Large Table

[Rich Huhra]

I have a client that wants me to build them a dinning room table with a top 44"x 108"x 4". I suggested that the top be built with 2" thick material and then pad the edges with another 2" material to make the overall table look 4" thick. I think doing it this way saves material and weight. They want individual boards glued together not a solid top. Not sure what species of lumber to use? Worried about wrapping. What would you guys suggest for material? Would you glue and biscuit the boards? Should I add some cross bracing to the underside? Any ideas, suggestion, and commends would be helpful.

[Rich Riddle]

It's good that you want to make it out of multiple boards since finding 8/4, let alone 16/4 wood in a dimension of 44 x 108 would prove nearly impossible.

Make it in sections like one would make a Roubo benchtop. I would make approximately 10" sections (4 of them) out of 8/4 and then glue up those sections. After they dry, you can glue the 10" sections together. Usually I just glue this type of joint but you could use biscuits if those suited your needs. Some will inevitable advocate for a Domino joint. Around the edge I would place 2" pieces of 16/4 to get your total width. You need to discuss your table legs to see if reinforcement is really needed.

One additional thing, you will need five men and a mule to move this thing. Hope you don't need to go up steps.

[Rollie Kelly]

The mule just for supervision?

[Bill Sawyer]

Hi Rich,

I'm in the process of making a table 40 x 100 x 1 1/8 inch using Cherry. I glued up several boards, taking care that no heartwood was visible on the top side. The glued up table top is very heavy. I can just barely move it. If I can, I get my neighbor to help me with it.

I did not use biscuits or dominos, as they have the potential to become visible when cutting the ends of the glued up table top. I started out with boards at least 1/8 inch thicker than my desired end thickness. Using cauls and titebond extend, I glue up the boards as flat as possible. I built a sub-frame out of 2 x 6's to support the boards, cauls and clamps while everything is glueing up. When the glue has dried, I scrape off the excess glue, and bring the table top to a lumber yard with a thickness sander that can handle the width of the table top. This is not too expensive, and it saves hours of hand planing. I use a Festool random orbit sander to finish sand.

Now I am working on the structure that will support the table top. I'm using 16/4 Cherry for the legs. I have a sled with which I can saw the legs out of the 16/4 lumber on my band saw. I've also got a tapering jig so that I can cut tapers using the band saw as well. The rest of the support structure is connected to the legs with standard mortices and tennons. My main concern is to be able to support the table top so that it doesn't sag, while allowing it to move in the extensive humidity changes we have in New England.

I'm very aware that my method is not exactly low cost, and the result will be too heavy to lift by myself. My goal is to make a solid wood table that looks solid and durable and will be a good place for 8 people to have a hearty meal.

Good luck with your table.

[Prashun Patel]

If you are going to build up the edges, there's really no reason to make it 2" through the center. You might as well go for 5/4 or 4/4 and just do 4" near the ends and edges. 4" material will make a wonderful breadboard for your ends; just plan the corners properly.

You can add battens hidden by the thick aprons too - again, properly attached to allow for movement.

Using 5/4 or 4/4 material will afford you more flexibility for the grain matching on the top; it's just more abundant.

You will have the most luck finding compatible boards in the 6-8" range. Wider, and you'll really have to take what you can find. Narrower, and you'll be getting busy.

[Rich Riddle]

For selection of wood, pick a hard wood conducive to the darkness your client desires, with one exception - red oak. I never touch the stuff these days unless it's to match something already permanent. Cherry, walnut, maple, etc. all have distinct and nice looks to them. If you do go to 4/4 or 5/4 for the main table you can glue up wider sections and manage them. I also have better luck finding wider boards in 4/4 or 5/4 than 8/4, but that might just be around these parts.

