Here is a look at a Martin Shaper

[Max Neu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APFiaT5ihNs
I know some guy's on here are interested/curious about Martin shapers.I was running some panels yesterday,so I thought I would share this,just to give an idea what these machines are like.This was running a piece of Hard maple at 11/16" thick,making a full cut with a dull panel raiser in one pass.I set a dime on the table,turned on the machine and ran the piece through.It will do this all day long(I have done it),this thing runs as smooth as you could ever imagine.BTW,I don't work for Martin,or sell them,just a satisfied customer.

[Keith Mathewson]

I've been thinking about replacing my Powermatic 5hp with a new shaper so have to ask- How much?

[Max Neu]

I've been thinking about replacing my Powermatic 5hp with a new shaper so have to ask- How much?
Are you sitting down?

[Keith Mathewson]

I've got a pretty good idea.

[Max Neu]

I've got a pretty good idea.
I have about $40,000 in mine,but you can spend alot more than that on one if you wanted to.But,they also make smaller,more simpler ones also,so it's worth looking into.

[Max Neu]

I am going to try that on my Unitronix just for kicks.
Yes it is!I have had this shaper for a couple of years now,and I still get excited everytime I use it.LOL
It's surprising how big this shaper is,I was a little overwhelmed when it showed up,and I had to scramble around and move other machines around to make room for it.I had a late model SCMI T130 before I bought this,and when I put the Martin by the T130,it made the T130 look like a little toy!

[Keith Mathewson]

That's slight more than I thought but not by much. I looked at the T130 but am leaning toward the martin. I looked at used martin for $25k but passed, wish I'd pulled the trigger.

[Max Neu]

That's slight more than I thought but not by much. I looked at the T130 but am leaning toward the martin. I looked at used martin for $25k but passed, wish I'd pulled the trigger.
there is a 2003 Martin shaper on woodweb for $18,900, it looks pretty clean.

[Joe Calhoon]

I would not be afraid of a clean used Martin.
The spindles on even the older ones are very stout. They use a 2 bearing system that eliminates the need for a add on top bearing.
These are out of our T90 that uses the same system for a 10" unsupported cutter head.

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We made several curved windows last fall using a 5" high Tersa head. We used brick laid laminations and shaped after a rough bandsaw cut.

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This was on the T12 which is plenty stout for this type work. The T27 Max has is more of a machine and has the added benefit of a tilt arbor and power feed arm. The feeder arm to me is one of the best feature of this type shaper.

[Martin Wasner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APFiaT5ihNs
I know some guy's on here are interested/curious about Martin shapers.I was running some panels yesterday,so I thought I would share this,just to give an idea what these machines are like.This was running a piece of Hard maple at 11/16" thick,making a full cut with a dull panel raiser in one pass.I set a dime on the table,turned on the machine and ran the piece through.It will do this all day long(I have done it),this thing runs as smooth as you could ever imagine.BTW,I don't work for Martin,or sell them,just a satisfied customer.

Is it just cutting the scoop? Have you thought about getting something that can cut the profile and sand it in a single pass?


Not sure it's worth $40k to me, but I don't like bells and whistles.

[Max Neu]

Is it just cutting the scoop? Have you thought about getting something that can cut the profile and sand it in a single pass?


Not sure it's worth $40k to me, but I don't like bells and whistles.
I would consider getting some kind of shape and sand if i did more raised panels,but I rarely make them anymore,I just happened to be making a couple when I ran that piece of scrap through.Most of the designers,decorators,customers all want flat panels,or some sort of shaker look.As often as trends change,I would be hesitant about spending alot of money for 1 particular door style.I have a Larick sanding wheel I use occasionaly if we do have a batch of raised panels to sand.Having a shaper like this is something that would be hard to live without once you own it for a while,just like any other machine that saves you time and makes your life easier.

[Max Neu]

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Joe is right about the powered feeder arm,I never realised how much of a benefit that is.As you can see in the picture,it's pretty substantial in size.It's nice to not have to monkey around with a feeder set-up for every operation,just swing it out of the way for a cutter change,and swing it back when you are ready to go.

[Joe Calhoon]

Is it just cutting the scoop? Have you thought about getting something that can cut the profile and sand it in a single pass?


Not sure it's worth $40k to me, but I don't like bells and whistles.

These smart shapers (other brands included) are wasted to set up for one or two operations. The strength is in the ability to change quickly for many operations. We have a CNC window and door machine but find the shaper because of the custom nature of our work is the most used in the shop.

One thing we found after getting ours was the biggest use is with 3 or 4 rebate and adjustable groovers. I call these our everyday joinery cutters. We have dedicated tooling as well but these cutters get used a lot. I cannot remember the last time I used a dado set in a table saw.

[peter gagliardi]

Joe is right about the best application for this type of machine. I have the predecessor to Max's T27- mine is the T26.
Small shops generally live or die by the efficiencies they adopt. These machines help the 1-2 man shop compete at some level with the bigger shops- speed, accuracy, and quick turn around.
If your going to just set it and forget it, buy the cheapest you can find.
My work involves constant custom stuff, nothing the same, so sometimes I change the shaper cutters, feeder,setting, fence setting, height and even tilt over 15-20 times a day.
It allows you the ability to simply write down your settings, and break it down mid job, then pop all parts back in, reset and go again in a fraction of the time of ordinary machines.

Let's face it, nowadays, nobody cares what it takes in most instances, but rather, how soon can I have it.
And we only get paid when product goes out the door.
Simple math in my book.
I do have the nice simple older T21 sitting behind the T26 that I get to look at while using the T26, and might get to use it someday when the T26 has a problem. It is a heck of a nice machine in its own right, but part of being in business is to try and make a living and support my family.
I can do it faster and better with a little help from technology, without going all out to a CNC machining center.

[Erik Loza]

...If your going to just set it and forget it, buy the cheapest you can find....

I can tell you that from a sales standpoint, big electronic shapers like the OP's (as nice as it is...) or comparable units from any of the other mfrs' don't exist to sell themselves. They exist to sell simpler, cheaper models. Sure, folks do buy the top-of-the-line units from time to time and yes, they add an extra dimension to productivity under the right circumstances but the reason a machine like this is at a trade show or on the showroom floor is so that the sales guy can wow you with the technology and then say, "But, if you don't need electric presets and so forth, you can get the exact same spindle/fence/whatever etc. for a third the price. How does that sound?"... And guess what the customer buys 9/10 times? It's just like the auto industry. Sure, a few guys will pay double or triple the price for that limited edition Mustang that was signed by Carroll Shelby but the vast majority will end up buying the base model, then making their own mods to it. Nothing wrong with any of that, just an observation from the other side of the table.

Erik

[Max Neu]

I agree with all the comments,everyone looks at things from a different angle.I tend to run my shop more like a small European shop,than a typical small american shop.Seems like alot of small American shops try to get by with the least amount of equipment,and try to get by with run down low tech machines,because they don't want to spend the money on nice equipment,they try to compensate with manpower.I have alway's kept manpower to a minimun,and kept my shop operating with fresh European machines.Yes,I have spent alot of money on eqipment over the years,but it's been the best decision I have made,I have put myself in a pretty good position because of it.

[Larry Edgerton]

Joe is right about the best application for this type of machine. I have the predecessor to Max's T27- mine is the T26.
Small shops generally live or die by the efficiencies they adopt. These machines help the 1-2 man shop compete at some level with the bigger shops- speed, accuracy, and quick turn around.
If your going to just set it and forget it, buy the cheapest you can find.
My work involves constant custom stuff, nothing the same, so sometimes I change the shaper cutters, feeder,setting, fence setting, height and even tilt over 15-20 times a day.
It allows you the ability to simply write down your settings, and break it down mid job, then pop all parts back in, reset and go again in a fraction of the time of ordinary machines.

Let's face it, nowadays, nobody cares what it takes in most instances, but rather, how soon can I have it.
And we only get paid when product goes out the door.
Simple math in my book.
I do have the nice simple older T21 sitting behind the T26 that I get to look at while using the T26, and might get to use it someday when the T26 has a problem. It is a heck of a nice machine in its own right, but part of being in business is to try and make a living and support my family.
I can do it faster and better with a little help from technology, without going all out to a CNC machining center.

That is why I would like to have one. My work is all over the map, and I find myself working around a setup I have in the shaper that I am going to need later. As far as the cut itself the Uni is smooth as butter, but it is old school as far as setup time. I have two spindles so I can leave two cutters set up for height but still have to move one hood back to use the other unless they are shorts that I can run sideways. As my eyes get older the prospect of just punching in some numbers sounds better and better, but I have an aversion to debt and that kind of cash is not something I have just now. Some day......

$40 K sounds like a lot, but when put in perspective its not all that bad. If I bought a $40K boat, no one would think anything of it, two nice snowmobiles are about $25k, and I don't have those either. I just don't live in a kind of area that would support that kind of investment, so I have to get by with less.

So for now I will have to live vicariously through you guys. :cool:

I did try the penny thing this morning, not a problem for my old ship anchor. At 3200#s, not much vibration.

[Martin Wasner]

I fall into the set and forget camp in theory, but not so much in execution. I've got three shapers. Two have dedicated tasks, the other does three things routinely, and miscellaneous stuff occasionally. I'm shopping hard for a couple more nice ones, but long term I'd like to have about ten in total. I think I whined about this in another shaper thread. I missed out on three older Northfield shapers. A 1955, a 1956, and a 1965. They sold on an auction in Omaha, five hours away, for a total of $1200 for all three. I didn't see them until the day after the auction had closed. *groan* I've been keeping my eyes open for double spindle shapers too. That'd be handy to have setup with left and right copers on each end.

I'm all for spendy/sweet tools if I can justify them. I just can't see me spending that kind of money on a single shaper, (moulder eventually), but I don't do much in the realm of odd either. Cabinets, so my setups don't change much. Insert heads will get pulled for different profiles, but that's about it.

I wish somebody still made commercial grade equipment. Everything has swung to either really expensive industrial stuff, or consumer grade.

[Max Neu]

larry,
I look at it like you also, I would much rather buy a nice piece of equipment, than a expensive toy that doesn't make you any money, that I probably wouldn't have time to use anyway.People don't think twice about buying a new loaded pick up truck for $50,000, but think your nuts for buying a machine for $40,000 that makes you money and will last a lifetime.

[Larry Edgerton]

I just bought a new F150. Options? Cruise and air, that's it. Paid 21K new and didn't like that.

But... I have to admit that these are lessons that I learned the hard way. When I had two crews going I drove the mandatory diesel, yata, yata, yata. Had the cars, the bikes, the boat and thought it would never end.

Then it did. At the same time I went through a bad divorce, got stuck for $156K and sold off all my toys to pay materials and lawyers. So I am not so smart, or at least not clairvoyant. Low overhead is my new mantra.....

If I was only as smart as I once thought I was.:D

[Larry Edgerton]

Martin

If I decide to buy a smart shaper I will get ahold of you. My double spindle Uni would be a great shaper for your setup.

Larry

[Rich Riddle]

I've been thinking about replacing my Powermatic 5hp with a new shaper so have to ask- How much?

At that price, just order two....one for backup.

[David Kumm]

That T21 in the background is a very nice machine for either a hobby guy or someone who likes multiple machines. The build is so good I'm always surprised that people will buy mediocre new instead. The old Martin had a great manual fence set on a table ring, high speed precision bearings, and as good of a system to swap spindles as can be had on a big shaper. They tend to be pretty reasonable in comparison to lower end new too. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

I just had a perfect example of how a smart shaper would be of worth. I had to make a couple of mitered corners for a wine cabinet, and I looked at the shaper and thought about using the lock miter, but just did not feel like struggling to get the setup dialed in. So I made the parts on the jointer and struggled to glue them up instead.

Cutters like that that are handy but a pain are why I have Martin dreams........

[Keith Weber]

Does anyone have a coupon code for 95% off Martin shapers?

[Max Neu]

Does anyone have a coupon code for 95% off Martin shapers?
No, but if you act now, you get a free Martin t-shirt with your purchase!

[Mike Heidrick]

Awesome machine Max! Thank you for sharing it. Can you measure the outside dimensions of the Martin for us. Curious how big it actually is.

Side note - I wonder why no one makes a repeatable pivoting feeder arm setup stand for a 1hp comatic or steff. Hmm.

For home sized/priced shaper guys we need to do a better job of using encoders on our elevation setups to make repeatable spindle elevation settings, angle settings too for us tilting spindle shaper guys. Fence position same thing. The micro ARM processor and feedback encoder technologies available from the same china we complain about should make this a very doable and cheap solution. While you will still turn the crank, you can make that readout as big as you want.

