Chisel holding technique while chopping to the baseline

[Reinis Kanders]

I am kind of wandering what works for people who are really efficient at say dovetail chopping or chiseled dados or rabbets.

Does one hold the chisel by the blade or by the handle. After some experimentation I get a better shoulder lines if I hold the handle and actually see that chisel is flush with the baseline. It also is less tiring for the fingers and usually pretty fast and I do not have to switch chisel position to chop out the waste.

If I chisel by holding the blade I end up being in the front of the chisel thus not seeing if I am really flush so it ends up being undercut. On the other hand I just realized that I could also try holding by the blade while the board is rotated so that shoulder line is in front of me. I think Klausz does it that way (must be fast then).

Any thoughts?

[Kent A Bathurst]

#1 - do what you are most comfortable with, and what works best for you

#2 - I choke up on the bat - with my fingers low on the blade - to get the chisel edge "on the line" and give it a small tap with the hammer. This give me a set line to register the edge. THen, I move my hand up to the handle for the "whack away" part of the job - easier to hold the chisel in line from up there, and I can see the action-end better.

[Mike Brady]

Depends on the chisel length. I have chisels in the same width that are inches different in length. The longer the chisel the more likely I am to hold the blade. As a rule, I hold a chisel by the blade when I am striking it with a mallet, and by the handle when I am paring with it. I also tend to view a chisel from the side when I am trying to keep it in a knife wall or an incised layout line.

[Daniel Rode]

I tend to hold the chisel by the handle. Holding the chisel lower, near the tip and almost pencil like, feels better and it makes placing the tip more efficient. However, I hold it by the handle because it's the best way for me to see if it's perpendicular.

I'm still searching for the best way.

[Reinis Kanders]

Thanks for the comments. For me too it seems that I need to see the chisel and the baseline from the side. I am inclined to do what is more comfortable, but on the other hand would not want to learn bad habbits.

[Steve Voigt]

I am inclined to do what is more comfortable, but on the other hand would not want to learn bad habbits.

Yeah, that is the rub, isn't it? If you went to take violin lessons, or tennis lessons, with a good teacher, there's probably lots of things that you would do intuitively that the teacher would very quickly beat out of you, because the way that feels natural is not always the right way.

Something Warren Mickley has pointed out a number of times is that in old texts, like Roubo, you don't see pictures of anyone holding the blade. They always hold the handle.

I think that holding the handle gives better control, and as Dan said it's easier to achieve true perpendicularity. Holding the blade makes it easier to initially position the chisel, which I think is why we instinctively gravitate towards that approach. But positioning the chisel is trivial; the important thing is controlling the angle after you start banging the chisel with a mallet.

[Brian Holcombe]

I use the handle when clearing waste. For dovetail lines on a long string of dovetails, like on a cases, I will setup a beam that's definitely 90 lined up along the dovetail line and cut the last 1/16"~ usually holding the blade against the guide with my thumb after ensuring that it is registered in the knife line. I cut all the way through from the outside.

For shorter strings of dovetails such as small boxes or drawers I will use the handle only and some sort of sight to gauge 90....if it ends up slightly undercut that's fine, slightly over and I can pare it.

[david charlesworth]

You will see in some of my DVDs, that I hold the chisel low, by the blade for positioning or feeling into a gauge line, but then change to holding the handle for chopping. This gives me the best control over squareness.

I do not grip the handle as this might twist the chisel it out of a gauge line, it is more of a fingertip guide.

My gauge lines are cut deep. The edge registers positively in a deep cut.

Best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Warren Mickley]

Holding the chisel by the blade instead of the handle takes away a lot of control. You can sense this. If you hit the chisel with a mallet without holding the handle, it is prone to flopping around at the time of impact. This causes damage to the edge, like folding or chipping, because the edge is captured in the cut and sheer forces are the most damaging to the edge. It is probably worse with a hollow ground chisel because the very tip is held more securely in the cut without support from the rest of the bevel, giving tremendous leverage from the flopping handle. Even if the handle is hit perfectly straight with the mallet, the bevel of the chisel causes a moment about the axis of the edge which needs to be balanced with control of the handle.

