First table saw recommendation?

[Mark Tsujihara]

Hello all,

I'm new to SMC, and I look forward to learning a lot from all of you.

I'm a newly-wed 30 year old engineer, and I am in the process of kicking the automobiles and junk out of a perfectly good two car garage to build a workshop. My wife has been nice enough to consent to a Festool ATF 55 saw, MFT 800 table, CT 33 dust collector, and OF1400 router so far. :)

As I save for my next purchase and plan my shop layout, I am considering what my table saw will be. I understand everyone has their favorites, and I have looked at Jet, Powermatic, Grizzly, Delta, etc. My wife is also highly interested in the Sawstop (she's a mite concerned for my digits). I hate buying more than one tool because I cheaped out on the first one. That's why I convinced my wife to let me buy the Festool stuff. Most of the guys at the woodworking group I belong to have a drawer full of routers, etc. That drives me nuts :) I prefer to save for the best I can get.

If you knew then what you know now, and if you had one saw to buy for the rest of your life/career that would meet your needs for furniture building and construction work, what would it be?

Thanks for your input.

Mark

[Ian Barley]

Hello all,

I'm new to SMC, and I look forward to learning a lot from all of you.

I'm a newly-wed 30 year old engineer, and I am in the process of kicking the automobiles and junk out of a perfectly good two car garage to build a workshop. My wife has been nice enough to consent to a Festool ATF 55 saw, MFT 800 table, CT 33 dust collector, and OF1400 router so far. :)

As I save for my next purchase and plan my shop layout, I am considering what my table saw will be. ...
Mark

Mark

Let me be the first to welcome you to the creek. You will get lots of great information here - I know I do.

I am not best placed to discuss the different brand and model options but there are a few folks here who will tell you that they are managing quite well without a table saw at all by using their guided circular saws - just like that Festool you have already purchased. You may be better off putting your early dollars into another machine - bandsaw? planer? jointer? All of these do tasks which you would not be able to do with your current kit.

Tell us a bit more about the kind of woodworking you want to do - it will help to get a better picture of what might suit.

[Dev Emch]

As a commercial kitchen builder, my vote goes to the martin T-73.

As a hobbyist who builds furniture in the gargage, I have a few choices...

These are all used so the prices are not nearly as bad as when new:)
These have been getting more cost effective lately due to the larger size...

1). Martin T-17
2). Oliver 232 (smallest of the bunch)
3). Oliver 88 (any of the 88 series)
(The 88 is my favorate large format saw)
4). Oliver 260 (any of the 260 series)
(This beast has two motors that can hold two blades... one rip and and one cross. Motors rotate on a turret and you dial up which one you need.)

5). Oliver 270 or 370 (370 was a military version of the 270)
6). Nothfield #4 (any #4 series*)
7). Tannewitz

These are smaller cabinet saws that do an excellent job for hobby use...

1). Powermatic 66
2). Older Unisaw (I dont like the unisaws from circa 2002 and above)
3). General 350 or 650. (This is my top pick for saws of this class)
(Also note that the 650 is a left tilt version of the 350).

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

....Most of the guys at the woodworking group I belong to have a drawer full of routers, etc. That drives me nuts :) I prefer to save for the best I can get.
Mark

Having a lot of routers isn't necessarily the result of buying 'wrong' to begin with...depending on what you do, having several is very handy, and often just plain smart.

As to the tablesaw, I think your missus is smart to think 'Sawstop'. If I were buying a non-sliding tablesaw today, it'd be a Sawstop.

KC

[Mike Cutler]

Mark. Welcome to Sawmill Creek. I like the advice that Dev gave ya'. All of those are nice saws that would serve you a lifetime. Your wife has excellent advice also. The Sawstop is a very nice tablesaw, even without the blade brake.
You may want to check the thread on European Style saws that has been going on the last few days, alot of really great alternatives there also.
KC is right about routers though, just cause you got a drawer full, doesn't mean ya' messed up. I have 4, and use them all for different things,
Once agian, welcome.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Well I'm fairly new here as well, and all I can say is that I envy your choices in the US.

here in Japan my choices were so poor I paid UPS to bring me a DeWalt 744 BT saw.
http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/shop_view1.jpg

I like it, but it is NOT a cab saw!!!