[James Zhu]

http://s335.photobucket.com/user/jokerbird_photo/media/P1040984_zpse1000dd4.jpg.html

See some T27 Flex pictures from AWFS someone posted. I recalled someone mentioned it is about 80k fully loaded, still cheaper than fully loaded 2015 BMW X5, and I think it is worth more than BMW X5 :)

[David Kumm]

That's Joe ( Joes apron ) at the controls. Dave

[Max Neu]

Mike,
mine measures 62"wide,72" high,60" deep.
James,
$80,000, Wow! I feel like a cheap skate, You can easily dump $100,000 in one of these after tooling.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin

If I decide to buy a smart shaper I will get ahold of you. My double spindle Uni would be a great shaper for your setup.

Larry

Just let me know.

[James Zhu]

Mike,
mine measures 62"wide,72" high,60" deep.
James,
$80,000, Wow! I feel like a cheap skate, You can easily dump $100,000 in one of these after tooling.

Ok, I found the original thread posted here, 75K range.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?206001-AWFS-Pictures-of-nifty-stuff-seriously-picture-heavy

[Joe Calhoon]

Awesome machine Max! Thank you for sharing it. Can you measure the outside dimensions of the Martin for us. Curious how big it actually is.

Side note - I wonder why no one makes a repeatable pivoting feeder arm setup stand for a 1hp comatic or steff. Hmm.

For home sized/priced shaper guys we need to do a better job of using encoders on our elevation setups to make repeatable spindle elevation settings, angle settings too for us tilting spindle shaper guys. Fence position same thing. The micro ARM processor and feedback encoder technologies available from the same china we complain about should make this a very doable and cheap solution. While you will still turn the crank, you can make that readout as big as you want.

Mike, there is one. This is a rebadged Comatic from Wegoma on the T12. They call this a smart stand. Honestly is does not work as well as the feed arm on Max's T27 but it is not bad and a far cry better than anything else on the market. The feeder itself, same as what Max has also works better than any I have used. Split removable wheels and goes against the fence for edge feeding in seconds.

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Wegoma does some things to these. I was in their booth at Fensterbau last year they have VFDs and other options on them. Not sure if you can get that direct from Comatic

[Joe Calhoon]

Ok, I found the original thread posted here, 75K range.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?206001-AWFS-Pictures-of-nifty-stuff-seriously-picture-heavy

That one had every option they offer(not needed in my opinion) It went to a large company that could never figure out how to use the technology and later went under for many reasons.

[Max Neu]

Joe,
Do you have the Martin Planer and/or jointer?I can only imagine how nice those are!

[peter gagliardi]

I've been to Joe's shop. To say his is well equipped would be laughable. I saw the planer and jointer there. I would like to experience these machines someday, but the payback on a jointer or planer is just nowhere near as good or obvious as the shaper.
It sure would be nice to machine to a digital thickness, but I have the Terminus heads in my ancient US iron, and the cut won't improve much if at all.

[Joe Calhoon]

They are nice. Especially after experiencing several marginal jointers and planers. Peter is right about the shaper for a quicker return on investment. For us the best return was the Martin T90 S4S moulder. If you are working quantities of solid wood any form of 4 side moulder will pay back quickly.

Peters shop is impressive as well. Especially the drive up, you won't find him with GPS... He has a collection of state of the art new along with many good oldies. In Colorado the good old iron is hard to come by. I enjoyed turning on the massive old machines to see what they sounded and felt like.

Here is a link to the feederhttp://www.wegoma.info/en/products/power-feeder/power-feeder-standard/power-feeder-variomatic-4n/

[Martin Wasner]

I failed. I thought I was going to be a smart guy, but I used a nickel. I'll have to try it with a dime next time. :p

Full pass on a scoop for panel raising. 5/8" panel, and walnut (which machines a whole lot easier than maple too) But I've got a whopping $2800 into this shaper with fuel, the powerfeed, $50 to have the millwrights load it on site, a new piece of 6 gauge SO cord, and plug ends. Not including the cutter though. So it adds up faster than I'd like, and it's seen a rough life before I got it, but I think that's still a heck of a deal on this much shaper.


I still wouldn't mind one of those fancy Martin's sitting in the shop. Tough pill for me to swallow though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSsozuS8nHM

[Erik Loza]

T27 they had in the booth, pre-show setup, in Vegas...

319425

The SCM L'Invincible shaper has some technology that is way above Martin but as far as build quality goes, there is Martin, and then everyone else is several rungs down the ladder. A VERY impressive machine.