The whole idea of good technique is that the edge is preserved. Hitting the chisel with excess force or without control (called by some whacking or bashing) is also hard on the edge. Speed results from finesse, not abuse.

[Reinis Kanders]

Thanks for the tips, really appreciate them. I think I will focus on holding by the handle, basically keep on doing what I was doing.
I was starting to question myself because I saw Klausz bang out dovetails very fast in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrAAglKLPh8

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for the tips, really appreciate them. I think I will focus on holding by the handle, basically keep on doing what I was doing.
I was starting to question myself because I saw Klausz bang out dovetails very fast in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrAAglKLPh8

We each need to learn what works best for ourselves. Frank Klausz is retired from a life of woodworking. Compared to him my few years of woodworking has me in the first grade or kindergarten.

My taps on the chisel are lighter than his. Still if my chisel is held in the gauge mark it tends to travel back due to the force of the bevel.

Recently my technique has been to use a fret saw on the waste, then pare to the line.

Find a way that is comfortable and works for you and it doesn't matter what others do.

jtk

[Robert LaPlaca]

I am kind of wandering what works for people who are really efficient at say dovetail chopping or chiseled dados or rabbets.

Does one hold the chisel by the blade or by the handle. After some experimentation I get a better shoulder lines if I hold the handle and actually see that chisel is flush with the baseline. It also is less tiring for the fingers and usually pretty fast and I do not have to switch chisel position to chop out the waste.

If I chisel by holding the blade I end up being in the front of the chisel thus not seeing if I am really flush so it ends up being undercut. On the other hand I just realized that I could also try holding by the blade while the board is rotated so that shoulder line is in front of me. I think Klausz does it that way (must be fast then).

Any thoughts?

i find holding the chisel as close to the tip of chisel as possible gives the best results for me, I also like short dovetailing chisels (I used butt chisels). This kind of makes sense, kind of the the same way one holds a pencil when writing..

I use a carving mallet to assist with chopping the waste, staying away from the baseline, then making a paring vee cut to the baseline, it is then safer to chop closer to the baseline as most of the waste material has been removed that would push the chisel past the baseline..

[Brian Holcombe]

Warren makes a good point about using the mallet as well, I would describe my approach as non-violent. I started off using a dovetail mallet for dovetails but eventually moved to something much more like a jointers mallet because I could take a lighter swing and maintain a much better control over the process while making good progress through the cut.

[keith wootton]

i have well squared block that i hold to the back of the chisel after carefully registering the chisel in incised line. i can whack away with mallet and the chisel will cut very square, especially if most of the waste has been sawn away. working from both sides, the two cuts line up very well and i never feel the need to undercut. and to make it even easier, i recently mortised a hole in my block very near the surface, and added a strong magnet that pretty well holds the block to the chisel if you are fiddling with alignment.

keith

[Peter Evans]

Just a note, the advice is for using a mallet; if paring I use one hand on the blade, and one on the handle and push with my body. Gives good control.

[Derek Cohen]

I am kind of wandering what works for people who are really efficient at say dovetail chopping or chiseled dados or rabbets.

Does one hold the chisel by the blade or by the handle. After some experimentation I get a better shoulder lines if I hold the handle and actually see that chisel is flush with the baseline. It also is less tiring for the fingers and usually pretty fast and I do not have to switch chisel position to chop out the waste.

If I chisel by holding the blade I end up being in the front of the chisel thus not seeing if I am really flush so it ends up being undercut. On the other hand I just realized that I could also try holding by the blade while the board is rotated so that shoulder line is in front of me. I think Klausz does it that way (must be fast then).

Any thoughts?

What I find is that fingers closer to the tip of the blade creates more control, while a hand on the handle add to power.

