Is it still possible to make a decent living in the custom carpentry business?

[Michael Yadfar]

I'm young, and I go to college for Horticulture, Landscaping, and Turf Management. Woodworking and carpentry have always been things I've loved, I always had an interest going back to watching my dad doing projects around the house as young kid. I took woodshop in Middle School, and all four years of high school I took a woodworking/carpentry class as electives. Through these classes, I learned everything from cabinet making to platform framing, and also learned how to use 3D design. I was a standout student in the class by a pretty big margin. I also took drafting and architectural design classes where I was a real standout student, but the reason I never chose to major in engineering or architecture is because I didn't enjoy it enough to do as a living, even with the big money. I also have a home shop I built, where I have about $5,000 worth of woodworking equipment where I still work with wood.

The reason I never went to further my education in carpentry is because I like the industry I'm majoring in now, and I also feared the outlook of the market I wanted to go into. I know there's good money and good job outlook in commercial construction and framing, and a lot of trade schools and colleges are geared around those industries. However, I'm not really into that, I would much rather work in finish carpentry. I would like to be self employed, and do work like custom furniture building, home renovations, basement finishing, general handyman work, and light construction (such as custom shed and chicken coop construction).

I go to a top school in the industry I'm in now, and there are many jobs I can find out of here (as other graduates have) that make decent livings at $35,000+/year starting. I do enjoy the trade, but I really miss carpentry and that's really my thing. I'm definitely going to finish up my education here, but I was considering going to another good college after this that offers a two year carpentry and cabinet making program.

My biggest concern which lead me to taking an alternative route is the fact that a lot of people can't afford custom carpentry these days, and even those that do, many prefer to get the cheap stuff from Walmart or wherever. When I was graduating, my construction teacher was happy with the choice I made, but he did encourage me to go into the field and said there's a lot of opportunity in custom carpentry. So I'm wondering if there is?

[Jim Matthews]

The high end market can be reached, but only if you build to the taste of your clients.

My mentor is capable of making fine furniture - which does not sell.
He makes 'farm tables', distressed cabinetry and wooden kitchen island tops.

The trick is in satisfying the first client who will proselytize for you.

If you're not earning a dollar a minute for your work - you're not a professional.
It's very difficult to make fine furniture that fast, at low prices.

Have a look at restoration carpentry. Windows, in particular are profitable.
http://restorationtradesdirectory.com/carpenters_restoration

[Curt Harms]

I think one of the requirements to making a living doing custom anything is to be in an area where enough people have the disposable income to be able to afford such services. You wouldn't be selling one of life's necessities but rather one of life's niceties. Then as Jim says you'll need to cater to clients' tastes which may well change. Maybe develop a relationship with area designers?

[Erik Loza]

I have a number of customers who are one-man furniture makers and actually do it for a living. But I have lot more customers who probably are very skilled but have no market.

No answers except to say that based on what I see, you would probably be more succesful with mediocre work and great marketing or know how to market your products very well, rather than maybe a great woodworker that cannot market or reach clients.

I have one owner who builds beautiful Adirondack chairs that will outlast any of us: Ipe, stainless fasteners, but also very expensive and I don't believe he sells many of them. Then, you go to the local farmer's market and see some mom-n-pop booth selling cedar Adirondack chairs that look (and are) cheap but guess what? Folks sitting in them, mom and pop gabbing it up with shoppers, etc. I know who has the better chair but guess who probably makes more money?

Erik

[Mark Patoka]

You may want to talk to or maybe even try to get a job working with some local cabinet shops or finish carpentry guys to get a feel for the business side of doing that every day. That should also give you good contacts and help you establish your name if your quality and personality live up to the hype. The other responders make very good points, the building trades industry has changed quite a bit over the years and people are always trying to save $$$. No matter how good, mediocre or bad your product quality is, you have to know your market and be able to handle the business side of it.