Erik

[Jeff Duncan]

I like the older machines. The older SCM 160's are every bit as heavy as the older Martin T-21's….but the Martin fence while simple, is soooooo much better.

Out of the 3 the SCM cost the most up front at $1500. However I did sink a bunch more money into a full restoration. High end shapers are not holding value these days and deals can be had. I had to sell one of my Martin's when I moved my shop and barely got $3k for it after several months on the market:( I haven't run one but I'd bet the SAC is a very nice robust machine and should provide years of service.

good luck,
JeffD

[Larry Edgerton]

I tried the dime thing on my fake Martin double spindle [Unitronix]. No sweat. The hoods on the Uni are copies of the old Martins and it is worlds better than my Minimax. They are a bite to lift off and on though.......

I still want a programmable shaper if work justifies, but I doubt that it will be a Martin. They cost twice as much as my truck, a hard pill to swallow with my limited market up here in the sticks.

[Erik Loza]

I've been in a lot of shops and can honestly say that I've never seen a Martin (any Martin) in one of them. I know folks own them: Obviously, several people in this thread do. I've just never seen one in a shop and of the guys I talk to who DO have one, it always seems to be an older machine that they have either had for eons or picked up on the used market. The T27 on display at AWFS was clearly a demo machine that had been around for a while, not "built for the show". It's always been a mystery to me, who really pays that kind of money for one shaper. Rich hobbyists? Certainly not guys I talk to at the shows and I do demo the Invincible shaper. Once I answer "How much?", the pro guys just seem to walk on. Just an observation.

Erik

[peter gagliardi]

Eric,
I would be quite interested to know what SCMI has for technology that is way above the Martin? The last time I was at the Atlanta show- which was 2004 I believe, all the other manufacturers would say something to the effect of " oh, we can do what the Martin does" or "we have the same features as the Martin"
It was very obvious that they knew who was "top of the totem pole" so to speak. Then when looking at their model that was "comparable" it was quite obvious how cheesy and under engineered their product was compared to the Martin. Made our decision quite easy.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things on my Martin machines that are irksome and irritating to me as a full time user. I know the popular myth is that they are "perfection" but they really aren't.

It is quite, brutally obvious that the engineer of these machines has never used, or spoken to, let alone listened to someone who needs to make a living with these machines. The Germans are very, very closed minded in this respect.

What they are, from what I've seen is a several step up in technology, precision, and fit and finish than the rest of the pack that's out there.
I use these machines every day, and I can't imagine wanting to work with a machine that is slower, or makes my job harder, or more inefficient every single day!!
I get paid to get it done and out the door in the quickest, most efficient, highest quality, and hopefully profitable way possible. They help me do that.
Bigger companies frequently employ lesser skilled workers just by their nature- higher throughput, with a slight reduction in quality. As such, they want a basic machine that takes little training to maximize their yield, and increase their bottom line.
Anybody who has ever used a newer machine with a little technology - Martin or otherwise, would be hard pressed to want to go backwards to a more cumbersome way of working.

Also, to your point about not seeing Martins in shops, I think that is partially Martin's fault. They like to feature German shops and users, and hobbyists with enough disposable income to afford "the best" but I haven't seen them even try to attempt putting forth or feature a U.S. small well equipped professional shop that has invested heavily in their line of equipment to grow their business and/or make a living.
Until they show that their lineup has benefits for "Joe Woodworker" they will continue to occupy that area some consider "the snobby woodworker".

[Erik Loza]

Peter, my impression has always been that Martin's strong point is build quality more than technology. Programmability is nothing new and you can put Aigner equipment on any shaper of this level. But there is no other mfr. in their range that builds machinery as well.

My impression of the SCMi stuff (at least their electronic stuff) is that the build quality is adequate but since SCM's manufacturing resources are so vast, they are able to offer the same or newer technologies as competitors at a more attractive price point. For example, the T27 and Invincible shapers are very similar in spec: Two-way tilt, 6 axis programmability, flex hood, and HSK electro-spindle technology. Both machines will basically do the same thing from a production standpoint but I would venture a guess that the SCM unit is perhaps $15-$20K cheaper.

