Woodturning Deaths?

[Russell Neyman]

Somehow, a flurry of dialogue over "the inherent possibility of serious injury" in Woodturning. Okay, okay, I understand the need for eye and lung protection, but as long as we stay clear of the line of fire (the area directly opposite the axis of the wood) I think we're safer than riding in a car.

How many woodturning deaths actually occur each year? I searched the Internet and could only find one or two. Yes, we have to use common sense and work smart, but I don't think we need to live in fear.

[Thom Sturgill]

While I agree not many deaths, I would consider more than just eye and lung and get a good face shield that is impact rated. (Un)common sense can prevent or lessen most accidents, unfortunately it only takes an instant of inattention to have serious results. Preventative issues like moving the off switch, or adding a new one help too.

I tried moving mine, but the switch messed up and I had to put back the original. I now routinely turn off the machine with the butt end of my gouge when working from the rear of the machine rather than crossing the 'line of fire' with my body.

[Bill Bukovec]

Might not be a bad way to go, if it happens on your 100th birthday.

[Justin Stephen]

The only I can remember hearing about was that female turner a couple of three years ago. It would seem to me that, for the way most people turn, the risk of actual death is very low, borderline "fluke" territory. However, the risk of serious injury (loss of an eye, head trauma, etc.) is very high.

[Ralph Lindberg]

The only I can remember hearing about was that female turner a couple of three years ago. It would seem to me that, for the way most people turn, the risk of actual death is very low, borderline "fluke" territory. However, the risk of serious injury (loss of an eye, head trauma, etc.) is very high.
That would be the Grad Student that got her hair tangled and the action strangled her? If so it was more like four years ago. Just after that the DW got a couple strands of hers caught in the chuck, she is much more careful now.
It's been over 2 years since I heard of a death, but before that it was every year or two for the about the last 10 years. All but the Grad Student were head injuries of one sort or another.
Every one of those the victims did not wear a face-shield.

[charlie knighton]

seems to me there was a Tennessee turner who died while turning some sort of burl which exploded

[Justin Stephen]

That would be the Grad Student that got her hair tangled and the action strangled her? If so it was more like four years ago. Just after that the DW got a couple strands of hers caught in the chuck, she is much more careful now.
It's been over 2 years since I heard of a death, but before that it was every year or two for the about the last 10 years. All but the Grad Student were head injuries of one sort or another.
Every one of those the victims did not wear a face-shield.

Hadn't heard about that one. No, the one I am thinking of was an older female turner who was very popular. Her piece either exploded are came off the lathe and hit her in the head. I seem to recall her husband found her some time after it had happened. I didn't know her personally so her name escapes me at the moment.

Edit:

Found it. It was in 2011. Her name was Joan Kelly. There was a thread over on the AAW forum about it. From that thread:



Many of you are already aware of Joan's dreadful accident on May 4, but I will give a brief account: Joan was turning a heavy bowl blank on her lathe. It flew to pieces and one large piece struck her in the face and forehead causing profuse bleeding and underlying injuries to the face and skull. I found her within what must have been a very few minutes, called an ambulance, and applied a compress. She got to the hospital having lost a great deal of blood and requiring transfusions. She immediately went into surgery. Over the last ten days, her blood pressure and other vital signs have generally stabilized. We hope that the swelling is decreasing, and Tuesday a lumbar puncture lowered the pressure on the brain dramatically. We pray for a good recovery, but she has not yet regained consciousness. She is receiving outstanding medical care.
I cannot begin to express my gratitude for the incredible outpouring of prayer, sympathy and assistance that has already occurred. Many of you, plus Joan's many other friends, have blessed us with prayers, assistance and love. The community on Joan's beloved Ocracoke Island have sent us their love. The contra dancers are praying for her, including dancers in Little Rock and Huntsville, who were recently delighted by her talented calling. Close friends in Joan's jazzercise and yoga groups have been on hand. Clergy from Idlewild and a number of churches have prayed with us. Dear friends have been with us daily, offering prayer, food, sympathy and greatly appreciated medical expertise. Whatever remains ahead, Joan should know that she is admired, treasured and loved to a degree that exceeds her wildest dreams. For my own part, I am humbled by the staunchness and devotion of so many wonderful people. For the last few days, some lines of Yeats have been running through my head: "Think where man's glory most begins and ends, And say my glory was I had such friends."

[Thom Sturgill]

If I recall correctly, she was wearing eye protection but not a face shield. I doubt that a cheap shield of the type sold at Lowes or HomeDepot would have helped.

[Reed Gray]

There were at least 3 very serious accidents in a short period a year or two ago. Kind of like driving a car, you always have to pay attention, and most of the time that will keep you fairly safe. I never trust any piece of wood till it is finish turned, sanded and finished.

robo hippy

[Dale Bonertz]

Common sense only goes far as having some experience with what you are doing. If very little or no experience one has no common sense on an action.

I heard of two accidents recently in which both turners are at least intermediate turners. One has turned many bowls using a point center so to him it works and is fine. Until he put an exceptionally oval dried blank on his lathe and put to much pressure on the blank and as he was truing the outside the point split the bowl. He was not hit but was very shaken for as he explained he could have been hit. Took out his light over the lathe and pieces went around. The other was also turning a dried blank and he did not tighten his sliding head stock down tight enough and it moved back while truing the outside of the bowl. Bowl came off the lathe and bounced around a bit. One can say they did not use common sense or maybe sometimes we get complacent because we have done it this way a hundred times without fail. Moral of the stories is double check your lathe settings even if you think your in the habit of turning speed down when you leave the shop or etc. BTW they were both turning at what would be considered safe speeds.

I hear so many talk about the line of fire and then you see videos and read how people are rough turning or truing a bowl. When turning right handed you cannot help but put your body in the line of fire when turning the outside of a bowl. Granted if it is a bowl 12" and under or a not very deep bowl you can stay out of the line pretty well. If turning a larger bowl or deeper bowl it is very difficult to keep your body out of the line as you come up the side of the bowl from the base to rim, right handed. This is especially true if you are using a "roughing cut" which many use a pull cut and this puts your body directly in the line of fire. There are ways to rough turn without putting any of your body in the line of fire which learning to turn left handed is one way, for roughing. Once a bowl is trued and inspected then putting your body in the line of fire intermittently is generally OK and unavoidable.

Be safe out there. Maintain about 10% fear of the piece of equipment your operating and for the most part this will keep you alert to think about what you are doing and is it safe. To much fear and you overcompensate by holding things with a death grip or etc. It is when you no longer have any fear when it will get you.

[Reed Gray]

The young woman who died at the lathe was on a metal lathe, and her long hair got caught on the lathe, and she was strangled. She was also working alone. There were 2 incidents of pieces that blew up, and killed 2 different turners. I believe one was related to not checking the speed first. There have been a number of times when questionable pieces have exploded and done serious damage. Some times it is ignorance, some times just being careless or not paying attention. So, in part, know your limits, and be alert.

I do have a 'How to stand out of the line of fire when turning bowls' video clip in my brain percolating. Need to get it done. It involves figuring out how to put into a demonstration what I do by habit without thinking about it.

robo hippy

[Bill Boehme]

Somehow, a flurry of dialogue over "the inherent possibility of serious injury" in Woodturning. Okay, okay, I understand the need for eye and lung protection, but as long as we stay clear of the line of fire (the area directly opposite the axis of the wood) I think we're safer than riding in a car.

How many woodturning deaths actually occur each year? I searched the Internet and could only find one or two. Yes, we have to use common sense and work smart, but I don't think we need to live in fear.

An Internet search doesn't mean anything. I know several members of my club who have had serious accidents and you won't find anything about it on the Internet mostly because 99% od woodturners do not participate in turning forums. I agree with what Dale Bonertz said about no experience equates to no common sense. Your idea about staying out of the line of fire removing all risk is another mistaken notion. Definitely stay out of the line of fire, but the trajectory of something coming off the lathe will usually be altered by contact with something before it leaves the lathe. That expands the line of fire considerably. This means that you need to do things safely and not just assume that by standing out of the line of fire you are safe. Your face shield is not equivalent to Star Trek shields -- in fact they are hardly good for more that just small flying particles that could put out an eye. If you want to get an idea of what it feels like to get hit by a large piece of wood, try dropping it on your bare foot from mid chest height. Then multiply that by about a factor of ten. You probably wouldn't want to get hit with kind of force.