[John TenEyck]

I'd make it out of shop veneered Baltic birch plywood, and convince your customer it's the right approach. I'd glue up two layers of BB ply to give me a substrate 1-1/2" thick. I don't think BB ply comes longer than 8 feet, but by staggering the joints you could use the 24 x 60" stuff w/o any issues. Then I'd saw my own veneer 1/8" thick and veneer both sides in a vacuum bag. That will allow you to use any species you want, even some very expensive exotic wood if you want (on the top only), and keep the cost under control. More importantly, it will give you an absolutely flat top that will never crack or warp. When it comes out of the vacuum bag it will be flat, and the amount of time you have to spend sanding will be minimal compared to a solid top. You can do any edge treatment you want with it without having to worry about seasonal movement. Same thing for attaching the base; no worries about accommodating movement. The finished table will look like solid wood but have none of the potential drawbacks associated with one. 1/8" thick veneer will look and function like solid wood and take any kind of abuse they dish out to it. I know your customer said they wanted solid wood, but what they want more than anything (and so do you, I'm sure) is a table that stays flat and functions w/o problems.

John

[Frank Drew]

I'm in the process of making a table 40 x 100 x 1 1/8 inch using Cherry. I glued up several boards, taking care that no heartwood was visible on the top side.

I did not use biscuits or dominos, as they have the potential to become visible when cutting the ends of the glued up table top.

Bill, can you explain about no visible heartwood on the top side? Did you possibly mean no sap wood?

As for using biscuits, some like them, some don't, but they can be useful for registering multiple boards during a large-ish glue up; keeping them away from where the end cuts will be made shouldn't be a problem.

[Rich Riddle]

Do as you wish, but as a customer I detest folks who try to tell me what I need instead of want. It's typically something that makes their job easier not a better product or service.

[Prashun Patel]

Really, Rich? I find - even in my short time doing this for the few customers who've had me - that we may end up closer to their side in the end, but their choices are sometimes unwise. When explained what is possible structurally and economically, my couple few customers have changed what they want. As the designer/builder, isn't it our duty to give them the options and help them understand the risks of their choices? Ok, here I go taking this off topic. Apology in advance!

[Ellen Benkin]

Solid wood? Heavy, with lots of opportunities to move and do bad things. I might suggest a good substrate and a very high quality thick veneer.

[Bill Sawyer]

Rich - Sorry, I should have said sap wood. As cherry darkens, the sap wood becomes ever more visible, and ugly IMHO. I've definitely learned this the hard way.

Ellen - You are correct. Solid wood is very heavy, and a 40+" wide table top moves a lot. It would be a challenge to add solid wood sidings to a solid table top in a manner that can handle the movement of the table top. I choose to add a bread-boards at the ends of the glued up table top. In the dry winter air, they definitely stick out.

Prashun - Maybe you could describe how you would construct a thicker solid wood edge that can handle the wood movement. I'm sure that dowels, battens or some method to strengthen the bond and line up the edges of the boards will work. I've gotten away with just glueing the boards edge to edge. I've never been able to glue up boards so that there is not some height difference somewhere, hence the trip to the thickness planer.

P.S. I have made a table using veneered cherry plywood with a glued on solid cherry edge. It has withstood several years of humidity changes. I rounded over the solid wood edge with a 1/2 " round router bit. After years of looking at it, the change between the veneered plywood and the solid wood edge is too visible, and the rounding doesn't please my eye. But that's just me.

[John TenEyck]

If you make your own veneer from the same wood used for the rest of the table it will look the same when it's built and it will all age the same. You can make the edges anything you want, big honking pieces if you like, just like with a table top glued up from solid stock. You can even use breadboard ends with no fear of the ends not meeting properly throughout the year.

John

[Prashun Patel]

The side edges are not an issue. They can be glued directly to the outside boards. Of course, if you want to give the APPEARANCE that it's all solid, you'll have to make those outside boards thick along the entire width or rabbet them, or else they'll look like edge bands, which may or may not be acceptable.

On the ends, there's a number of ways to attach the breadboards so they are fixed to the body of the table in the vertical dimension, but floating in the horizontal dimension. My personal favorite (bkz I have a Domino) is floating tenons in oversized holes. You can do that pretty straightforward with a router too.

Last, are you really sure the client wants a 4" thick table? That's darn thick. I would bet MOST thick block tables that appear to be 4" thick are really veneered torsion boxes or similar.

I made a 100" x 2" thick table a couple months ago, and it's massive. You might build a 1/8 scale model for them or Sketchup it so they can feel what kind of massive they're asking for.

