Large Live Edge Dining Table Help Needed.

[Michael E Turner]

Hi All,

I have been a long time user of this site for creative ideas as well as how to solve some difficult wood working questions. The knowledge base here is vast and deep. I am excited to be a part of the community and finally feel like I have some questions worthy of asking.

Recently I ran into a project that I am concerned I am little over my head. Long story short, I offered my brother and his new wife to build them a dining room table as a wedding present. One thing lead to another and somehow I went from making a glued up standard table to a live edge table out of one slab, that was WAY more expensive then I was comfortable paying for my first time working with a large slab like this. But you never learn without really stretching your abilities, and I already bought the slab, so…..

I guess the next best place to start is detailing a little about my skill level. I am probably slightly better than a novice wood worker, I have built a handful of furniture, from cabinets, bookshelves, and tables from end tables all the way up to dining room tables. I have recently starting playing around with live edge wood, and done a couple of tables in this style. None of which are nearly this big. I have experience with Bowties, I am ok with a chisel and I have started to do some work with hand planes, although I don’t think my skill level and this project fit together quite yet. As for tools, I have a decent enough shop as one of my hobbies, is buying used wood working equipment and fixing it up.

Now a little about the slab I have. It is 6/4” thick Maple. A little over 8 feet long right now and is about 3-4 feet wide. The final length of the table is to be under 7 feet, so I am planning on cutting off the skinny end to meet that need. It slab has been kiln dried and sanded. It is not perfectly flat, but maybe has a 1/8” cup on the side that I am planning on using as the top. I live in the lovely north east and we are enjoying record cold, so rather then put the slab in my basement where the humidity is about equal to the Sahara (About 10-15% right now) I moved the slab into the garage. The slab is also from the north east so I figured that would give it the least amount of shock.

My biggest concerns lie around wood movement across such a big slab.

Here are my questions
1) Where to apply Bow Ties – The piece has several cracks and splits, some are big and some are much smaller. Any advice on where to apply the bow ties? Obviously, the big split needs them, but what about the smaller cracks, and knots? Do I need to worry about those? what about the hole in the center of the table. I have attached some close up pictures of this.
2) Filling the cracks – I have read that Epoxy is used to fill in the cracks. I assume this is going to expand at a different rate then the wood itself, so wouldn’t it crack in the future? What type of epoxy do you recommend using? Brand name if you have it? Any limitations on the size hole I can fill? Anything I can do to prevent the cracking?
3) Flattening the slab – I figure I have two options here, belt sander or hand planes. I am thinking belt sander is the safer bet here. Any other thoughts?
4) Mounting the slab. Everything I have ever heard about mounting wood is that you need to let it move across the grain. On tables I have made in the past, I have always used some kind f system to allow the movement, such as S clips, or figure 8s. I was reading a post by Todd Burch (Located here, he made and amazingly gorgeous table) and he mentions using high strength screws to hold it down. I would be worried about inducing warping and cracking, but I can’t imagine Mr. Burch didn’t consider these things when choosing this method of mounting. I am interested in some thoughts around this. I can definitely see the advantage of rigidly mounting to ensure the table is flat.
5) What order should I do these operations. I was thinking building the base, flattening the slab some, installing the slab on the base, flattening where needed and installing the bow ties. Finally fill the holes and final sand then finish. My reasoning to install it on the base before the bow ties is to limit the cracking and looser fit of the ties if I an up pulling the wood flat. Thoughts on the best way to proceed?
6) Finally, my last question remains on finishing. Originally I was thinking of a top coat type product, such as Arm R Seal, as I know it will provide a durable finish for years, but have a higher risk of letting moisture penetrate. I have used some Oil finishes, and even an oil and wax product like tried and true, and was leaning more towards this type of finish for the simple reason that it will penetrate the wood rather than sit on top of it. Any suggestions on finishes?

Thanks in advance for all of the advice.

Mike

[Jerry Wright]

Ah! A nice slab from Bershire Products in Sheffield, MA! I have made three different projects from these things - a conference table, an altar table, and a head board. My aproach has been to remember that it is rustic and natural edged. It is not going to be a Stickley period piece. I always pick the side with the least saw kerf gouges. The surface has been sanded flat by Berkshire to about 125 grit and is usually quite flat. I finish sand with my orbital sander to about 220, and finish with satin GF Arm r seal, top and bottim. I have never planed.

As to cracks - if they are stable, structurally, i fill with 5 minute epoxy colored with rotten stone, by sealing the crack bottom with tape and pouring it in. Several attempts will slightly over fill the void. Just sand flat then with an orbital. The big cracks may or may nit need butterflies - your call.

The edges i leave natural after knocking or prying off the bark. The Arm r seal makes them nice, dark and shiny.

I mount traditiinally with slotted screw holes and Kreg screws.

The tops are stunning and the filled cracks, and knots, and occasional slight depressions become part of the character.

FWIW

[Prashun Patel]

You sound like you're thinking the right way.

I wouldn't go nuts with bowties. Newbies (including myself) tend to go overboard. They are aesthetic in most cases. I'd probably use epoxy or nothing on most of them.

Your choice of finish will determine the color as well. Arm R Seal and Waterlox are great table top choices; both are durable. There's a school of thought that I subscribe to (Nakashima did too, so I'm in good company there) that a table should be used and should show its use. As such, I'm not averse in some cases to oil/varnish mixes. At any rate, I prefer low build finishes that allow you to feel the wood. So, consider that carefully. There's no right answer. But if it were me, I'd sand it to 600 grit, then apply Arm R Seal with some BLO mixed in. Wipe on, wipe off a couple times.

Flattening maple with handplanes is hard for me. I tend to get tear out more than on other wood species. If it were me, and if I did not have a lot of experience, and if the table was relatively flat to begin with, I'd use the belt sander. Make some long straight edges to keep you relatively honest during the process. You don't have to be perfect - your eye won't catch a slight, EVEN variation over the expanse. You want to however, avoid digging little troughs; these will be very apparent once the finish is on. So, identify the problem areas, and think 'feathering' and 'blending'. Don't sand in one spot; feather it out.

Your order of ops is fine.

You can attach the base with 'turn button' blocks if you plan your base such that it has aprons or wide legs. You basically make slots in the base with a router or table saw, and then make rabbeted or tenoned blocks that ride in the slot loosely, but screw tightly to the bottom of the table top.

[cody michael]

I made a coffee table out of a chunk of apple wood, its much smaller then this but had some pretty decent cracks, I filled them with clear epoxy, it also had a 3-4inch knot hole I turn the board upside down, and put about 1/2 inch of epoxy in it the hole (tape on bottom) let it dry, flipped it right side up and sand it flat, it would have been a very cool feature but I got some saw dust and junk in it so it only looks okay, some people make them decorative, put rope, coins pictures etc in holes like that.


I would love to make a table like that some day. I'm jealous

[Bradley Gray]

You have had some good advice so far. I looked at your pictures and from here I don't see anything I would butterfly. If the top is reasonably flat and has been wide belt sanded I would be reluctant to do anything but finish sand. It would be easy to gouge the top (1/2 a second) and then what? 1/8 - 1/4" of crown can be pulled when attaching the base. Also be sure to finish both sides of the top equally.

[David Helm]

Generally good advice from everyone. Definitely get the bark off. I use a dull draw knife for this (works very well). I would also sand the edges to get a smoother appearance. A soft pad sander works pretty well. I use wood flour from the same kind of wood to thicken and color the epoxy. Put photos of the finished table on here.

[mike mcilroy]

Only thing I can think that hasn't been mentioned is: if you use a belt sander don't free hand it, make or buy a base for it so it doesn't rock. That's where the troughs Prashun mentioned come from. Try it on what you consider the bottom of the table. If you are comfortable with the way it goes proceed to the top. If you are unhappy see if there is a cabinet or milling shop nearby with a wide belt sander and find out what they would charge to flatten it before you finish sand it.
+1
I would love to make a table like that some day. I'm jealous

[Keith Pleas]

I am not an expert, but - frankly - a belt sander sounds like a bad idea. They are damned hard to control. There was an informal survey on one of the forums about which tool they could do without and belt sander won hands down - more people have destroyed more good wood with that tool than any other.