[Sam Murdoch]

I would much rather work in finish carpentry. I would like to be self employed, and do work like custom furniture building, home renovations, basement finishing, general handyman work, and light construction (such as custom shed and chicken coop construction).



Building a profitable business in such a hands on industry involves a very steep learning curve with sooooo many variables/pitfalls/unforeseen expenses and to be fair some very intense positive feedback (if you are talented). The vagaries of the marketplace, customer style taste and the capriciousness of trends makes the carpentry/cabinetmaking/furniture, game/business/vocation very competitive.

Are you prepared for a life time of jumping around to all the variety of projects you describe above? Oh - and add days or weeks at a time to develop concept drawings for your prospective clients - 90% +/- of whom will never become true clients.

If you live and work in a vibrant urban area (today) your chances are better than that of the same person with the same skill set starting up in a more rural environment. However, in the urban you are likely to encounter more like competition and more municipal bureaucratic obstacles while in the rural area you will incur the extra costs of goods and transportation but likely be more of a rare talent and so easier to create a niche.

Do you intend to have employees? Work alone? Holy smokes I could write for another hour or two describing all manner of the highs and lows of each option.

If you love it and are well disciplined and pretty even tempered you can make it work. Some months/years you could be a wealthy man, and just as quickly be so very happy to be asked to build a chicken coop. You might also just develop the perfect little life style that allows you a great deal of freedom, satisfaction, artistic expression, notoriety, quality time with family and a decent profit too.

Is it still possible to make a decent living in the custom carpentry business?

I don't know. :confused: :D

[Robert Engel]

I think alot depends on location. In my area of NE FL, most of the guys I know are pretty much doing custom cabinetry work such as built-ins, fireplace surrounds, the occasional bar, etc. There's virtually no furniture makers anywhere. Very few guys are building kitchens anymore because they can't compete with the box stores.

However, to the North of me in Savannah, GA or further up in Charleston, SC there's a better market because people are looking for restoration work and occasionally replication of antique or museum pieces.

Everybody has to start somewhere, and a have a couple friends with decent businesses that just started in their garage building a gun cabinet for a friend or something like that. Its a slow process so you might consider doing it on the side and see what happens. If you get that one breakthrough project, then word of mouth will bring the business.

At least up where you are you've got good lumber!

[Andrew Joiner]

I was going to re-post some of our discussion from:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220566-Woodworking-for-a-living

but I'll just answer your questions the best way I can for today.

Is it still possible to make a decent living in the custom carpentry business? Yes, but I have a few questions for you.

1- Does your state require licenses for contractors?
2- Have you ever ran a business?

If your skilled in business your profits get more decent.

My gut feeling is you might want try this plan. Didn't you say you work now in landscaping as well as go to school? I'd keep that job and save my money. Look for "side jobs" in landscaping and carpentry. Learn how to run your own business. You can get an idea of what it's like to bid on jobs and work with customers before you even make a dime. Be sure you have business liability insurance and pay taxes on all your "side jobs" once you take in money. Pencil this all out before you start. Legitimate businesses cost money to run.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Define custom carpentry and the range of things you are willing to build to make a living.

To me there is a difference between a custom carpenter, a cabinet maker and a furniture maker. I believe all are specialized fields though often practiced by one individual or company.

In 2004 I signed a contract with a contractor to build an empty shell for my shop. He had been teaching the carpentry program at a local college. Due to budget constraints, the carpentry program was canceled with no notice and his position was eliminated. He just formed his own contracting company and I was one of his early customers.

Last night he brought over the building permit application for me to sign to build an 8'x8' bump out on the our kitchen. He has a 3 week opening before he begins a new house he's building out of town. When I built my shop, business travel took me out of town several times and this guy never let me down in any way. I trust him. I am comfortable doing business with him. He's not the cheapest contractor, not the most expensive but my wife and I are comfortable with him. When trying to find a telephone number for his business, googling his name led me to a site where contractors are ranked. He scored in the upper 30% of all the contractors in the State of Washington. I digress. My point is? Regardless of whether he's building a new house,a shop or doing a remodel. He's flexible in what he's willing to do to keep himself and his employees busy. He does good work. He's trustworthy.

