Matsui Precision 2 blade Japanese marking gauge

[ian maybury]

Inspired by discussion here involving Derek and others regarding the advantages of the two blade type I ordered this gauge from Stuart at Tools from Japan - bit the bullet on what semed like a fairly high price given the fairly non descript look on the web page. It's at the bottom here: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=356_599_609 , and it arrived after several weeks in the mail this morning.

This isn't to blow hot air. At about $115 it's not one of the very high rent Kinshiro types (out of my range), but having seen it in the flesh though I'm overwhelmed - it's a thing of beauty. The metal parts (stainless or plated (?) and blue steel) look to be ground all over, while the finish on the white oak wooden parts is pure silk - what feels like a carefully flatted satin clear all over. (none of the poured on lacquer we see so often) The corners are all carefully broken - a chamfer of about 0.25mm - no idea how it's done.

Everything is perfectly fitted, and the metalwork is accurately flat and square. The result is that there's absolutely no stickiness - the cutters make this lovely clunk as they drop home into the body.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself, and think the makers (and Stuart) deserve some publicity. It's one of those items that while 100% functional gives pleasure just from looking at and handling it. No idea how Matsui do it, but well done guys. All I have to do now is to figure out how to use it to the same standard...

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[Richard Hutchings]

I didn't even know such things existed. And that's not the best? Congrats.

[Brian Holcombe]

My only regret to owning one is that I wish I had two. :D It's such a wonderful tool to use.

[ken hatch]

Ian,

Yep, pretty nice...I just used mine to mark out the shoulders and tenons on some Cherry. The locking screw is a nice addition, I have several of this style gauge both with and with out the locking screw, for marking tenons the lock is helpful. As you noted, the one from Stu is a bargain.

ken

[ian maybury]

Ta guys. Didn't realise anybody else had this same gauge by the same maker. They list some nice vernier based versions too.

There's been lots of previous discussion on the detail advantages of the type. The imediate point that strikes me is that the layout while standard Japanese is a really nicely balanced in use. I have a couple of the Western budget variety, and even with re-shaping the pins the very narrow/short fence means they tip very easily in use. This seems very stable in comparison, especially when you reach in over the top with a thumb to press down over the cutters...

[Brian Holcombe]

Ian, mine is without the locking screw for the two blades but it is also matsui. Mine has an ebony face.

[Patrick Harper]

I might have to splurge on one of those. I've been searching for a good mortise gauge for quite a while.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Congrats! and thanks for that picture! I ordered mine last week after deciding that the price is not so high at all for what you get. I don't have a mortise gauge and I'm glad to think that I hit the nail of the head on the first try with this one.

Brian I saw the gauge you have on matsui's web page, it looks gorgeous http://www.matsui-seimitsu.co.jp/kamakebiki.html
Did you request it from Stu ?

they also have some intresting looking squares! maybe if we make enough noise Stu might add some more of their stuff to the site.
http://www.matsui-seimitsu.co.jp/square.html

[ian maybury]

I think the ebony faced one may be an option Malcolm, they are shown on the leaflet that came with mine.

Don't rely me on me for experienced user feedback Matthew - but for sure it's beautifully made. Even the box is art....

[Brian Holcombe]

Congrats! and thanks for that picture! I ordered mine last week after deciding that the price is not so high at all for what you get. I don't have a mortise gauge and I'm glad to think that I hit the nail of the head on the first try with this one.

Brian I saw the gauge you have on matsui's web page, it looks gorgeous http://www.matsui-seimitsu.co.jp/kamakebiki.html
Did you request it from Stu ?

they also have some intresting looking squares! maybe if we make enough noise Stu might add some more of their stuff to the site.
http://www.matsui-seimitsu.co.jp/square.html

I was pursuing a Kinshiro and so I contacted Tomohito Iida, he has run out of them but presented me with the ebony faced Matsui, and so I bought it. Mine has a brass set screw like the one on the lower gauge but all else is identical to the top gauge.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I was pursuing a Kinshiro and so I contacted Tomohito Iida, he has run out of them but presented me with the ebony faced Matsui, and so I bought it. Mine has a brass set screw like the one on the lower gauge but all else is identical to the top gauge.

you mean the blades can be locked together, or just the locking screw?

[Brian Holcombe]

Just the locking screw, it's very similar to the Kinshiro in function.

[Matthew N. Masail]

I can't imagine much practical difference between these and the Kinshiro, I can only guess the Kinshiro has more of a hand made feel, but very high tolerance machine work feels quite nice too.

[ian maybury]

Don't know if it's intended but the two blade gauge while marginally less convenient to set can be used as as a single blade gauge too. The lower blade retracts into the opening in the fence provided the locking screw over the slot/shank of the tool is left free. Once the upper blade is set and the locking screw in the fence tight then the one in the slot can be tightened too.

[ken hatch]

I can't imagine much practical difference between these and the Kinshiro, I can only guess the Kinshiro has more of a hand made feel, but very high tolerance machine work feels quite nice too.

