A few questions about turning tools

[Mike Holbrook]

I am about to buy a lathe, maybe a Grizzly G0766 or a Nova DVR. I have spent a decade or two developing reasonable sharpening skills and I have grinders, CBN wheels, Japanese stones, diamond plates. I am about to buy a basic set of wood turning tools.

Drew Langsner at Country Workshops suggested four turning tools to get started: roughing gouge, finishing/spindle gouge, parting tool and a skew chisel.Drew's suggestions would reflect mostly the needs of a person building Windsor and Welsh stick chairs. I have a good supply of green wood on the property I live on and see myself not only building chairs but turning some bowls, plates and platers. I would like to buy good tools, not learner tools. I believe I have the sharpening skills and properly outfitted grinder to care for them now. I know Henry Taylor and D-Way make good tools although the selection at D-Way seems sort of specialized to me. Drew gave me a Packard Woodworks catalogue which lists a bunch of tools made by famous/infamous turners... I am looking for a quality steel that can hold an edge for a reasonably long time.

I have seen a few posts that seem to suggest a large bowl gouge can substitute for a roughing gouge. I think bowl gouges are typically designed from a solid bar of steel where roughing gouges are a bent sheet of steel? I am wondering if a good bowl gouge or two might work for me in place of a roughing gouge? I am also a little foggy on whether or not there are significant differences between detail gouges, spindle gouges and smaller bowl gouges? I suspect I need one or two from this category too. I plan to buy a diamond shaped parting tool and some sort of scraper and or skew chisel. I see a myriad of wood handle lengths and some manufacturers sell handles separately. I saw one post that suggested a new person buy tools without handles and use them to make tool handles. Are handle lengths, materials and styles largely a matter of personal preference or are there significant advantages/disadvantages to all these handle types? Would it make sense to start out buying tools without handles and a couple interchangeable handles and then make my own? Suggestions on manufacturers and tool types would be greatly appreciated.

[Dale Gillaspy]

I would probably add a bowl gouge instead of taking away the roughing gouge. Yes, a bowl gouge can substitute for a spindle roughing gouge, but not as efficiently. However, the reverse is not true. A spindle roughing gouge is good for just that, spindles only. Bad things can happen when you attempt to use it on face/cross grain wood.

[Dave Cullen]

A spindle roughing gouge, at least 1" in HSS. I have a cheap Benjamin's Best from PSI and it's a great tool.
Spindle detail gouge, 3/8" is a good size. Mine is by Cindy Drozda (Sorby) and is a superb tool.
A skew chisel, 1" or better. I like the flat ones, not oval (personal preference).
Diamond point parting tool.
A 1/2 inch bowl gouge - D-Way and Doug Thompson make nice ones. I get mine without handles and turn my own.

Handle length and styles are personal, but in general a bowl gouge handle is longer than a spindle tool. You need the leverage when reaching into the bottom of a bowl.

[Scott Hackler]

Definitely consider bowl gouges. My go to tool is a 1/2" bowl gouge (or marked 3/8" in the UK). I do 80% of everything with that tool. I also have a 5/8" bowl gouge that I use for roughing and a monster 1 1/4" roughing gouge for the big stuff. Skews have the hardest learning curve but once mastered, they are the choice tool for spindle work. I haven't taken the time to learn to use my skews....

I would add a detail gouge and a parting tool.

Do not attempt to hollow out a bowl with a flat tang spindle gouge. They WILL eventually break. I know that first hand (lessons from the self taught).

Doug Thompson at Thompson Lathe Tools is my first choice. 1) because he makes and sells quality tools at a reasonable price and 2) Doug is a friend and just a heck of a good person

I don't own any D-Way tools but they constantly get good reviews. I still own and use a bunch of full sized Sorby and still like them a lot, but I wish the steel would hold an edge as long as the Thompsons.

Good luck and ask all the questions you need. The Creek is an excellent resource to learn more about woodturning.

