Hey Derek Is This Your Plane ?

[Winton Applegate]

I ran across this vid of Konrad Sauer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fyWnPCACV0) and found it fascinating
(I like his comments about the cap iron . . . ha, ha, couldn't help putting that in here)
anyway . . . I knew zero about him other than Derek's mention of him.
Yah, I have some real holes in my woodworking knowledge, glad I could kind of fill one of them in a bit with this vid.
Enjoy
PS:

How about posting a link?

Well OK if you want to do it the easy way. :o :)
(sorry lets rewind and try this post again)

[Jim Koepke]

Winton,

We all have some holes in our knowledge of this art/craft/hobby/pursuit.

How about posting a link?

jtk

[Kent A Bathurst]

Yeah - especially the link showing us where you are taking your new Konrad Sauer for a test drive.............

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Winton

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes3_html_5f60338d.jpg

That is indeed the video from which the above image was taken for my article on plane ergonomics/review of the Custom Veritas Planes.

Link to page: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/VeritasCustomPlanes3.html

In this one can see how low Konrad's arm is and that the direction he is pushing from is horizontal-forward and not diagonal-down.

You will find that others (mentioned in my article) do the same.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Martin Shupe]

Very interesting, Derek, as usual.

It sounds like you are saying that a low workbench is not necessarily the best. Am I correct?

Doesn't Paul Sellers advocate a taller workbench?

I am not trying to start a workbench height war, but I will be building a new one in the next year or so, and I am still trying to decide how tall to make it.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Martin

By-and-large, I do think that benches are too low - if you are working to the formula set by Chris Schwarz. I think that he based this on the work style of those using high wooden coffin smoothers and high wooden jointers, which can change the rules.

What do others think?

Regards from Perth (actually in Cape Town at present)

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

I will gladly pull planes at heights above my belt line.

If I'm pushing them, I want the plane below my belt line.
That height gives me the optimal position for my dodgy elbow.

Any flex greater than 100 degrees at the joint causes me
trouble the day after.

[Graham Haydon]

Derek, did you notice a difference in arm position at the beginning of a plane stroke and at the end? I think I finish with the pushing arm lower as the photo but begin with diagonal forward at the start. Not a very good example but here's what I mean https://youtu.be/q-Mh35H1REQ?t=1m59s

[Jim Koepke]

That height gives me the optimal position for my dodgy elbow.

This is a great reason for each bench user to determine what is best for them self. In my case a low bench can cause my back to ache after a day of planing. It is one of the reasons a tool chest on the floor isn't going to work in my shop.

Besides my back, my right shoulder and hand both give me problems. Others have mentioned physical problems as a challenge to their pursuit of woodworking. It may be possible to overcome these challenges by adjusting our bench heights or modifying tool handles.

When it comes to bench height, milage is most certainly going to vary.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Graham

Obviously, the closer the elbow to the body, the more it will bend. There is a "however" ..

Good technique starts low and stays low. This may require the user to step back at the start and step forward as they plane. Planing is not, or should not be, a static process. It is a dance.

If you look at the video of Konrad, you will see this. If you looked at videos (as I did) of Hack, Charlesworth and Klausz, amongst others, what you will see is the same dance. The arm is kept low, or the hand is gripping to push forward rather than downward.

Regard from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

If you look at the video of Konrad, you will see this. If you looked at videos (as I did) of Hack, Charlesworth and Klausz, amongst others, what you will see is the same dance. The arm is kept low, or the hand is gripping to push forward rather than downward.

Funny, but it seems kids do this naturally. It may be the height of the bench in relation to their height. It seems most of the young'uns who visit my shop start with their arms fully extended and their face close to the same level as the bench their body is extended as if they were about to start a foot race. They then work their feet for forward motion.

Maybe they know something we don't?

jtk

[Graham Haydon]

Thanks Derek

I've taken a look at a few now based on that. None as extreme as my butchery but I was wanting to remove stock and work briskly. Just a quick looks seems to show Garret Hack when working briskly the elbow comes up and then lowers.

Garret Hack https://youtu.be/f_jVcgnGPxM?t=1m48s

Also Frank Strazza seems to be comfortable having the elbow higher https://youtu.be/3LBbxC9KQBY?t=17m27s

Paul Sellers with a higher elbow at the start and then lower at the end https://youtu.be/I2lvF8-nc_Q?t=38m52s & https://youtu.be/10RPOPBTwZA?t=5m39s and that even using a taller workbench!

Someone who really fit's the bill a wonderful craftsperson https://youtu.be/x4N0KHV0n1g?t=5m6s Alan Peters.

Similar raising of the elbow by Rob Cosman https://youtu.be/MYM08CSopNA?t=10m48s

Quite a diverse bunch there who have a higher elbow at the start and a lower elbow at the end.

Revisiting your article again David seems to have the "Perfect" stance and grip, but that was to be expected!

[Winton Applegate]

each bench user to determine what is best for them self.
However
if you plan on taking heavy scrubbing cuts and or working extra hard wood then I totally recommend a bench on the low end of what you can tolerate so you can get the strength of your legs behind the cut.
I made mine on an adjustable base, adjustable by piling up junk and spacers, nothing fancy. I started quite low and kept it there. No physical problems here though. Also think about whether or not you are going to try to reach across wide surfaces and plane. I planed from the edges toward the middle on this one; sliding and rotating the far side to the near side, planed some more and rotated it back again. Still a big reach to get across it.

Derek,
I never did find out . . . is that plane Konrad is talking about in the vid your plane?

[Winton Applegate]

Belt line
I simply can not imagine that.
I just looked at my photo again and my belt line is not even in the photo.

Belt line is a bench for routers and power tools.

. . . belt line :confused:. . . belt line :( . . . for hand planing :confused: . . . hmmmmm . . . nahhhhhh . . .

I get it . . . you're making a funny right ?

PS: my kitchen counters are bellow my belt line and they are too high for really bearing down while using a coarse sharpening stone let alone jack planing. Hmmmmmm yep we live in different universes.

[Winton Applegate]

PPS: and don't forget the stock thickness. It is so nice to be able to stand a plank up on edge against a dog and plane the edge without trying to truss it up to the front of the bench. Stock can easily add four to eight inches above the bench forgetting for the moment wider planks.

[Derek Cohen]

Derek,I never did find out . . . is that plane Konrad is talking about in the vid your plane?



I wish.

My only truly premium plane is a Marcou S15 smoother. Whatever else I have is either restored (such as a Spier smoother) or built by my own (not so) little hands. LV ad LN planes are exceptional performers, and I have several of each, but price-wise they are far from the Sauers of this world.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

I am 6'1" tall and my favorite bench is 40" tall.

One thing I notice, is a lot is people planing, principally with arms, often leaning over a tail vice.

Personally I prefer to plane against a stop or dog and use my legs as much as possible. More power and more control.

When the work is long, I tuck my right elbow into my ribs and walk slowly along.

best wishes,
David

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi David. Did you enjoy listening to Konrad's view about the benefits of a cap iron. :D

Stewie;

[david charlesworth]

Stewie,

Yes, enjoyed that. The Kato & Kawai research and video suggest otherwise !!

I think that was not his own bench. There is a lot of arm in that planing.

A board that long can easily be planed by rocking back and forward with the legs, keeping elbows tucked in against ribs.

best,
David

[Winton Applegate]

Derek,
I misunderstood. I thought you owned the plane you spoke of in this post. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?227407-If-you-could-do-just-one-premium-plane&p=2374947#post2374947)

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Derek

I've taken a look at a few now based on that. None as extreme as my butchery but I was wanting to remove stock and work briskly. Just a quick looks seems to show Garret Hack when working briskly the elbow comes up and then lowers.

Garret Hack https://youtu.be/f_jVcgnGPxM?t=1m48s

Also Frank Strazza seems to be comfortable having the elbow higher https://youtu.be/3LBbxC9KQBY?t=17m27s

Paul Sellers with a higher elbow at the start and then lower at the end https://youtu.be/I2lvF8-nc_Q?t=38m52s & https://youtu.be/10RPOPBTwZA?t=5m39s and that even using a taller workbench!

Someone who really fit's the bill a wonderful craftsperson https://youtu.be/x4N0KHV0n1g?t=5m6s Alan Peters.

Similar raising of the elbow by Rob Cosman https://youtu.be/MYM08CSopNA?t=10m48s

Quite a diverse bunch there who have a higher elbow at the start and a lower elbow at the end.

Revisiting your article again David seems to have the "Perfect" stance and grip, but that was to be expected!

Hi Graham

I'll begin by noting that Garrett, in the video (which is one I used), comments "keep your body low" (or something like that).

The context of the elbow, which you refer to, is actually about the force vector on the plane handle - where one grips and pushes for maximum force. What I pointed out in my article is that the force shown by all I looked at (and it is replicated above as well) is horizontal-forward, rather than diagnonal-down. The height if the elbow can be misleading; one must look at the forearm and, especially, the wrist - if you examine this carefully, you will see that they all are square to the plane, and pushing forward from the lower, vertical section of the handle. This is brought across even more in the Alan Peters video, since he was weakened by his illness and having to find the most efficient power position he could.

As David noted, he walks along. As I mentioned in the article, ideally we keep our body low and push from the waist and buttocks, not the arms and shoulders. David made similar references.

What all this had to do with is handle design, and why a more vertical handle seems to be beneficial, especially so in the heavier planes.

Regards from Perth

Derek