My 2c.

[Jamie Buxton]

Here's a couple of pics of a dining table I built last summer. With leaves, it is 118" long by 40" wide by 29" tall. Without the leaves, it is 78" long. The top is 3 1/2" thick. I think the proportions work out okay. As you can see, it can seat 10 adults quite comfortably, and would handle 12 without much trouble.

The top is bandsawn Khaya veneer over plywood. It is just a box with no bottom. The base is solid Khaya. The leaves sit on steel arms which pull out from the ends of the top. Notice that the veneer grain is continuous for the whole 118" length.

The base unbolts from the top, so there are four objects to carry into the house: the base, the top, and the two leaves. Two guys can do it, with only a little complaining.

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[Andrew Joiner]

They want individual boards glued together not a solid top. Not sure what species of lumber to use? Worried about wrapping.

Can you explain Rich? First off 4" thick solid lumber is rare and will move and likely crack and check.

Depending on the design I would lean towards shop sawn veneer.



Beautiful table Jamie.

[jack duren]

I build 4" tables for restaurants but only use torsion boxes. I worked 12 hrs today just so painters could stain it tonight so it can be finished and shipped on Thursday. These are 30"x12'.

[Rich Huhra]

Jack,
i never thought of torsion box construction. Would I be able to use 1x6 material on the top instead of veneer? The client wants solid material on the top.
Richard

[Prashun Patel]

If you make the top 1x6, then the edges will have to be dealt with. You'll have a visible seam unless you miter the edges.

Not to be glib, but you need to have a heart to heart with the customer and let them know the options and have them choose.

Look, in the end, if they are willing to pay for a 4" solid top, you CAN do it. But you should just know your costs and caveats before they agree on a price and you set expectations.

[Jamie Buxton]

Jack,
i never thought of torsion box construction. Would I be able to use 1x6 material on the top instead of veneer? The client wants solid material on the top.
Richard

1x6 is going to expand and contract across the grain because of hygroscopic expansion. Plywood does not expand and contract. If you butt the 1x6s together, and glue that sheet down to the plywood, you're asking for trouble. When the 1x6 expands and contracts, the table top will cup up and cup down. You could use 1x6 the way you describe, but you'd have to leave little gaps between the 1x6, much like hardwood flooring is installed. But little gaps on a dining table are not a good idea. You'll get food into them.

Veneer works because it is thin compared to the thickness of the substrate. The substrate stays stable, and forces the veneer to do the same.

[Bill Adamsen]

If the client has asked for solid lumber, they may have their reasons. Drill down into the thought process behind their interest, to find out what those reasons might be. Air dried hardwoods in a 16/4 dimension can be found - at least in CT and certainly further north - though it would require some hunting. Solid wood, natural imperfections and live edges are a fashion rage, and while challenging to engineer, if you want the business and to meet the clients expectations/interests ... at least be prepared to consider building with solid wood. Solid wood furniture allows a great deal of engineering creativity and are commissions I covet.

Might point out the weight of the top ... let's see, 44" x 108" x 4" is 19,000 cubic inches which is 11 cubic feet. White oak weighs ~50#/ft3 so that top alone would weigh in at 550 pounds in White oak. White ash (lots available due to Emerald ash borer) or Cherry closer to 30#/ft3 so 330 pounds. Those are the kinds of figures that might steer you and the client towards a solution.

Good luck!

[John TenEyck]

No one can see the difference between a table top made with shop sawn veneer and solid boards after it's made. Except maybe that the one made with veneer will never crack, cup, split and do all the other things that one made with solid lumber might. If that's what your customer is hoping for well, by all means, make it from solid stock. But if they want a table that will start out flat and stay flat w/o splitting, etc. for as long as they want it, then educate them as to why a veneered top is a superior approach. It's not a second best solution, it should be the first choice. And you can still make it as heavy as they want, if that's one of their desires.

John

[Pat Barry]

Here's a couple of pics of a dining table I built last summer. With leaves, it is 118" long by 40" wide by 29" tall. Without the leaves, it is 78" long. The top is 3 1/2" thick. I think the proportions work out okay. As you can see, it can seat 10 adults quite comfortably, and would handle 12 without much trouble.