[terry mccammon]

Under the heading of for what it is worth. A friend's wife who is a retired plaintiff's attorney mentioned the other day that wood lathes were the single most "dangerous" tools in the wood shop. We speculated that while I presumed that table and chop saws were the worse, that loss of a finger or two is real cheap compared to skull and facial injuries. In her world dangerous = expensive. So there may be more incidents with saws but more dollars at the lathe.

[Rich Aldrich]

This is my opinion, so don't take it as an insult. I really don't care how others practice safety - what you do is your business, not mine. However, I don't want to see anyone get hurt. We are responsible for our own safety and no one is there to watch over us.

I work in industry and our basic philosophy is that all accidents are preventable. It really boils down to risk management and not just the risk of death. The risk of being killed turning on a lathe is probably low, but I am more concerned with any accident that takes time away from the family, shop and other activities (such as being able to perform my day job). People tend to have the Superman syndrome - it won't happen to me. Staying out of the line of fire is not highly safe because it is not positive protection. One distraction and you can easily get into the line of fire.

I prefer to have more positive protection. Not only do I use lung protection and a shield, I also use the guard that came with the lathe. I tend to turn a lot of burls, so things come off much more frequently than if turning normal clear wood. Mostly, I use the guard when roughing and starting the finish turn. Once I am making the final finish cuts, I want the guard out of the way so I can see the form uninterrupted by the guard. Guards could be designed better, but until we actually see the value and are willing to pay for a better guard, I doubt we will see any improvements. At this point, I try to practice the line of fire method and normally by this point any weak spot has reared its ugly head and has been remedied. On burls, I use epoxy - instant coffee glue to hold things together. You still need to watch for logs with wind shake or other cracks and weak spots, even if the wood appears to be clear.

I also think about what I am going to do. Is it safe? Is there a safer way?

I really think that the equipment manufacturers should work with us turners and develop a more user friendly guard. If not, maybe engineers like me should take something like this on as a side project and see what we can be develop.

As a side note, my family was in logging for 75 years and I started cutting when I was 15. Us supermen back then wore hard hats when cutting hardwood, but no chaps, face screens, hearing protection, or safety boots. Now, I wont touch my chain saw without all of this gear. The chain brake must also function properly.

[paul cottingham]

I think some of the current angst may come from the Schwarz. In his latest video, he says he wears face protection because at least one turner is killed every year presumably by face strikes. Ironically, the face shield he uses in the vid doesn't look like it could stop anything.

ok, well, maybe a sneeze.

[Russell Neyman]

I think some of the current angst may come from the Schwarz. In his latest video, he says he wears face protection because at least one turner is killed every year presumably by face strikes. Ironically, the face shield he uses in the vid doesn't look like it could stop anything.

There: someone has stated, clearly, that "at least one turner is killed every year." But is that true? And are these occurrences unique to turning, or are they simply woodworking related? Let's say that there is one death per year and there are, perhaps, 500,000 regular woodturners in the world. Given that most of us work on the lathe multiple times a week, that's an extremely low fatality rate.

[Geoff Whaling]

Russell,

Long term I suspect it averages to 1-2 wood turning related deaths per year in our English speaking wood turning community. How do I arrive at that figure?

It is very difficult to say with any authority due to research data capture methodology. On scene deaths do not appear in hospital admission figures and other data that does record fatalities does not record sufficient data on mechanism of death etc. Some recent confirmed deaths at the wood lathe I have found are Aust in Dec 2012; USA x 2 Apr & May 2011; Canada July 2009. There are a number of metal lathe fatalities and horrific injuries each year.

In 2007 I reviewed research from UK (2002 HASS), USA (CDC 2006), Canada & Australia ( ICCWA, QISU, NISU etc) while preparing articles on wood turning safety. Mortality & injury statistics are kept by various medical authorities, however interpreting data pertinent to wood lathe injuries is not easy. Deaths from hobby (or work related) woodturning are insignificant relative to other causes of death. The most relevant research I found relates to injury / death (in hospitals only) from Do It Yourself (DIY). Some of that research includes wood hobbies. The UK HASS data has a national estimate of some 400 lathe injuries (angle grinder 6000, circular saw 3500, chainsaw 1200 pa).

[Thom Sturgill]

1-2 deaths a year is probably about 2 degrees of separation on average in this age of the internet. That is to say you either knew the person or knew someone who did.

It would probably be impossible to rate woodturning related injuries as you have to include bandsaw, chainsaw, and lathe injuries and the impossible to define lung damage from sanding and finishing.

[robert baccus]

Some years ago it was reported that a turner died and another almost working on some silky oak. Supposedly poisoned by the same green log.

[Russell Neyman]

What I'm taking from this is that the fundamental activity of Woodturning -- working in front of a spinning piece of wood -- isn't extremely dangerous as my debating friend insists. Yeah, you can bang a knuckle now and then, but we have very little in the way of life-threatening stuff.

Not to say that a good face shield, respration filters, and standing clear of the bowl's waistline aren't good practices.

Chainsaws are another matter. They scare me to death!

[Thom Sturgill]

What I'm taking from this is that the fundamental activity of Woodturning -- working in front of a spinning piece of wood -- isn't extremely dangerous as my debating friend insists. Yeah, you can bang a knuckle now and then, but we have very little in the way of life-threatening stuff.

Not to say that a good face shield, respration filters, and standing clear of the bowl's waistline aren't good practices.

Chainsaws are another matter. They scare me to death!

I have a few tools that scare me too - hand held routers (other than the small trim routers and dremels, etc) and that angle grinder with a chain saw blade... Both tend to want to get away from me. I've been bitten by tablesaws, and they instill great respect but not fear as I *know* how to use it safely. I was too hot and not thinking clearly - the problem with Florida summers - now I know better when to walk away.

The cure is proper training, though avoidance works too. In the case of chainsaws, avoidance generally means missing out on a lot of free wood or owning a honking big bandsaw, which has its own set of dangers.

[Geoff Whaling]

Researchers use the term "unintentional injury" to refer to injuries that are non-volitional but preventable. All wood turning injuries fall into this definition – they are not “accidents.”

A significant proportion of lathe injuries are hand injuries however the more important number is how many head, severe facial & eye injuries and traumatic brain injuries (TBI’s) are there from wood turning? Due to the mechanism of injury, many lathe injuries tend to have long treatment, hospitalization & recovery times.

The most significant messages from the research on DIY injury relevant to wood lathes are,


Hand tools, table saws & grinders (angle, bench etc) cause the most numerous injuries,
Slips, trips & falls associated with workshops feature significantly for “older persons.”
Falls from ladders kill far more DIYer’s than all other causes of death associated with DIY combined,
Lower torso & leg injuries from the lathe are almost non-existent (shielded by the tool rest & lathe bed),
Hand & finger injuries are very common,
Severe facial & eye injuries are common,
Traumatic brain injuries are very significant proportional to the numbers of injuries to wood turners (and to older persons), and in terms of hospitalization time.
the wood lathe is by far the most likely machine in a wood shop to actually be involved in the death of a wood worker. Other machines maim but don’t knock people unconscious.
the cause of death at the lathe usually involves working alone, an unstable work piece, an oops moment, a flying object with significant mass & velocity, severe head injury, being rendered incapable of getting assistance, then being undiscovered for some time.
Often there are other medical conditions (pre-existing? or otherwise) that may have contributed to the cause of the injury / death at the wood lathe.


“Common” simply means common in terms of the reported statistics relative to total figures. In terms of injuries per 100,000 wood workers per year or per wood turning man hour we really don’t know. In most lathe fatalities we don’t know the details but we do know what are the typical mechanisms of injury and the scenarios in which they occur.

Look up Lynne Yamaguchi’s blog. Lynne’s story is so typical of the potential horrific injuries sustained.

The good news much of this is very avoidable using prudent and proven “safe turning techniques.”

[Russell Neyman]

The last sentence of Geoff's post says a lot.

But I want to add this: To turn safely, you absolutely cannot be timid or fearful. I see more catches and broken bowls caused by novices who are hesitant to engage the wood and too quick to leap in the air when something unexpected occurs. You need to proceed with a firm grip, a good/safe plan, and a positive attitude.