Good luck, I really think that for what you are doing you cannot go wrong with almost any of the saws out there.

Cheers!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mark....Welcome to the Creek! Neat place to exchange information!

Table saws...........one of the most discussed and probably "cussed" subjects here. You can do a search with table saws and cabinet saws for subjects and read a lot of previous threads on those subjects.

Sawstop has been heavily discussed thread here. Bottom line....probably the safest saw currently on the market.....those SMCer's that have one will probably tell you it's of exceptional quality...

The bottom...bottom line....you'd probably be very happy with one ....the cost is substantially more than other great saws without the blade brake.

Again....Welcome to the Creek!

[scott spencer]

If the new technology and overall cost of the Saw Stop deter you, I'd definitely look at the General 650 or new PM2000. Should be all you ever need as a hobbyist. If $2k is more than you want to spend, consider a newer hybrid for < $1k. (GI, Sears, Delta...)

Good luck and welcome aboard!

[Thomas Becknell]

hi mark, welcome to the creek. i haven't been here too long myself but i have learned a lot from these good folks:D

[Rob Russell]

Sawstop has been heavily discussed thread here. Bottom line....probably the safest saw currently on the market.....those SMCer's that have one will probably tell you it's of exceptional quality...


I'd would say that the Sawstop may be the safest cabinet saw on the market. I would dispute that it's the safest, because I feel that the european sliding table saws are safer. That's why I bought one.

Sawstop stops the saw when your hands hit the blade.
Euro-sliders keep your hands away from the blade.

Having said that ...

Mark - welcome to the Creek. If you really are the type to save your $ and cry once, buy once - look at the combination or semi-combination machines. Minimax, Felder and Kanpp are the big 3 and can take a serious bite out of your wallet. I personally chose Felder, but going that route means doing your homework and actually getting your hands on some equipment. You want to take your time deciding which you want if you go that route, and would probably need to do so anyway because you can spend some serious $ on the euro machines.

Rob

[Keith Hooks]

I've got the DW746 and it's served me well for the past couple years. It's accurate and sturdy and has enough power for what I've needed it for. When I upgrade, I'm going to look for a saw with a true riving knife and more solid fence system. I've been eyeing the SawStop as well.

But, once I compliment the shop with a good bandsaw and GCSS, the table saw will probably see a lot less use.

[Jim Fancher]

I'm wondering how much use a table saw would be once you got the hang of the Festool setup. Their applications overlap quite a bit, it seems. It looks like the Festool setup is more efficient, safer and cleaner than a table saw.

My vote would be for a jointer, planer and bandsaw. You'd use the heck out of those no matter what projects you work on.

If I had it all to do over again, I'd probably go with Festool if my pockets were deep, or EZSmart Guide which looks like an excellent product too. A table saw takes up a ton of real estate in a garage shop. The intial cost is high too.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Rob.....sorry I forgot to take into consideration the Euro-saws and/or the combination machines. For the average hobbiest the prices on these make them almost unaffordable. You can also argue that the loss of digits is unaffordable. In short.....if money wasn't an obstacle I'd do a lot of things different.

[Frank Hagan]

Sawstop has a contractor's style saw coming out this winter (see their site at http://www.sawstop.com/products-contractor-saw.htm), but its too early to tell if it will be worth the $800 plus $250 for a fence system.

If its of the same quality reported for their cabinet saw, that will be my next saw. Can't justify the $2500 for a cabinet saw for the type of stuff I do, but the safety and quality reported for the Sawstop is sure attractive. A high quality, safer contractor's style saw at about $1,000 would be very nice.

[Mark Singer]

Mark,

The SawStop looks very good and I like the safety..
I have a Powermatic 66 and it is a great saw also.