[Von Bickley]

Michael,

Have you considered combining your love of woodworking with your skills in landscaping? Perhaps you could look at high-end decks with out-door kitchens. Out-door furniture with your landscaping skills might get you started into something that would work. My son is a brick mason and has built several out-door kitchens that went over well with the right client.

[Jim Koepke]

I have one owner who builds beautiful Adirondack chairs that will outlast any of us: Ipe, stainless fasteners, but also very expensive and I don't believe he sells many of them. Then, you go to the local farmer's market and see some mom-n-pop booth selling cedar Adirondack chairs that look (and are) cheap but guess what? Folks sitting in them, mom and pop gabbing it up with shoppers, etc. I know who has the better chair but guess who probably makes more money?

There was a radio host many years ago who was a call in problem solver. One of his quotes that sticks with me:

"If you market to the classes, you will live with the masses. If you market to the masses, you will live with the classes." May be a little off, but the idea is if you are making high end product you will have a small market. If you can make a product almost everyone can afford you will sell a lot more.

jtk

[Chris Padilla]

All I can say is that communication is key with your customers.

Show up when you say you will.
Do what you say you will.
Call back promptly.
Email back promptly.
Text back promptly.

There are so many ways to communicate these days, there really is no excuse not to respond promptly in some fashion.

If you don't communicate with me, I'll find someone more responsive.

Good luck to you, Sir!!! :)

[Rick Potter]

Like Von says, stick with your custom landscaping, and it will be an open door to building custom decks or gazebos.

[Tom M King]

I may be one of the few, but carpentry is not all I do. After 41 years of experience, I have more work to do that I possibly can before whenever I decide to retire. Carpentry is not all that I do though. I built spec houses for 33 years doing all the work myself after the first one, but in 2007 I decided that the other builders must be smarter than me, so I quit building spec houses, and went full time only working on old houses. The impossible building triangle has three sides-good, fast, cheap. The saying goes that you can pick any two. With me, you only get to pick one, and it's not fast or cheap. I don't do estimates or deadlines, and only work for smart successful people. I have no idea how to tell you to start out doing this. I'm sure I couldn't have when I first started.
Here's my website, but it only shows a few jobs that I happened to have pictures of, taken by others mostly: www.HistoricHousePreservation.com (http://www.HistoricHousePreservation.com)

[John Sanford]

Leverage.

If you continue with your current college direction, your work will put you into contact with many potential clients. Rather than jumping straight into the woodworking/carpentry side of things, you could start by doing outdoor furniture and projects on the side. Doing it this way will allow you to mature as a craftsman, learn the art of business, etc. Then, as the woodworking / carpentry side grows, you can switch your focus to that, even starting your own business while doing the horticulture/landscaping/turf management on the side.

[Phil Thien]

The "decent living" aspect of the question needs to be defined.

What is a decent living for a cabinetmaker?

Why does everyone think they're worth $100k/year (minimum) these days?

[Jason Roehl]

How do you get out of the construction industry with a million bucks? Start with ten million...

With a very few exceptions, the guys I see making better-than-average money in any aspect of the trades are not the ones who produce the best product. The ones making the most money are generally the ones who are fast and cheap and have good business skills, but no real passion for their product--they don't care what they're selling or producing, as long as they're making money at it. Almost without exception, those who are driven by their product having no equal are terrible at business and marketing.

[Larry Edgerton]

How do you get out of the construction industry with a million bucks? Start with ten million...

With a very few exceptions, the guys I see making better-than-average money in any aspect of the trades are not the ones who produce the best product. The ones making the most money are generally the ones who are fast and cheap and have good business skills, but no real passion for their product--they don't care what they're selling or producing, as long as they're making money at it. Almost without exception, those who are driven by their product having no equal are terrible at business and marketing.