[Hilel Salomon]

Perhaps I'm writing too quickly and letting some emotion creep in, but I think that two deaths a year are two too many. The number of injuries to hands, face, head and arms is significant. Can most of these be avoided? Yes, but not all of them. When a bowl suddenly breaks because of a hidden default and the pieces go flying in every direction, there is a good possibility of some injury occurring. Using safety equipment and using the tailstock can prevent a lot of "misfortune." The proper speed is as important as the proper equipment. I also think that demonstrators and instructors should assume a responsible role in woodturning. I have seen too many of them move the rest while the lathe is turning, smile and say "do as I say and not as I do." One demonstrator routinely opened his bottle of CA with his teeth and assured us that the fumes were not dangerous and that he had never had his lips glued together. It's nice when you can hold a tool steadily with one hand, but demonstrators, IMO, shouldn't do so. I have also seen experienced demonstrators cut round stock on a bandsaw. All of these things, I think, contribute to sloppy habits and danger.

[Rich Aldrich]

The only sure way to protect yourself when turning burls or otherwise unstable wood - or any wood that happens to let loose - is to use a structural guard. They are a nuisance because it interferes with seeing good form lines, but they are always there. Unlike methods of staying out of the line of fire, the guard is there and in place. There are no lapses of thought where you happen to briefly cross in the line of fire.

I think that lathe manufacturers should spend some R&D on a decent guard that isn't as intrusive on seeing the form. I think more people would use a guard if the designs were better.

[Geoff Whaling]

Hilel, I’m with you – any death is one too many. Yes blanks do fly apart while turning but usually it is because the turner is pushing the envelope or not checking. That is a hazard and a risk of turning. If a turner chooses to accept that risk, it is their choice but their choices affect others, family, friends etc.

I have given Russell’s statement about timid novices much thought over the years. Many novice turners are quickly taught to be afraid to present a tool to the work piece because of the methods used to teach novices - much like teaching swimming & having learners jump into the deep end first with no life jacket or other aids. Novice wood turners face a rather steep learning curve & if they have little or no previous experience with hand tools or machinery it can be an even more daunting process. I come from a different perspective - give them a safety net.

The fear and stress levels for novices can be alleviated by starting them off on previously prepared round & trued spindle blanks using cone/ring centres as drives (or with a slack drive belt). Essentially they have a clutch until they work out tool presentation and have a blank with no nasty surprises. Initially it may be frustrating but it is far safer. The work simply spins rather than having an inexperienced turner wrestle with unexpected tool movement from a catch and becoming frightened by the whole experience. It also teaches novices to avoid making heavy cuts and to concentrate on taking light technical cuts or the work piece simply spins. Once the novice masters tool presentation, take a step back and then teach them to prepare blanks from the rough.

With modern variable speed lathes novices can learn by seeing what actually happens in almost slow motion. Learn spindle roughing gouge, spindle gouge or detail gouge presentation angles with a very conservative rubbing the tool/bevel presentation first then drawing & raising the tool into the cut. Learn to present a 3/8" spindle gouge to make a cove or a skew to make a V cut on a 1.5” or 2" spindle blank at say 50 or 100 rpm without the fear factor and in a situation they feel they are in control of. Slowly progress & increase the speed & friction on the drive and then move to a spur drive as their confidence and skill level dictates. Novices who learn fast can advance quickly.

The same can be done with bowl blanks. Forget using a four jaw scroll chuck initially and start between centres as above. Learn bowl gouge presentation angles with a very conservative rubbing the bevel presentation then raising the tool into the cut. No risk, no frightening moments. Novice turner’s progress as their confidence develops.

If you look at most training manuals and even the AAW's well prepared "Lets Go For a Spin" manual, they start off novices in session one using a 3" x 3" x 9" square spindle blank to be prepared with a spindle roughing gouge. That is pretty daunting if you have little skill with hand tools.

Personally I would start a novice turner in session one with a 1.5" or 2" prepared spindle blank being taught how to present a spindle roughing gouge to take a slicing cut, then straight to a skew. Forget beads and coves! Once they have mastered the SRG or skew move onto to previously prepared pen blanks on a pen mandrel. Use a pen style that gives them plenty of meat around the pen tube. Turn and sand the pen blank, finish it and assemble, one, two or three or how many they want to do in the first session. The novice gets a keepsake or two, and plenty of confidence with little risk of injury to body and very little waste of resources. If they fly through that in one session then move to beads & coves and roughing blanks.

[Russell Neyman]

"...stress levels for novices can be alleviated by starting them off on previously prepared round & trued spindle blanks using cone/ring centres as drives...The work simply spins rather than having an inexperienced turner wrestle with unexpected tool movement from a catch and becoming frightened by the whole experience. It also teaches novices to avoid making heavy cuts and to concentrate on taking light technical cuts or the work piece simply spins..."

I like that. I see beginners choose a cheap, crappy wood for their first time -- lumber yard fir or cracked pieces of firewood -- and that's a big mistake. I usually start a newbee with wet madrone because it cuts like butter and I have plenty of it. Seems to me the first lesson should be wood selection.

[Lee Reep]

What I'm taking from this is that the fundamental activity of Woodturning -- working in front of a spinning piece of wood -- isn't extremely dangerous as my debating friend insists.

I think I'd find a new friend to hang out with ... :rolleyes:

[Geoff Whaling]

What I'm taking from this is that the fundamental activity of Woodturning -- working in front of a spinning piece of wood -- isn't extremely dangerous as my debating friend insists. Yeah, you can bang a knuckle now and then, but we have very little in the way of life-threatening stuff.

Not to say that a good face shield, respration filters, and standing clear of the bowl's waistline aren't good practices.

Chainsaws are another matter. They scare me to death!

Chainsaws won't kill you, just maim you badly, or at least that is what the statistics say. There are many times more chain saws in use than wood lathes yet the fatality rate from chainsaws is almost non existent. The injury rate is high and the extent of injuries from chainsaws is quite horrific. Same for table saws - no deaths to speak of but numerous digit amputations. You don't see many amputations from a wood lathe, more like nasty crush injuries to digits and a very very high proportion of head injuries.

If a wood turner thinks wood turning isn't or can't be dangerous or that a face shield will save them from a traumatic head injury well I suggest they should take up another hobby - real fast! Hand wood turning has many hazards, some with potentially fatal outcomes, that we quite deliberately choose to accept and tolerate because we wish to enjoy and preserve the craft of hand wood turning. Assuming a calculated risk is fine in my book as long as turners observe the protocols that reduce hazards to acceptable levels of risk.

Wearing a good quality face shield (all the time) rated to the appropriate impact standards of the potential hazards is one very good safety control. It should not be the only hazard control measure in place. A face shield will not save a turner from all potential injury if they continue to take high levels of risk turning blanks that have a high probability of creating high mass, high speed flying objects. Appropriate face shields will serve their purpose well to eliminate common eye injuries and will reduce and mitigate some more serious potential eye and facial injuries and hopefully mitigate the extent of injury in the more traumatic cases that cause traumatic brain injury & death.

In industry mandated risk management protocols identify hazards and prioritize risks then action is taken to eliminate the hazard, substitute the hazardous process or product for a safer option, or to engineer out the hazard or isolate the "worker" from the hazard - i.e. machinery guards, screens etc. Attempts to introduce safety guards to isolate a wood turner from the spinning work piece have failed miserably so far with almost all screens removed from wood lathes.

In a workplace a business owner would be considered negligent and exposed to potential prosecution if they permitted a worker to remove a safety screen, modify machinery, or permit many of the tasks hobby wood turners undertake to continue without modification to minimize risk.

Why do hobby wood turners willingly accept risks in their hobby that they would not tolerate as a worker? I haven't figured that one out yet.