[lou sansone]

just to add to the mix of old american iron that Dev gave should be the rockwell / delta RT 40

definitly a beast

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=18836

not for every one but it has its place

lou

[Dan Stuewe]

I'll throw out my current table saw plan...

I currently have a used Craftsman "hybrid" (mix between a direct drive job site and a contractor saw. I've had it for 8 or 9 years and i've wanted to replace it for 7 or 8 years. Right now I'd like to replace it with the new Craftsman top-of-the-line hybrid (1 3/4 HP with biesemeyer fence). My ultimate, never need to replace choices are the Saw Stop or a Mini-Max combo. But since there is very little way I could justify those price tags (assuming I never have a bad accident that would have been avoided with the saftey devices on these saws) with my current woodworking, i'll continue to dream of getting one of those when the last college bill is paid (probably 20 years from now).

[frank shic]

mark, there are a TON of great tablesaws out there! it sure is confusing trying to pick one out, isn't it? i went through this entire ordeal last year and wound up with the powermatic 64 contractor saw which has worked great for me but since that time, there have been a couple of saws that i would have considered if i had the opportunity.

the sawstop is hands down the :p SAFEST saw in the world. it's true that the brake will DESTROY your saw blade if it fires, but aren't your fingers worth more than that $100 you shelled out for that forrest woodworker 2?

ridgid's got a FANTASTIC deal with their new table saw going at $549 with an AMAZING mobile base - go ahead and step on it a couple of times the next time you're visiting home depot!

someone mentioned the craftsman hybrid and it's taken the high marks - at least per workbench magazine - in that arena. i checked it out the other day and i could not believe how much LESS room it occupies than my contractor's saw. you can knock the price down to <$600 if you stack coupons and wait for the right deal!

all this being said, i'm not sure how well any of these newer saws would accomodate the delta sliding table which i recently mounted to my table saw. if you want EXCELLENT crosscutting ability on your table saw, you might want to consider one of the older contractor saws like jet, delta or powermatic so that you can mount the table. you could probably do it with any of the newer models if you were willing to spend time on the mods. you could and probably would build the whole thing if you were stu ablett!!!

don't forget to review basic safety: no crosscutting with the rip fence, etc...

good luck! :p

[Michael Sloan]

Hi Mark,

Three questions: 1) How big is your budget? 2) How much room do you have? and 3) What do you expect to be building?

With respect to table saws, if your budget is anywhere between $1,500 to $3,000 I would break the bank to get the saw stop. Seems to be very well designed and built even in the absense of the brake, and the riving knife alone adds enough safety to justify the additional expense (only my opinion, of course). If you can justify more, and if you have the room, I would step up to a good Euro slider.

Since you have the Festool setup, I would think about whether the table saw should be your next investment. Personally, I would probably go with a good 16 inch bandsaw, and then a jointer/planer combination before adding the table saw.

When you add the table saw, don't forget dust collection.

Mike

[Andrew Ault]

It is always preferable to save for and purchase the best tool for your purposes. There are limits to what is practical. In my case budget and space preclude the purchase of the loftiest dream tools. It is great to purchase what you want, but it takes experience to learn what that is and to justify the expense.

A couple of weeks ago I was able to purchase a used Delta Unisaw with 52" Beisemeyer fence and mobile base for a very good price. I've desired a good cabinet saw for a long time and I am not disappointed with it at all. I'm preparing to install a router insert in the extension table. While it takes up a lot of space in the half a garage I use for my shop, it is wonderful to make safer and easier cuts in sheet goods. I will add as much function as I can to it as with the router table and possibly some storage. The fence is just great, heavy and square to the blade. I'm installing a T-track for Board Buddies and making/adapting the jigs I like to use.

Since you are in a large metropolitan area, you might check out Craigslist and other sources for used tools. Many times tools were purchased for one purpose and then are sold. This allows one to upgrade at a good cost and to sell the old tool. If you buy used, you can recover all of the money when you upgrade.

[Mark Tsujihara]

Holy cow! Thanks everyone for your input. This is certainly the most responsive forum I've been on :).