What he said......

I used to make a good living at it but our market area changed and in the last twenty five years the government has done evrey thing it could think of to make employees unprofitable. When I had two crews running 20 years ago I was making pretty good money and we were still doing work we could be proud of. But government mandated costs kept creeping up to where I was losing money on all my key guys that were getting paid 25.00 an hour. Then because I had 18 guys they made me pay health insurance, and I could not raise my rates enough to cover that cost. The scabs were killing me. I had to lay everyone off because I was going backwards.

At the same time they built a new city up here, Bay Harbor, and it brought a zillion Condo-Kazi contractors from the city. Bay Harbor pretty much shut down, but all those hacks that moved up here stayed, so now everyone is working for nothing. Stuff happens, but it will be years before it all evens out. I work pretty much alone now, and I make a living, but I am not getting rich.

I'll put it this way, if I had a son, I would want him to do something else for a living.

Larry

[Michael Yadfar]

The "decent living" aspect of the question needs to be defined.

What is a decent living for a cabinetmaker?

Why does everyone think they're worth $100k/year (minimum) these days?


I don't know what's decent for cabinet maker, but I consider a decent salary in general to be $35-40K. It's not going to get me a Benz, but it gets me everything I want in life plus some, call me simple. Of course I'll probably reevaluate that when I'm married

[Peter Kelly]

You might post the same question over on Woodweb dot com. Many more people doing it for a living on those forums.

[Michael Yadfar]

Getting more into detail on what I'm interested in, I'm not really talking about furniture making. If someone told me they will pay me a good price to build a table, I would do that, but not really specifically what I want. I'm talking more like general light carpentry, with jobs ranging from building sheds/garages, finishing basements, remodeling a room, restoring an old house, etc. I'm not really into painting, but I would paint a house if I got the right price. I know a lot about electric and plumbing, but I really don't play with those kind of things as I can seriously screw something up there, such as causing a flood or fire.

The biggest conflict I see, which is why I'm not interested in residential construction, is that I can't do a half job. When I do a job, I have to do it right, and while that's the proper way to do things, it's not a necessity. When I build things for my parents at home, I charge them materials but not labor, and they often ask something like "Why does it cost just as much for you to build it then it would for us to buy it at the store". Well, what I build is going to outlast what we they're going to buy at the store... And I can't imagine how much more the price would be if I did charge labor, so I completely feel how it would work in a real life situation. I do occasional side jobs with one of those quick, yet "don't worry about it, it looks fine" kind of carpenters, and it does bother me. We did a room renovation, and we ripped wood paneling of a plaster wall, and covered it with 1/4 drywall. He would often say "hurry up with those cuts, we can just fill in any mistakes". There are people willing to pay for quality work, but the market out there worries me.

I never thought of combining landscaping with carpentry. If I run my own landscaping business, I can do small side jobs on the side, and I can even do that of I work for someone else. My program even leads to careers in the landscape design field, so who knows, maybe it will end up buildimg sheds, gazebos, etc

[Brian Ashton]

I say go for it. The work can be quite enjoyable and if you can prove you're good you'll find the work but your wages will be barely liveable.

Just make sure you marry someone that has good prospects for earning a living for the both of you.

[Brian Ashton]

The "decent living" aspect of the question needs to be defined.

What is a decent living for a cabinetmaker?

Why does everyone think they're worth $100k/year (minimum) these days?

Need to define a few things. What do you mean by cabinet making. Cabinet makers aren't remotely similar to decades gone by. Today they're nothing more than trained monkeys building particle board boxes. Now if you're talking about furniture making (which traditionally were the same as cabinet makers), or joinery, or finish carpentry then you're a few rungs higher up the ladder than cabinet makers and will make a bit more and be more satisfied in your job.