So if the surface isn't smooth or flat enough I'd look to hire that part out as mike mcilroy suggests - PITA to haul it there and back my gut feel is that it shouldn't cost much to have sanded to your satisfaction.

The high-strength screw approach won't be a problem if the base can accommodate the movement in the top. You weren't proposing fastening the top to iron channel, were you?

[Michael E Turner]

Thanks for the great advice! If you can't tell, I am pretty excited to make this table as well. I will post pics, although progress will be slow. I have 2 kids under five and a 5 month pregnant wife. Time is a premium these days.

As for expansion – the general consensus is that I am overthinking it. It will expand and contact but if I treat it like a normal table of this size I will be fine. (i.e., don’t rigidly mount it, finish it well on both sides) I had never thought about the idea of mixing the BLO with the arm R seal. This sounds like I would get the best of both worlds.

I am honestly surprised that cracking around the epoxy isn’t a bigger issue. I thought the rate of expansion between dissimilar materials would surely crack. And you guys have just used the five minute epoxy you buy at Home Depot? Nothing special or fancy?

As for flattening, I am scared to use a hand plane on this piece, a little less scared of a belt sander. As Jerry stated, the place I got the wood from did belt sand it already. I am seeing about 1/8” or a ¼” of cupping. I was originally thinking of using the base to flatten it out, however, I am worried I would twist the base. (OK, I will admit, I have built a live edge table before and twisted the base by using this theory….)

However, I do like the idea of pulling the work piece flat and only finish sanding it. One idea I had was to pull it flat using slotted angle steel and high strength screws. Screw the Angle Steel the width of the table to get rid of the cup. Slot so it has some movement, and mount the legs and the skirt outside the angle pieces. Part of my loves this idea, part of me doesn’t. Seems like Keith thinks this is a bad idea? Can you elaborate on why?

I am very glad you guys mentioned getting the bark off. This is a step I would have missed and regretted in a year or so when it falls off. Thanks for the advice how to as well get it off. I will probably start that this weekend and let you know how it goes..

Jerry, nice eye on seeing where the slab is from. I have to say, Berkshire is a nice outfit to work with. I bought the slab sight unseen and the slab was better quality then I expected. I live outside of Boston, but I actually paid the $300 for the delivery rather than driving the 2 hours to pick it up. I figured if I went out there I would be coming back home with an additional expensive slab for my dining room table.... I barely have time to do this project, let alone another one… My wife is very patient with me, but I think that would have put her over the edge.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I am not an expert, but - frankly - a belt sander sounds like a bad idea. They are damned hard to control. There was an informal survey on one of the forums about which tool they could do without and belt sander won hands down - more people have destroyed more good wood with that tool than any other.

Time for a yeahbut........

Yeah, but....they work great. Anything is "learnable". The belt sander doesn't wreck the piece, the pilot does. I have no problem with mine - and I use it rarely. But used correctly, it is fine, just fine. Start it up off the piece, gently lower it onto the piece - flat - and never, never, never push down. SImply hang on and point it where you want ti to go. Never stop in one spot, even for a second - keep it moving. To and fro, side to side, 45* left, 45* right. Simply use the handle to point it, and hold it back from running away.



As for flattening, I am scared to use a hand plane on this piece, a little less scared of a belt sander. As Jerry stated, the place I got the wood from did belt sand it already. I am seeing about 1/8” or a ¼” of cupping.


They were belt-sanding to smooth the surface, not flatten it. OR, it is possible the wood has moved since they did that. If they only took fiber off of one surface, that would contribute to cupping.




However, I do like the idea of pulling the work piece flat and only finish sanding it. One idea I had was to pull it flat using slotted angle steel and high strength screws. Screw the Angle Steel the width of the table to get rid of the cup. Seems like Keith thinks this is a bad idea? Can you elaborate on why?


You cannot succeed with this approach. You cannot pull that sucker flat, and the steel and screws will not stop the wood from returning to its "ambient" position. You are fighting the primal forces of nature. Don't fight it - deal with it. Get the bottom side flat - or, flat enough. Then flatten the top.

There simply ain't no way "around", there is only "through". You know what is "right", so just take a deep breath, drink a few beers, and do it. Don't look for short-cuts, don't risk that beautiful slab, and the next 100 years of the table's life.

And we are all sitting here in the cheap seats, cheering you on, so keep us posted, please. Good luck - this is gonna turn out great! :D

[Keith Pleas]

One idea I had was to pull it flat using slotted angle steel and high strength screws. Screw the Angle Steel the width of the table to get rid of the cup. Slot so it has some movement, and mount the legs and the skirt outside the angle pieces. Part of my loves this idea, part of me doesn’t. Seems like Keith thinks this is a bad idea? Can you elaborate on why?
Because I didn't think of slotting the iron! But as Kent says, that's very thick wood!

I would use West System 105/207 instead of quick epoxy.

[Keith Pleas]

How about a floor sander? Would probably catch at the edge though

[Kent A Bathurst]

How about a floor sander? Would probably catch at the edge though

:eek: :eek:

Now, THAT would be completely out of control................

[Myk Rian]

I made a coffee table out of redwood burl. Used a router sled to flatten it. A sled can be made to any size.
To attach the legs, I used threaded inserts in the bottom, and bolted the legs to them.
Take the bark off.

310000 310001

[Bud hill]

The last time i had a large slab 12' x 40" I called around and found someone with a belt sander. For $90 it was flat and I wasn't even breathing hard. I am making a mesquite coffee table now and am filing cracks using West Systems and black transtint. On my large crack I added one butterfly more because I wanted the look. I used desert iron wood for mine. I still can't decide on a base for it. I'm looking for the perfect stump.

[Scott T Smith]

I have a little bit of expertise in this area. Although I am equipped to plane a 6' wide slab, in your shoes rather than using hand planes or a hand held sander I would encourage you to build a router sled (check youtube for examples), as this will allow you to mill the slab perfectly flat. Then use a hand sander to remove the residue from the router bit (typically a 2" bowl bit) and you will have a very flat slab. Won't hurt to do both sides.

Many craftspeople who work with a lot of slabs will use a floor sander. You have to be careful though because it can get out of control quickly. The router sled is much more forgiving - even if you have to dedicate some time and $ to constructing it.

Personally I prefer West System Epoxy with 206 hardener as opposed to the 5 minute epoxy. The reason why is that I prefer to completely fill the void, and in the case of any internal checks the slow setting West System will wick into all of the nooks and cranny's as it starts to cure (the heat reduces the viscosity), and in the end the slab will be structurally intact (which should help keep it more stable over the long term). Sometimes you have to keep adding a bit of expoxy for the first 30 - 45 minutes as it works its way totally into the voids.

I also prefer to add color to the epoxy - typically black, as it works well with many woods. I would suggest that you do the epoxy work before using the router sled.

Yes, by all means finish both top and bottom with the same thickness of finish, and use slotted holes in whatever you attach it to. I like post catalyzed conversion varnish for any tables used for food, (to my knowledge it is the most moisture and chemical resistant of the commercial finishes) but it requires a controlled environment to apply.

The only place that I would consider a butterfly is by the arrow above the "42" chalk writing. To me, the little piece sticking out on the left might be a candidate to break over time.

Nice slab. Good luck with your project.

Scott

[Shawn Pixley]

As for flattening, I am scared to use a hand plane on this piece, a little less scared of a belt sander. As Jerry stated, the place I got the wood from did belt sand it already. I am seeing about 1/8” or a ¼” of cupping. I was originally thinking of using the base to flatten it out, however, I am worried I would twist the base. (OK, I will admit, I have built a live edge table before and twisted the base by using this theory….)