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But again, I don't know how many of these units any of us actually sell. I've said it before: The Ti5 L'invincible doesn't exist to sell Ti5 L'invincibles: It exists to sell the more basic shapers. Nobody is going to get excited by you displaying a bunch of totally basic shapers, regardless of how good they are. You need the Ferrari to get guys into the booth and then it's, "This machine does all this and costs x-much but what if you could have the same build quality, but more basic controls, for THIS much?...", Guess which one they buy?

Erik

[Max Neu]

I am in the same boat as Peter far as how I feel about Martin's,I make a living running my machines,I need the most dependable machines I can get my hands on.I think when you get into machines with computer technology,it becomes even more important to buy the best.Lower level machines are a lot less likely to support their software down the road,which could be a BIG problem.Over the years,I have figured out that it's better to "Buy Once,Cry Once",than to keep fixing/upgrading.

[Max Neu]

319459

But again, I don't know how many of these units any of us actually sell. I've said it before: The Ti5 L'invincible doesn't exist to sell Ti5 L'invincibles: It exists to sell the more basic shapers. Nobody is going to get excited by you displaying a bunch of totally basic shapers, regardless of how good they are. You need the Ferrari to get guys into the booth and then it's, "This machine does all this and costs x-much but what if you could have the same build quality, but more basic controls, for THIS much?...", Guess which one they buy?

Erik[/QUOTE]
I can see where the high end shapers could draw some people in to buy lower cost machines,but I am not sure that's why Martin developed the T27 Flex.There is not one feature on my shaper I would be willing to sell back if I could,I find it all to be very usefull and necessary for what I do.

[Erik Loza]

Max, I don't know how it is for any other mfrs. but on SCM stuff, the "software" they run on the shaper and sliding panel saw controllers is very basic. More basic than Linux. It only understands inputs at the actual control panel and the language is very basic. That's precisely so it won't crash. For a year or so, they supplied a Windows-based program with the controller and from what I heard, it was a disaster. Nothing wrong with our hardware, just the fact that it's "Windows" and, well, you know, LOL... Anyhow, the industrial controllers they fit the machines with now are pretty much foolproof.

Erik

[Mel Fulks]

I'm sure it is a good well made machine,but it looks like an office copier to me. Always used beefy pretty plain shapers with shop made fences. Can that fence be used diagonally? That allows you to get the feeder bar out of the way and run tall stuff. And I really dislike sliding tables.

[Erik Loza]

...I can see where the high end shapers could draw some people in to buy lower cost machines,but I am not sure that's why Martin developed the T27 Flex.There is not one feature on my shaper I would be willing to sell back if I could,I find it all to be very usefull and necessary for what I do.

No disagreement with you whatsoever but just will say that the shops who seem to call me are in the, "I'll buy four shapers for that money"-camp rather than, "I'll spend it all on one". Again, it's up to the buyer.

Erik

[Erik Loza]

I'm sure it is a good well made machine,but it looks like an office copier to me. Always used beefy pretty plain shapers with shop made fences. Can that fence be used diagonally? That allows you to get the feeder bar out of the way and run tall stuff. And I really dislike sliding tables.

Diagonally?

Erik

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah,for large panels and such being run vertically with the feeder bar at nearly right angle to fence height is no barrier. Last job I use it on was a large order of fence pickets with a "Dairy Queen " ice cream shape at tops. Made a holder to clamp 20 at a time and climb cut with m2 corg knives. Quicker an smoother than band sawing. But of course had to run two sides. Also used same idea to run lock mitre on panels too tall for feeder bar to clear. Useful. When you do that you have to have a table edge that allows sturdy clamping of fence and braces to keep feeder from swinging away.

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter, my impression has always been that Martin's strong point is build quality more than technology. Programmability is nothing new and you can put Aigner equipment on any shaper of this level. But there is no other mfr. in their range that builds machinery as well.

My impression of the SCMi stuff (at least their electronic stuff) is that the build quality is adequate but since SCM's manufacturing resources are so vast, they are able to offer the same or newer technologies as competitors at a more attractive price point. For example, the T27 and Invincible shapers are very similar in spec: Two-way tilt, 6 axis programmability, flex hood, and HSK electro-spindle technology. Both machines will basically do the same thing from a production standpoint but I would venture a guess that the SCM unit is perhaps $15-$20K cheaper.



