Fumbling noob French cleat shelving

[Ryan Bodnarchuk]

ok, so I am soooo noob that I have not even done a dovetail joint yet. I have always enjoyed building and doing stuff, but more of a "don't measure", "slap it together" with the cheapest wood I can and be done with it.... Seeing what is produced here has made me come to my senses.

I had made a very basic cabinet for my garage that was not even close to being square, each shelf had to be trimmed to fit and nothing was 90 degrees... so I ripped that down and started over.

Currently making a French cleat system of various sized boxes to be used as my shelving unit on the wall. I can get a lot more creative this way and size the boxes for the piles of stuff I need to store... mostly all the tools I picked up this year for woodworking.

Here is the start... and I already screwed up a couple glue ups... I rushed it.

1. I made all the wall cleats and box cleats at the same time... at least I got that right. did about a 35 degree cut instead of a 45... just for the hell of it.
2. also trying different finishes... I finished the wall mounted cleats in dark walnut danish oil. One heavy coat and that was it... it's just for the garage remember.
3. started the boxes, here is where I messed up a little, but the next glue ups will be better.

Basically , then entire wall will have these boxes, all double cleated, 3/4 inch pine plywood, finished on both sides... a little fancier then the construction grade stuff I used to use... I have not graduated to spend my money on birch ply yet.

As you can see, the warp / skew in the box is very evident when I have them beside each other.... so I will have these in different areas , or hide in the corner.

For getting the boxes straight on the glue up. I was thinking of making braces to put on the inside of the box as I clamp it... then I expect it to stay straight. do you think this would work.

This is not furniture grade and only using mid grade plywood. I have to organize all my crap before I can really do some better work. each box will have the same height and be able to sit at level or 1/2 level. I think it is ok.... but could use any tips you all might have

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[Phil Thien]

As you can see, the warp / skew in the box is very evident when I have them beside each other.... so I will have these in different areas , or hide in the corner.


Now you're learning!

Two cleats is really unnecessary. And it is unlikely you will be able to get the distance between them perfect so they mesh with all rows of wall cleats (because there is likely some variance in the cleat-to-cleat distances on the wall). So you could find that moving a box from one row to another (on the wall) that the double cleats on the box no longer mesh with the ones on the wall.

I suggest a single (top!) cleat, and don't worry about the bottom. If you place a cabinet/box on the bottom-row of wall-cleats and need bottom support to prevent dropping, just tack a piece of plywood to the back with a pinner.

BTW the boxes can be shimmed if sitting next to each other. You can only go so far on this, but slight misalignment on side-by-side cabinets/boxes can often be concealed this way. I've used thin scraps of wood and even that thin cardboards that dress shirts are wrapped in.

[Kent A Bathurst]

For getting the boxes straight on the glue up. I was thinking of making braces to put on the inside of the box as I clamp it... then I expect it to stay straight. do you think this would work.

Yeah, you only need one cleat. Leave all the wall cleats as is, but put only the top one on the box. The lower wall cleat will make the box hang plumb.


On braces for square boxes: Two simple ways to do this:

Make some squares out of plywood - say, 5" x 5". They have to be square.

Cut corner-to-corner for 2 triangles.

Cut off the first 1/2" - 3/4" of the apex of the triangle - place for glue to go without gluing the brace to the box.

In the middle of each 5" side, drill a hole - 1" or so. This will recieve the head of a clamp, so figure out how big it needs to be. I use Jorgy F-style clamps, and 1" is plenty big.

Now you have a brace to clamp to the inside corner, and hold it square until the glue sets. Easier if you do 1 or 2 corners at a time.

Second alternative: Feed the Blue Beast [Rockler]:

http://www.rockler.com/clamp-it-assembly-square?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=&utm_content=pla&utm_campaign=PL&sid=V9146&gclid=CIH9lLfwxsQCFcpZ7AodoUMALw



http://assets.rockler.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/720x720/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/2/9/29190-30-1000.jpg

[Ryan Bodnarchuk]

I guess the consensus is one cleat per box. I was worried about supporting the weight, I am making 35 inch wide ones too. I did manage to align the cleats on the wall with a jig setup to near perfect alignment. I might be off a millimeter on one or 2 of them, but the boxes that I did make sit well at any level with the double cleats. But will likely be just a little better with just the one.

I have 3 with the doubles, 2 of them I glued, so I will leave those and just un-screw the 3rd one.


One-cleat it is.

making the 90's with the plywood for the brace is the plan now too. I also have a set of precision squares to verify them too.

should be this weekend too.

Also finished up one of the boxes with natural color danish oil and I really like it, even on bare pine. will update some pictures this weekend too.

thanks guys

[Phil Thien]

Post more pics when you get further, it looks like it is going to be a great setup.

[Ryan Bodnarchuk]

ok, here is the new glue up. Made some 90's with some scrap plywood and dry clamped it all and checked with precision square and back light. The only light coming between the edge was the imperfections in the plywood.... pretty damn close for me.

To top that off, went to cut the plywood at first on the table saw and sled... flip the switch and nothing... the saw was dead... WTF. off to the miter saw I go.... which was off and was on my list to adjust later... change of plan , so, I adjusted the fence on that to square it up first, did a quicky eye-ball for now. Still have to do a 5 cut alignment.

will un-clamp tomorrow and see how it goes. and also a pic of the natural finish danish oil on one of them. Would you consider that blotchy? If you look at the ply, it's barely a step above construction grade too.

what else can I improve on here ? I guess I will see how the unveiling goes tomorrow :)

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[Kent A Bathurst]

Corner braces look cool.