So, for careful undercutting, even with a paring chisel, my fingers are close to the work ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/DovetailBaselines_html_38c6e9c.jpg


Japanese bench chisels are about using a gennou to create control. Steadying the chisel is done with fingers close to the work. Dovetailing is a controlled, thin slice.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KoyamaichiChisels_html_m24c33744.jpg

By contrast, morticing is a power action with 1/8" chips - one hand on the handle of an English Oval Bolstered chisel which wacking with a heavy mallet. Similarly, if a Japanese slick (paring chisel) is used, power comes from bringing the shoulders into play via hands on the handle, not the blade.

Your mileage may vary.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Winton Applegate]

For softer wood can't beat this guy
Twenty three minutes in to this vid (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzFVtp42DqY)

For harder wood I saw near the line and push the chisel with my shoulder similar to Derek's post.
I never said I was fast though.
Frank is fast.

[jamie shard]

Still if my chisel is held in the gauge mark it tends to travel back due to the force of the bevel.

I think accounting for the movement of the chisel is one of the hardest things to do when learning dovetails. It almost doesn't matter what method is used for clearing away most of the waste - as long as you are not initially pounding in the gauge mark. Klaus puts the chisel well in front of the gauge line and pounds, which pushes a bit of the wood backward to the gauge line. This takes a lot of experience to know how far in front of the line to place the chisel. So he is "chopping out waste" and "paring to the line" in a single step.

Many others will bandsaw or coping saw away the bulk of the waste first. Only then, when there is just a little bit of wood to slice away, do you put the chisel in the gauge line. Then either using a paring block, or a square, or your eye to find square, you can tap away the last bit of wood in front of the line. The chisel won't dive off of 90 degrees because there isn't much material on the bevel side.

One thing that amazes me is how many good cabinet makers use paring blocks and/or squares for sighting during their work. What matters is the end result. No bonus points for doing it the hardest way.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

What matters is the end result. No bonus points for doing it the hardest way.

But I had almost saved enough for the folding chair and the beer cooler! What am I going to with all these points now?

[Winton Applegate]

I think accounting for the movement of the chisel is one of the hardest things to do when learning dovetails. It almost doesn't matter what method is used for clearing away most of the waste - as long as you are not initially pounding in the gauge mark. Klaus puts the chisel well in front of the gauge line and pounds, which pushes a bit of the wood backward to the gauge line. This takes a lot of experience to know how far in front of the line to place the chisel. So he is "chopping out waste" and "paring to the line" in a single step.

NOPE

Jamie,
With all due respect . . . and sugar on top . . .

Please . . . study Klausz before you describe his methods.
I quote him from the YouTube I posted : “Put the chisel INTO the marking gauge line and tap it . . . tap it very gently.”


He then angles the chisel and takes out a bite beside the line to remove a chip of wood before taking a serious hit down AGAIN on the line.

HIS WHOLE POINT IS IT IS AN EASY PRACTICALLY BRAINLESS WAY TO DO IT. NO GREAT EXPERIENCE NEEDED.
Just do what he says and anybody can get great results.
IN SOFT WOOD.
the coping saw or router method that Derek describes is the way to go for hard, hard stuff. The chip and pound takes too long in the harder stuff. I think Klausz would resort to his bow saw that he mentions in the video.

[jamie shard]

Klaus has a lot of info out there. I didn't watch your video link. Here's the direct quote from Franz Klaus VHS "Dovetail a Drawer":

"You notice I hold the chisel by the bottom of the blade, this way I can position it, roll it where I want it, just a hair beyond the marking gauge line, put it down and tap it, and the chisel comes back to the line where I want it."

Either way works of course, it's all about knowing how much force the wood can take before the scribe line moves. Hard "taps" the chisel needs to be beyond the scribe line, really gentle taps can be in the scribe line.

[Winton Applegate]

Jamie,

just a hair beyond the marking gauge line
I'll buy that
Fair enough.
For what it's worth, in my vid he recommends as wide a chisel as will fit. In the VHS Dovetail A Drawer he uses a narrower chisel and "walks" it along the gauge line so maybe the narrower chisel has more potential to ding up the gauge line.