There isn't much. I have three twin beam mortise gauges, the one on the left was acquired back in the late 70's early 80's and I haven't a clue about who made it or brand name. The middle one is a Kinshiro and you can see some slight differences between it and the Matsui on the right but functionally there really isn't any other than the Matsui has a locking screw so you can lock the two cutters together. I find that function very useful so the Matsui will normally be the primary marking gauge for a build and the others are used as secondary gauges.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/twinBeamMortiseGauge_zpslgjjtfg1.jpg

[Eric Schubert]

That marking gage is a thing of beauty!

[Derek Cohen]

The locking of the beams/blades is very important when marking offset mortices. This is the weak area of the Kinshiro. I was tempted to modify mine, but decided instead to build a "kinshiro-type" with fixed blades that where the beam could be adjusted. This is the easiest way in practice (just more work to actually build one)...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Two%20New%20Mortice%20and%20Cutting%20Gauges/1_zpsgyw8ijei.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Mortice-CuttingGauges.html

So, this is a vote for the beam locking type over the Kinshiro (no longer in production anyway).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[ken hatch]

Derek,

I agree....today I needed to mark a couple of sets of double tenons. The mortises were chopped with a 3/8" pig sticker and it was a simple procedure to drop the cutters into the far mortise to set the fence then mark all the far tenons. Once the far tenons were marked, then drop the cutters into the near mortise, reset the fence and mark all the near tenons. No butt scratching, no monkey motion, just a quick mark out and the tenons fit perfectly off the saw.

The Matsui is a great marking gauge, in fact I ordered another one from Stu today.

ken

[Matthew N. Masail]

There isn't much. I have three twin beam mortise gauges, the one on the left was acquired back in the late 70's early 80's and I haven't a clue about who made it or brand name. The middle one is a Kinshiro and you can see some slight differences between it and the Matsui on the right but functionally there really isn't any other than the Matsui has a locking screw so you can lock the two cutters together. I find that function very useful so the Matsui will normally be the primary marking gauge for a build and the others are used as secondary gauges.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh222/VTXAZ/twinBeamMortiseGauge_zpslgjjtfg1.jpg

Nice ken! that pic shows potential color change in oak over time..... lol

[Matthew N. Masail]

Has anyone tried one of these from Mitsui ?

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it's a shame they don't invest in some better pics

[Mike Holbrook]

I have wondered and asked the same question Matthew. I believe the Vernier gauges are single blade gauges. Most posters seem to be fans of the double blade gauges. With an actual scale, it would seem the user could move between various settings, although to do so obviously requires the additional measuring and set up time. One could also use two gauges but this means extra money and marking time. I understand that many like to set their two blade gauge to the width of a specific chisel that they plan to make a mortise with to save time and increase accuracy. Still it would seem there would be a place for a gauge that could be set for an actual measurement from a plan....

[Matthew N. Masail]

I have wondered and asked the same question Matthew. I believe the Vernier gauges are single blade gauges. Most posters seem to be fans of the double blade gauges. With an actual scale, it would seem the user could move between various settings, although to do so obviously requires the additional measuring and set up time. One could also use two gauges but this means extra money and marking time. I understand that many like to set their two blade gauge to the width of a specific chisel that they plan to make a mortise with to save time and increase accuracy. Still it would seem there would be a place for a gauge that could be set for an actual measurement from a plan....

Thanks Mike, so I suppose now one had tried it here yet, at least not a poster. I agree the double blade ones seem much more popular, probably because they can be used both as a mortise and a regular gauge, and they have a traditional feel.
I'm interested in the vernier marking gauge as a single gauge and what is has to offer in terms of usefulness. for mortise\tenon work I ordered the same gauge as the OP just last week (so it was double nice to see this thread). I think the vernier gauge might be real nice for marking stock to thickness or anytime we want a mark at a precise distance, applications and usefulness seem countless. for example one could use it to set up other gauges by making a mark and then setting a non scaled gauge to that mark. repeated marking would also be much quicker to set. I don't think it will technically do anything a regular gauge won't, but it sure would be useful to have.

it's funny to think that most marking in woodworking is relative, that is marking from the same face so the precise measurement doesn't really matter, or marking the width of a dado directly off the board that will fit into it. in that sense it's easy to see why non scaled marking gauges are all that is needed. still, I think the vernier gauge might be very handy.

[lowell holmes]

Man, that marking gage is one to lust for.

[David Wong]

I use one of the single blade Matsui gauges. The blade is much nicer than my other two kebiki gauges. On those less expensive gauges, the blade has a tendency to chip and get ragged in a short time. The steel in the Matsui so far has great edge retention, and is very sharp. It is not as comfortable to handle as a more traditional gauge, since you are wrapping your hands around the vernier instead of a smooth wooden beam. It takes a short adjustment period, but does helps to reinforce a light touch when using the gauge. The blade lock mechanism is very secure, and I have not had any problem with the blade working loose. The vernier scale is metric, and I have been very surprised how often I use it. It certainly has me measuring more projects using metric. It is very accurate and can be adjusted by loosening two screws and moving the head relative to the wood body. I had to adjust mine when it first arrived.

