Jointer head speed/ feed speed

[Jesse Busenitz]

I'm restoring an old 16" jointer and I'm putting a new motor on it which has me wondering what the "ideal speed" for a jointer head is? The cutter head is a 2 blade 4" diameter, and the motor is 3450. I also want to put a power feeder on it and the slowest speed is 15 fpm. Any info or articles would be greatly appreciated. Jess

[Ethan Melad]

i can try and measure the belts on mine this week - sounds like a similar head, but pretty sure my motor spins at 1750.
sorry, can't help with the feeder, though. if i remember right, i think you want to shoot for 20 knife cuts/inch- I'm sure theres a formula for figuring the feed speed to make that happen based on the speed of the head...but i can't help you with that either.

[jack forsberg]

I'm restoring an old 16" jointer and I'm putting a new motor on it which has me wondering what the "ideal speed" for a jointer head is? The cutter head is a 2 blade 4" diameter, and the motor is 3450. I also want to put a power feeder on it and the slowest speed is 15 fpm. Any info or articles would be greatly appreciated. Jess

Whats the maker and model.

[Jesse Busenitz]

Ethan, it seems like 1750 would be quite slow.... at least all the new jointers I see are running a 3450 motor... Jack it's a Greenlee Bro. 550

[jack forsberg]

Ethan, it seems like 1750 would be quite slow.... at least all the new jointers I see are running a 3450 motor... Jack it's a Greenlee Bro. 550
4600 to 5000 RPM can't say i seen a 550 before

[Kevin Jenness]

Jointer rpm's can vary a bit. We have a direct drive Northfield with a 3500 rpm motor, which I feel is rather low. My 16" runs at 5000 as does the Griggio at work. All three have approximately 4" diameter heads with the standard modern gibbed wedged knife pockets.

If you search the owwm site you will find a thread with pictures of a similar Greenlee 550, although the head on that was said to be 3". The head was a "clamshell" type with a rounded top cap holding the knife in the head. If yours is like that , be aware that it can potentially throw a knife if the threads have been stretched by overtightening. I'm not sure how to ascertain that. I can tell you that it did happen to my neighbor on an American 12" with a similar head design, and although he was unhurt and the machine was repaired with a new head, it was a memorable and expensive occurrence. Again, a query at owwm.org may save you some grief.

As far as the power feeder goes, 15 fpm should be fine for most purposes.

[jack forsberg]

Jointer rpm's can vary a bit. We have a direct drive Northfield with a 3500 rpm motor, which I feel is rather low. My 16" runs at 5000 as does the Griggio at work. All three have approximately 4" diameter heads with the standard modern gibbed wedged knife pockets.

If you search the owwm site you will find a thread with pictures of a similar Greenlee 550, although the head on that was said to be 3". The head was a "clamshell" type with a rounded top cap holding the knife in the head. If yours is like that , be aware that it can potentially throw a knife if the threads have been stretched by overtightening. I'm not sure how to ascertain that. I can tell you that it did happen to my neighbor on an American 12" with a similar head design, and although he was unhurt and the machine was repaired with a new head, it was a memorable and expensive occurrence. Again, a query at owwm.org may save you some grief.

As far as the power feeder goes, 15 fpm should be fine for most purposes.

I am running both my 16" and 26" plate types heads at 5000 rpm and there 5" round 2 knife. Is the GreenLee a plate type head? I am assume you know how set a machine up a jointer if you got a 16" if its babbitt bearing run it between 3600 and 4200 rpm. mine are ball bearing heads and can run faster

[Ethan Melad]

could be, i honestly can't remember right now.

[Bud Zeien]

I would stick with the speed the manufacturer set it up with. If you don't know what that is you'll have to do the math on the pulleys unless it is direct drive? Here's a calculator to make it a breeze.... http://www.blocklayer.com/pulley-belteng.aspx

Why do you want a power feed on a jointer, no planer?

[Kevin Jenness]

Jesse, so sorry for referring you to your own owwm post. That was probably not very enlightening.

[Jesse Busenitz]

309721 Here's a pic of the head... the bolts have been upgraded from factory, and it is a babbitt bearing. I'm going to be surfacing quite a few bf raw lumber through this machine, which is why I bought a 16" instead of using my 8" rockwell. Kevin no problem:cool:

[jack forsberg]

309721 Here's a pic of the head... the bolts have been upgraded from factory, and it is a babbitt bearing. I'm going to be surfacing quite a few bf raw lumber through this machine, which is why I bought a 16" instead of using my 8" rockwell. Kevin no problem:cool:

Jess as i said back channel(PM) this is not an Oliver type head. It is a plate type head that uses standard knifes not slotted of the correct thickness. i WOULD NOT CALL THE BOLTS AN UPGRADE ETHER. the head is made of forged steel and so it does not make sense to use a grade 8 bolts. There most likely 5/8 and what is needed is a matting metal of equal structure. All i can tell you is most makers of square head bolts use 4140 .so the head does not get striped out by the harder grade 8. the problem as i see it is the heads are to small to hold the plate down(lot of force to hold the heavy plate down when up to speed and the plate is thin at the hole) all of the plat type heads i have seen fill the counter bore with just room for a socket or spaner like the Oliver. these bolts are very much the same as square head bolts that hold thick slotted knifes

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/jointeraccident002.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/jointeraccident002.jpg.html)

here you can see what i mean in my head thought the wadkin head is stud and nut you should get the idea

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/head003_zpsce131e2d.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/head003_zpsce131e2d.jpg.html)

oliver head bolts for spaner
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/Oliver_Clamshell1_zps44a14087.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/Oliver_Clamshell1_zps44a14087.jpg.html)

your machine came with an option of a plat type round head over the square head in the 550 and this is Greenlee's versions of the safety head. I found the manual it it states that the round head does not use slotted knifes like the square head does. So my advise is to take a plate off and show me what you have in there because it is not correct from were i I sit and someone with little knowledge of the forces of cutter bolts in this type head has made modification to it. This machine is over 100 years old so i would hold off on the motor for a bit.

manual

square head

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/550_zpsvrfiotkk.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/550_zpsvrfiotkk.jpg.html)

round safety head the one you have

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/550%20a_zps6cjonfxp.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/550%20a_zps6cjonfxp.jpg.html)

Manuals states cutter block speed as 4000 RPM.

be safe

[Jesse Busenitz]

309759309758

Here's some pics.... the plate is 5/8 and it's 11/16 from head circumference to the post in the back. Also the post are 3/16 tall. So if I'm reading you right Jack, I need bigger headed bolt? They're a 3/4 head right now, and the blades I pulled off were slotted.. don't know the thickness.

[jack forsberg]

309759309758

Here's some pics.... the plate is 5/8 and it's 11/16 from head circumference to the post in the back. Also the post are 3/16 tall. So if I'm reading you right Jack, I need bigger headed bolt? They're a 3/4 head right now, and the blades I pulled off were slotted.. don't know the thickness.


Jesse i see your new to this and that you have a thread over at OWWM and i know all the guys that have chimed in on your thread there and there for the most part well meaning but not one of them have or use a plate type head . After all it was you that brought to there attention the head type in the first place was it not after I PMed you and gave you the run down on what i thought were the things to look at. it seams that there still telling you to use slotted knifes despite the manual information posted by Matty Melbourne stating otherwise in that very thread. So i can see that your being guided by people who have no personal experience with this type head and who like yourself don't read the Greenlee's own guild lines as I posted here above. I get that your trying to find out as much as you can but its really up to you to do your home work Jesse. I am going to leave it up to you to learn a bit more so you can weed out the opinions from the facts for your self. If you want someone to tell you what to do OWWM is all up to do that if you can weed through the opinions and get to the facts.

I will tell you you are missing the back bar that sits on the pins for registration and locks it in the head to gauge the plate to knife thickness so the plate pressure is up front at the leading edge. Can't see Greenlee using just the pins at the back to hold the plate up as that is just garbage and i think greenlee is better than that.

Good luck Jesse with your project and be safe.

[David Kumm]

I'm with Jack on this. That jointer is so rare that few of these heads are owned by anyone still alive. I would not run it until you know for sure exactly what type of knives and what type of bolts were used to hold it together. A good machinist will help with the bolts and maybe the knives but I'd look for real confirmation before I turned the machine on. Dave

[Paul Murphy]

My 16" euro jointer came from the factory with the 4.8" dia. cutterhead spinning @ 5500 RPM with a 3600 RPM motor. With the U.S. motor on it now, the cutterhead is spinning @ 5270 RPM which is more than fast enough for me.

The two things that make the higher speed safe is the modern wedge gib that holds the knife in place, and the dynamically balanced cutterhead assembly.

With the older cutterhead design and babbitt bearings, I would be nervous about speeds higher than the original design.

One consideration is adapting a modern cutterhead with more knives, or even one of the "shelix" heads. Some old machines are more easily converted to modern bearings, and I would research that option if upgrading the cutterhead.

Lots of used modern cutterheads laying around after straight knife machines were upgraded to "shelix" heads. Might be cost effective to adapt such a cutterhead to your jointer if the machine shop work isn't too involved.

In my use, jointer production speed is not a big issue. I have a power feeder mounted to my jointer, but hardly ever use it as it flattens some irregularities (or follows a twist) rather than letting the cutterhead make an unsprung flat face. Usually I skip-surface just enough for the planer to take over. In my projects and style of use the cutterhead speed doesn't really make a huge difference in the overall stock prep time.