However, I do like the idea of pulling the work piece flat and only finish sanding it. One idea I had was to pull it flat using slotted angle steel and high strength screws. Screw the Angle Steel the width of the table to get rid of the cup. Slot so it has some movement, and mount the legs and the skirt outside the angle pieces. Part of my loves this idea, part of me doesn’t. Seems like Keith thinks this is a bad idea? Can you elaborate on why?

Don't be scared of the hand plane. Like a belt sander, the tool is not the issue, the operator is. With a hand plane, the mistake would be much slower and less dramatic than the belt sander. You can achieve what you want with any of three methods: router and flattening sled, belt sander, or a hand plane. I would choose the plane, but I have done all.

Pulling the slab flat - bad idea. Don't fight the wood, you'll lose. If you want to learn something, embrace the problem and overcome it. Flattening isn't that hard, and the skills you learn will pay off on other projects. Build the project and your skills for the future.

[Keith Pleas]

Personally I prefer West System Epoxy with 206 hardener as opposed to the 5 minute epoxy. The reason why is that I prefer to completely fill the void, and in the case of any internal checks the slow setting West System will wick into all of the nooks and cranny's as it starts to cure (the heat reduces the viscosity), and in the end the slab will be structurally intact (which should help keep it more stable over the long term). Sometimes you have to keep adding a bit of expoxy for the first 30 - 45 minutes as it works its way totally into the voids.
Is there a reason you prefer 206 over 207? I'm guessing that since you're coloring it black then the extra "clearness" of 207 isn't important.

Also, have you tried any CPES first?

Finally, if you're coloring the epoxy anyway, then it doesn't really matter if you add re-fill near the end of the pot life or do a 2nd batch later, right?

[Dan Hahr]

Based on your stated skill level, I would not even consider a plane unless it was simply to smooth the flattened surface. 6/4 wood is not that thick for a slab that big. If the only cup you have is 1/8th of an inch, I would not even consider trying to flatten it further. Jerry suggested that your slab has probably been machined to its current size and sanded. If it is an even 6/4, I would see if it can be flattened by hand pressure in the middle of the cup. If you can move it by human power, a decent size fastener will hold it just fine. Flattening it will not guarantee that it will not move further.

If you were to need to flatten it, the router sled method is probably the only solution you will be able to handle yourself. Trying to flatten that with event the best array of hand planes using your limited experience will drive you insane, and probably wind up scarring your expensive slab to the point you will want to take it somewhere to have it wide belt sanded. If you want to learn how to flatten a slab, start with something like a cutting board.

Dan

[Scott T Smith]

Is there a reason you prefer 206 over 207? I'm guessing that since you're coloring it black then the extra "clearness" of 207 isn't important.

Also, have you tried any CPES first?

Finally, if you're coloring the epoxy anyway, then it doesn't really matter if you add re-fill near the end of the pot life or do a 2nd batch later, right?

Keith, in most of my applications the epoxy is colored, hence the 206. The extra clarity has not been required for any of my previous projects, but I would think that 207 would be just as suitable as 206 (and more so if the clarity is desired).

I have not used CPES because the wood that I used the epoxy on was solid and not punky.

Correct re the 2nd batch. Often times I'm mixing up multiple batches when working with large slabs. I usually mix up what I will apply within 10 - 15 minutes, and then mix an additional batch.

[Michael E Turner]

Thanks again for all of the input. I really appreciate it. I managed to spend a total of 20 minutes on this project in the last week, but it was a solid productive 20 minutes….

All your responses have given me a few questions. (As I am sure you guys suspected)

I don’t know why I didn’t think of using west system, I have used it a ton on repairing my old house, and the stuff is amazing. Thanks for the input. When you use the west system, do you use the filler as well? Or just the Resin and the hardener?

Scott, Bud and Keith - Do you have pictures of what the epoxy looks on the work with both with the Transtint and with it just clear? I would like to give the sister in law an idea of what it will look like when it is done if possible.

I also don’t think I have given you guys a fair picture of what I thought needed Bow ties. I have attached a couple more pics with the grey chalk line of where I will roughly cut the table and two close up pics of where I have questions on the bow ties.
Bow Tie 1 the crack is big enough it is not structurally sound, so I want to bow tie it to make it more rigid. I think this is a no brainer.
Bow Tie #2 is my question. It is cracked most of the way through and if I cut on the gray line, the crack will be exposed. It does seem solid. Thoughts on it this needs any structural support? What if I bowtied it from the backside only.
These two would be in addition to the one Bow tie suggested by Scott.

I also decided to look at flatness of a few other dining room tables just for my own curiosity, (One of which I built and flattened with a belt sander, the other one that was purchased many years ago that I got for free) Both of these tables have around the same amount of cup in them as the slab that I am looking at. I have used these tables for years and never noticed the cup, so the good news is that the flattening part of this project is done. So I think the table is flat enough – Assuming I can get it done before that big slab warps…..

Thanks for all the advice on how to flatten it though. I will keep it in mind for future projects.

Shawn, As for the hand plane I 100% agree, the issue isn’t the tool it is the operator. I tried using a hand plan on a smaller slab to get it flat and smooth. I had marginal results to get it flat, and did end up scarring the wood that required a fair amount of sanding to get out. I have a lot to learn on using a hand plane and I am eager. Just didn’t think this big (And Expensive) slab is the best place to practice….

[Michael E Turner]

Well, after a few months of working on this a few hours a week, about 40 pours of epoxy, I am knocking on the door of getting the table top finished.

Here is what I have learned.
1) I should have moved a lot faster than I did - Since it was a big slab, and I got it in the winter, I didn’t want to move it in the basement where the humidity was 15%. So I moved it to my garage. Well, pregnant wife and two kids, progress was slower than expected (Shocking I know). I did all my flattening then near the end of the epoxy steps, I realized the slap warped again, as it was now middle June, and I was back to flattening it again. I got some practice on the back with my hand plane to get it flat, and let me tell you, I am happy I didn’t use it on the front…..

2) Epoxying was more difficult than I expected. I had never used west system without fairing before and it ran much more than I am used to. Using masking tape backed with packing tape did not prevent leaks. The leaks were not a huge deal, as I found them early and just tossed down wax paper. If I were to do it again, I would use a better tape, and cover my work bench with wax paper before I began. I had issues getting the holes to fill and remain filled, the epoxy would seem to fill into cracks, and holes and I would need to repour. Trying to fill all of the minor surface cracks with the epoxy was hard as the surface tension of the epoxy would not let it go into the small cracks. I even attempted to use a syringe to fill the holes with some moderate success.

3) I am happy I picked up a Rotex sander before I started this project. I spent several hours sanding this piece, and resanding the piece after it warped on me, and the festool certainly went faster than my ROS, left a better finish then my belt sander and extracted almost all of the dust so the garage was not a complete pile of saw dust after I finished it.

I am in the process of putting the final coats of finish on the table. I ended up putting 5 coats of General finishes Arm R seal sealer and 5 coats of the gloss top coat on the front and back of the table. I chose this because I know it is a very durable finish and I have bene happy with it in the past.

Attached are some pictures.

In my travels through the world of Craigslist, I ended up finding a rather expensive wrought iron base that I ended up trading the wood I was going to use for the table legs for. I like this because it gives it the contemporary/rustic contrast I was looking for, (and my wife is due in a couple weeks so, this is a much faster way of getting the table done and off to my brothers dining room…. I am calling this a win all around…)

I was planning on making a clips out of wood to mount the table base to the top and allow the table top to expand and contact without over constraining it, similar to the metal “S” clips you can buy to mount to the table skirt. Anyone see an issue with this method? Anyone have a better suggestion?

Thanks again for everyone’s thoughts suggestions. This was a fun project. Working on convincing the wife we need a new dining room table as I can’t wait to do another one.