Flatwork vs. Roundwork - a Philosophical Question of Sorts

[Glen Blanchard]

While I was on the treadmill this morning, I found myself thinking about the skills needed to excel at woodworking - both flatwork and roundwork. I then began questioning which of the two held the greater challenge, and thought it might make for an interesting discussion.

I am well aware that both of these encompass large swaths of talents and skills and that each has its own subset of endeavors and interests. However, if the discussion is limited to flatwork as a whole and round work as a whole, my question is, which pursuit is the more difficult and/or challenging to master?

[Reed Gray]

For me, it was economical. I couldn't get enough $ for the flat work I did, mostly Shaker type tables and dressers. Turning was way better as I am much faster at turning. With the flatwork, I put more time into design than I did in actual making.

robo hippy

[Tom Giacomo]

I've done flat work and I have turned and I like turning better.

[Glen Blanchard]

But which, in your opinion, is more difficult to master?

[Jack Mincey]

On occasion I still do flat work, but it is because I have to. I turn because I want to. As far as which one takes more skill that is like comparing apples to oranges. At their highest level they both take a lot of skill. It would be hard to say if one takes more skill than the other. I do fell that at the beginning level that turning takes more skill. It doesn't take practice to run something threw the planner or table saw, but it does take a bit of practice before one turns their first well shaped bowl. Like I said this is at the beginning level. At the advance stages, think about it. How many people in the world can turn large hollow forms with small openings free hand like David Ellisworth.
Jack

[daryl moses]

You can make either one challenging or as easy as you can. I'm enjoying my lathe more and more as I can have instant gratification on some projects.

[Roger Chandler]

I also think it is apples to oranges comparrison. I still love flatwork........all the different joinery to master, like dovetails, mortise and tenon, sliding dovetails, quality miters......then techniques like veneering with vacuum chamber, stile & rail/ raised panel doors, bookmatching grain, and getting a superb finish on a large piece like a table......takes real skill.

I would say that to build something like a Pennsylvania highboy, or Jefferson secretary, definitely takes more skill than turning a bowl! When you get into adding embellisment like Gordon Pembridge does, and bring a piece to a high art level, then the carving, painting skills kick into overdrive.

For the most part, high end furniture takes more skill than the typical turnings that we are accustomed to seeing.

[Dan Hintz]

I would say that to build something like a Pennsylvania highboy, or Jefferson secretary, definitely takes more skill than turning a bowl! When you get into adding embellisment like Gordon Pembridge does, and bring a piece to a high art level, then the carving, painting skills kick into overdrive.

For the most part, high end furniture takes more skill than the typical turnings that we are accustomed to seeing.

Contradictory statements, Roger ;) Or maybe not... don't compare high-end flatwork (Jefferson secretary) with low-end turned (a simple bowl). I have seen flatwork that I couldn't hope to recreate if given a lifetime. And the same is true of turned work.

Even the most stalwart of one side could be impressed by the other, given the right woodworker.

[Thom Sturgill]

I have seen several turners that do both (myself included) and excel at one or the other. Which one depends on the person. Both can have fairly low level entries and very high level peaks.

Additionally, when talking flatwork are we talking highly milled furniture with mechanical joints (Kreg?) or hand-worked and carved masterpieces?

Turning are we talking simple bowls and spindle shapes, or more complex pieces like fine boxes or ornaments? A lot of good bowl turners are lost when it comes to finials.

[Prashun Patel]

Technically, I say turning is easier. It's variations of the same move.

Aesthetically, I say turning is harder. Turning to me is like the blues: it's variations of the same progressions, which makes the color and soul the artist imparts all the more important.

Also, you really have to distinguish between flat machine work and flat handwork.

Flat handwork is really hard to master technically. It's more like playing an instrument. Turning is like writing a book or playing chess: rules are easy to master, creation hard.

[Reed Gray]

For me, with both, the more I know about them, the more I realize I have yet to discover.

robo hippy

[Dennis Ford]

This part of your post seems critical to the discussion: "the skills needed to excel at woodworking - both flatwork and roundwork".
I believe that the basic talent required is the same.
I do both, fair at flat-work; better with turning. I used to think that flat-work required more precision. That would be true if comparing high end joinery to turning bowls but not if comparing free-form furniture to segmented turning. Some people will be better at free-form work and some better at precision measuring/cutting; both have their place in either flat-work or turning. Leaving out equipment requirements, what you practice is what you get good at.

[Scott Hackler]

I do both flat and round work *and sadly more of the flat stuff for the last 1/2 year) and think the comparison in wrong. With the lathe, we spend hours and hours and months and years perfecting the techniques and skill set. With Flat work we generally do NOT spend that much time on one machine or tool. The comparison would be closer to scroll saw workers and turners. Both concentrate on one machine and attempt to master that one. With most flat work, we utilize 1-10 different tools and while we may be good at all.... we are generally not the master of any.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I think they both have their challenges and skills to be mastered. Unless someone has mastered both to an equally high level, it would be difficult to determine which is more difficult.

Each of us have different natural abilities and different learning abilities that makes it difficult to make a fair analysis IMO.

At all levels in both modalities, there are skills to be learned.

What someone "enjoys" isn't necessarily that at which one can excel. I enjoyed playing and singing music but made a lot better living in electronics that I am sure I would ever have done as a professional musician.

