroom ranch, has 936 sq. ft. on the main floor and a finished basement of equal size. The kitchen measures 8' by 9' and within that area is located the range, the refrigerator and the kitchen sink. My wife has about 6' of countertop upon which to work. Obviously she doesn't have a lot of room left for cabinetry either. I believe it was me trying to figure out how I could install the new trim for the window over the kitchen sink without damaging my 30 year old tile work that got me to realize that the 49 year old site built oak plywood cabinets were worn out, tired and needed replacing. As you can see in the photo, the current kitchen doesn't have room for a dishwasher. My wife introduces me as the dishwasher. Just around the corner from the kitchen is the door opening into the hallway that provides access to a 28" by 29 " pantry. The kitchen is SMALL!

This the actual "kitchen". For an general idea of size....the range is a 30" range....not much room!

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The wall above the sink is the wall that will be pushed out 8'.

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The remodel will remove the soffits and an 4'x2' island will be where this range is located.

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The shallow cabinet to the left is used to store cups and glasses. In the hallway just beyond that cabinet is the door to the small pantry.

While I could build the cabinets and turn out a good product, by myself it would take me forever!

My wife and I discussed bumping out the dining room and kitchen but due to an escape window for a basement bedroom directly under the dining room, we couldn't fathom bumping out the dining room.

I contacted 3 general contractors recommended by my painting contractor neighbor. One contractor built the empty shell for my shop. The 2nd general contractor I knew by way of a mutual friend. The 3rd I have yet to meet.

The economy must be good.

The first contractor who built the empty shell for my shop, returned my call, showed up, analyzed the situation and recommended we get a specific well respected cabinet shop involved with the design. He agreed that he wouldn't recommend bumping out the dining room for the reasons we had. He later called, scheduled us to meet with him and the cabinet shop owner at our home. They arrived. After about 2 hours we had a mutually agreeable design with a 8'x8' bumpout on just the kitchen. A few days later he hand delivered a bid for the entire job including electrical, HVAC, plumbing, building the bumpout and custom cabinetry.

The 2nd general contractor showed up a few days later. He didn't like the idea of a bumpout unless he bumped out a different wall consuming some of our carport. In the end he would have only added 3' of cabinetry, counter top and 24 sq. ft. of space in the kitchen. Hello? The main object is to gain cabinetry, counter top and square footage in the kitchen. He stated he wouldn't bid the job, would charge us time and materials, he would build it the way he wanted, my wife would like his results and he couldn't start until late August. My wife didn't say a word but she did let him leave alive. He had her so angry when we went to dinner later she was ready to quit the whole idea of a kitchen remodel or expansion!

The 3rd general contractor told our painting contractor neighbor he'd gotten our message and would call us back. He hasn't called yet. Business must be good!

My wife had a trip scheduled last Friday leaving town to visit a granddaughter-in-law, 6 year old great-grandson and 7 month old great-granddaughter in Port Orchard, WA. Our grandson is out at sea on a aircraft carrier. So last Thursday we got the ball rolling by coming to an agreement with the guy who built my shop. He sent us to a designer where my wife picked out the flooring. She sent us to a grante company where the wife picked out the countertop granite. From there we stopped at an appliance store buying a new gas range, range hood, wall oven and dishwasher. Thus all my questions recently about materials. All the cabinet doors will have Blum soft-close European hinges....all the drawers will have Blummotion soft-close drawer slides...the cabinets will be built with oak plywood versus melamine....

I visited the cabinet shop this week to see examples of his work. We discussed me doing the finish carpentry. His spray shop mixes their own stains. He said he'd be happy to provide me with stain that would allow me to match the trim for the walls and windows with the trim on the cabinetry.

Last night my contractor brought over the building permit application for my signature. He's finishing up a job, hopes to have the building permit and start our remodel mid-week next week.

I made room in my basement office and moved all the food from the pantry to my office. Earlier this week, I bought some cardboard boxes as most stores locally crush, bale and recycle their cardboard boxes. In my wife's absence I've begun packing out cookware and moving it elsewhere within our home. Next week I'll make a trip to my hardwood supplier 30 miles north to buy some oak to mill for trim.

After the kitchen remodel is over, I will remove the trim for the windows and have the window company install the new windows. In the mean time I will stain and pre-finish the trim and get ready for my little portion of the job.