In response to several questions about budget, space, and my plans:

The garage is a two car attached garage, about 24 x 28, with 8' ceilings at one side, going up to 18' at the other.

My budget is variable, most likely up to $5000. My wife buys quality in her sewing and craft tools, so she understands when I want to avoid expensive hardware mistakes. I tend to overbuy with the expectation that I will grow into the capacity of the machine.

Woodworking plans: My father builds furniture up in Chicago in his spare time, and I would like to continue in his footsteps. I am mostly interested in building practical projects for use around the house (desks, builtins, cabinets, etc.) I am also remodelling the entire house one room at a time by myself, so whatever I buy will need to handle structural work without complaint (LVLs, GluLam beams, etc.) Eventually, I would like to build Japanese-style furniture to incorporate into our house, and potentially sell (shoji, fusuma, tea tables, tansu, etc.)

Shop plans: I plan on upgrading house electrical to 200A service and installing a subpanel in the garage. I will insulate the whole shebang, and cover it with maybe shiplap pine on the walls and white drywall on the ceiling to brighten it up. I have to maintain 5/8" fire-rated drywall on the wall adjoining the house, but the building dept. said anything goes for the rest. I am going to see if I can relocate the washer/dryer into a new room when I remodel.

Tool plans: Aside from the saw, I am looking at getting the new Grizzly cyclone DC (3 hp). That should suck anything I can produce. Have not made up my mind on the jointer or planer. That's one thing the combo machines like the Robland have going for them. I already have a 10" Craftsman CMS and Delta variable speed bench grinder (courtesy of my wood club's raffle :) ).

The Festool stuff is great, but I don't think you can do dados, box joints, etc. on the 55 saw. I suppose I can use my OF1400 router to do them instead.

I am going to a lathe class later this month, I expect to be hooked on turning afterward :)

Thanks again,

Mark

[John Dingman]

Hi Mark!

Welcome to the Creek! You will find some great folks and some very sound advice here. Sounds like you are off to a good running start. I have a Unisaw. If I had it to do over again I would buy it again. I like your approach to the hobby. I try to buy a tool that I know will last me the rest of my life. It may cost a little more out of the gate, but in the long run, I believe you will come out ahead. Best of luck to you in your new shop!

Kind regards,
John

[Dan Forman]

Mark---I would put the priority on a good jointer and planer at this point, unless you want to get into neander work with handplanes. Being able to work with rough lumber and mill it to your own specs is a huge advantage. Every piece of wood out there has some deree of warp, cup, or twist in it. With your budget, I might suggest looking at the Oasis 8" jointer (Delta DJ20 clone), and either the Dewalt 3 knife planer (forgot the madel #) or a 15" planer form one of the usual suspects. After that, a good 16" bandsaw from Minimax or Laguna should round you out pretty well. A table saw would be nice, but you can duplicate most of the functions with the Festool stuff.

When you do the poser thing, make sure to install enough 220v circuits to cover your larger tools, plus a spare or two for expansion (like when you finally get that table saw).

Dan

[Bud Duffy]

Mark here is the best tip of the bunch if you are going to take a lathe class you might just as well save yourself a whole lot of time and sell all that flat work junk you will have no further use for and buy a bandsaw . Oh yea you will spend about four to ten times the money you spend for the lathe on assesorys and tools. You my friend are DOOMED and dont even know it yet for the slope is very steep and even more slippery!!! Welcome to the creek!
Bud

[Don Baer]

I agree with Bud. Your gonna want a bandsaw when you get into turning. I am getting one and am yet to turn my first tinggie. I got the Lathe, Got the tools, and now a bandsaw in the near future.
I just gotta get over their and pic it up.

:D

[Corey Hallagan]

Welcome to SMC. I can't add anything that will help you on a table saw choice but good luck and enjoy the site!

Corey

[scott spencer]

Mark here is the best tip of the bunch if you are going to take a lathe class you might just as well save yourself a whole lot of time and sell all that flat work junk you will have no further use for and buy a bandsaw . Oh yea you will spend about four to ten times the money you spend for the lathe on assesorys and tools....(snip)
Bud

What's a lathe?