[ian maybury]

HI David. That's good to know. Coming from an engineering background i have to say that i looked long and hard at the possibility of a vernier gauge, but in the end concluded i didn't have enough experience with gauges to stray from the more traditional format - i didn't know enough to decide between the pros and cons Mike raises above.

Do you use it to mark stuff requiring double lines too?

[David Wong]

I have not used the gauge to mark mortises since the blade bevel would face the wrong direction for one of the lines. I tend to mark mortises in pencil anyway. I don't measure my motives by the chisel widths.

[Brian Holcombe]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/75E7CAB6-3339-4776-A60F-6EFB4FA0F7D9_zpskm09ndpe.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/75E7CAB6-3339-4776-A60F-6EFB4FA0F7D9_zpskm09ndpe.jpg.html)

Had the opportunity to add a small Kinshirou to the mix, glad to have it, but I actually find the Matsui to have a nicer action.

[Matthew N. Masail]

Nice picture, they look very similar. I like the way you store them.

Apparently quite a few people ordered a matsui double gauge for TFJ, because there is quite a wait for them at the moment. I have been waiting just over 2 months so far. it seem that like most good things, they are worth the wait.

[Ray Bohn]

you mean the blades can be locked together, or just the locking screw?

Not quite sure of the dialogue in this thread. Can this gauge be set and locked to specific mortise size and have the fence only adjust for different distances from edge of stock?

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice picture, they look very similar. I like the way you store them.

Apparently quite a few people ordered a matsui double gauge for TFJ, because there is quite a wait for them at the moment. I have been waiting just over 2 months so far. it seem that like most good things, they are worth the wait.

The major differences seem to be in the blades and the mortise. Kinshirou does the through mortise, where Matsui does a blind mortise. The Kinshirou blades also have ground hollows on the length of them, presumably to aid in sliding. Both are quite wonderful to use. The Matsui blades are ground on all surfaces and have an interesting sliding action which allows them to be situated between themselves then slid as an assembly in the gauge. The version of the matsui gauge I have does not have locking blades.


Not quite sure of the dialogue in this thread. Can this gauge be set and locked to specific mortise size and have the fence only adjust for different distances from edge of stock?

Matsui offers a variety of combinations. Some can lock, some do not lock.

[Randy Karst]

Brian, I noticed yours in your "Cabinet Build" thread and saw the ebony face-I was jealous. Mine is the same as Ian's (which is very nice). Where did you obtain yours at? Actually, I just read further, you purchased from Lida Tool. I had seen before purchasing the Matsui from Stu that Lida Tool had advertised the Kinshiro but it was out of my price range. At the time, I did not see a Matsui on the Lida Tool website. The locking of the blades on the Matsui is a nice feature for mortices. I use mine often as a marking gauge. I thought of the Matsui as the (not cheap) but affordable Kinshiro.

[Brian Holcombe]

Indeed, I bought it from Iida tool. Its been my experience that many of the Japanese tool sellers will list online, but have a much bigger variety of offerings once they're contacted. I had already contacted Tomohito about the Kinshirou and he apologized about not having any remaining stock and then offered instead the matsui gauge.

I bought the recent small Kinshirou from So Yamashita of Japan Tool as he still had stock on some of the small gauges.

[Randy Karst]

Brian,
NICE! Got pictures of your small Kinshiro (is it Kinshiro or Kinshirou?)? I will keep in mind your experience regarding Japanese tool sellers having
more in stock than their online catalogs might indicate. Quality tools inspire.

[Robert Eckerle]

I'm bumping this old thread because I am interested in acquiring my very first mortise marking gauge....

the only place I see the gauge available online is a website cabinhouse8

can anyone suggest a source to find one of these marking gauges ?
or does anyone know anything about cabinhouse8 ?


thanks


edit

upon reviewing that is not the same gauge listed @ Cabinouse8

[Brian Holcombe]

Japan-Tool

[Brian Holcombe]

Or Suzuki Tool

[Robert Eckerle]

Thank You
very much

[Patrick Chase]

Thank You
very much

It looks to me as though Stu still carries that gauge: http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=356_599_609&products_id=2036

[Brian Holcombe]

Tehiba Masanori carries them as well, he's a great seller;

http://www2.odn.ne.jp/mandaraya/11-kehiki.htm

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Tehiba Masanori carries them as well, he's a great seller;

http://www2.odn.ne.jp/mandaraya/11-kehiki.htm

Brian, that page is in Japanese :-/ does it come in English?

[Brian Holcombe]

Not so much and google translate usually makes a mess of it. I usually just email him with a link to what I want.

[Noah Magnuson]

I found two nice ones on the bay a while back in a poorly described listing and was the only bidder. It is worth a check as they are not a typical "hot" item.