Got Countermax to help cope....now I want the Aigner fence plates....$$$$!!!!

[Peter Quinn]

Been putting off getting an Aigner countermax jig for years now getting by with sleds, push blocks, etc. Had a few extra $$$ left last month from side work, decided to finally do it, will prove useful on upcoming china cabinet build in the home shop. Man, that countermax is quite a thing, don't know what else I expected from martin, its built like a tank and the clamp/spring thingy is really powerful. I've yet to actually make dust with it, can't wait. But now I want the 500MM fence plates! Somebody called me yesterday about a job I should probably say no to for my own sanity, but I'm giving it some serious consideration for the sole purpose of earning the money to.....put my kids through college? Nooooooo......well, eventually, but presently I'm seeing little Aigner fence plates floating around in my day dreams with halos on them softy whispering "Buy Us...buy us Now...). I need help.


Please tell me there is a cheaper alternative? Anybody come up with a good shop made alternative with similar functionality, or know of a ready made alternative that is more....uh...value engineered? Aka cheap. I see the Felder DIY version, I see Cantek sells a version that comes with their shapers, my shaper has 3/4" aluminum fence plates, I could machine or have them machined to accept such a system. And my shaper hood is massive with lots of travel, I can clamp any kind of fixture to it so the countermax can ride a continuous fence, or tap it for bolts. IN the short run I can just screw a piece of BB plywood to the aluminum fence plates with a cut out for the spindle at center.....but what fun is that? Not to mention annoying to make one for every coping scenario and cutter head.....eventually my labor is worth more than the Aigner plates, just not on any given day!

Here's a link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urmz_cpHsH0) for those unclear of what I'm speaking. Guy in video is coping with the countermax, and the fence plates are the Aigner's. Shapers not bad either.:rolleyes:

[Max Neu]

Get the Aigner! I love mine, plus you can add cool add on's later,it's more of a system than just a fence.Also, look at their extension tables, they are very nice, you can mount the brackets to any machine and use the tables on multiple machines, change over just takes seconds.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Help me out here - I don't understand it -

can you give a link to just the jig you are talking about?

And the fence plates - you mean that segmented, hinged, fence? Link to that item?


:confused: :confused:

EDIT: OK - found the countermax............hunting for the fence now..............

[Peter Quinn]

Help me out here - I don't understand it -

can you give a link to just the jig you are talking about?

And the fence plates - you mean that segmented, hinged, fence? Link to that item?


:confused: :confused:

EDIT: OK - found the countermax............hunting for the fence now..............

The guying the video is using the countermax for the coping right at the beginning, and the fence is the Aigner plates, with the finger things and place for clamping hold downs etc.. They have this stuff on the Aigner site and at Simantech or Felder




The whole system runs roughly $28 million dollars.....ok maybe thats exaggerating a bit....but just a bit

[Phil Thien]

That gear is undeniably cool, very well thought-out.

[John A langley]

Thanks for the link Peter , I see those in my future . new job will go well for you.

[pat warner]

"Please tell me there is a cheaper alternative? Anybody come up with a good shop made alternative with similar functionality, or know of a ready made....."
************************************************** **
Just finished this system (http://patwarner.com/images/new_router_table1.jpg) for x - cuts in aluminum, wood and plastic. Can be accessorized for zero x-cut tearout.
Accurate to .001". Not for sale, no plans, maybe just some ideas.

[Patrick Walsh]

Would someone clue me in to how much that machine cost fence, jig and shaper bits and all setup as in the video.

Im ready to poop myself so just give it to me straight.

i just purchased a Felder AD 741 and a shaper is next on my hit list. Pretty sure i wont be getting a Martin but you never know, I'm pretty patient.

[Max Neu]

Would someone clue me in to how much that machine cost fence, jig and shaper bits and all setup as in the video.

Im ready to poop myself so just give it to me straight.

i just purchased a Felder AD 741 and a shaper is next on my hit list. Pretty sure i wont be getting a Martin but you never know, I'm pretty patient.
I bought that same set up a couple of years ago, I have about $40,000 in it, not a cheap toy.

[Phil Thien]

I bought that same set up a couple of years ago, I have about $40,000 in it, not a cheap toy.

Hey Patrick, you can activate your bowels now.

I can see the value for any shop building one-offs. Obviously production, too. But where that fence shines is one-offs, it seems.