:D

[Paul B. Cresti]

Mark,
I am not sure it fits your budget currently but did you ever consider a European full combo. You can get all quality machines in one. I do not want mention and manufacturers, as of yet, (one comes to my mind ;) ) but these machines offer great value in relation to the capacity and quality of the machine you can get vs separates of equal size. Sometimes it is nice to know all the possible options there are so then you can make a decision based upon what suits your needs.

[Rob Russell]

Mark,
I am not sure it fits your budget currently but did you ever consider a European full combo. You can get all quality machines in one. I do not want mention and manufacturers, as of yet, (one comes to my mind ;) ) but these machines offer great value in relation to the capacity and quality of the machine you can get vs separates of equal size. Sometimes it is nice to know all the possible options there are so then you can make a decision based upon what suits your needs.

Pssst - Paul - check out my response at a bit after 10 this morning ;)

Mak,

I will say it again and especially since your budget looks like it will allow it - check out the combo machines.

Given the Festool stuff you have, you could go the semi-combo route and buy a 12"-16" jointer/planer as your next machine and save for a saw/shaper later on.

Rob

[Dev Emch]

Lou...
Your correct on the RT-40. That is a beast! What I did notice in looking at the photos again was that it has a unisaw layout in terms of where its mitre slots are placed. Most of the stuff I mentioned do not have a standard slot layout. And its got 7.5 HP. The extra power is nice. Dont think you need it? Just wait when your ripping 2 or 3 inch thick slabs of maple or oak and the saw does not even notice it!!!!! That will turn your attitude in a hurry.

[Dan Forman]

Seems like Mark said his overall budget was $5,000. He will be needing a lot of other smaller pieces which will add up fast, plus a bandsaw, DC, not to mention wood for projects. I would have loved to recommend a combo machine too, but last time I checked the entry level full combo from Mini Max is close to 9 grand with shipping. Even just the 14" J/P is still $500 over budget before shipping. Do you guys know something that I don't? (This is a rhetorical question,please refrain form taking the cheap shot, I left myself wide open) :D

Mark, the other thing to consider is it's not too late to revise your budget, if that's possible. I went (am still going) through the same thing, putting a shop together from scratch. I too didn't want to have to upgrade any equipment later, for the same reasons, in addition to the fact that I am working in my basement, and it's hard enough to get things down there, let alone back up again. I have had to significantly exceed my original expectations, though I had never really set a bottom line for how much to spend. Though $5,000 sounds like (and is!) a lot of money, it may not get you a shop full of lifetime machines (and don't forget the handtools). This is not meant to discourage, you can still get along quite nicely if you buy carefully, but you might not have the big names on all of your equipment. My earlier suggestions should easily fit into your budget, and still leave enough for a scrap of wood. You should not take my word though, do your own research into these tools. A Grizzly 8" jointer has gotten a very good review in the new American Woodworker, and is available with their spiral cutter head. They have a new model out now which is even less than the G500, with a few improvements to boot. I would probably go that way over the Oasis which I mentioned earlier.

Dan

[Mark Tsujihara]

Thanks everyone, lots of good information!

First of all, the $5000 was just a starting place for the big center piece of my shop. This is a lifetime investment for me, so if $20,000 buys me something that serves me for 60 years, I'd call it a bargain. The combo tools really intrigue me, since my shop is pretty small. How well do they hold up over time? I would guess that they can be expensive to service (more complexity = greater cost, generally). I've heard that combos generally do not do as good a job at any one process compared to dedicated machines, but I don't know if that just applies to Shopsmiths :). (no offense to SS owners, of course)

I will be heading to a wood show in November with my club, so hopefully I can get my hands on a combo machine and see if I like it. I may also hop down to Irvine and leave a puddle of drool in Laguna Machine. :)

Mark

[Rob Russell]

Mark,

If you're able and willing to go the $20K for combos - that's a marvelous option open to you that frankly isn't to most folks.