[Thom Sturgill]

A good way to evaluate this might be to look historical. How long did it take for a cabinet maker to go from Apprentice to Journeyman, how long a woodturner?

[Mike Golka]

Each of us have different natural abilities and different learning abilities that makes it difficult to make a fair analysis IMO.



I think Ken pretty much answered this question, everyone is different and thus what challenges every individual is different.

[Jim Seyfried]

Don’t you think the answers might be a little skewed in the turners’ forum?

If you ask over in Neanderthal Haven it will be plane to see the correct answer.


With flat work I’ve destroyed parts, but I’ve never blown up the whole project. I can’t say that with turning. :o

[Dan Hintz]

If you ask over in Neanderthal Haven it will be plane to see the correct answer.

But the answers in the general woodworking forum will be a cut above... here, they start at one point, go far afield, but always come back around to the same conclusion.

[robert baccus]

One can be an artist at anything, even whitteling a cedar limb sitting on a stump.

[Bruce Lewane]

Interesting question but all the important factors remain pretty much the same
as it applies to all levels of craftsmanship.
It is what it is and you know it when you see it.

[Paul Bylin]

I think they are about equally difficult to "master". However, I do think that someone that can do both makes them better at both.

[Prashun Patel]

I understand that we're all being respectful of the respective skills, but which did YOU personally find harder to master?

For my part, I have mastered nothing yet, but have found achieving a moderate level of proficiency in flat machine work easiest, turning next, and flat handwork the hardest.

How about you?

[Marty Tippin]

I'm pretty awful at both round and flat work, so am finding them both to be plenty of a challenge...:rolleyes:

I do find myself generally doing one or the other almost exclusively for periods of time - I was going hard-core turning bowls and such last fall but then resumed work on a workbench project that's been in my way for about 18 months and have hardly touched the lathe since Christmas or shortly after...

[John Sanford]

I'm going to say "I don't know", but...

One KEY difference between the two is time. Setting the carving aspect aside (which I suspect is more difficult to master than either flatwork or turning), with flatwork you pretty much have near absolute control over time. By that I mean there's very little need to react immediately to changes in the material. Turning is more dynamic, more demanding of immediate response by the turner. in this respect, turning is karate, whereas flat work is tai-chi. With turning, you must always be on your toes, there is no real "contemplative" zone. Flatwork, especially with hand planing, allows one to zone in. This is the dynamic as it applies to hand tool work. Once the tailed apprentices enter the equation, things only change slightly. One doesn't have a good opportunity to go contemplative, but at the same time, everything is done in very discreet, atomic steps.

[John Sincerbeaux]

For me flatwork is way more involved than roundwork. My comparison is based on only my woodworking experience based on nearly thirty years. My typical flatwork projects involve maybe 10 different machines, 4 different routers, sanders and a variety of hand tools. Marrying commercial veneer with solid curved wood perfectly is about as challenging of woodworking I know. I relate difficulty to "fatal errors". Working with thin veneer is like playing in a mine field.
On the other hand, I have been turning for about a year now and the third thing ever off my lathe was my first ever attempt at a hollow form. I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to to create a form and hollow it. I then tried make a lid and finial. I did try three different finishes on it till I was happy. It is now in a gallery in Hawaii with my other flatwork. 309913309914

[John Sincerbeaux]

Have no idea why the hollow form pic posts upside down?
BTW it is an 8" Koa HF With a gaboon Ebony lid/finial.

I would like like to hear how a guy like David Marks answers the question. Obviously a master at both mediums.

[Dan Hintz]

For me flatwork is way more involved than roundwork.

Marrying commercial veneer with solid curved wood perfectly is about as challenging of woodworking I know. I relate difficulty to "fatal errors". Working with thin veneer is like playing in a mine field.

One thing I have not seen often is veneer (inset) work on turned items... the toughest of both worlds, I imagine, but the results could be quite amazing.

[Ken Barney]

I've done flatwork for over thirty years and have been turning for just under six years, and while I might say that I'm accomplished at both, I excel at neither. Both types of work are only limited by the imagination and since imagination is boundless I don't see how anyone can truly claim to excel. But then, I am probably my own worst critic.

Round work or flatwork, I do both for myself - for my own self-enjoyment and the personal challenge. I rarely sell anything that I make unless it is to help support the habit. Like most here I woodwork for the enjoyment. For the self satisfaction (or self-loathing) in stepping back after completing a project and being able to say, "I created that."

Both are challenging - if they're not then you simply haven't pushed yourself enough. Both take skill - how much skill depends on what it takes to satisfy you.

[Lee Koepke]

Think its been said a couple of times - excel - as the key word. Not sure I will have excelled - I do OK.
for me, I enjoy turning - my flatwork is limited (no high end furniture) and its where most of my $$ comes from.

What I found that I personally like the most is I very quickly realized that turning exposed more true beauty of the natural wood than flatwork can ever do. That seems to be my driving force to turning.

[Rick McQuay]

I can't answer the question. Turning requires specific tools, proficiency with those tools, specific techniques, and a level of machinery. Flatwork can be done in a wide variety of ways with a wide variety of tools and covers many different disciplines. I believe that most people hold bowls and other one-off work in much higher esteem than it deserves. There is more skill in creating 30 identical spindles than creating one free form bowl which is mostly repetition of a few techniques. But then you have segmented turning which can take months and involve several thousands of pieces, but only minutes of actual turning. So I don't believe the question, which is more difficult, has a useful answer.