Nice talking with you,
Winton

[jamie shard]

Same here, no worries.

[John Crawford]

Still if my chisel is held in the gauge mark it tends to travel back due to the force of the bevel.

Hope this isn't veering off topic--I think it is in the spirit of the original post.

Often when I get my chisel into the gauge mark, with just a tiny bit of wood remaining, I line it up plumb, but when I strike the chisel rather than staying in the line or traveling back to the gauge line, the chisel travels down a bit, but then goes forward away from the wall and into the void....

Perhaps impossible to tell without seeing, but does anyone have thoughts on what technique problems might be causing this?

[Winton Applegate]

when I strike the chisel rather than staying in the line or traveling back to the gauge line, the chisel travels down a bit, but then goes forward away from the wall and into the void....


Chisel back not flat up near the edge; perhaps from stropping.
Another way to go is to stand the board up in the vise and pair across the grain with the flat back of the chisel parallel with the floor. Gravity might help a little here and as I said way earlier I push the chisel to pare back to the line (in the harder woods). Either I have the board flat on the bench and pair down pushing with the end of the chisel, often a longer chisel, against my shoulder or I pare horizontal pushing with my legs.

You can compensate for the moving away from the line by ever so slightly angling the chisel into the work AND pairing from both sides so you don't run off the back side and take some fibers out of the back.

If you are still getting the rising off the end grain thing happening I suppose you could experiment with leaving a slight wire edge on the back side. I don't do that but I get pretty obsessive with having flat back blades and not stropping the back except maybe on maple. Carving chisels are a different story.

I hope some of that made some kind of sense.

PS: the Japanese long handled paring chisels (http://www.japanwoodworker.com/Product/156342/1-Paring-Chisel---Matsumura.aspx) with their very hard blades and thin blades are a pleasure to use this way . . . . no hammer needed.

[Winton Applegate]

In my attempt to find an example of some one using a long handled Japanese paring chisel; pushing it rather than hammering it I came across this video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug_1KJDsPwk&list=PLVsC31eRH3xchXpU58-4D3rwix240j-VD)
Not what I was searching for I am afraid but . . .

Quite refreshing and pleasant to watch. Be sure to go to the end to see her pushing the drawers into the finished work. Talk about your working to thousandths of an inch tolerance.

Makes one kind of rethink the need for that big old five hundred pound western work bench to doesn’t it ?

[jamie shard]

Hope this isn't veering off topic--I think it is in the spirit of the original post.

Often when I get my chisel into the gauge mark, with just a tiny bit of wood remaining, I line it up plumb, but when I strike the chisel rather than staying in the line or traveling back to the gauge line, the chisel travels down a bit, but then goes forward away from the wall and into the void....

Perhaps impossible to tell without seeing, but does anyone have thoughts on what technique problems might be causing this?

I agree with Winton, could be a chisel back that isn't lapped perfectly flat (just barely concave works too). It could be a slightly dull chisel, too.

[Steve Voigt]

Often when I get my chisel into the gauge mark, with just a tiny bit of wood remaining, I line it up plumb, but when I strike the chisel rather than staying in the line or traveling back to the gauge line, the chisel travels down a bit, but then goes forward away from the wall and into the void....

Perhaps impossible to tell without seeing, but does anyone have thoughts on what technique problems might be causing this?

When you are chopping to a line and you have a lot of waste on the bevel side, it puts pressure on the chisel and causes it to move back from the line. Most of this thread is about solutions to that problem.

What you are describing is the opposite problem. If there is very little waste, there is nothing to put back pressure on the chisel and keep you in the cut. So the first thing is, if you are chopping, try removing a 16th rather than a 32nd or 64th. The second thing is, for thin cuts try paring rather than chopping. But even there, a slightly thicker cut will probably make it easier. If you have a razor-sharp chisel, a flat back, and good technique, you should be able to pare off tissue-thin shavings, but if any of those three things is lacking, it will help to take thicker cuts until you gain more skill and confidence.