"Blotching", "Shop Cabinets", "Inexpensive Plywood"..... From the cheap seats, all three of those can always be in the same sentence. What - FWW coming thru on an inspection? You worried about repairing dings from tools tossed in there? :D

You can use 2 cleats if you want - hey - it's your stuff. Just that you don't need to. Kitchen cabinets, 40" tall, full of dishes, etc. One cleat. It's not the # of cleats, its the quality of the fastening of the 2 cleats to the wall/cabinets. And, as long as you never use drywall screws where the issue is shear strength, you will be fine.

[Jim Matthews]

If you really must have the boxes flushed to one another, there's no reason why you couldn't
drive in a screw or two. Screws are removable if you put a little paraffin wax on the threads.

You could even make a wooden 'pinch' dog to slide over the top corners where they meet.

http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=970

[Pat Barry]

ok, here is the new glue up.

what else can I improve on here ? I guess I will see how the unveiling goes tomorrow :)

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I like the trim facing you put over the box fronts. Much nicer than plywood edge showing. With regard to construction, because of the trim work I can't tell where the dado is placed. In your picture, Is the top that we are seeing here the actual bottom? If so, everything is cool. If the top in this picture is the side then you could improve by putting the 'tongues' on the bottom and fitting them into the dado on the sides and back. This is obviously much stronger

[Ryan Bodnarchuk]

I am not worried about doing any repairs, but am treating this type of work as practice for better stuff down the road.

as for strength, each wall cleat is hung with 3.5 " deck screws into the studs, 16" on centre. and here is a label of the last picture with back and side, view is from the top. If you flip it, then the back in this picture is how the bottom is also tongued into the sides and back panel.


I think I am good for garage cabinets that will be abused.


On a sad note, I killed my table saw. off to get another one tomorrow.

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[Rich Engelhardt]

I am not worried about doing any repairs, but am treating this type of work as practice for better stuff down the road.My friend from here, George Bokros, turned me on to Marc Sommerfeld's T&G cabinet construction technique.

Check out the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klv0jzWD26w

I have some kitchen cabinets I need to build, but, the T&G bit set he uses for the carcasses looks like just the ticket for making nice square boxes that are self squaring.

[mike mcilroy]

On a sad note, I killed my table saw. off to get another one tomorrow.

Sad news followed immediately with happy news. Way to bounce back!

[Brian Tymchak]

as for strength, each wall cleat is hung with 3.5 " deck screws into the studs, 16" on centre.


Passing on a bit of advice I got from someone else here on the Creek a while back => Use Stainless screws for hanging applications. Deck screws are designed to hold soft woods down to a joist, not really to hold hanging weight up. You probably won't put enough weight in those boxes to cause a problem, but thought I'd throw it out there for your future consideration.

[Ryan Bodnarchuk]

Passing on a bit of advice I got from someone else here on the Creek a while back => Use Stainless screws for hanging applications. Deck screws are designed to hold soft woods down to a joist, not really to hold hanging weight up. You probably won't put enough weight in those boxes to cause a problem, but thought I'd throw it out there for your future consideration.

Thanks Brian, that does help.

I have #8 in there now, will remove those and replace with #10 stainless for sure, at least one per joist.

I don't have it completed yet, got side tracked this week to replace my saw. picked up this a few days ago... still setting up and getting it on my existing moveable base.

got the delta 36-725, I have not even turned it on yet.

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[Kent A Bathurst]

Deck screws are designed to hold soft woods down to a joist, not really to hold hanging weight up.

Yeah - what he said. More generally: Deck screws and drywall screws are not designed to have shear strength and they don't.

[Ryan Bodnarchuk]

Update: Here is how the shelves are looking after finishing with natural finish danish oil and hung up together.

I have about 7 done so far. and the assembly line of the next 12 in process.

The gap is much better after using some better clamping procedures ( thanks guys ). It's not perfect yet... but I attribute some of the gap from the plywood warp. and I am ok with that.


once done, I should have a lot of versatile storage above the work area. some of it is pretty high, I need to stand on the workbench to get to it... but that is for the less used items.

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[Rick Potter]

You are getting better each time. We all had to start somewhere. As I remember, my first book case was boards laid across cement blocks. Used it for years.

[Ryan Bodnarchuk]

Thought I would add one more picture of all the cabinet/shelves completed and finished. Each box can be re-arranged as needed and I can use up all the wall space in and around the gas line and other shelving.

Yes, there is a mix of plywood here, mostly because I wanted to try different types and see how they work. The darker, finer grain is an oak veneer plywood. the core is 11 ply , 3/4 inch and was a lot more consistent. However, the finish was so thin, if I looked at it wrong it disappeared. it chipped and tore out all over the place. Even with a cross cut finishing blade on my mitre saw. it is a dewalt contractor finishing blade and cuts everything else nicely.

The other board is a sanded and finished on both sides pine plywood from the borg. only 7 ply, but the outer layer was much , much thicker and had no tare-out or thinning from sanding and finishing. I even like the look of the grain better. This plywood is not as stable and warped a little more, but good enough for garage shelving to me.

I will still build a few more custom attachments to go on the cleats, for things such as a light and maybe a custom plane holder.

now, I can do the next project on the list.

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