Curly Maple planing questions

[Mike Cherry]

So I just ordered some curly maple from Bell Forest and I need to sort myself as far as plaining goes when it arrives for the plaque I have in mind for a retiring Marine. I have a LN #4 wit a 45 degree frog(no back bevel) and I have a 62 1/2 low angle jack( Lie-Nielsen) with the regular 25 degree blade. Obviously I need a high angle for such figured maple. The question is, how should I attack this lumber? Should I get a new blade for the jack plane? Maybe a high angle frog for the #4? what would you guys recommend?

[Tom M King]

The 4 will do it. The iron needs to be REally sharp, and the cap iron Very close to the cutting edge with the end angle changed more vertically to almost stop the shaving. Mouth not as tight as you might think. You don't want the shavings to be long curls like you normally like off a smoothing plane. Shavings around one thou or less. I keep a Record 4-1/2 set up to do this. It takes some playing with it to get one to work, but once you do, it works like a charm.

[Jeffrey Martel]

Buying a second blade would certainly be the easiest thing to do. I've got a 50 deg blade for my LV smoother and it does a great job. No tearout at all.

[Don Shirey]

Tom, when you say more vertically, do you mean more perpendicular to the plane of the sole or the plane of the blade?

[Steve Voigt]

Tom, when you say more vertically, do you mean more perpendicular to the plane of the sole or the plane of the blade?

Not Tom of course, but I'll chime in. My favorite line on this is what Charles Holtzapplfel said over 160 years ago: the chipbreaker should present a "nearly perpendicular wall" for the shaving to ascend. So, if the iron is bedded at 45°, and the chipbreaker has about a 45° bevel (this can be a very small microbevel), you get 90°. The chipbreaker bevel can certainly be steeper than 45°, up to about 80°, but I find 45° or a just a little bit more to work well.

One visual sign that you have the chipbreaker in the right range is when the shaving shoots straight up out of the plane, rather than curling. Like this:

309971

Of course it doesn't have to do that--as long as the surface looks good, that's all that matters.
(sorry for the bad lighting and filthy bench) :)

[Tom M King]

Tom, when you say more vertically, do you mean more perpendicular to the plane of the sole or the plane of the blade?

More perpendicular to the top of the iron. This is where it plays its most important part. It keeps the shaving from lifting too soon, and tearing out behind where the cutting edge hits the wood. I don't think in words, so that might not be explained the clearest either.

[Mike Cherry]

Thanks everyone for your input. I have given myself a very comfy window with which to work before the piece is to be presented. Having said that, I suppose I could at least try to get the #4 to tackle this lumber before I throw money at the problem. There may not be a problem after all hehe. If setting the chip breaker really close and having an extra sharp blade is the recommended prescription for figured wood, why are there so many "extras" sold to combat such wood?

[Brett Robson]

I'm in the home stretch of a highboy in curly maple and have done a ton of hand planing to this point. I've done all of the finish planing with my trusty #4 and it's done a fine job.

The advise of others to have a very sharp iron, tight mouth and chipbreaker is correct and likely all you'll need to plane curly maple.

In my experience, not all figured wood is made the same. Maple is pretty easy to plane, curly cherry not bad, but get into the figured tropical woods with interlocking grain and it's a whole different game!

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I agree a sharp blade in a no 4 will handle curly woods, but some curly maple tears out in deep chunks even with the best setup. If you can't get it to plane then get a toothed blade for the bevel up plane. Use it diagonally to flatten the board. It works miracles. Follow that with a no 4 and ultra sharp blade, and take it down to where you just stop seeing the tooth pattern. Follow that with a card scraper and frequently reset the burr on the card scraper.

[Mike Cherry]

Alright I feel confident I can tackle this wood with my sharp #4. I will report back when I start dimensioning. Thanks all!

[Winton Applegate]

why are there so many "extras" sold to combat such wood?
Arent you guys proud of me ?
How quiet I have been ?
To answer the question directly above . . . until fairly recently most all of us did not understand the use of the chip breaker well enough to get good results in gnarly wood with it. Of course several guys here do and have all along but we had not ears to hear nor eyes to see what they knew to be perfectly freekin' obvious to them.
so
yes all you need is your #4
That said I will add that since you have the BU I believe that if you were to put a micro bevel on the 25° blade you could have a particularly easy time of planing this wood and the added advantage of being able to take heavier cuts as opposed to being limited to being locked into taking endless passes at the one thou setting. Sharpening can even be more lax with your bevel up in that you can round the bevel side and as long as the flat side of the blade is pretty good you will still be cutting well. The bevel down is less forgiving of a rounded bevel than the bevel up.

And to well and truley end my record for this thread of "being good (silent)" I would add that rather that trial and error to get the chip breaker set just right after each sharpening , if you were to go with the bevel up with say a twenty degree increase in bevel angle for a micro bevel of 45° all you have to do is put the blade in the plane, push the plane down the work while advancing the blade until it begins to cut, tilt the blade until the curl is centered on the blade, advance the blade more until you are taking a curl on the bold side of lets get this done and . . .
well
thats just me I guess.
take lots and lots and lots of super thin shavings if you like.
In fact I would say now is your chance to test out both methods, master both tools and see which you like best.