[Max Neu]

Hey Patrick, you can activate your bowels now.

I can see the value for any shop building one-offs. Obviously production, too. But where that fence shines is one-offs, it seems.
That shaper is great for production or one offs,I am just a 2 man shop (I do the woodworking,my helper sands/finishes),and I still consider it a good investment.I was able to get rid of dedicated shapers and gain more valueable floor space for more useful machines,plus accuracy went way up.

[Peter Quinn]

I bought that same set up a couple of years ago, I have about $40,000 in it, not a cheap toy.

I can sell this to my wife....."See honey....I saved us $36k by buying a used old Italian shaper and these German fence plates....and my doors look every bit as good as Fritz there in the picture!" Of course my fence plates don't set themselves, but I'm darn quick with dial calipers and a straight edge.

Man could I use a Martin at work, but it seems like you have to go all in though no? Tooling, fences, etc, the whole system. Can you program the Martin spindle for "that old freeborn set of unknown origin that has been re tipped and resharpened to now unknown diameter and gets stacked every which way each time to create different panel tongue thicknesses and such? Or does it have to be garniga inserts or other tooling with a program for it?

[Larry Edgerton]

Max

A lot of my work is on houses and I find myself setting up with offset fences quite often. How is the Aigner fence an advantage in that situation? I have been looking at them but for what they want I am contemplating buying a milling machine instead.

A decent used Bridgeport is $1500-2000 in Michigan because of the CNC stuff coupled with the automotive downturn. I could spend all my time making cool stuff then!

Peter, you have arrived on that slippery slope. _

Larry

[Max Neu]

I can sell this to my wife....."See honey....I saved us $36k by buying a used old Italian shaper and these German fence plates....and my doors look every bit as good as Fritz there in the picture!" Of course my fence plates don't set themselves, but I'm darn quick with dial calipers and a straight edge.

Man could I use a Martin at work, but it seems like you have to go all in though no? Tooling, fences, etc, the whole system. Can you program the Martin spindle for "that old freeborn set of unknown origin that has been re tipped and resharpened to now unknown diameter and gets stacked every which way each time to create different panel tongue thicknesses and such? Or does it have to be garniga inserts or other tooling with a program for it?
Peter,
You can program it do whatever you want,with any tooling (assuming you have tooling for 1 1/4" spindle),in fact,I still use some brazed cutters for occasional use.The machine doesn't care what cutter you put in it,it just saves the set-up you create,then will go back to that same set up (fence,spindle,feeder position) everytime within about .001 - .002".just name the set up,then you can pull it up from the menu at any time.It also makes quick work of one-off set ups that you don't have a program for,you can make all your adjustments with buttons,rather than kneeling down "eye balling" as you turn the knob/handle ,and make several test cuts.This machine will spoil you for life!

[Rick Potter]

Pat,

Like all of your machines, that one is a thing of beauty. You must be able to shave a whisker in half.

[Mike Goetzke]

The guying the video is using the countermax for the coping right at the beginning, and the fence is the Aigner plates, with the finger things and place for clamping hold downs etc.. They have this stuff on the Aigner site and at Simantech or Felder






The whole system runs roughly $28 million dollars.....ok maybe thats exaggerating a bit....but just a bit


FYI - For some reason my Norton software stopped the link to the video (malicious attack).


Mike

[Max Neu]

Max

A lot of my work is on houses and I find myself setting up with offset fences quite often. How is the Aigner fence an advantage in that situation? I have been looking at them but for what they want I am contemplating buying a milling machine instead.

A decent used Bridgeport is $1500-2000 in Michigan because of the CNC stuff coupled with the automotive downturn. I could spend all my time making cool stuff then!

Peter, you have arrived on that slippery slope. _

Larry
Larry,
The Aigner isn't an advantage with an offset fence,because you can't fold the bars over when the 2 fences aren't in line.If most of your work is with offset fences,then it may not be worth the money for you.Some of the work I do is with offset fences,but the majority is with a continuous fence,and that is where the Aigner shines.