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for the input guys. I was just watching Cindy Drozda's video on making handles for turning tools. I also have the PDF for Peter Galbert's new chairmaking book. Peter's four top choices for chair making tools are: 1) 3/4" roughing gouge 2) 1/8" diamond parting tool 3) 3/4" oval skew 4) 3/8" detail gouge. I think I will check out Cindy's web site, apparently she makes tools that the owner can make handles for, which seems like a good way to get some practice and wind up with something useful.

Scot posted while I was posting, thanks Scott. I noted reading further in Galbert's book that he roughs out chair legs with a 2" roughing gouge, more like what Drew Lagsner had at the class I just attended. It seemed odd to me that Dave at D-Way only offers a 1/2" roughing tool. Looking at the tool on his page it actually looks like it is made from a solid piece of steel which according to the guy I talked to at WoodCraft actually makes it a bowl gouge. I think Scott is giving me the reason why.

[Roger Chandler]

You say you have the sharpening skills ...........being a beginner, do you have a gouge sharpening system like the Oneway Wolverine system? It is the standard that the great majority of turners use. Sharpening with a CBN wheel is a very good way to go, but you also need the jigs to get the correct grinds on gouges unless you are planning to free-hand sharpen......it can be done with a platform, but the most consistent way, especially for a new turner is to get the Wolverine system........it works all the time, every time, and will allow you to get better results than being all over the place with angles and such, as those will affect your success and the quality of the items you get off the lathe.

Things to consider.........yep, this turning thing has a lot of specialty and specific tools that are needed! My apologies to your wallet! :eek:

http://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/p/93/817/Oneway-Wolverine-Sharpening-System-4-Piece-Set

[Faust M. Ruggiero]

Most manufacturers make unhandled tools. The trend these days is to buy handles separately and the cutting tool is held in with set screws of collet. I like them because removing the tool for sharpening makes that process easier.

[Reed Gray]

Well, one can never have too many tools... There are spindle roughing gouges from both Doug and Dave (D Way) that are machined from solid bar stock, and I think 3/4 inch. If I was doing a lot of spindle roughing, I would want some thing bigger, but I prefer bigger and heavier tools. I did Concrete work for too many hears, and prefer over built to under built. I am not positive, but I think Cindy Drozda's tools are from Stuart Batty, or Doug, but I am fairly sure they are the same V 10 metal. The oval skew is a tool that some love and some hate. I think by far, most prefer the flat bar skew chisels. They don't rock as you turn, and are easier to sharpen. A bowl gouge can do a lot of things, and is a really good tool to have on hand, especially when farther down the road you get curious about bowls. Same with scrapers. Both are pretty versatile. A detail gouge for beads and coves, and getting into tiny places. A parting tool, plus a bedan or sizing tool which has a square shaft and is wider than the standard parting tool. For handles, I prefer straight wood handles, large diameter, and no bumps or humps in them. The advantage to metal tools, and now some collets for the wood handles is being able to take the cutting part of the tool out for travel, or for platform/free hand sharpening. A good chuck can come in handy on spindles tool.

robo hippy

[Thom Sturgill]

I would agree - add a bowl gouge rather than substitute even though I posted about using a bowl gouge. I know experienced turners who normally do ALL roughing with a bowl gouge because it is what is at hand. D-Way and Thompson both make milled rather than forged SRGs - naturally in smaller sizes, Doug has a 1 1/4" and Dave's is about 3/4".

As to the difference between gouge types (I think this ought to be a sticky) classic English and European (German) spindle gouges are also forged. These gouges are measured edge to edge and English manufactured milled gouges are also. American milled gouges are sold based on the bar stock diameter so an English 1/4" gouge is about the same size as an American 3/8" gouge. To confuse matters more American vendors *sometimes* sell the English gouges marked as if they are American.

Modern spindle gouges have a round flute that is cut to a depth of half the diameter of the bar. Typically ground at an angle between 35-45 degrees.

A 'true' detail gouge has a shallower flute and is typically ground 25-35 degrees. Some grind the above tool to that angle and call it a detail gouge.