[Jim Matthews]

It's a worthy practice to give a test run on the side that people won't see,
to get a feel for how a given board behaves.

Remember that a blade presented askew (like a snow plow) presents a varied cutting angle.
This can help slicing through the undulations of 'curl' in the grain.

If I understand it correctly, curl is the radial cells alternately nearer and farther from the surface because of their size.
This means the plane iron will be cutting through different densities of fiber and tear out is a present risk.

In practice, this means a freshly sharpened blade is essential.

[Pat Barry]

Arent you guys proud of me ?
How quiet I have been ?
To answer the question directly above . . . until fairly recently most all of us did not understand the use of the chip breaker well enough to get good results in gnarly wood with it. Of course several guys here do and have all along but we had not ears to hear nor eyes to see what they knew to be perfectly freekin' obvious to them.
so
yes all you need is your #4
That said I will add that since you have the BU I believe that if you were to put a micro bevel on the 25° blade you could have a particularly easy time of planing this wood and the added advantage of being able to take heavier cuts as opposed to being limited to being locked into taking endless passes at the one thou setting. Sharpening can even be more lax with your bevel up in that you can round the bevel side and as long as the flat side of the blade is pretty good you will still be cutting well. The bevel down is less forgiving of a rounded bevel than the bevel up.

And to well and truley end my record for this thread of "being good (silent)" I would add that rather that trial and error to get the chip breaker set just right after each sharpening , if you were to go with the bevel up with say a twenty degree increase in bevel angle for a micro bevel of 45° all you have to do is put the blade in the plane, push the plane down the work while advancing the blade until it begins to cut, tilt the blade until the curl is centered on the blade, advance the blade more until you are taking a curl on the bold side of lets get this done and . . .
well
thats just me I guess.
take lots and lots and lots of super thin shavings if you like.
In fact I would say now is your chance to test out both methods, master both tools and see which you like best.

Well Winton, you 'only' stayed out of this discussion for a hour. I know you must have been jumping out of your skin during that time.

I think its time for a good old-fashioned plane off to end this discussion once and for all.

I can see you, for example, in one corner with your BU plane and secondary bevel approach, then over in the other corner some reasonable modern day substitute for ol Dave Weaver with his finely adjusted cap iron and trusty #4. Let you both tackle a few species of wood ranging from the oft mentioned, easy to plane maple, moving on to a dense hardwood, then some nasty curly maple, perhaps some yew, and then ending up with Derek's finest tasmanian live oak.

Someone could film the whole thing and have our judges grade the respective process and results and crown a grand champion of finish planing and end this discussion once and forever. It could be a knock down drag out battle for the ages.

Afterwards all present could retire to savor a cold beer and your favorite cookies and discuss what might have been. It could be famous!

[Brian Holcombe]

I had to plain some truly nasty maple grain recently on a frame I was building. I reground my chipbreaker slightly steeper (50 degrees) polished my blade, and then set the distance of the chipbreaker from the edge with a feeler gauge to .010". It cured my ailments.

[lowell holmes]

I use a 50 degree iron on my Veritas bu smoother for curly maple.

[Zach Dillinger]

On my current build (a curly maple QA slant top desk), I've tamed the curl with my Old Street Tools 55 deg. smoother. Did a fine job.

[Judson Green]

why are there so many "extras" sold to combat such wood?

Because there is still money to be had. No different than any other hobby or anything really.

[george wilson]

If you cannot get the chip breaker set exceedingly close to the blade,I used to plane very curly maple straight across the board with a finely set,razor sharp plane. Then,a sharp scraper used at a diagonal angle to avoid riding the curls up and down and getting a washboard effect.

The chip breaker needs to be just a FEW THOUSANDTHS from the cutting edge. And,the iron and chip breaker need to be mated perfectly to keep chips from getting up under it. So,some very careful flattening of mating surfaces is needed.

[Curt Putnam]

Another couple ways to get the chipbreaker set closely enough: Get a piece of soft wood and gently tap the edge straight down - about .001 - .002 in depth. With the blade set in the line, mate the breaker to it. Or - get a piece of copy paper and use that as a spacer for your breaker.

I point these methods out because without such aids I cannot get the breaker properly mated enough to produce the desired effect. And I'm still not sure I have yet.

[alan tasoff]

At the risk of being banished from the Neanderthals, I routinely plane my curly maple with the Dewalt 13" planer. It comes out like glass.

[george wilson]

Those lunch box planers with sharp blades will often plane smoother than the industrial sized machines. We had a 20"Powermatic at work. Sometimes,I'd take a 12" Delta I bought used,outside and plane problematic wood with it. I must say,though,my 15" Bridgewood 4 poster planes MUCH smoother than the Powermatic ever would. But,I keep an as yet unused Delta at home also,if problematic wood comes along. Since I now have bad COPD,I don't plane as much by hand anymore.

[Mike Cherry]

ok honestly, when I was envisioning a close chip breaker, that was not how close I thought it had to be lol!