[Joe Calhoon]

Please tell me there is a cheaper alternative? Anybody come up with a good shop made alternative with similar functionality, or know of a ready made alternative that is more....uh...value engineered? Aka cheap. I see the Felder DIY version, I see Cantek sells a version that comes with their shapers, my shaper has 3/4" aluminum fence plates, I could machine or have them machined to accept such a system. And my shaper hood is massive with lots of travel, I can clamp any kind of fixture to it so the countermax can ride a continuous fence, or tap it for bolts. IN the short run I can just screw a piece of BB plywood to the aluminum fence plates with a cut out for the spindle at center.....but what fun is that? Not to mention annoying to make one for every coping scenario and cutter head.....eventually my labor is worth more than the Aigner plates, just not on any given day!



Peter,
there is another fence similar to the Aigner that is less money. I think it is made in Italy. Just cannot get the brain to bring up the name. It is not near as good and does not adopt to any other accessories. The only thing better is the fingers slide and can be locked instead of swinging. This way you can make a zero clearance fence when taking the entire edge of a piece. Not a good description, I will try to dig up the info.

I had the Felder bars on another shaper. Martin and Panhans offer those as well. They work good and have a narrow bar that works better in some setups than the Aigner. The problem with this setup is it is time consuming to put on and take down. If using the aluminum fence plates the square end opposite the angled nosing is where they attach. So when they are not on you have the blunt ends of the fence toward the cutter unless the fence plates are reversed.

One thing to keep in mind with the Aigner fence is it does not play well with Freeborn type cutters because of their small diameter. We still use a lot of these cutters and if they need bridged the Aigner will take a wooden insert fence. Just keep in mind you will not be able to use the swinging bars with some of these cutters.

[Joe Calhoon]

OK, here is the link for the other fence

http://www.barke.de/web-content/eng/securomatEN.html (http://www.barke.de/web-content/eng/securomatEN.html)

[Max Neu]

Joe,
I found a way around the issue of bridging small diameter cutters.I use 1 3/4" O.D spindle collars instead of the big ones that come on the Martins.I put one below the cutter, and the rest on top, I can bridge on top and below the little Freeborn cutters.

[Joe Calhoon]

Max I have some smaller diameter spacers left over from my Weaver gear we use for this. They may not be that small. The panel raisers are what I have issues with. The 30mm shaft spacers are smaller and sometimes we put the 1 1/4 Freeborn tools on this shaft with reduction bushings. I will check and see what sizes thes are.

[Patrick Walsh]

Ok, well then, i guess i should send that thought out to pasture asap!

Looks like ill just be rounding out my shop with all Felder stuff :(

Maybe Format?

I figured maybe $12-20k plus cutters but $40k is plain nuts.

I was thinking going Martin or Altendorf when i upgrade my shop and can fit a slider. I figured that would be a $20-30k purchase and have been sweating over it. But $40k i just cant do that for many reasons.


I bought that same set up a couple of years ago, I have about $40,000 in it, not a cheap toy.

[Max Neu]

Ok, well then, i guess i should send that thought out to pasture asap!

Looks like ill just be rounding out my shop with all Felder stuff :(

Maybe Format?
Patrick,
$12-20k plus cutters but $40k is plain nuts.

I was thinking going Martin or Altendorf when i upgrade my shop and can fit a slider. I figured that would be a $20-30k purchase and have been sweating over it. But $40k i just cant do that for many reasons.
Patrick,
I have the T27 Flex model,which is their most expensive model.You can get a more basic model with a fixed spindle and without some of the other whistles and bells for alot less money.

[Peter Stahl]

FYI - For some reason my Norton software stopped the link to the video (malicious attack).


Mike

Mike,

My antivirus didn't stop it and now I keep getting pop ups that I can't stop some times. Any idea what it might be?

[Larry Edgerton]

Mike,

My antivirus didn't stop it and now I keep getting pop ups that I can't stop some times. Any idea what it might be?

Ditto. Wasn't sure where they came from.

[Larry Edgerton]

OK, here is the link for the other fence

http://www.barke.de/web-content/eng/securomatEN.html (http://www.barke.de/web-content/eng/securomatEN.html)


I have been playing with some ideas for building my own and that is sort of what I had in mind. One thing that bothers me about the concept is that if there is a catch there is the possibility of the fingers bending back into the cutter, and then all kind of ugly things could happen. I was thinking that they should be long enough that above the cutter they could be slide all the way to the other fence by sliding one finger out so the bridge was one piece. This of course would be for when the fences are on one plane. If not on one plane they could stop short at the cutter for an offset setup. I'd like to see closeups of that fence but have not been able to find any. Interesting, thanks for the link.