A modern bowl gouge can have a V, U, or parabolic flute that is somewhere around half the depth of the bar. Often ground anywhere from 40-75 degrees.

Another issue you raised is steel. First not all HSS are equal. Even if M2 is specified there can be considerable differences in how the heat treating is done.

Jerry Glaser introduced the turning world to crucible steels and GlaserHitec sells a line of gouges with as high as 15% vanadium.
Dave at D-Way and Carter and Sons both use M42 which adds some vanadium but mainly Cobalt to provide better wear resistance. Doug Thompson uses steel with a higher vanadium content (about 11-12 percent I believe.)

IMNSHO, crucible steel require that CBN wheel you said that you have. M2 does not.

[Mike Holbrook]

Roger, I am currently using a modified Lee Valley sliding tool rest and a SB Tools, Large Round Platform bought from Woodworkers Emporium. I also have the SB Tools Angle gauge that is designed to help set the various angles for woodturning bevels. I am aware of the Wolverine system and tried to contact Robo Hippy about a tool rest that I think he stopped offering for sale. I am still playing around with my tool rests, in terms of working with curved edges. I sharpen scorps, drawknives, travishers, spokeshaves, adzes, axes, 6-8" radius plane blades, all sorts of gouges....I think the profiles on the gouges and curved blade hand tools I use are relatively similar to turning tools. I like sharpening by hand when I can figure out good/fast ways to do it. If it turns out I need the Wolverine system I will figure out how to mount one someplace. I have a 120 grit D-Way CBN wheel and a 220 grit "4 in 1" CBN from WoodTurner's Wonders mounted on a Delta Variable speed grinder. I have round, triangle and flat ceramic stones and round and oval Ez-Lap sharpening steels with diamonds. I have Diamond plates as well. I am new to turning but not to sharpening woodworking tools in many different shapes.

Great info. Thom. I will look into the vendors you mention.

[Scott Hackler]

Reed (robo hippy) still makes and sells the RoboRest. I bought one while at the symposium in Phoenix and I really like it. Much better than the factory Wolverine flat rest.

[Mike Holbrook]

Great Scott, is there a web site? I could not find him on SMC a ways back, but he is obviously posting on threads here now and so I have the real name as well. Dave at D-Way suggested I look him up. I had asked Dave about rests when I ordered my CBN wheel. Maybe he was just out of stock at that time. I think he hand makes his rest. I have tracking dogs, I will track him down ;-)

[Scott Hackler]

Just send a Private Message to Reed Gray and he should get back to you soon.

[Lee Reep]

Scott is right about the difficulty in mastering the skew. My heart would race every time I'd pick up my skew, after having catches at the seemingly least likely time while turning. I stumbled upon this video by Brendan Stemp. It really helped me. I have mostly done pens, and then branched out to other "spindles" -- tool handles, pepper mills, etc. I want to try making bowls, so I bought a bowl gouge (unhandled of course -- I like to make spindles!), and I made this handle and used the skew exclusively, except to turn down the brass ferrule, For that, I used a scraper. In the past, I'd try to use the skew, then switch to a scraper when I got nervous (!), or maybe use a carbide tool. But there is nothing like the smooth finish you get with a skew.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMIwqFDMIhA


310589 (http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=brendan+stemp&FORM=VIRE2#view=detail&mid=30293C313EA7466B0C8D30293C313EA7466B0C8D)

[Lee Reep]

[...]
It seemed odd to me that Dave at D-Way only offers a 1/2" roughing tool. Looking at the tool on his page it actually looks like it is made from a solid piece of steel which according to the guy I talked to at WoodCraft actually makes it a bowl gouge. I think Scott is giving me the reason why.

Mike,

I jsut received a spindle gouge and parting tool from D-Way Tools, so I noticed your comment about the roughing gouge. It is actually slightly over 3/4" (.767"). The shank is turned down to 1/2" to fit a 1/2" socket. I was considering it, but decided I'd already spent enough this month (I also have a Festool Domino on its way ...).