The top is bandsawn Khaya veneer over plywood. It is just a box with no bottom. The base is solid Khaya. The leaves sit on steel arms which pull out from the ends of the top. Notice that the veneer grain is continuous for the whole 118" length.

The base unbolts from the top, so there are four objects to carry into the house: the base, the top, and the two leaves. Two guys can do it, with only a little complaining.

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This is cool. What supports those leaves though, magic?

[Jamie Buxton]

This is cool. What supports those leaves though, magic?

There are steel arms that pull out from the ends of the top. They're 1"x1" square tubing, 1/8" wall. I glued plugs in the ends which are grain-continuous with the rest of the apron, and kept the gaps around them small. Most people don't even notice they're there.

The arms occupy airspace under the table top, where I had considered stowing the leaves. So the leaves stow in a closet.

[Bill Adamsen]

No one can see the difference between a table top made with shop sawn veneer and solid boards after it's made. John

Solid wood emanates character and qualities that veneered materials would be challenged to reproduce, such as in the attached illustrative example. The asymmetry, live edges and voids, engineered dovetails - all visual attributes - are much more complicated if not impossible to replicate with veneer. There are also non-visual attributes that may be important to a client. Some of my work lately has involved transforming timber from a family property into furniture. The ability for a tree to capture the carbon dioxide a family has created for ages, then mill that tree and transform it into furniture typically involves solid wood. Those attributes are not visual perhaps, but rather emotional and nostalgic, but irrespective, they are of equal if not greater importance to the client than the visual.

[John TenEyck]

I'm not arguing against the attributes of a solid lumber table. They can be beautiful, as your example ably demonstrates. My point was that unless the OP's client has a reason for wanting a solid wood table there are compelling reasons to instead make it from shop sawn veneer. Your table could not be replicated with veneer, but the OP was not considering that design. The description he provided was just a massive rectangular top. That can't be replicated with veneer either, but there are much more elegant table top end designs that do allow the use of a veneered top. As builders people pay us to give them what they want. But many people don't know what options are available and might make a different decision if we take the time to explain the pros and cons of the those alternatives.

John

[rudy de haas]

hi:

Check this one out:

http://www.keithlogan.com/Keith_Logan/Woodworking/Pages/dining_tables.html#14

it's by keith Logan - I don't know how big the final product is, but I saw the walnut slab just after it was delivered to him: at least 120" x 40" by 5" thick. Not cheap! but utterly amazing.

[Bill Adamsen]

But many people don't know what options are available and might make a different decision if we take the time to explain the pros and cons of the those alternatives. John

I think you've captured the salient point. Initiate the dialogue to educate both parties about alternatives and work to a consensus with everyone on the same page.

Ironically, I was engaged building a table today from White oak. The initial boards were 14 feet by 16 inches by 2+ inches. Cutting them down to size and jointing/planing was exhausting. I kept thinking of Rich Hurha's original post and the description of the 4" thick hardwood and wondered if anyone in their right mind would want to handle such material.

[John TenEyck]

How in the world did you manage to handle those big pieces across the jointer? Your job might have been even worse than Rich's since the stock was so much longer, but I wouldn't sign up for either.

John

[jack duren]

Jack,
i never thought of torsion box construction. Would I be able to use 1x6 material on the top instead of veneer? The client wants solid material on the top.
Richard

We use 1.5 on top and boards are only 4" max before glue up. 1 3/4 for the grid with a 3/4 solid bottom. Everyone will have an opinion and ours go in restaurants. Never had a service call on one and ours go from one end of the country to the other. I think these went to Best Western.

Like anything else you and the customer have to make the decision. You might try WoodWeb for professional advise as well...

[Rich Huhra]

Here is a design that the client was thinking about. There are two glass covered boxes built into the table top to display wine corks. My suggestion to the client is build it with 4" thick boards on the edges and 1 1/2" boards in between. Ends could be made to look like they are also 4" thick. Would use a lap or rabbit joint to help give the boards stenght and more glue surface. I think this would also help on alignment.