Peter, let me know what you think of that Contemax, I may order one.

[peter gagliardi]

Martin stuff ain't cheap. You need to be wealthy if your buying for a hobby shop, but if this is your business, and life it is easy,in my opinion, to justify it on a cost basis when you see how fast it is compared to all manual machines with no measuring systems.
You just can't wrap your head around the time savings and ease of setup until you try it. I have an older Martin T21 shaper with no fence, and no measure, for onesies and twosies, but I find it easier and quicker to break down the T26 and set back up!
Once you try one of these, it is all but impossible to go backwards. Kind of like going from a 4x24 belt sander to a 43" wide belt sander- maybe worse.
I hate to say it, but they couldn't sell them for that kind of $$$$$$$$$ if they didn't make you money.

[peter gagliardi]

Peter, I will caution you about the Countermax though. When coping short pieces, go slower, especially if cutters aren't sharp, sharp. The forces involved can overcome that powerful spring and let that little piece start to force feed into the machine! DAMHIKT.

[Larry Edgerton]

Martin stuff ain't cheap. You need to be wealthy if your buying for a hobby shop, but if this is your business, and life it is easy,in my opinion, to justify it on a cost basis when you see how fast it is compared to all manual machines with no measuring systems.
You just can't wrap your head around the time savings and ease of setup until you try it. I have an older Martin T21 shaper with no fence, and no measure, for onesies and twosies, but I find it easier and quicker to break down the T26 and set back up!
Once you try one of these, it is all but impossible to go backwards. Kind of like going from a 4x24 belt sander to a 43" wide belt sander- maybe worse.
I hate to say it, but they couldn't sell them for that kind of $$$$$$$$$ if they didn't make you money.

I was looking at the SCM version @ about $14k with the motorized hood/spindle and still may buy one. Eyes are getting old and it would be a huge help to only have to set up a cutter once. I have to recuperate from building my house for cash, but maybe in a year. I like the Martin for sure but I don't have enough of the kind of work that would pay for it here.

I have Martin dreams where I winn the lottery and have a teal colored shop.........

[Max Neu]

i have a contermax I used 1 time.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, I will caution you about the Countermax though. When coping short pieces, go slower, especially if cutters aren't sharp, sharp. The forces involved can overcome that powerful spring and let that little piece start to force feed into the machine! DAMHIKT.


Do you think PSA sand paper on the leading edge of the backer could help? Or maybe thats just enough of a shim to cause some blow out? Hope I haven't made a mistake here?

[Peter Quinn]

Martin stuff ain't cheap. You need to be wealthy if your buying for a hobby shop, but if this is your business, and life, it is easy,in my opinion, to justify it on a cost basis when you see how fast it is compared to all manual machines with no measuring systems. You just can't wrap your head around the time savings and ease of setup until you try it. .

I've had this conversation with more than one shop owner for whom I've worked, its a hard sell to say the least. I look at it on a cost basis. Whats the payment? Say you go all in and buy the system for $40K, finance it over 5 years, thats close to $500/month, which is a paycheck for a mid level employee. One guy I worked for flat out said he'd rather employee more local guys in our town and less German machinists. Why spend on tools when I can pay people? Its a complicated equation thats easy to get "instinctive" and emotional about, slightly harder to get empirical and compare apples to apples. I've yet to hear a story about a shop that went martin and regretted it. I spent all last summer on a large job making lots of doors and panels, but the shop was running multiple jobs basically on that one shaper, and I had to break down and set up for the small profile maybe 40 times? If they gave me 4 more standard shapers they would need to have bought more space to put them in, real estate has a real cost here, so thats a factor too. There is a digital height gauge on the old basic shaper, I labeled all the bushings for repeatability, clamped blocks to the back of the table and made gauge blocks to speed up set up time, it was still killing me. I thinking, when you are charging $70/hour shop rate, its not long until you've paid the note on the martin or other Class series shaper. If you are an owner/operator who wants to increase production, it might actually be a simpler equation....machine or employee. Employees are a pain, an unknown, and cost more than they add sometimes. Machines are an extension of the human capitol you already have, much more predictable, and don't require health insurance, comp, vacation schedules, emergency rooms, etc.

The other hard sell is specialization. Seems like you don't want to turn a $40K machine loose on a shop full of untrained guys, that could get expensive. Makes sense to have a specialized trained operator? Which requires lots of organization, timing, planning, and fairly good communication. Many shops have none of this. Most places I've worked with multiple employees still treat each one like an independent sub. A job hits the floor and they give it to one guy or break it into major components. You do the kitchen, I'll do the pantry, the other guy will do the library...etc. So you have three guys on the same trajectory independently, all building boxes, all making frames, all making doors, all doing layouts. And you have lines at the machines. The guys on the floor are smart enough to stagger there production, I'll make my boxes first, you make your doors first, etc. I find this approach baffling and limiting. I'd like to have one guy make all the doors, one or two guys together do all the layout and "run" that part of the job, have a box maker, a FF maker, etc. Cross train to avoid stagnation like the big factories, but don't pretend a commercial shop is some kind of bespoke furniture shack out in the woods where a craftsman with some hand planes hand scrapes boards all day.

So how do you take that leap and spend that kind of money on a given day. Given the cyclical nature of this business most shop owners around here are very fiscally conservative. Many of the "trick" shops in the area know to have all the cool toys when completely out of business or were severely diminished over the last 8 years, some have some back, some had some great bankruptcy sales. How to take that leap....or encourage it from the back seat?

[Max Neu]

Peter,
I typically choose machine over man, costs less per month, plus the machine will be paid for after a few years.Unlike a machine, an employee is just going to keep asking for more money as time goes on, plus once an employee starts gaining knowledge and becomes useful, they use that as leverage for raises.I try not to have employees too important that I can't afford to lose.The machines aren't going anywhere.

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter, there are no easy answers to what you are asking. Most of this technology comes from Europe. I have visited many European shops large and small. Compared to here most are well equipped even the small operations doing restoration work. As one owner of a historic window making shop said -“There is Ligna, but this is reality” He had a shop full of 20 to 30 year old German iron and also a couple new CNC machines.
The reason the technology is more successful for the Europeans is the school system for woodworking. When you visit their schools it is overwhelming. The most modern technology along with hand tool use and teaching the material from when the tree seeds are planted. They also put a lot of time in on the latest CAD and design programs. The knowledge these students have when entering the workforce is impressive.

Here, some shops are successful with the technology using careful planning and in house training. But for most it is a blueprint for disaster. I think it works best in small 2 to 5 man shops where the owner has a lot of hands on and control. I have seen a lot of large operations automate with the idea this will eliminate the need for skilled employees. That never works and always ends in bankruptcy.

Another challenge is bringing new technology into well-established operations that have old world skilled craftsmen. This has to be done very carefully and with a lot of education. Otherwise they will reject the technology and work against the new system.

[Max Neu]

Another point to help make a case for a new Martin shaper is the resale value of the Martins.Lets say after 5 years you decide to down size, you can sell the Martin and get alot of your money back. With an employee, you will be lucky to get a handshake.

[J.R. Rutter]

Peter,
there is another fence similar to the Aigner that is less money. I think it is made in Italy. Just cannot get the brain to bring up the name. It is not near as good and does not adopt to any other accessories. The only thing better is the fingers slide and can be locked instead of swinging. This way you can make a zero clearance fence when taking the entire edge of a piece. Not a good description, I will try to dig up the info.

I think I have that fence: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?190556-cool-shaper-fence-find

Have never mounted it, saving it for my retirement shop.

[J.R. Rutter]

I was looking at the SCM version @ about $14k with the motorized hood/spindle and still may buy one. Eyes are getting old and it would be a huge help to only have to set up a cutter once. I have to recuperate from building my house for cash, but maybe in a year. I like the Martin for sure but I don't have enough of the kind of work that would pay for it here.

I have Martin dreams where I winn the lottery and have a teal colored shop.........


The SCM is a decent runner-up. Unfortunately, they don't pop up used very often. Easy to program and use. For $14,000 a used T130 Class with 5 quick change spindles and programmable fence / height is a possibility.

[Larry Edgerton]

I forgot about that one JR. I like that setup. Even if your fences are offset you can still run the fence in to the center of the spindle on each side above the cutter and then slide them across when your fences are on one plane. The manufacturers site does not have very good pictures that I could find.