The spindle gouge and parting tool from D-Way are very nice. I've made my own very narrow parting tools but decided to give his a try. I am starting to replace my starter tools with quality ones. The gouge is scary sharp from Dave -- ready to use. I've not turned anything with them yet because I need to make handles for them.

[Mike Holbrook]

Lee, I watched that video and several others on skews, plus I got a little lesson on it at a class a few weeks ago. It seems the issue is maintaining a 45 degree angle and doing an up & in approach. Dave at D-Way has a good video on it.

I have been tempted to order a few turning tools from D-way but two things have held me back. One is the big nut head on the device Dave uses to hold blades in his handles. That nut looks like it might be in the way? The other problem I am having is Dave does not offer all the basic tool types I have been looking for, or the ones he offers are made quite differently.

I would like to buy removable blade tools. D-Way, Drozda, Jerry Glaser and others offer this style tool. I am studying up on the attachment systems available. I am thinking I will buy 4-6 tools to start and probably a single handle from the same vendor. I would like to turn some of my own handles. I know Drozda makes a connecting device for removable blade tools that should be easy to make handles to fit.

I am also trying to figure out the steals and treating methods to determine the best kind for me. Drozda breaks it down to M42, V10 and V15, which I imagine is overly simplified. She does mention that the very hard steals like V15 can be brittle. I am familiar with this issue and concerned that a brittle tool might be a problem on a tool that will take the abuse a turning tool does. D-Way mentions 67-68 R for their tools which sounds very high to me. Most of the "super" powdered steals for knives, plane blades...tend to max out around 64R in my experience.

[David Bassett]

Mike, I think you're over thinking this and probably a little confused about some of the details. You don't need to decide on your complete set of tools upfront. Most of us experiment and develop preferences that may be different than what you will prefer. Starting with the two or three key tools for your first project would allow you to feel the grip, weight, & balance of one type of handle and practice sharpening a couple profiles and steel. Then you'll have more information when it is time for additional tools for subsequent projects.

As far as specifics, you mention the "knob" on the D-Way handle. Dave's handles don't come with a knob, just set screws like the other brands, so he must be using the accessory he sells to allow changing tool bits without a hex key in the video. Strictly your choice. You can mix and match tools to handles or make your own wooden handles, either interchangeable with the ferrules like Cindy Drozda, Oneway, & others sell, or fixed with a bit of epoxy. (I just checked, every unhandled tool I have fits in every interchangeable handle, of the same size, I have. That's several Thompson & D-Way tools in Thompson, D-Way, & Hurricane handles. All are fixed by set screws.)

I don't think you can go wrong with a Thompson tool. They are carefully made from great steel and very well finished. I also like the feel of his handles, but YMMV. D-Way tools are also a safe bet. They are carefully made, from great steel (though maybe not quite as good on paper), and are finished to an even higher standard. His handles are a different design, comfortable to just hold, but I don't have time at the lathe with them yet. Both of these companies are small and run by individuals that have shown they are involved with and care about the turning community. You have other choices, heck, I think EWT tools have there place, (but you don't sound like their audience.) You'll find many turners suggesting cheaper tools to start, so you can practice sharpening, different grinds, etc. without a major investment. I see their point, but I haven't gone that way because there are too many reports of substandard heat-treatment and really bad steel slipping through those factories. Some of the more reputable brands, using M2, seem to take care of their heat-treatment, but really aren't that much cheaper (ignoring the cost of the reusable handle.), but might be best for specialty or infrequent tools. E.g. I have a Sorby diamond parting tool, because it was on sale and I don't see it being used enough I need the extra tough steel. (Besides, it's easy to sharpen & touch up. :-) )

Good luck & have fun.

[Reed Gray]

Dave does have a large twist knob, about 1 1/4 diameter to go with his handles now. I have had it for over a year. The handle is a bit heavy for my taste, but it is great for trying to teach platform sharpening. Many have trouble dealing with keeping a handled tool flat on the rest. Taking the tool out of the shaft makes it easier. I was wondering if it would get in the way when turning, but haven't found that it does. I would suggest having it pointing up rather than to the side, but even there, it shouldn't be a problem unless your tool is sharpened down to a tiny nub.

robo hippy

[Mike Holbrook]

Great info. David and Reed. I like to ask lots of dumb questions because I get this great discussion. I was hoping to get comments on the D-Way handles and attachment system and got just what I was looking for. Sounds like one can use set screws or a twist knob with D-Way tools which is what I needed to understand. Great to hear that many of the tools and handles work interchangeably Dave. I was wondering about that.

I have Thompson book marked and found the products there interesting. Some are apparently designed such that the purchaser grinds the shape and bevel themselves. Thompson and D-Way appear to be well thought of, are the Drozda tools similar? I suspect I could use tools from these three vendors in the same handle(s) or turn handles that all three would fit in?

I like the idea of the removable tool handles. I think it will make them easier to sharpen and more versatile. It should also make it easier to carry a selection of tools in a single, smaller tool roll. I have chisel rolls, spokeshave rolls, gouge rolls...It makes it easier to move tools between the different rooms and buildings I work in.

Sounds like Robo had the same initial concern I did with the big knob on the D-Way tools, glad to hear he has not found it to be an issue.

I got a PM from a fellow Creeker who apparently lives just 13 m. from me. I am hoping to get to see his Jet 1642 and his selection of tools before I buy anything. Always better to see these tools in action before buying.

[David Bassett]

... I have Thompson book marked and found the products there interesting. Some are apparently designed such that the purchaser grinds the shape and bevel themselves. Thompson and D-Way appear to be well thought of, are the Drozda tools similar? I suspect I could use tools from these three vendors in the same handle(s) or turn handles that all three would fit in?....

You can, and I'm told will, reshape tools to your taste no matter the vendor. (I'm careful to replicate the factory grinds right now. I'm not brave enough to deviate. Yet....) But, yes, Doug lists heat treated rods you need to grind yourself.

I actually have a tab open to Cindy Drozda's gouges & tools from before I saw this thread. I'm thinking of her tools as more specialized rather than general purpose. But I'm infatuated with the slender finials she does and if the tools will help, maybe....

BTW- I swear I read her say Doug Thompson makes her 10V tools for her. (She may do the final grind?) But I can't find that on her site. The aluminum handles she sells have Doug's label on them in the photo. She does mention her M2 tools are made by Henry Taylor to her design. I know Doug make tools designed by others, some he sells and others are available from the original designer only. He doesn't list himself as a Drozda supplier.



... I like the idea of the removable tool handles. I think it will make them easier to sharpen and more versatile. It should also make it easier to carry a selection of tools in a single, smaller tool roll. I have chisel rolls, spokeshave rolls, gouge rolls...It makes it easier to move tools between the different rooms and buildings I work in....

I'm still arguing with myself. Interchangeable handles are more money (up front) and I hate changing the tools in a handle at the lathe, but it is really nice to not have to dodge a fixed handle when at the grinding wheel. Also, if you make wood handles for interchange tools, the ferrule with set screws adds cost and makes the top of the handle "clunky", which loses part of what I like about wood handles. (At the rate I'm going I'll end up with a full set of tools each way and shift back and forth all the time. Well, it is a hobby and collecting tools counts. Sorta'?)

[Reed Gray]

99.99% of us are card carrying members (well, okay, many of us have lost our cards in the shavings) of Wood-aholics Anonymous, and Tool-aholics Anonymous.... Doug does make a couple of signature tools that he does not carry but made to specs for some turners. Lyle Jamieson is one, and I am pretty sure Cindy is another. I also prefer the wood handles, and I think there are a couple of collett type chucks for them, Cindy has one style, and Jimmy Clewes has another and I think Doug carries those, but not positive. I am planning on being down in Atlanta next year for the Symposium there. I probably won't have a lathe in the booth, but will have some of my toys...

robo hippy