There are a couple of woodworking forums that I'd suggest you join - the Felder Owner's Group and the Mini-Max Owners Group. They are both on Yahoo Groups and are "private" groups, which means you register to join and one of the group moderators adds you to the access list. I think Laguna (also seller of Knapp) has their own forum based off of their website. Both the FOG and MOG are open to prospective buyers - you don't need to actually own a machine before you join those forums. Spend some time going through the posts on those forums. Both sets have folks who are none too shy about bitching about high $ machines and what they consider to be inadequate service from the vendor. There are also the inevitable "we" vs. "they" comparisons.

There's a Felder showroom in Sacremento if you happen to be up in that area. A showroom is a good place to see the machines because you can get time with someone who is familiar with the machines to go through why the combos/semi-combos work well without the commotion of a show. I'm not pushing Felder in this case, but the showroom where you can spend time.

More importantly, both Felder and MiniMax will give you referrals to machine owners in your area who will be more than happy to let you see the machines in a shop environment and talk about the product with no saleman around.

The european machines are at a level that's flatly above anything coming out of Taiwan or the USA. You'll be somewhat taken aback the first time you see one of the machines and try the sliding table or look at some of the other engineering.

If you go this route - take your time and do your research. To be blunt, buying a full-on Felder combo is more complicated than buying a car - it has as many or more options and many of the options are things you won't be as familiar with as those you'd decide about on a car. The MiniMax machines don't offer quite as many options - closer to a preset package approach - but you need to decide which package and then options you want. I'm not saying that the MM machines aren't good - just that they don't offer the same number of options. If the options aren't things you care about, the MM machines can be less expensive than the Felders. If you go the european combo route, no matter what manufacturer you end up choosing - this isn't a simple choice of "left tilt or right tilt and how many horsepower" sort of thing.

Good luck!

Rob

[Paul B. Cresti]

Thanks everyone, lots of good information!

First of all, the $5000 was just a starting place for the big center piece of my shop. This is a lifetime investment for me, so if $20,000 buys me something that serves me for 60 years, I'd call it a bargain. The combo tools really intrigue me, since my shop is pretty small. How well do they hold up over time? I would guess that they can be expensive to service (more complexity = greater cost, generally). I've heard that combos generally do not do as good a job at any one process compared to dedicated machines, but I don't know if that just applies to Shopsmiths :). (no offense to SS owners, of course)

I will be heading to a wood show in November with my club, so hopefully I can get my hands on a combo machine and see if I like it. I may also hop down to Irvine and leave a puddle of drool in Laguna Machine. :)

Mark

Mark,
Oh that is a different story then if you are willing/able to spend more now than over time. Lets face it guys if you add up all the $ you spent over the years you will come close or supersede the cost of a full European combo or even a pair of combos (saw/shaper & jointer/planer). The European combo's, assuming you get a good brand, is no where near a Shopsmith. I too do not want to offend anyone but if you used each one side by side you would know what I mean.
Like I suggested look at all the company's options, talk to owners and go look at the machines also add in the companys service and ability to quickly respond to your needs. If money does come to play as the major factor in the end the full combo is the best answer via the European machine route. I feel the best solution for a hobbiest is the saw/shaper and joiner/planer combos. They cost more but I think they create better workflow.
Either way do not rush into this and think your only options are the "American style" machines. I have one more piece of advice do not shop on price alone especially if you want quality machinery.

[Steve Rowe]

Thanks everyone, lots of good information!