[John TenEyck]

Ken, that is a big undertaking but one that will pay off for many years to come in all regards, convenience, aesthetics, and just plain space. I would have done it long ago just to get a dishwasher. Actually, I did! Getting rid of those soffits will make the room seem a lot large all by itself. My old kitchen had a similar design albeit a lot larger. The minute I pulled out the soffits I knew we had made the right decision.

Your comments about the 3 contractors sounds pretty familiar. In 35+ years of living in our home I think I've hired maybe 8 or 10 contractors for various things. Less than half have been good, and that was from the ones I actually gave work to after weeding out the complete duds. It is amazing to me how some contractors manage to stay in business; then again, half of them did fool me - once. It sounds like the one you gave the job to knows what he's doing and that doing what you promise, when you promise it, is priceless in dealing with customers.

Have you thought about letting him finish your trim after you get it milled? You are more likely to get a perfect match to your cabinets that way and his price might not be bad for all the other work you're giving him.

John

[John A langley]

Ken I would think twice about the wall oven if you use a freestanding stove you gaintwo more feet of counter space by illuminating the wall oven that's just my two cents I'm sure you're going to enjoy your remodel

[John A langley]

You'll need to show this to your wife

[Chris Padilla]

LOL! I haven't seen or read Shoe in a long time!!! :D

[Jim Dwight]

I hope it goes well. We had a garage added (for my shop) and a room over it, and the existing room over the 2 car "old" garage expanded, and another large dormer added so I could add another attic space room. I used the contractor to build the previous house so I knew him. He cares about what it looks like and isn't bad about money. But he is always late finishing. So we pretty much knew what we were getting but it was still tough. The drywall tapers made huge messes. He initially wanted to have a 5'3" wall on one dormer. We like the space now but we were VERY glad to see him leave. I did the finish electrical, painting, and finish carpentry. And the floors. It's all done now and we like it. But we need the bathroom redone and a new kitchen. I'm working on the shop at the moment because my wife was tired of the mess and didn't want the bathrooms to start, yet. But it was worth it. We just wish all of it was done. Yours seems more constrained.

In a separate arrangement we had all the windows replaced by window world. The exterior of our house is brick so I didn't go with new construction windows. So we lost a little glass space but we are very happy with the new windows. The WW contractor was great. He showed up, did his stuff, and left. I did some additional caulking but otherwise their work was fine. I had the contractor use Lowe's vinyl windows, a mid-grade model, because we though they were similar. They are not. WW are much better windows.

[Allan Speers]

Saw the title of this thread, and thought it was a song:


Take out the windows, gut the kitchen …….

Or soon the wife she will be ……….

A brand new toy should ease the friction ………

For a new Fes -tool you’ll soon be itchin’ …….

Yaketty-yak, don’t talk back. Yaketty-yak, yaketty-YAK ………….

-------------------------------------------------


Sorry, it's been a really tough day ! :o

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken I would think twice about the wall oven if you use a freestanding stove you gaintwo more feet of counter space by illuminating the wall oven that's just my two cents I'm sure you're going to enjoy your remodel

John, Thanks for the advice! The appliances have already been purchased. She wanted the wall oven and was willing to give up the space. That gives her 3 ovens in the kitchen as the gas range has two ovens. It's her kitchen.

[Jim Becker]

Ken is clearly illustrating the required "She Who Must Be Obeyed" obedience. :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken is clearly illustrating the required "She Who Must Be Obeyed" obedience. :D

It's worked for 47 years and at this stage of the relationship, a judge wouldn't have any sympathy!:o

[Cameron Hood]

Ken, having gone through this in the last 10 years, I want to caution you on one thing. The words "while we are at it". When you hear them, run. We had a similar situation, small kitchen, microscopic dining room, etc. It started out as an idea to just fix the kitchen. But once that is done, every room butting up to the kitchen looks, well, terrible. So you redo all the rooms that butt up to the kitchen. But now, the rooms that butted up to them look, well............

[Chris Padilla]

Pretty typical, Cameron. Also, once you're 'done' remodeling the house, the very first room you did will look outdated and thus it starts again.... ;)

[Jim Dwight]

My wife will get a double wall oven in her new kitchen, eventually, unless she changes her mind. It is twice as much money as a range and she hardly ever uses the oven she has - but it makes no sense to try and interject logic. She wants what she wants.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Ken, having gone through this in the last 10 years, I want to caution you on one thing. The words "while we are at it". When you hear them, runLOL!
I'm the one that usually says that & my wife cringes every time she hears it!

In my world, budgets are there only to laugh at while you sail on by them!
I started the budget of our latest renovation @ $10,000.00. When I signed the contract for the $4,800.00 driveway my wife just rolled her eyes and told me I was half way to the budget

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ken, having gone through this in the last 10 years, I want to caution you on one thing. The words "while we are at it". When you hear them, run. We had a similar situation, small kitchen, microscopic dining room, etc. It started out as an idea to just fix the kitchen. But once that is done, every room butting up to the kitchen looks, well, terrible. So you redo all the rooms that butt up to the kitchen. But now, the rooms that butted up to them look, well............

Cameron....it's already past that! The new flooring will tie the kitchen, dining room and main hallway together. Of course new flooring is required in the bathroom too.


LOL!
I'm the one that usually says that & my wife cringes every time she hears it!

In my world, budgets are there only to laugh at while you sail on by them!
I started the budget of our latest renovation @ $10,000.00. When I signed the contract for the $4,800.00 driveway my wife just rolled her eyes and told me I was half way to the budget

That's my attitude Rich. We started out wanting to replace the windows because most of the are leaking now between the inner and outer panes(discovered this when I was washing them) .....then I was going to have to redo the trim around the windows if we replace them......of course....that would damage the tile back splash above the kitchen counters (Cameron) so it became...these cabinets are 49 years old, tired, worn out and if we are going to replace them, might as well get granite countertops.....if we are going to do that....then while we are at it, we might as well bump out and expand the kitchen......the budget went from well under $10,000 to considerably more than what we paid for the house 30 years ago. But.....my wife loves to cook and we have friends and family over regularly, especially around the holidays. She suggested I build a stand-alone woodworking shop. Though she could have retired, she kept working to help pay for that shop. She deserves a new and bigger kitchen if that is what she wants!

[Phil Thien]

I look forward to after pictures, I agree w/ every move you made.

I also agree with John about having the cabinet guy finish all your trim for you. That will save some time and provide a great result.

When we did our kitchen with Woodmode cabinets, the installers ordered all the trim (prefinished) from Woodmode as well. About six months later I was replacing some flooring and thought it would be nice to have matching trim and asked the kitchen guys if it was possible to order more from Woodmode. "No problem."

A couple of weeks later they dropped about eight sticks off at my office. It really didn't cost much, I think I ended up paying about 25% more than I would have for the unfinished trim stock.

It was red oak and they filled the grain, stained it to a perfect match with the rest of the stuff, and it has a hard-as-nails topcoat.

[Phil Thien]

That's my attitude Rich. We started out wanting to replace the windows because most of the are leaking now between the inner and outer panes(discovered this when I was washing them) .....then I was going to have to redo the trim around the windows if we replace them......of course....that would damage the tile back splash above the kitchen counters (Cameron) so it became...these cabinets are 49 years old, tired, worn out and if we are going to replace them, might as well get granite countertops.....if we are going to do that....then while we are at it, we might as well bump out and expand the kitchen......the budget went from well under $10,000 to considerably more than what we paid for the house 30 years ago. But.....my wife loves to cook and we have friends and family over regularly, especially around the holidays. She suggested I build a stand-alone woodworking shop. Though she could have retired, she kept working to help pay for that shop. She deserves a new and bigger kitchen if that is what she wants!

Economizing on stuff like this leads to unsightly compromises, IMHO. That comes from years of experience trying to economize on stuff like this.

99% of the battle is finding someone that does good work, that you can trust. You've got that covered.

[Rich Engelhardt]

While I could build the cabinets and turn out a good product, by myself it would take me forever!
Ken,
I'll let you know what you're missing here i few weeks :D.

I've gotten prices for buying some lower cost "builder grade" kitchens for the renovation we just started on our newest rental.

I ran some numbers for buying them vs making them myself and I have to go with making them myself.
It's not saving money as much as it is getting what we want.

Fellow Creeker George Bokros has offered to give me some guidance on making them using the Marc Sommerfeld T&G method.
I watched the videos and it all looks pretty straight forward.

"Forever" is a relative term!
I have an absolute deadline of July 4th to be 100% finished with the entire renovation.
Before I can even think of the kitchen though, I have to tear out the old bathroom and redo that. The floor is all rotted and I'm afraid someone big, fat, slow and stupid (which describes me to a T!") is going to go through the floor while they are "taking care of business"!
LOL!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Well, the addition has been added and the section of the wall cutout to add it to the kitchen. The plumbing, electrical, HVAC roughins have been performed, insulation installed and all inspections have been passed. The sheetrock has been hung and the sheetrocker put on the 3rd and final coat of mud this morning. Tomorrow morning, he will arrive and prime the walls and ceiling. Leave and return later in the day to texture the ceiling and walls.

We also had the general contractor install all new windows. My general contractor will only install windows using nail flanges and I agree! I am painting the exterior trim on the windows. Also, I am manufacturing and installing the interior window trim and new baseboards.

The general contractor was here today. He's trying to arrange for the painter to be here on Friday.

While the electricians were here doing the roughins and the wet wall between kitchen and the bathroom open, we had them install a much needed ventilation fan in the bathroom. It was easy to wire it while the wall was open.

We are installing a gas range but also had them wire 240 vac electric stove outlet for possible future use and a 120 outlet of course.

My wife and I bought all the new lights that we needed to coordinate with a recently purchased chandelier over the dining room table. They also installed 4 dimmable recessed LED cans and wired for under cabinet LEDs.

My wife and the cabinet maker arrived at an agreed cabinet layout and design. The cabinets were built last week and were to go into the finishing room this week. My wife picked out hickory for the wood with a special walnut stain. The cabinet maker brought over a gallon of the stain so I can begin to manufacture, stain and finish the interior window trim and baseboards.

My wife found a beautiful distinctive Sedna granite for the counter tops and island top. The salesman put our name on it only to find out a week later, both the sheets had been sold. My wife was in tears. A couple weeks later they found another very similar piece at their supplier. Based on the photographs of the new slab, I suspect the piece they found came from the same block when it was slabbed out.

Tile has been picked out for the backsplash, paint colors have been determined.

I will be glad when it's done! If I was to do it all over again, I'd rent a storage unit and move all the furniture from the rooms being renovated to storage. Right now it is impossible to use our living room as the furniture from the dining room is in there. Our spare main floor bedroom is tied up with dishes and such. I moved all the food from the pantry that was removed into my office in the basement. My wife has done a masterful job using a temporary kitchen set up throughout our basement.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

These 1st two photos are pre-renovation. In the 2nd photo, notice the cabinets at the left with 4 doors. Those were 8" deep cabinets we used to store glasses, etc. Immediately behind that with a door opening into the hallway was a very small pantry which also got removed in the remodel.

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It was 39" across from the handle of the refrigerator to the handle on the range. In the remodel, the range gets moved to the left side, the refrigerator gets moved to where the pantry was originally. The addition basically pushes the wall where the sink is out 8'. It doubles the amount of cabinet space for my wife. All the soffits are removed and the new cabinets go to the ceiling. Where the range exists in these photos becomes a 5' island with a 36" opening between the wall and the island.

Here's the addition added. Notice where the water and sink ventilation pipes came up through the existing floor.

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And finally here's a photo of the slab of granite my wife bought for the counter tops.

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[Jim Dwight]

I love the granite but I think my wife will go with something lighter. We put natural finish (pre-finished) hickory flooring in the new areas and really like it. I am curious how walnut stained hickory will look in your cabinets. I've cut up some of the scraps for things in the shop and it is hard, heavy wood. I'm not sure if I would like making doors out of it. But my wife is firm that she isn't waiting for me to make cabinets. We'll probably start looking soon. The prices on the Chinese knock down variety look good but I have not idea if I could have them in the house yet (Lily Ann and RTA). Cabinets to go has a showroom in the area too. She says she really likes some Kitchen Aide ones at Lowe's. She may get those but we need to see how much more they are and decide if they're worth it. I might look at having somebody local make them too.

[Ole Anderson]

I remodeled mine 2 years ago, did most of the work myself. One problem I had (and still have) is that the hickory cabinets and trim don't match the pine windows which were stained a dozen years ago during a general window replacement.

I was fortunate that my wife pretty much went along with my ideas for the remodel, but she had the right of veto. Counter top, floor and paint were she had the most input.

[Phil Thien]

Looking good, Ken! Windows and cabinets going in allows one to see light at the end of the tunnel.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim,

the special walnut stain doesn't darken the hickory much. We actually had a door sample made up that way for a week. We used it to help pick the flooring, wall color, etc. We are going with a vinyl plank flooring with a medium varying tones of wood in it. I forget the actual name of the tone/variety of wood.

Ole, I would love to have made the cabinets but I am too slow. It would have taken FOREVER. While I have the skills, I am just too slow! When it comes to my woodworking I am a perfectionist.

BTW, my wife has been in control of the whole thing as it is her kitchen. I did insist on one thing. We had our cabinets made of plywood not MDF.

It's been fun watching the pros doing their profession! The sheetrocker has all the tools and 24 years experience. In the past I did all the remodels to our 3 homes we have owned. I watched this guy make my sheetrocking and mudding look just like the amateur I am. I learned a lot just watching him briefly each day! The same was true with respect to all the trades!

[Jim Dwight]

The hickory flooring we installed had a LOT of color variation. Everything from almost white to almost black. Some green in there too. I would guess a stain would even out some of that variation.

I agree about plywood in the cabinets. The least expensive I am considering are plywood boxes and solid wood doors and dovetailed drawers (all with soft close hardware). If they are decent, I would be getting a very low wage for my time building anything. But they only get 3 drawers in a base cabinet, I know I could get 4. So using them will waste some space. But it will be what the wife wants. I get to ask questions and force her to talk about it some but it will be her decision.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Later this fall, I will build new cabinets for the bathroom on the main floor. This involved one vanity, one medicine chest and one wall mounted cabinet. That I have room to build, finish and store in my shop. The kitchen cabinets....the volume is so much, it would be difficult to do. Could I do it? Yes. But would take forever.

[Anthony Whitesell]

Ken,

Look for windows with "brick moulding". The design basis for the windows are for installation in brick facade homes, but will install in a wood frame house. I know I did it. The advantage is by playing with the width of the moulding and the rough opening you may be able to find a window that drops into the opening in the siding. In my case I was left with a 5/8" adder instead of 3/4" between the rough opening and the window spec. Brick moulding windows attach my screwing/nailing through the moulding. My windows (Legend series by Windsor Windows) are 8 years old and I have had no problems with them.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Anthony,

The windows have already been purchased and installed. We installed Montecito windows, a thermo-pane vinyl with E-glass and argon gas by Milgard. They were easily installed as 30 years ago, I replaced the original single pane windows with a thermo-pane aluminum window that was high tech at that time. When I replaced the original windows, I cut the siding to use the nailing flanges, installed the windows and then trimmed out the window exterior. These aluminum thermo-pane windows had a thermo-isolation barrier within the window and the frame but the thermo-panes developed leaks between the panes. So to install the new Montecito vinyl windows, all the contractor had to do was remove the existing trim, pull the nails and the windows out, install the new windows and trim them out. I am painting the new trim.

[Jim Dwight]

I built a new kitchen for our house in Pittsburgh about 15 years ago. I didn't have a dedicated shop, I used the front of the deep 2 car garage. They were 3/4 oak plywood boxes with solid oak raised panel doors. Drawers were dovetailed beech or hard maple. I got it done by making a cabinet or two at a time then installing them then back to making cabinets. That wife was very happy with the end result. I later built a new kitchen island out of cherry for a house we sold in 2013. Again, the wife I built it for (now deceased) was happy with the result. Again I built a cabinet, then tore out the old one and installed the new. There was a weekend each time I switched out cabinets where her kitchen was messed up for a few hours. But it was never completely unusable. Total job took months working nights and weekends.

Current wife doesn't want to be in transition for months and has done kitchens before me using cabinets from the home center. So that's what she wants to do again. I will make my points about storage space but unless she changes her mind, I will be buying cabinets this time. They will be worse in at least some ways from what I would make but it won't take as long to get them and they will probably be better in some ways too.