[Hilel Salomon]

I don't mean to keep this thing going, but there were a few comments that really caught my attention. The use of chainsaws in turning is quite common. A lot of us cut up fallen trees or use a chainsaw for trees that need to be cut down for one reason or another, and many of us do a preliminary "rounding" with a chainsaw. It is a serious error to dismiss the dangers of using a chainsaw. The number of serious injuries and deaths due to misuse of chainsaws runs into the scores of thousands a year. I'm not talking about cutting a large tree down in the wrong manner, or falling off a tree while cutting limbs. What I'm talking about is kickback which can be deadly. Most good chainsaws have a chainbreak but that's not foolproof. Good safety equipment for chainsaw use tends to be better than the things commonly used for woodturning, but the former is also not foolproof. People have had their necks almost severed because of kickback. Here again, I've seen videos of people explaining how to cut lumber for turning where the demonstrator was not even wearing safety glasses. That's crazy!!!! I don't think of myself as a wuss, but I wear chaps, safety glasses ,a helmet and guard when I use one of my chainsaws. I'm especially cautious because I often do this while alone in my property. Yes, each of us is responsible for our own use of tools, but almost all of us will-at one time or another- teach, instruct or introduce people to woodturning. It is irresponsible to pass along unsafe practices.

[Russell Neyman]

Hilel, please DO help us keep this dialogue going. Yes, my particular "bent" is that the deadly threat of working at a lathe is overblown, but this IS a healthy discussion. Pun intended.

The funny thing is most turners are in denial about shop safety. Our club surveyed the general membership about "What Demonstrations Topics Would You Like To See?" safety finished dead last-- less than 2 percent of the responses.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

OK, I think I'll chime in. I wasn't going to post, get labeled as a safety fanatic but I'll keep this going:

How many of you utilize your cage IF your lathe came with one, or is it hanging on the wall?

I use mine. It has certainly saved me from some pain when the bark from Norfolk pine comes off in sheets. As mentioned, most faceshields won't save you from trauma, unless using riot gear. I always try to use it, especially when roughing, I do admit, I don't always use it. I've had 2 occasions where something unstable did blow up or fly off. I'm glad I had the cage down. Also when the speed goes way up, the cage comes down. The AAW magazine had a short article, if you paint the guard flat black, it cuts the reflection down a LOT, and it's much easier to see "through" the guard. I did paint mine and it does help.

Yeah, I know it's a PITA to use, gets in the way, hard to see through, all of that. I drape an old towel over the back of the cage and let it catch all the CA and debris flying off the wood. That helps keep your shop clean. Well, clean-er.

Let's be safe. I want to turn for another couple decades. It takes but a second to get a trip to the ER. No flames please. Just my $0.02.

[Cody Colston]

There are few (no?) machines in a woodworking shop that cannot maim or kill the operator under certain circumstances. I had a forum friend tell about watching a man bleed to death in a cabinet shop when a piece of a router bit broke off and severed his femoral artery. While the frequency of wood lathe-related deaths may be unknown, it is a fact that they have occurred. Timber fallers die every year from chainsaw related incidents. Most of the time it's the tree that kills them but the saw does, too.

My position is that if you don't understand and accept the risks or if you are scared of your machines, you have no business in a woodshop. Turning and woodworking is personal decision and like someone else stated earlier in this thread, we are all responsible for our own safety.

Me, I'm hoping to be knocked stone, cold dead by an exploding bowl...when I'm 100 years old. :D

[Russell Neyman]

https://turnabouts.wordpress.com/2015/04/20/dangerous-conversations/

[John K Jordan]

Chainsaws: The best education I've found is a little book titled "The Good Woodcutter's Guide". I don't remember the author's name but he cut wood for a living and explained the ins and outs of the business. (a hard business!) He had a lot of information on chainsaw use and safety with descriptions of lots of ways to get hurt, hurt bad, and killed. Like anything, we often don't know to protect against hazards that we have never heard of, let alone imagined. Many times since I've started taking down a tree or cutting up something and comments from that book caused me to stop and do something else.

Safety equipment: I cringe when I see someone, usually a "professional", using a chainsaw without eye, ear, and head protection. Idiots. And I have NEVER seen a treecutter use chaps. I wear mine religiously after I found a small cut one day that had pulled some of the kevlar fibers out. I have two of the Stihl combination hard hats with built-in ear and eye protection and use them every time.

One thing about kickback: we can know about it and guard against getting the chain in kickback positions, but one might not be obvious: cutting a piece of log on the ground that has other logs and limbs around it. The section you are concentrating on may be fine, but what can get you is if the tip of the chainsaw touches another section or limb behind the log, hidden from view. Kickback! Since I read that I know to check for clearance of hidden obstructions every time.

A neighbor was felling a tree in his woods like he had done for 50 years. He was very careful. He had his plan, had a clear exit, then made his cuts and retreated. What got him was when the tree bumped another tree which jostled a third tree he was standing behind. A dead limb, a "widow maker", broke loose and put him on the ground. After seventeen stitches in his head at the emergency room and weeks of rest he was back to almost normal. Failure: not carefully examining the site and no hard hat.

A young friend of mine was killed when trimming branches with a HAND saw. He was climbing down the tree when it split at a crotch and crushed him. Would a more careful examination of the tree have prevented this? I don't know.

When I bought this farm and got a tractor I read everything I could on how to get hurt and killed by a tractor. There are a surprising number of ways I never thought of and I'll bet most other tractor users have not. If anyone is interested I can list some. The more you know, the more you can guard against. That's why I love to find discussions like this since I always learn something. Can't be too careful!

JKJ

[Bruce Lewane]

Honestly having a bit of fear when it comes to power tools is not a bad thing. If, that fear translates into respect. In forty some years of carpentry and cabinet building I've seen guys maim themselves in many different ways. Lack of respect leads to lack of attention. Throw in being in a hurry otherwise known as lack of patience and all kinds of mayhem can ensue.

[Dale Bonertz]

I am so glad to hear you say that Bruce. I have 32 years in wood window and door manufacturing and carpentry. I always say maintain 10% fear of the tool you're using because it will make you ask yourself if what you are about to do safe. That is awareness and respect for the equipment.

[Geoff Whaling]

https://turnabouts.wordpress.com/2015/04/20/dangerous-conversations/

Russell,

Thank you for spreading the safety message. It is always healthy to discuss how we view safety while using the lathe and to gain a wide range of views. Thankyou for quoting parts of my posts from SMC verbatim in your blog, however if you are going to quote another’s views please at least quote them accurately and do your research.

I would like to clarify a few matters I do not live in the USA I’m an Aussie living in tropical FNQ. I think you may have me confused with a namesake motor sport and wine enthusiast in the USA.

I certainly do not work in the “industrial safety field.” However I do have 35 years experience as a field surveyor often working in very remote areas under modern health and safety legislation. I have been working with wood from my earliest memories and have a very healthy survival instinct at work and in my shed.

“Geoff makes a couple of good points, but I take exception to his warning that what we do is more dangerous than, say, using a table saw or climbing a ladder.”

“The one death that Geoff was able to cite specifically involved a woman who was using a metal lathe and her hair somehow became entangled in the machine.”

I think you have misunderstood my message and have selectively done so to reinforce your own opinions. My comments, at post #9 among a number of my observations from the 2002 UK HASS & LASS and other research were,

“The most significant messages from the research on DIY injury relevant to wood lathes are,


Falls from ladders kill far more DIYer’s than all other causes of death associated with DIY combined,
Traumatic brain injuries are very significant proportional to the numbers of injuries to wood turners (and to older persons), and in terms of hospitalization time.
the wood lathe is by far the most likely machine in a wood shop to actually be involved in the death of a wood worker. Other machines maim but don’t knock people unconscious.
the cause of death at the lathe usually involves working alone, an unstable work piece, an oops moment, a flying object with significant mass & velocity, severe head injury, being rendered incapable of getting assistance, then being undiscovered for some time”


I did cite 4 reported deaths from “wood lathes.” Broad details are East Waterdown Canada 2009, Griffith Australia (never reported in the press) 2012, Yale 2011 & a Mid-South Woodturners Guild turner also in 2011. Unfortunately the URL’s to the original news links are no longer active for the Waterdown article. Contact Mike Maffitt at Mid-South Woodturners (an AAW Chapter) about the tragic loss of one of their own. http://www.midsouthwoodturners.com/Newsletter_2011_files/0611talk.pdf

“Some recent confirmed deaths at the wood lathe I have found are Aust in Dec 2012; USA x 2 Apr & May 2011; Canada July 2009.”

You are partially correct as initially one death was reported at a “wood lathe” but was later mentioned to be a metal lathe. However the important message from the young lady’s unfortunate demise is the mechanism of death, working alone and entanglement in the lathe, inaccessible power switch & the lack of an emergency switch, a scenario which can easily occur at the wood lathe.