As for define a decent living... You'll never make one in any of the afore mentioned trades so it's irrelevant.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I never thought of combining landscaping with carpentry. If I run my own landscaping business, I can do small side jobs on the side, and I can even do that of I work for someone else. My program even leads to careers in the landscape design field, so who knows, maybe it will end up buildimg sheds, gazebos, etcThere's a hellova lot more money in higher end decking than there is in interior remodeling.
A lot less competition also.
Everybody with a paint brush these days is a painter and everybody with a hammer is a handyman or carpenter.


We did a room renovation, and we ripped wood paneling of a plaster wall, and covered it with 1/4 drywall. He would often say "hurry up with those cuts, we can just fill in any mistakes".That doesn't necessarily make him a "bad craftsman". When you work with wood, you have to be fairly exacting. When you work with drywall, the mud is your friend and more than makes up for inaccurate cuts w/zero loss of quality.


I know a lot about electric and plumbing, but I really don't play with those kind of things as I can seriously screw something up there, such as causing a flood or fire.Wise choice....
While I can't say I know a lot about those two, I do know enough to know when I'b being taken advantage of.
IMHO - the best way to deal with parts of a project you farm out is to build up a good list of subs you can draw from.



Is it still possible to make a decent living in the custom carpentry business?
I don't know about a "decent living", but, my wife and I make a real decent retirement in that area.
We just got the keys to our fifth "project" house and are looking towards the next one in a couple three years when we get this one paid off.

[Andrew Joiner]

Getting more into detail on what I'm interested in, I'm not really talking about furniture making. If someone told me they will pay me a good price to build a table, I would do that, but not really specifically what I want.

I never thought of combining landscaping with carpentry. If I run my own landscaping business, I can do small side jobs on the side, and I can even do that of I work for someone else. My program even leads to careers in the landscape design field, so who knows, maybe it will end up buildimg sheds, gazebos, etc

I did a similar thing when I started out in 1971 at 20 years old. I quit my 2 year cabinetmaking course at a technical school to work in a big shop. I did side jobs in my garage. I learned the way industry did things and I learned how to run a business. The key thing is this gives you flexibility without so much pressure to pay the bills. I had a steady job for income and youth for extra energy to work nights. In 1973 I bid on a big job and worked full time in my own business until I retired.

I kept on good terms with my former boss and he gave me work that was profitable after he specialized in kitchens only. This is also key. Get along with everybody and be honest.

You really have a lot of opportunity by learning landscaping and carpentry. Get your feet wet in running a business before you quit your full time job!

Dealing with government regulation,insurance, and taxes can be frustrating and expensive. Pencil out the costs of doing your side jobs including permits, licenses, insurance, and taxes first.

[Jim Andrew]

I had a 30 year successful career in the building business. I took all the courses in Industrial Arts at a local college, what I should have taken was some marketing and business courses. Sales is where you make your money. I was a poor salesman, and found it more profitable dealing through realtors than doing my own sales. And I liked spec houses, as I could sell them with little dealing with the customers. All the hassles are over in a week, with a spec house. House buyers really don't know the difference between a well built house, and one that is just good enough to get by. That is why the volume guys do well. Custom home buyers want to bug you every day, and after while they can drive you nuts. And they constantly negotiate for something extra for nothing. Print up change orders, and charge them for extras.

[Larry Edgerton]

I Print up change orders, and charge them for extras.

This! This lesson cost me $156K. I looked at a design for a bonus room over a garage and it had no headroom. I talked to the customer about it and the changes we could make to make it work and still have the look we wanted on the outside with enough room for the pool table he wanted upstairs. I made a model to scale so he could see it. He liked it and said go ahead.

Here is where I made my mistake. I did not get a change order. I built it, it was awesome but at the end of the month when I presented the bill he said: "I am not going to pay you. See that garage roof, its not at all like on the print." I consulted my lawyer, and he said I would not win. The guy was a con artist, a good one, and it cost me. He went on to screw four more contractors to get his house built for little cost. Unfortunately I was the first.

Watch it out there..........