First of all, the $5000 was just a starting place for the big center piece of my shop. This is a lifetime investment for me, so if $20,000 buys me something that serves me for 60 years, I'd call it a bargain. The combo tools really intrigue me, since my shop is pretty small. How well do they hold up over time? I would guess that they can be expensive to service (more complexity = greater cost, generally). I've heard that combos generally do not do as good a job at any one process compared to dedicated machines, but I don't know if that just applies to Shopsmiths :). (no offense to SS owners, of course)

I will be heading to a wood show in November with my club, so hopefully I can get my hands on a combo machine and see if I like it. I may also hop down to Irvine and leave a puddle of drool in Laguna Machine. :)

Mark
Mark, your effort to define a one time purchase of your shop centerpiece is admirable. Hopefully, you will be much more successful at this than I was. Over the past 25 years, I have had 4.75 different tablesaws (one was a Shopsmith). Last year I consolidated many machines into a Felder CF741SP combo. The European combos do as good a job as a standalone system however, you will sacrifice a small amount of time converting between some operations. I don't regret my purchase for one second however, with my current knowledge, I probably should have gone with the saw/shaper combo and the jointer/planer combo as separates. Please understand that saws with sliders and outriggers take a lot of space. Since you indicate your shop is small, ensure that you have sufficient working room for the slider if you go this route.
Steve

[Jim Becker]

I also admire your willingness to consider investing in the "last" machine(s) you will buy for your shop now if it makes sense for you to do so. So I'll also suggest you look at the Euro combos...they are nothing like the ShopSmith and its clones where compromise was the rule rather than the exception. (I'm not knocking those machines...they provided many people the means to do quality woodworking in a compact space and did what they could do well)

How you approach buying combos depends on how you work. Some folks are perfecly comfortable with a 5-function combo in the center of the shop. Others prefer the Jointer/Planer/mortiser combo to be a separate machine with a saw/shaper as the other half. (I'm in the latter catagory as I continually bounce between the jointer and the TS, not to mention that configuration also fits in my shop...a full combo will not due to a stairwell in the middle rear of the space) Companies like Felder and MiniMax can easily provide you either configuration. Please note that this is not a matter of switchover (only the shaper, for the most part, takes longer than a minute or two) but just workshop technique. Pick what is best for the way you work!

[Michael Sloan]

Ahh...Now we have enough information to work with. Lifetime investment. Modest sized shop (but not tiny). Starting with large, slightly rough projects (home renovation), moving to fine furniture. Budget for high quality equipment.

Next questions:

1) Are you ready to do it all at once? or do you want to space it out over a 3-5 year period?

2) How serious do you plan to be about the lathe?

You are in roughly the same situation that I was in when I upgraded my shop a couple of years ago. I lived for a long time with a J/P and a bandsaw, but no table saw due to space constraints. When I moved to a garage shop, I upgraded to a full Euro combo, added better dust collection, a good lathe, and a bigger bandsaw.

My thoughts:

1) Design your shop early for good dust collection. I would go ahead with the cyclone. Talk to Oneida before deciding. Budget about $1,200+ including minimal ducting.

2) You are going to need a jointer and a planer as soon as you want to make anything from solid wood. I prefer the combination jointer planers, since you get a much wider jointer that matches the planer, and the combination minimizes shop space requirements. In addition, you get more equipment for the money (just my opinion), since you only need one motor, one cabinet, etc... Cost, somewhere between $4,500 and $7,500.

This could be part of a complete Euro combo, or a seperate. Seperates have some attraction due to flexibility, and also the ability to stage the purchases. However the full combo (which I have) is more space efficient for most shops (some would disagree), and also somewhat less expensive than the equivalent TS/Shaper and J/P seperates. Full combo costs $12,000 - $20,000+.

3) My bandsaw is as essential as anything else in my shop. I would not go less than one of the heavy duty 16 inch saws, particularly if you are planning on doing much turning. Budget ($1,500 to $2,500+) + $300 for blades. This would be in my shop very early on, as it is useful for almost everything that I do.

4) Lathe - $1,500 +, plus at another $1,000+ for tools, helmet/air filter, chainsaw, etc.... Are you going to have much time for this before the house renovation is done? Turning is addictive and time consuming.

5) Table saw - Euro Slider $5,500+. Could also be a TS/Shaper combination, or part of the full combination. Would be handy for the house renovation, but maybe not required since you have the Festool setup. I might consider an inexpensive contractor saw to start with just for the house renovation, and then upgrade. However, the slider is sure nice to have for big stuff, and would be much more stable/safe relative to the contractor saw.