My comments about injuries are based upon review of formal research into DIY and hobby injuries and are not based upon gut feeling, assumptions and anecdotal evidence. I am always open to others views and very much appreciate information about injury events or leads about formal research papers & articles. You would be surprised at how embarrassed turners are to report injuries.

Perhaps my most significant comment made also in post #9 (now #10???) is,

“The good news much of this is very avoidable using prudent and proven “safe turning techniques.”

You are most welcome to obtain and read my full views on wood turning safety published in a six part series in UK “Woodturning” issues 252 to 257. My independent views just happen to significantly align with the AAW’s board members policy. The AAW’s Secretary & safety advocate Rob Wallace was attempting to obtain permission from the copyright license owner to use them on the AAW site.

I would sincerely appreciate you correcting your biased reporting of my comments from this forum in your column at https://turnabouts.wordpress.com/2015/04/20/dangerous-conversations/

ps I feel there is something radically wrong with SMC and how it is sequencing reply posts in this thread.

[Russell Neyman]

Dale and Bruce, that's the trick, isn't it: to maintain respect for the machine, awareness of possible consequences, yet assertiveness to maintain control.

[Russell Neyman]

Russell, Thank you ... for quoting parts of my posts from SMC verbatim in your blog, however if you are going to quote another’s views please at least quote them accurately and do your research.... I certainly do not work in the “industrial safety field.” However I do have 35 years experience as a field surveyor often working in very remote areas under modern health and safety legislation. I have been working with wood from my earliest memories and have a very healthy survival instinct at work and in my shed.... I think you have misunderstood my message and have selectively done so to reinforce your own opinions. ...You are partially correct as initially one death was reported at a “wood lathe” but was later mentioned to be a metal lathe. However the important message from the young lady’s unfortunate demise is the mechanism of death, working alone and entanglement in the lathe, inaccessible power switch & the lack of an emergency switch, a scenario which can easily occur at the wood lathe.

My comments about injuries are based upon review of formal research into DIY and hobby injuries and are not based upon gut feeling, assumptions and anecdotal evidence. I am always open to others views and very much appreciate information about injury events or leads about formal research papers & articles. You would be surprised at how embarrassed turners are to report injuries.

I would sincerely appreciate you correcting your biased reporting of my comments from this forum in your column.

ps I feel there is something radically wrong with SMC and how it is sequencing reply posts in this thread.

Geoff, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're "biased." And I didn't mean to single you out as the villain in this discussion; you were simply the most vocal about what an incredibly dangerous vocation woodturning has become. Honestly, given your cries of gloom and doom, I don't know how anyone would ever take up the craft! And if you read my full essay, you'll see that I fully embrace common sense and most of the safe practices you do. In fact, your observation about the hazards of working alone led me to add the last guideline that suggested keeping the door open and carrying a phone.

The biggest disagreement that I and others have with your posting is the rather vague statement that "one or two" deaths occur at the lathe each year. That appears to be a guess, and you're essentially saying that there are all sorts of deaths (not injuries) that go unreported. I find that statistic hard to believe and harder to document, but I quoted you anyway. Perhaps you might modify your statement to say, "There have been at least X wood lathe deaths reported over the last X years."

I will, however, correct the statement that assumed that you were a "safety professional". If there are other corrections needed, please note them specifically and send me a personal message. I don't think it's practical to quote chapter and verse every single statement and link you've provided, but I will consider it.

What I attempted to do in writing my essay and initiating this Sawmill Creek discussion on woodturning safety is present a reasonable dialogue about something about which too many of us are in denial.

[hu lowery]

Home shops are by their very nature unregulated environments. Most are not even known to exist. I took a quick look at something that is better documented, mainly because it costs insurance companies millions a year. The below is a little information from two states and an "initiative"

Judging by the other numbers I would say the number the initiative is using is very conservative. However, at a bare minimum, over ten people a month on average are killed by farm tractors in the US. Worldwide the numbers are truly horrendous in some countries. But let's stick with the ten or twelve people a month number. How many of those deaths are the members of this forum aware of? How many can you find reported? Farm deaths are much bigger news than home workshop deaths because of the insurance costs and a powerful farm lobby. Still I would bet any of us without a special interest in farm tractor deaths don't notice ten news articles a year about them, much less ten a month!

Home workshop deaths aren't news and most deaths in a home shop aren't documented as to why they happen. We don't have a clue what the number of lathe related deaths or turning related deaths are, or major injuries. There isn't any real interest in this information except from us.

Hu


(Included text)
From 2003 through 2010, 74 farm operators and workers inIowa died from tractor-related injuries. Most of these fatalities wereassociated with tractors that overturned on the farm or roadway, where thetractor did not have ROPS to prevent the operator from being pinned under orthrown from the tractor.(note that this is only rollover injuries on tractorswithout ROPS(Roll over protection, Hu) my error, this is all tractor related deaths despite the article being about deaths without ROPS.
(end included text)
[ Not stated is that people rarely wear seatbelts on atractor and the ROPS itself is a major cause of injury or death when no seatbelt is worn. Also there are other tractor related deaths besides rollovers.Hu]

(Included text)
From 1971 to 1981, a study to characterize Georgia deathsassociated with farm-tractor accidents was undertaken as a basis for developingpreventive recommendations. For each death certificate listing a farm-tractoraccident as the cause or contributing cause of death, information wasabstracted concerning the characteristics of the victim and the accident. Twohundred two tractor-associated fatalities occurred in Georgia during the studyperiod.
(end included text)

(Included text)
Farm tractors accounted for the deaths of 2,165 farm between1992 and 2001.
The most common type of tractor accident is roll overs—TheU.S. Department of Labor (USDL) reports that 44% of farm accidents are due totractor roll overs.
The National Agricultural Tractor Safety Initiative reportsthat tractors cause about 130 deaths annually, or half of all farm workerfatalities.
(end included text)

[Bruce Lewane]

I'm just very attached to my fingers and toes and at this point in my life I don't need to go looking for more pain.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a poster boy for tool safety. My only point is to be aware of where you are and what you are doing.
The other day I was doing some turning and my dogs started barking. My concentration got scattered, got a catch, the tool jumped and caught a bit of flesh between it and the tool rest. Just a reminder.
Pay attention!

[Jeffrey J Smith]

I'm just very attached to my fingers and toes and at this point in my life I don't need to go looking for more pain.
I'm with Bruce here. I'm very respectful of the tools in my shop. Only had a few brushes with major accidents in the past 40 years, mostly try to keep aware of what I'm doing but mainly keep aware of the potential for problems with the tool I'm using. I not only love my fingers and toes, I don't know what I'd do without my eyes...the faceshield gets a lot of use.

[Geoff Whaling]

Geoff, just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're "biased." And I didn't mean to single you out as the villain in this discussion;

Russell,

I accept your explanation, no flame war here, just rational discussion. I’ve been labelled a “naysayer” and "chicken little" many times. It is difficult to communicate the safety message and inform turners about hazards & risk without being labelled. Turners simply refuse to acknowledge that wood turning can be hazardous plus they are quite casual about reducing risk. Perhaps I am sensitive to others distorting my views.

I have no desire or motive to overstate the number of injuries or deaths in woodturning, just a desire to reduce risk and injuries. I sincerely hope my estimate of lathe deaths is overstated at 1-2 deaths per year. Being alarmist affects credibility. However I do wonder why many turners are in denial and what is the benefit or motive for grossly understating risk.

Hu makes a good point with his tractor example & about the reporting of deaths in home workshops. No newspaper report - can't be found by Google searches. Suicides, are another example.

Some background,

I wrote my safety articles in mid 2010, note the year – well before two female turners were killed, & before Lynne Yamaguchi was injured in 2012. I often ask myself “What if?”

I researched data including USA Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) National Electronic Injury Surveillance System (NEISS) data, perhaps the most comprehensive dataset available in the world, a statistical sample of ED presentations from 100 US hospitals. In a 205 page coding manual there is one code for “lathes, power – 0805,” no differentiation between wood or metal, fifteen codes for saws.

I reviewed the data again prior to publication in 2013. Yes I’m persistent & Mark Baker took a huge commercial risk! Comprehensive, searches using the NEISS query function and review of 100’s of MB of spreadsheets revealed only one injury, no deaths, attributed to 0805 in the 2011, 2012 & 2013 years. This is quite contrary to Australian, UK and Canadian research estimates. The CPSC NEISS national estimates for table saw injuries are around 35 to 40k pa which are generally cited.

In early 2013 I exchanged emails with J. Lee Annest, Chief, Statistics, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control in the USA about concerns I had about my search methodology. I had found only one recorded presentation, no deaths, yet I had irrefutable proof of the death of two females at a “lathe, power” in 2011. He gave me searching tips, and acknowledged that many wood turning related injuries are perhaps recorded as "other" however no change in the search result. Few in the wider community know what wood turning or a lathe is. This is a NEISS coding problem that potentially affects recording of onsite deaths or DOA’s too.

The obvious conclusion from the NEISS data is that “lathes, power” are extremely safe and US wood turners are exceptionally safe - no deaths, one injury attributed to code 0805 in three years. Please don’t quote that out of context as it would be grossly irresponsible to spread that message given the two confirmed deaths in the USA at a “lathe, power” in 2011. So I have had to rely heavily upon UK & Australian research.

Anecdotal evidence from a woodturning mate and a work colleague’s spouse indicate that their ortho & other teams are quite busy repairing nasty hand injuries and worse, some from lathes. Both work in Emergency Department’s in two of our large regional hospitals in NQ. Lathe injuries appear in the total presentations / admissions to hospital but the numbers are very low compared to angle grinder, table & circular saw and hobby knife injuries. Scalping and de-gloving injuries from a lathe (metal & wood) are also relatively common in terms of lathe injuries but very low in terms of total admissions. Many in the wood turning community believe that injuries in terms of the numbers of wood turners are significant, particularly the high potential for significant head injuries. But we are sounding like "chicken little" again.

I'm truly thankful that people like yourself are discussing safety and keeping it topical, and are sharing others views as well as their own, quite commendable really. Please keep reinforcing the – stay safe message.

[Russell Neyman]

So -- Geoff and others -- what's the "risk/reward" level you use? What do you consider risky but you do anyway because it pleases you or it makes your loved ones smile? What's YOUR bottom line? Why are you a woodturner if you consider this a threat to your life?

[Reed Gray]

I have never understood the 'fear' factor. To me, that means loss of thinking capacity. I have a very healthy respect for my machines and tools, and what they can do. I remember in my days as a hang glider pilot that some friends commented that I had a 'death wish'. Nothing of the sort. Calculated risk factor yes, but trying to cheat death, absolutely not. We can preach safety as much as we wish, but accidents will happen. That is the engineers problem, you can't make anything idiot proof, because as soon as you do, some one invents a better idiot. We all have a bit of that in us, and some more than others......

robo hippy

[Marvin Hasenak]

The most dangerous "tool" in the shop is the ignorant operator, the second "tool" is the operator that pushes the safety limits with no regards to the safety equipment. If you add the first and second you have an idiot that might sooner or later hurt or kill himself. I have been woodworking for over 60 years, I have a lot of respect for my tools, I know my limits and know the tools limits, and I know what can hurt me. I have never been to the ER or anything more than a band aid because I cut myself with a hand tool.

When something bad happens, most of the time it will be the operators fault. The tool doesn't know what speed to turn the wood at, that is the responsibility of the operator. A lot of times a simple question buy the operator to himself would save a lot of trouble, that question is "Is that really as safe as I think it is?". I push the limits, but on my turning I have steel mandrel in the middle of the piece of wood, and I let it fly, but if I use a funky piece of wood I slow the lathe down until I am sure it is safe to go to a higher speed. Once in the last 20 years I can remember a piece of wood splitting because it was turning to fast, I knew, but I thought I could finish it at that speed. I failed to slow the lathe down, if I had gotten hurt it would have been my fault.

We as a society in general fail to take responsibility for our own actions. Too many automatically blame someone else or something else for their actions. I have yet to find a machine think for me, that is my responsibility, if I use the machine incorrectly, it is MY FAULT, not the machine's fault. The last of my preaching, "Instant Gratification" today too many people want to be professionals way before their time, just because you saw someone else do it doesn't mean you are qualified to do it. That falls under the above ignorance rule.

[Geoff Whaling]

Russell, Good questions.

This may sound paradoxical - I do & I don't consider wood turning, my work or other hobby pursuits, a threat to my life because I make sure I learn about the hazards, risk and the potential consequences of things going wrong.

Why am I a wood turner? I enjoy the challenge of the many disciplines of wood turning, and the skill required to master them with minimum risk. See if you can get hold of David Pye’s “The Nature and Art of Workmanship” well worth reading David’s concept “workmanship of risk and the workmanship of certainty.”

My bottom line? It’s a hobby not a life or death choice! I don't need money or recognition from wood turning. If turning becomes high risk, say due to poor health etc, I will give it away. My bottom line is responsibilities & obligations to my family and friends that I care about.

I think I would seek help for myself and the relationship if earning my "loved ones" or another’s respect means continually being exposed to high levels of risk.

Risk/Reward. My threshold or comfort zone is probably high in some areas as my hobbies & work all involved remote or isolated areas. I am familiar with that life and understand that I have to be prepared & self sufficient, no corner store or help at hand. Even moderate injuries carry a much higher risk in those areas and can easily turn into a fatality. Often we have been the first aider or rescuer on land and at sea.

I won’t bore you but I have done many “risky” things including the occasional climb up to 400’ on telco structures; bashed cross country selecting roads & radio mast sites; regularly fished alone 50 to 80 miles off shore in my 20’ power boat. I ride a 650 cc single trail motorcycle as a regular commute. I rode observed motorcycle trials for 20 years, a pursuit that requires skill, practice, control, observation & patience but also required an aggressive streak at times. All are about choosing the option with the highest probability of success, and achieving it with minimal penalties. My spouse is comfortable and confident in my abilities and knows that I am not prone to making rash decisions or risking our future.

I now have much higher risks as I am battery operated and have had defibrillator / pacemaker for over 8 years now. I have had to modify my life so I can still enjoy my interests. Things including some lathes, shop tools, gas chainsaws & ladders are now off limits or restricted use. The risk is what happens when I have an episode. My cardiologist would prefer I did not do some of them but we have reached an understanding. :rolleyes: Do I fully comply – maybe! My Makita electric chainsaw is great though! ;)

The reward – through work & play I have enjoyed the remoteness, the challenges and the satisfaction of doing what many people only get to dream off. I will leave it to others to judge my life & wood turning skills. I just want to enjoy my quota of “years of potential life.”

Seriously very few things are worth gambling your life upon. I have been way past my comfort zone at times & have had to choose the least damaging option, but very rarely for a hobby.

Wood turning is only dangerous if you make it so and many do. “Common sense” is not so common, it’s a mythical concept. Learned behavior & acquired knowledge keeps you safe.

ps that's some of my work, middle right, the spin tops and bowl. I have done much larger work but I prefer linear laminations, combining flat work & lathe skills.

312159

[Russell Neyman]

"Common sense” is not so common, it’s a mythical concept."--? Hmmmm. Will need to contemplate that notion for a day or two, Geoff.

Reed: You and I have both experienced turners and people in all walks of life who live in constant, irrational fear that's hard to understand. They lock doors, carry weapons, put up fences, and generally waste their lives.
That's really what this entire thread is all about, isn't it?

[Geoff Whaling]

"Common sense ... is pure BS"--? Hmmmm. Will need to contemplate that notion for a day or two, Geoff.



I think we should clear up a few things, there is a vast difference between “zero harm” style risk management and “a balanced approach to risk.”

My views are towards “a balanced approach to risk.” I’m not reckless. I’m not risk averse either. I have a very realist approach to acknowledge that “zero harm” is a utopian, very expensive over reaction to risk management. Reed nails my thoughts - Calculated risk factor!

However for “a balanced approach to risk” & “calculated risk factor” to work effectively there has to be education and awareness of hazards and risk plus honesty and respect for those involved. Unfortunately there are some who view a few lives lost as collateral damage.

Here are a few thought provoking quotes,

"The Coroners decision confirms it, there is no ‘common sense’, it can’t be assumed and we shouldn’t talk about it because it dumbs down the industry and perpetuates a delusional myth."

http://www.safetyrisk.net/you-dont-believe-in-common-sense/

"the less training and experience he or she has and the greater the intrinsic danger of the work" - Mr Michael Barnes, State Coroner, Queensland.

"It is my intention to bring about a balanced approach to risk that will have at its heart an emphasis on the importance of communicating risk effectively." Lord Hunt of Kings Heath http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05094.htm

“A key element of risk decision-making is determining if the risk is justified.” (FAA-H-8083-2)

“A reasoned approach gives courage to manage risks not simply avoid them.” David Leggatt, Phillip & Fox http://www.publicadvocate.vic.gov.au/file/file/Research/Forums/2005/RiskRightsForum/Risk_and_Rights_David_Leggatt.pdf

But this link is one of my favorites "Since when did the absence of something demonstrate the presence of something else?" from "All Injuries are Preventable and Other Silly Safety Sayings" - http://www.safetyrisk.net/all-injuries-are-preventable-and-other-silly-safety-sayings/

[Ralph Lindberg]

.... They lock doors, carry weapons, put up fences, and generally waste their lives.
That's really what this entire thread is all about, isn't it?

Two famous turners of my acquaintance had a huge falling out over guy one doing a turning demo, while wearing a 9MM strapped to his hip. Guy two was quite upset over the added risk of "packing" while turning. This happened shortly after guy one made a big thing about not going to the AAW symposium in Conn, due to the state rules about concealed weapons.
Then guy one was invited to demo at that symposium, and did, I remembered his statement, but carefully never mentioned it.

[Marvin Hasenak]

Two famous turners of my acquaintance had a huge falling out over guy one doing a turning demo, while wearing a 9MM strapped to his hip. Guy two was quite upset over the added risk of "packing" while turning. This happened shortly after guy one made a big thing about not going to the AAW symposium in Conn, due to the state rules about concealed weapons.
Then guy one was invited to demo at that symposium, and did, I remembered his statement, but carefully never mentioned it.

That is called PPD, Paranoid Personality Disorder, sounds like he has it so bad that if the powers to be knew it, they would remove his weapons from him based on mental defect.

[Geoff Whaling]

That is called PPD, Paranoid Personality Disorder, sounds like he has it so bad that if the powers to be knew it, they would remove his weapons from him based on mental defect.

Are demo audiences that tough in the USA or do you guys just hold them in rough neighborhoods? Wow don't ask questions and I guess its one way to make sure the demo runs to time. :eek:

[Russell Neyman]

This discussion of "Woodturning Safety" has taken an unexpected turn.

[Hilel Salomon]

I almost added another point to this thread but decided that I had said enough. It's continuation, however, could include another point. Many of the accidents in woodworking, turning and so many other endeavors are a consequence of poor judgement. We hear-rightfully-about drinking and driving and lately about texting while driving. I can't imagine that too many people text and turn at the same time. I do know of people who drink and turn and allow other things to distract them. I always look forward to my single malt at the end of a long day, but under no circumstances do I go back to the lathe. I have also seen how fatigue can be quite dangerous whether it comes while driving or working with dangerous machinery. Good and safe technique is important but I also think that good judgement is equally necessary. If you don't want to call it common sense, call it something else, but its absence can and often does lead to sloppy technique.

[Geoff Whaling]

Like I say, this conversation has taken on a different light. But it's a good one! And a (mostly) healthy one.

It is a good one, balanced, enlightening very constructive. I've had a few tools and a chuck disappear at collaboration style events over the years, some have come back but I do not think their disappearance was intentional theft and not worthy of gun-toting

Hilel raises some very good points. Medications and pre-existing medical conditions should also be considered. That is one of my hazards that I must manage, the cardiac meds I'm on list fatigue & drowsiness as a side effect. It took quite a while for my body to become adjusted to them. Now I do not even consider turning if I feel tired. This scenario plus potential heat exhaustion is believed to have contributed to the death of the Australian wood turner in Dec 2012.

[John Keeton]

There are varied thoughts on the dangers of turning relative to other common activities, and probably a lot of validity on either side. I would add this comment, unsupported by any evidence beyond my own experiences. Most of us, perhaps all of us, have those days when nothing seems to go right. Usually, those days are apparent early on, but we persist in trying to conquer the "forces" - probably related to lack of quality rest, general lack of focus or a myriad of other factors. It took most of a lifetime for me to finally recognize the futility in that effort. Now, when I recognize one of those days, I smile, thank the good Lord for the "hint", lock the door to the shop and spend the remainder of the day doing activities that do not present inherent risk. I have found a much lower injury rate and greater success in completing a quality turning.

[hu lowery]

Geoff,

Some places they put a Plexiglas guard up between the demonstrator's lathe and the crowd to keep stuff flying off the lathe from hitting the crowd. Around here the guard is there to protect the demonstrator from the stuff thrown at him from the audience. Tough crowd!

Hu

[Geoff Whaling]

John that is excellent advice, I'm the same but I discovered that much earlier in life thankfully.

[Geoff Whaling]

I though I would add this comment into the discussion as well,

“Hale 2003 (p 198) argues that emotion must be the basis for concern with health and safety, and that without moral outrage at unnecessary suffering and premature death, health and safety has no purpose or meaning.” – “Something to Think About – Motivations, Attitudes, Perceptions and Skills in Work Health and Safety” - Dr Liz Bluff 2011.

Turning injury and death rates relative to population are insignificant in epidemiology statistics, but they are concerning relative to the numbers of turners.

The AAW and many in the turning community share the view that what a turner does in their own shops is their business, their choice; but they also have empathy for the welfare of their friends and fellow turners.

Things are slowly changing for the better and there is now far less acceptance or tolerance of turners teaching or demonstrating "risky" turning techniques to others at symposia & in clubs. The motivation and interest is about promoting "safer" workshops and turning techniques through education and example - not a desire to control or dictate to others what they should or must do. The subject is emotive – emotions affect what and how we do things. Many of us are perhaps selfish and don’t want to see or experience unnecessary grief or suffering.

This is a turners shared injury notification -
“This was just a small bark inclusion that slightly nicked my tool rest which blow the piece apart. This was a year ago. Broken nose and a few deep cuts. Ct, MRI all clear but holy crap did that hurt both physically and ego wise.”

[Dale Bonertz]

Interesting some of you are picking on carriers of firearms. To many people it is just as natural as putting on a belt. Lots of people strap a knife on their side or keep one in their pocket. Shoot my dad put on his belt and had a holder for a pair of pliers that he wore every day. Not sure why, except he grew up on a farm, he didn't use that often but it sure came in handy when he needed it. I am a contractor and it is not uncommon to see me with a tape measure strapped on my belt.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Folks,

We are not going to debate gun carrying at SMC. It's too political.

[paul cottingham]

Thank you, Ken.

[Steve Huffman]

Just a couple thoughts about the risks we take and accept. We all get into our cars and trucks and drive to work or to the store everyday without a care in the world. Yet people get killed and mangled every single hour of every day, but yet we continue to drive without a second thought. Yes, most of us buckle up, drive the speed limit, and try to be good responsible drivers, but even good drivers can get into bad accidents or killed. As a volunteer firefighter/ems (15 yrs) with a 20 mile stretch of interstate, I seen my share of the mayhem first hand, some preventable, some not. Is wood turning really any different or that dangerous? I think yes and no. There is always some kind of risk in almost all we do everyday when you think about it. I would be willing to bet there are a few on this forum that are wearing a face shield every time they turn on the lathe, but fail to buckle up behind the wheel of their car. One might also use the lathe shield/cage, but then go right out and chainsaw a bowl blank without chaps or face protection. Reducing danger/risk is a choice my friends....... I love to ride motorcycles knowing it is far more dangerous than driving a car or truck, so I have to be more careful in my driving skills, still a higher risk.

Accidents are going to happen, plain and simple, but everyone has to decide I guess what is safe for them in a craft we all seem to enjoy so much. Stay in the Vortex, but think a head just a little bit might prevent a bad day!! :confused: :D

[Geoff Whaling]

Interesting some of you are picking on carriers of firearms.

Definitely not my intention to turn this into a gun debate. My comments were more about "common sense" and safety. We are not familiar with guns because of our Australian legislation so I would never have considered them in a workshop and I would consider now that I do not have any "common sense" about their use, storage, etc.

My apology if I have offended.