But again, I don't know how many of these units any of us actually sell. I've said it before: The Ti5 L'invincible doesn't exist to sell Ti5 L'invincibles: It exists to sell the more basic shapers. Nobody is going to get excited by you displaying a bunch of totally basic shapers, regardless of how good they are. You need the Ferrari to get guys into the booth and then it's, "This machine does all this and costs x-much but what if you could have the same build quality, but more basic controls, for THIS much?...", Guess which one they buy?

Erik

Eric,
I always remember what one of the local tool reps here would say about Italian vs German Woodworking machines. He has been around for a long time, worked for SCM many years then Homag and also sold Weinig. He said the Italians will always offer more features and options for the same or less price. But the extra features will not always function properly. Where the German machines will usually preform as advertised in all functions.

I find that true, I had a shop full of SCM and Casadei early on. It is good equipment for the price but there were always little workarounds you had to do to get things right.
My gripe with SCM at the time, late 80s and early 90s was getting parts. True, SCM has always been on the cutting edge of technology but at that time they changed everything often and did not have parts for machhines 5 to 10 years old. I think things are better in that respect now.

You said "I would venture a guess that the SCM unit is perhaps $15-$20K cheaper."
A friend of mine just priced a TI 15 HSK that was in the mid 40s. It was a discounted show special. The list price for a similarly equipped Martin T 27 is about 10K higher. You can run a T27 up to almost 100K if you want to load it up with every gadget.

What shops have these? A couple local shops here have several. Next week we are installing a CNC window machine in a custom door and window shop. They have all the Martins including a T90. I probably network with 20 shops that have Martin, Panhans and Altendorf saws. The US is a small market for this type of tools. When you visit European shops they are full of top end Martin, Panhans, Hofman and Altendorf gear. Even the UK. It is true that a lot of high end hobby shops have this. Just because they can I suppose.

I do not agree the SCM invincible exists just to sell simple machines. Just about every door and window shop in Europe and many in the US I have been in have at least one programmable shaper. Many have 2. I was just in a UK shop that had 3 SCM smart shapers.

[Erik Loza]

Joe, I agree with your point on European and US shops having different priorities. Here in the US, guys would rather invest in a CNC than in classical machinery. The AWFS show was dominated by CNC machine vendors.

Erik

[Peter Quinn]

Seems there are all sorts of scenarios out there. I did a lot of interviews locally about 2 years back in job search mode, saw some fairly highly automated arrangements, and some guys with an old table saw and a beaver tooth. I landed square in between the two. They added a CNC rather than a digital shaper. We recently acquired an 80's vintage SAC tilting shaper through a creeker, came out of a large outfit in Brooklyn that was going lean-high tech, apparently they acquired 3 martin "work pods", which if I understand it correctly involves a jointer, planer, saw and CNC shaper? Sort of a self contained work station so a team can work productively without stepping on toes or waiting in lines. I totally see the utility of the digital shaper, I cant imagine it would take more than 5 years to start paying for itself versus multiple standards all in. Its hard to do the accounting before an event has happened, its hard to explain to a business owner that is paying for a resource how much time they loose annually with me and 5 other guys setting up the same door profiles and rabbit cutters over and over from scratch. Opportunity cost is also hard to calculate. How to account for all the work you couldn't do while you were doing the work you had more slowly than you could. Seems the only shops that go martin are the ones run by owners that are really expert at the machine end of things.

[Larry Edgerton]

I could definitely see the value. A lot of my setups take more time than the actual run. My problem is that my business is all over the map as I live in a sparsely populated area. Last month I built a log garage, so the shop sat. I have to justify the cost. I would like to be more shop specific, but the work is just not here.

[Erik Loza]

Peter, my feeling has always been that it's a more a reflection of the priorities of us (the consumers). Most of the ww'ing business here is tied into new housing, which typically is just mass-produced cabinetry at a budget price point, with perhaps the most simple raised panels or something like. Probably 90% spec homes. Exterior doors are metal, interior doors are hollow-core. Windows are metal or vinyl. So, the CNC makes more sense than a solid wood mfr'ing cell here in the states. In Europe, folks still desire solid wood for stuff like that.

Erik

[Jeff Duncan]

I think location may make a difference as well? In the northeast it's not at all hard to find Martin machinery in small and medium sized shops. I've seen plenty of it not counting the shops that were previous owners of my equipment. Lots of SCM T-110's in use as well. Of course I see a lot more shops with cheaper imported shapers…."different stokes for different folks";)

JeffD