[Winton Applegate]

Mike,
how close I thought it had to be lol!
Yes if you are talking .002" to paper thickness (.003") I think that is a little too close in my experience. More like .007" would be more like it.

Pat,
Plane off
Ha, ha
sounds good
Cookies and beer though . . . I don't know if I am that tough . . .

Probably ought to go all the way and have a hand held belt sander guy in there as well.

[Mark Stutz]

The chip breaker needs to be just a FEW THOUSANDTHS from the cutting edge. And,the iron and chip breaker need to be mated perfectly to keep chips from getting up under it. So,some very careful flattening of mating surfaces is needed.


Mike,
Yes if you are talking .002" to paper thickness (.003") I think that is a little too close in my experience. More like .007" would be more like it.l.

Since I've been back I've seen several references to "the secret of the chipbreaker" etc. but hadn't got around to asking about it. I had always just put it as close as I could. Now I have some idea what to shoot for!

[John Crawford]

Since I've been back I've seen several references to "the secret of the chipbreaker" etc. but hadn't got around to asking about it.

Mark--Here is one of the "secret of the chipbreaker" articles that people often link to here:

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=newarticles&file=articles_935.shtml

[Brian Holcombe]

Maple, I'm making frames and this was the nastiest of the bunch

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/57AB3E08-F1B1-49A8-90BD-E619F068840F_zps1y6tjpf1.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/57AB3E08-F1B1-49A8-90BD-E619F068840F_zps1y6tjpf1.jpg.html)

This is with a 45 degree pitch, and the chip breaker set to a 50 degree angle and .010" from the edge.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/6A3233A1-1961-44D3-B9CA-1E4B321B0B6A_zpstfglgtgz.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/6A3233A1-1961-44D3-B9CA-1E4B321B0B6A_zpstfglgtgz.jpg.html)

The tiny crack left was repaired.

[Mark Stutz]

Mark--Here is one of the "secret of the chipbreaker" articles that people often link to here:

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=newarticles&file=articles_935.shtml

Thanks so much! It turns out I've been coming close, about .01, without any real reason, other than somewhere I heard "put it as close as you can". Probably has worked for me since I'm still using mostly pretty tame cherry and walnut.

With apologies to the OP, I do have a question about the diagram at the beginning of that article. It shows the frog adjusted so that the end of the blade is not supported by the sole. I have never done that, mainly because it just seemed that it would result in chatter or flexing, but apparently it isn't the problem that I thought and a tight mouth is more important.

[Winton Applegate]

Mark,

Now I have some idea what to shoot for!
I tend to hold up two crossed index fingers and hiss when some one mentions bevel down and chip breakers for "difficult" wood . . . so I am not the first to ask . . . though I HAVE spent enough time with them to "conquer" the wood I at first thought was beyond them . . .
anyway you might start out there .010" or even more and work toward the edge from there.
No reason to make the tedium machines even more tedious for no reason.

[Winton Applegate]

Mark,
Howdy
It's me again.
It appears on first blush that I ignored where you said you normally set at .010" but that reply was made as I read along in the posts earlier on above.

the end of the blade is not supported by the sole. I have never done that, mainly because it just seemed that it would result in chatter or flexing, but apparently it isn't the problem that I thought and a tight mouth is more important.
Well that has always been my feeling about bevel down planes. I guess if you get everything just right things pretty much work out but then everyone says in the same breath with "set the chip breaker fine" . . . they say "and take super thin cuts."

This here new fangled thing (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=52515&cat=1,41182) will allow one to toss the chip breaker in the trash (I find a chip breaker is at it's best when it is wedged under the shop door to keep the door from blowing closed) . . . the new fangled plane allows one to have the under side of the blade supported and, and, and . . . get this . . . have the throat adjustable from wide open for a geeeeeter done cut then in a flash dial it up close (though I have never found up close all that critical) for a finish cut in the weirdest wood . . . and . . . no disassembly and farting around with screw drivers.

They tell me these new fangled planes suck and are just not as good as the bevel downs and they tell me the REAL COOL guys, back in the day, didn't use them because they were just not good enough easy enough something or other enough.

I'm so dumb I think they are the good stuff.

Anyway

[Steve Voigt]

Mark,

Well that has always been my feeling about bevel down planes. I guess if you get everything just right things pretty much work out but then everyone says in the same breath with "set the chip breaker fine" . . . they say "and take super thin cuts."



Winton,
It is not true that you need to take "super-thin" cuts with the chipbreaker. Quite the opposite, in fact. Set it correctly and you can take fat .010 shavings, tearout-free. I don't know where all this sub-thou crap came from. That's the single-iron guys, not us. :p

[Mark Stutz]

Winton,
I've been known to put a toothed blade into a low angle jack:D

I've not had the chance yet to try the custom totes on the LV planes, the old one's were very uncomfortable to me, so I gravitated to LN for my modern planes.

[Brian Holcombe]

I take .005"~ cuts no problem, and most of my finish cuts are .003" unless at the last few cuts.

[Chuck Hart]

Sharpen the blade on the 4 and have at it. It is not rocket science