[Dale Bonertz]

No offense. My point is that it is no different than wearing a leatherman combo knife, tape measure or anything else you're accustomed to wearing. It is all safe in the Woodturning shop especially if it is covered with shirt smock or ?? Even if not covered these things would be hard to get caught in woodworking equipment.

The thread is about the fear of death in the shop and in particular the lathe use. It has turned into a good safety discussion.

[Russell Neyman]

Ralph's comment was meant to add the bizarre element -- his humor style -- to the conversation. He wasn't really discussing carrying firearms in the wood shop. He's laughing his arse off right now, reading this part of the string.

[Geoff Whaling]

Seems that put a damper on the discussion. :confused:

Lathes probably aren’t the most dangerous “thing” in a wood turners shop – most likely it is the state of housekeeping and our age profile. The typical cause of death for wood turners at the lathe is head injury (TBI). A significant proportion of all hospital admissions for lathe injuries are head & particularly facial injuries.

While researching I came across much thought provoking material, quite a lot about preventing fall type injuries in the over 65 age group. The profile of wood turning enthusiasts differs remarkably from the wider population in that there is an over representation of "older" male persons who like to tinker in messy shops / sheds. The message is quite clear that the increase in fall related injuries is concerning.

“There was an increase in fall-related TBIs among adults aged 65 and older; 46% increase in emergency department visits, 34% increase in hospitalizations, and 27% increase in TBI-related deaths from 2002 to 2006.”

The statistics for fall or “struck by against” related injuries that result in Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI's) for persons aged 65 and over is concerning to medical authorities. When we talk about injury data it is impersonal.

“This body of work is a vital tool for those who devise the strategies for prevention and treatment. However, a critical dimension will be lost if one sees it only as data, if one does not try to put even a fleeting face behind the numbers. They represent people who — if they survived — have had their lives significantly affected.” - Claudia L. Osborn, DO, FACOI College Of Osteopathic Medicine, Michigan State University.

There are 14,000 deaths pa and 81,000 admissions and 142,000 ED visits related to TBI in the USA for the over 65 demographic. Approx 61% are fall related, 6% are “struck by against” and 25% “other”.

“TBI is a contributing factor to a third (30.5%) of all injury-related deaths in the United States”

“About 75% of TBIs that occur each year are concussions or other forms of mild traumatic brain injury (MTBI).”

“Direct medical costs and indirect costs of TBI, such as lost productivity, totaled an estimated $60 billion in the United States in 2000.”

Quotes from “Traumatic Brain Injury in the United States.”

[Izzy Camire]

I don't often say much on the forum but I guess I will.

I was just thinking of purchasing an old lathe and start to learn how to turn. I realize there are risks associated with working in the woodshop but after reading this thread I realize there things about turning I have no knowledge about and perhaps I should not be buying a lathe. Many years ago I worked in a machine shop and often ran a lathe. While all the equipment in a machine shop is dangerous I always thought the lathe presented the most risk but I did learn to work on it safely because there was someone who was experienced that taught me how to safely run the machine.

The problem as I see it is when work in my shop I am alone and I tend to learn by reading and attending workshops and then trying things out. It seems like a lathe has more to it than other machines. I guess after reading this thread I will reconsider buying a lathe.

[Fred Belknap]

Izzy I work on a wood lathe everyday and I do not consider it any more dangerous than most other tools in the shop. The table saw to me is one of the most dangerous woodworking tool. Driving a car is generally dangerous but most of us do it. I learned to turn on my own reading on line and videos. I did several thing wrong but survived. Using common sense, good judgment is a good idea and will keep you out of harms way most of the time. I'm not saying the lathe won't hurt you, but so will the table saw, jointer, bandsaw, drill press, etc. Wood turning is a very rewarding endeavor.

[Russell Neyman]

Fred and Izzy, your exchange has gotten this back on track. My point is that turning is NOT a life-threatening activity and, with a bit of common sense and instruction from somebody who will provide basic instruction, give it a try. Check the American Association of Woodturners (AAW) website and find the chapter nearest to you.

[Steve Huffman]

Well said Fred! Izzy, please read my post above. You can get struck by lightning just walking out the front door, but that's not a reason not to go outside and enjoy yourself outdoors. Just run inside then the storm comes and lightning pops like me! Don't let a few postings here scare from enjoying woodworking of any kind. Respect the tools and the danger they present and be educated on how they work. The lathe and woodturning is my most fun and rewarding part of my wood shop.

[Izzy Camire]

Fred and Steve thanks for the encouragement. I am suppose to go look at an Atlas 7112 on Sunday. It is in excellent shape with new bearings and comes with a dozen Buck Brothers tools.
I know there is a place locally that gives classes on turning there is also a turning group. I guess I will do like I always do just do some reading and be extra cautious and figure it out.
Thanks again.

[Terry Vaughan]

All things are relative, but woodturning is dangerous. The lathe is dangerous, and turning requires the use of other dangerous equipment. Here is Richard Raffan in 'Turning wood':

On my left hand I have a scar across two fingers from a bandsaw and one on my thumb from jamming it between the lathe bed and a large platter. On my right hand are three broken knuckles from sanding a large platter (this happened twice), I had a broken nose from a shattering burr elm bowl and a permanent lump from the time I headed a piece of flying teak back towards the lathe. A flying bowl smashed my shatterproof spectacle lens, leaving me with cuts and a black eye. one piece of an exploding 10 inch nearly completed burl bowl took a lump of flesh out of my left forearm, while another hit my face shield and left me dazed......Dust (from pressure treated and spalted wood) affected my breathing

This is the experience of a highly experienced professional, so it's no good pretending that turning is safe. The point is that it didn't stop him and it shouldn't stop any reasonably handy person. People need to understand the processes, recognise the hazards and make sure they know how to control them. Then it is down to being careful. The problem is that very few turners get any training that includes safety, so have to work it out for themselves, using common sense and by watching videos and reading books. Generally you are in control of what you are doing and should work with care and within your confidence level. I think one important rule is to walk before you run - turn only small items until you know what you are doing.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

[QUOTE=" I think one important rule is to walk before you run - turn only small items until you know what you are doing.[/QUOTE]

Yes! Hopefully no one will be put off from turning by reading this thread! If you start small, even total disasters are unlikely to hurt you.
Small bowls, handles, boxes and pens can be turned very safely. (Ok I won't rule out some 1 in a billion freak accident, but with these constraints you face more danger on the commute to work!)

So jump in, take classes and have fun!

[Geoff Whaling]

Izzy get some instruction and enjoy woodturning. It is only as unsafe as the turner makes it. Being forewarned and having access to reliable information and a good mentor is a big help.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Few things in life don't exhibit some form of danger. The goal isn't necessarily to avoid those things but rather reduce the chances of one becoming a statistic regardless of what you are doing.

One of the most dangerous things I ever experienced was falling from the mast of a US Navy ship while working on the navigational radar. I had been up the mast of that ship many times working on that radar. All the electronics except for the radar monitor were rotating with the radar antenna. At the time, the Navy had a requirement that if you went aloft you HAD to wear a safety harness. It wasn't required that you use the attached safety rope and tie off....just wear the harness.. I hadn't tied off yet. This time, I was using a DC powered oscilloscope to monitor the video output while I tuned the receiver. I tied off. I was watching the o'scope and mechanically tuning the cavity of a klystron when my thumb made contact with the 1000 vdc on the repeller of the klystron. The next thing I knew I was hanging by that safety rope.

A couple years ago while using a routing template and routing half lap joints into some 2x4's I got a phone call. Shutting off the router, I answered the phone. One of my DILs had survived her 4th major surgery in 6 months. I went back to work routing another 1/4" of the current joint. I shut off the router, flipped it over, released the lock and as I plunged the router base down to the final depth, I looked across the room at the phone thinking about the rough period of time my son and DIL were going through. The bit hadn't stopped when I drove it into my right wrist. It required 14 stitches to close the resultant wound and the good news is I have a very small numb spot but that is the only permanent damage other than a large scar.

Since I started putting more emphasis on sharp manual tools, I have cut myself more often than previously I did.

If you are considering turning, find a local club, get a mentor. Turners are a generous bunch by nature. Don't be scared, be aware and prepare. Think things out before you take action. Turning is the most immediately gratifying type of woodworking IMO. In a matter of as little as an hour or two, you can be enjoying a completed project.