6) Don't forget to budget for your hand tools (planes, combination squares, chisels, handsaws. Initial budget $500 - $1,500.

Of course, most recreational woodworkers would not put this much money into their shops, and there are a lot of woodworkers that build things that put my best efforts to shame in shops put together at a fraction of this cost.

Have fun.

[Sam Blasco]

Well I'm fairly new here as well, and all I can say is that I envy your choices in the US.

here in Japan my choices were so poor I paid UPS to bring me a DeWalt 744 BT saw.
http://www.ablett.jp/workshop/images/shop_view1.jpg

I like it, but it is NOT a cab saw!!!

Good luck, I really think that for what you are doing you cannot go wrong with almost any of the saws out there.

Cheers!

I BUILT MY FIRST TWO KITCHENS FOR HIRE ON A BENCH TOP/WORKSITE SAW. THOSE WOULD BE SOME GOOD PICTURES IF I HAD THOUGHT TO TAKE THEM BACK THEN -- FOUR ROLLER STANDS AND A 4'X4' SLED, USING BOTH MITER SLOTS. IT GOT THE JOB DONE AND I STILL HAVE THAT SAW IN MY HOME GARAGE. I GOT THE JETLAMATIC CAB SAW WITH THE PROCEEDS FROM THAT SECOND KITCHEN AND ULTIMATELY THE SLIDER IN MY THIRD YEAR. EACH TOOL WORKED AS ADVERTISED, WITH NO COMPLAINTS FROM ME, THOUGH I WON'T GIVE UP MY SLIDER WITHOUT A FIGHT NOW. BUY WHAT YOU CAN AFFORD AT THE TIME, BUT IF YOU HAVE THE DOUGH NOW AND WANT TO TRY AND SKIP THROUGH MANY STEPS OF SHOP EVOLUTION -- GO FOR IT.

[Mark Tsujihara]

Kazumi (my wife) is fine with a MiniMax, it looks like. Turns out she had already considered buying one for her father several years ago. :) What a gem!

I've seen some numbers thrown around on the board as far as the costs go, and they don't seem to match the MiniMax website. The CU 300 Smart lists at $12,195. Do they have a lot of sales, or something?

What are the gotta-have options for the MiniMax?

I think the Knapp is a bit of a stretch, but may be still doable. I may have to rebuild another house or two before she OKs that one, I think. :D I will still take a trip down to Laguna Tools for a drool session. Maybe I'll take my wife too. :)

I don't know much about Felder at all. I'll have to do some poking around on the web.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Mark

[Paul B. Cresti]

Kazumi (my wife) is fine with a MiniMax, it looks like. Turns out she had already considered buying one for her father several years ago. :) What a gem!

I've seen some numbers thrown around on the board as far as the costs go, and they don't seem to match the MiniMax website. The CU 300 Smart lists at $12,195. Do they have a lot of sales, or something?

What are the gotta-have options for the MiniMax?

I think the Knapp is a bit of a stretch, but may be still doable. I may have to rebuild another house or two before she OKs that one, I think. :D I will still take a trip down to Laguna Tools for a drool session. Maybe I'll take my wife too. :)

I don't know much about Felder at all. I'll have to do some poking around on the web.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

Mark

Mark,
No you are correct on the prices. They did have sales on their machines due to the AWFS in Vegas this past week but I am not sure if their sale prices are still in affect, it would be best to talk to them. One of the really good things about MM machines is all the viable "options" come with the machines. The things you can change is the length of the slider, single or three phase.... Within the combo machines you have choices in sizes. After going through the basic & upgraded design changes between the machines the MM combo line up really break down to a 12" j/p, 14" j/p and a 16"j/p version. The each vary a little in how something is done/changed a knob may be differrent etc... I know if I had to sell my separates and not do this professionaly I would have the CU410 Elite, it is a beast. Check out the MM users group on Yahoo. I own a lot of their machines (and they have alot of my money!) so I guess I am just a wee bit biased :rolleyes: