GFI help needed.

[Raymond Fries]

I have a GFI circuit in my house as there is a breaker in the box marked GFI. There is an GFI outlet in the garage that I replaced about a week ago. It kept tripping after about 30 seconds. When it tripped, the outlets in both bathrooms went dead. Today the new one is tripping just like the old one and I have no clue what is wrong.

Any ideas on what I need to change?

Thanks

[Judson Green]

I don't think you can have 2 GFCI on the same circuit. Not sure if that's your problem though.

[roger wiegand]

The easiest explanation is that you have a ground fault and it's working correctly. First step is to identify everything on the circuit and unplug it. If it stops, great; then plug things back in one at a time until it starts again. The last thing plugged in will be your culprit. If it still trips with everything unplugged, then the fun begins. I've been chasing an intermittent one in a trailer for four years and three electricians now without success in resolving it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Actually, you can have more than on GFI on a circuit but it's redundant, overkill and not necessary.

I'm with Roger. The GFI is working and protecting you from a "ground fault" somewhere down stream. As he said.....find out what that GFI feeds...make a list of what outlets, etc. lose power when the GFI trips...... isolate them one at a time until it quits tripping. The last thing disconnected should be the cause of the trip.

[Dan Hintz]

I have a GFI circuit in my house as there is a breaker in the box marked GFI. There is an GFI outlet in the garage that I replaced about a week ago. It kept tripping after about 30 seconds. When it tripped, the outlets in both bathrooms went dead. Today the new one is tripping just like the old one and I have no clue what is wrong.

Any ideas on what I need to change?

Thanks

If you've connected bathroom to garage, I'm going to take a stab at it (no pun intended) and say a drywall screw has hit a wire during install and is now beginning to rear its ugly head.

[Wade Lippman]

If it still trips with everything unplugged, then the fun begins. I've been chasing an intermittent one in a trailer for four years and three electricians now without success in resolving it.

I had a similar experience, but only two electricians. I finally found a bad outlet that I never used and didn't know was on the circuit. It can be an adventure.

[Raymond Fries]

I had a similar experience, but only two electricians. I finally found a bad outlet that I never used and didn't know was on the circuit. It can be an adventure.

Hmmm - Maybe a bad outlet. I had a problem with one several years ago and the electrician said it was back-wired and the connection went bad. I took the plate off in one of the bathrooms and sure enough it is back-wired as well. Think I will change the wires to the screws and see if that fixes it.

I think there are only the two wall outlets, one in each bathroom, on the circuit.

[Kent A Bathurst]

....I think there are only the two....

Famous last words. :D

I've only owned houses built in the mid-20's, and I swear each owner in the sequence had some wiring work done - rerouting, extended, whatever. The outlets on any given circuit can be mind-bending...............

I am in that list too, of course. But - when I had to do something, I tried to rationalize the circuit layout - while at the same time changing it over to grounded............

[Jim Matthews]

Call an electrician.

House fires are no joke.
They always happen when there's no one
home to call the Fire Department.

Cheap money to get a pro in, before that happens.

[Lee Schierer]

I have a GFI circuit in my house as there is a breaker in the box marked GFI. There is an GFI outlet in the garage that I replaced about a week ago. It kept tripping after about 30 seconds. When it tripped, the outlets in both bathrooms went dead. Today the new one is tripping just like the old one and I have no clue what is wrong.

Any ideas on what I need to change?

Thanks

Your first step is to determine exactly what is on the GFI circuit by turning off the breaker and checking every outlet you can find anywhere in the house, so you know exactly what is on the GFI circuit. As part of this check the GFI outlet in the garage and see if it is still powered. If it still has power then your gfi circuit is okay. If there is no power in the garage then you have two GFI's on one circuit which is bad. Replace the outlet in the garage with a non-gfi outlet ad use a GFI tester to see if it trips the circuit breaker.

[Ole Anderson]

I'm with Ken and Lee, disconnect one receptacle at a time, starting at the end of the circuit and keep testing until you find the problem. If you can't find the problem, then call in sparky. You can do it.

[Myk Rian]

When you figure it out, put the garage on a separate 240 line with a breaker box in the garage. You'll be glad you did.
Even a 30 amp circuit will do.

[Wade Lippman]

I think there are only the two wall outlets, one in each bathroom, on the circuit.

That's what I thought also, then 2 years later I found the bad one was outside.

Is the GFCI breaker tripping on overload or ground fault? If overload, then getting an electrician in could be a good idea. I have only ever had one breaker trip inexplicably, but it could easily have burnt the house down. A mouse shorted a wire a few inches from some paper napkins. Every time I tried it to find the problem, there was a large spark which could have set the napkins on fire. A ground fault is probably less urgent.

[Mike Lassiter]

if by chance you have a whirlpool bathtub it would likely be on the gfi breaker by itself. That is how mine is. And as Wade said you should expect any outside receptacles to be tied into the circuit feed by a gfi receptacle as that is often how they are wired.
Also you might start with the outside receptacles first. Some time back we had this issue in single wide mobile home. Daughter said the receptacle in the master bathroom kept tripping. The problem was water was seeping into the outside receptacle and faulting the circuit. Metal siding and screws holding it to the wall letting rain seep inside and run down into the box. It could be a bad seal on cover letting rain seep past cover and wall. Easy to check by removing receptacle and checking for water or moisture inside outlet box

[Pat Barry]

I have a GFI circuit in my house as there is a breaker in the box marked GFI. There is an GFI outlet in the garage that I replaced about a week ago. It kept tripping after about 30 seconds. When it tripped, the outlets in both bathrooms went dead. Today the new one is tripping just like the old one and I have no clue what is wrong.

Any ideas on what I need to change?

Thanks
Is the garage attached to the house? Or is it detached and with the wiring running underground? If the latter, does this happen in the spring each year? Could it be the wiring underground is getting wet from the annual spring snow melt?

[Raymond Fries]

After all of the great advice and ideas, I believe the problem is resolved. Last night, I had disconnected everything from the three outlets that were involved and the GFI kept tripping. In both bathrooms, the outlets were back-wired. when I removed the wires to connect them to the screws, they were kind of green from corrosion. I am assuming because of the high moisture in the rooms. I plugged one thing at a time waiting 15 minutes between each device. the tripping is gone.

Today, I turned off the breaker and looked for anything else that was on the circuit. I found two other outlets in the attached garage and two exterior outlets as well. I plan to check those for back-wiring and change them.

I am a little concerned that the third outlet outside is not on that circuit. This is the one out front that was the subjet of a prior thread. It had 65' of extra wire and was stuffed under the house. I think I will look for an exterior GFI and replace that outlet so I do not have to worry about it. Any suggestions or will any brand do?

Thanks to all for your help.

[William Payer]

Ray,

Glad to hear you isolated the problem(s). Years ago ( the late 70's early 80's) it was common to have one GFI in an entire house and all the bathroom, garage and exterior outlets were connected on the downstream side of that circuit. Theses were days when GFI's were a little more costly ($20-25 in 1980 dollars) and copper wire (romeo) was very inexpensive. Fortunately nowadays GFI outlets are relatively inexpensive and newer codes require bath room plug circuits to be on their own breaker and GFI protected. Much more reasonable and easier to troubleshoot.
Back wiring was big back then too. Every outlet in my home was wired by backwiring (15amp as well as 20 amp) After reports of numerous fires due to high resistance in the 20 amp connections, backwiring was later banned in 20 amp circuits. Now outlets with backwiring capability will only fit 14 gauge wire in the openings to prevent 12 gauge from being used when back wiring. I went through my entire house removing backward outlets and have changed them to screw tightened connections to err on the side of caution.

[John Sanford]

What is this "backwiring" / "backfiring" of which you folks are speaking?

[Raymond Fries]

Backwiring is in my opinion a shortcut that was created to save installation time. It does save time but at what cost to the consumer? On the back of the outlets there is a hole where you insert a stripped piece of wire. Inside the outlet, there is a barb that pokes into the copper wire. This makes a really small connection point. To remove the wire, you push a small screwdriver into the little hole next to where the wire is inserted and the wire releases. I am not familiar with the backfiring term.

[Mike Lassiter]

I think "backfiring" was a spellcheck attempt at correcting backwiring. Sometime my cell phone completely changes words after I see what I type and hit the space bar often words and especially numbers become something that makes no sense.

[Raymond Fries]

I hate auto correct!!

[William Payer]

I think "backfiring" was a spellcheck attempt at correcting backwiring. Sometime my cell phone completely changes words after I see what I type and hit the space bar often words and especially numbers become something that makes no sense.


Yes, it was meant to be "back wiring" throughout my post. :)

[roger wiegand]

Just to be clear though, there are two ways outlets can be wired from the back. What I've heard referred to "backstab" connectors are the wire barbs that Raymond described, which are a recipe for disaster. There are also screw-down clamp backside connectors on higher quality outlets that (as far as I know) are fine, and a lot easier to use than twisting the wire around the side screw. From the many mangled side screw connections I've seen the the screw-clamp back connector is probably a better option for many people.

[Jason Roehl]

Just to be clear though, there are two ways outlets can be wired from the back. What I've heard referred to "backstab" connectors are the wire barbs that Raymond described, which are a recipe for disaster. There are also screw-down clamp backside connectors on higher quality outlets that (as far as I know) are fine, and a lot easier to use than twisting the wire around the side screw. From the many mangled side screw connections I've seen the the screw-clamp back connector is probably a better option for many people.

I'm sold on pig-tailing receptacles. Take a short length (~4") of Romex (or the appropriate colors of stranded wire normally pulled through conduit), and make all the screw connections, curling the wire clockwise around the screw and under the head so that it's drawn in when tightened. Then use wire nuts to connect the receptacle to the wires in the box. Much easier. I also tuck the wire nuts into the box vertically so that the wires are "capped"--that way debris can't collect in the wire nut. I don't twist the wires together first before nutting (but I tug each one to make sure it's secure--twisting may be required by code in some locales), and I don't tape (makes the wires nasty and sticky if you're ever in that box again--also may be required in some areas).

[Ole Anderson]

Personally I prefer the lug style receptacle, no backstabbing or wire bent under the screws. And I use the lugs to join multiple wires, staying away from wire nuts if possible. If I wire nut, I twist wires first but don't tape. I only tape around the receptacle screws if using metal boxes.

[Dan Hintz]

I'm sold on pig-tailing receptacles. Take a short length (~4") of Romex (or the appropriate colors of stranded wire normally pulled through conduit), and make all the screw connections, curling the wire clockwise around the screw and under the head so that it's drawn in when tightened. Then use wire nuts to connect the receptacle to the wires in the box. Much easier. I also tuck the wire nuts into the box vertically so that the wires are "capped"--that way debris can't collect in the wire nut. I don't twist the wires together first before nutting (but I tug each one to make sure it's secure--twisting may be required by code in some locales), and I don't tape (makes the wires nasty and sticky if you're ever in that box again--also may be required in some areas).

That's my method exactly...

[Rich Engelhardt]

I think I will look for an exterior GFI and replace that outlet so I do not have to worry about it. Any suggestions or will any brand do?We buy GFI outlets in bulk when they are on sale.
The high number of DOA ones and/or ones that "die" a premature death is something you also need to consider.

We usually change out the GFI in the kitchen & bath when ever we change a tenant in a rental.
We simply got tired of all the calls from new tenants about the outlets "not working".

There seems to be no one particular brand - even the Harbor Freight one - that's any "better" or "worse" than any other.
Cooper, Leviton, Pass & Seymore - - we've tried em all and they are all the same.

[Brian Elfert]

We buy GFI outlets in bulk when they are on sale.
The high number of DOA ones and/or ones that "die" a premature death is something you also need to consider.

We usually change out the GFI in the kitchen & bath when ever we change a tenant in a rental.
We simply got tired of all the calls from new tenants about the outlets "not working".


What are your tenants doing to break so many GFI outlets? In 15 years of home ownership not a single one of my GFI outlets have gone bad in two different houses. (My current house was just remodeled with all new GFIs. Old ones still worked, but replaced every switch and receptacle during remodel.) I am pretty sure my parents still have the original GFI outlet in their 1979 house.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm not positive, but, I believe they overload the circuit and trip them or the breaker.

Newer (like in the last 10 years or so) GFI outlets have become, IMHO&E, more sensitive and less forgiving. Trip them once or twice or three times & that's it for them.
The ones we had in a section 8 rental were the worst. IMHO - that's because they were tested twice a year. We replaced them 3 times over the years & only got a couple of months out of one of them.

The one we have in our bathroom that controls the outlets in the garage and the back patio was installed in 1986 & it still works fine.

The ones we've installed in the rentals, starting roughly in 2005, have been spotty at best. it's not unusual to open a three pack and have one or two bad right out of the box. I just keep track of where I buy them so I can return the DOA's and pick up more.
I have little doubt that all of the "brand name" ones all come from the same Chinese factory.