Nice looking machine!
http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id=18964

[Jesse Busenitz]

as of now I'm thinking of replacing the head/babbitt bearings and reworking a planer head on pillow block bearings. Theres a nice shelf to work off of to mount a new set up without having to modify the existing machine. I need to take pics of the machine in it's originality and document a few things so someone can piece it all back together in the future if they so choose. Question.... It's a 4" head right now, but most planer heads are 3". Is this going to be a problem other than clearance as you lower/raise the beds? I can fab the head mount easy enough, and have a neighbor who's a machinist, so not to worried about that end. Also still pricing helical/spiral heads.... I know I love my spiral head planer, but they are a little more $$$... I thought about reworking grizzly spiral planner head vs. buying a custom head, but you run into 3" head again. Just trying to plan this all out in my head. BTW just got my tables back from being ground flat again..... so flat and smooth, not to mention pretty!

[David Kumm]

Stay with the larger diameter if you can. Most older jointers were 4.25-5" at that width. The angle of attack might be less important with an insert head but the mass of the bigger diameter over the 16" width will make for a better cut. A 5 hp motor will be the right size for that machine. Dave

[jack forsberg]

as of now I'm thinking of replacing the head/babbitt bearings and reworking a planer head on pillow block bearings. Theres a nice shelf to work off of to mount a new set up without having to modify the existing machine. I need to take pics of the machine in it's originality and document a few things so someone can piece it all back together in the future if they so choose. Question.... It's a 4" head right now, but most planer heads are 3". Is this going to be a problem other than clearance as you lower/raise the beds? I can fab the head mount easy enough, and have a neighbor who's a machinist, so not to worried about that end. Also still pricing helical/spiral heads.... I know I love my spiral head planer, but they are a little more $$$... I thought about reworking grizzly spiral planner head vs. buying a custom head, but you run into 3" head again. Just trying to plan this all out in my head. BTW just got my tables back from being ground flat again..... so flat and smooth, not to mention pretty!

got any pics of the table Jesse? sure looks like you on track to be able to do what you want with the pillow blocks. and ball bearing you can runn the head faster too. Seen that done well before with pillow blocks. the head size is more of a concern if your using the old bearings so a smaller head could be fitted if you block it up. Do the table side in and out as well as up and down? All you really need to see is if the the top of the cutter block can be set at the height of the old and the out feed table when set to 0. I make up wood mock up in the lathe when i am fitting cutter blocks. Going to be a killer jointer jesse:cool::cool:

[Paul Murphy]

Jesse, talk to the folks at Holbren and similar places that sell a lot of Byrd heads:
http://www.holbren.com/spiral-cutterhead-jointer/
As you can see from their website, they convert a lot of machines that have larger cutterheads. Ask them to forward your contact info to folks who will have removed a 4" x 16" cutterhead. You could also ask them to quote a shelix head just to explore another option. Consider placing a wanted post in the classified forum for unused 4" x 16" cutterheads.

I think it's important to stay with the proper diameter cutterhead to preserve the proper clearances throughout depth of cut adjustments. I like the idea of updating your jointer.

[Jesse Busenitz]

I'm doing some research and most of the manufactures are running around 5000 rpm. I'm wondering what pulley combo they're running to get from 3450 to 5000? According to my charts I'll need a 5" motor pulley and a 3 1/2" head pulley. I'm wondering how small I can go when running this much torque?

Jack, the tables slide in/out as well as up/in and down/out so I can adjust it to wherever I want and I don't find myself making major up/down adjustments on my jointer. I do like the idea of more mass of a 4" but buying a 20" spiral planer head and reworking it would be a LOT cheaper... Heres some pics.... should've cleaned all the dust off. Also you can see the "shelves" I'm going to build off of. Jess

I just called Grizzly and I can get a 4 5/8" 20" planer head for 1570$, tech wasn't sure if that included the inserts though. I'm getting a quote from both Byrd and Helix so we'll see where they're at $$$ wise.

[joe milana]

Jesse, great jointer! Surprised the tables needed grinding. By the looks of the pictures you posted at OWWM, the original planing marks could still be seen.

[jack forsberg]

looks like an easy conversion with the platform and the table adjustments. Tables look good. You want to keep the head pully smaller then the head so the fence can slide over top. Mass is good but HP is what does the work .keep us posted

[Ethan Melad]

FWIW I just checked my 16" American #1 w/ babbit bearings- it's got a 3hp 3-phase 1750 rpm motor, spinning a 10" pulley reduced to 5" at the head for 3450 rpm. works just fine for me. Jack, are you familiar with this jointer? would you recommend a pulley change at the head to up the rpms?

[Jesse Busenitz]

[QUOTE=Ethan Melad;2397102]FWIW I just checked my 16" American #1 w/ babbit bearings- it's got a 3hp 3-phase 1750 rpm motor, spinning a 10" pulley reduced to 5" at the head for 3450 rpm. works just fine for me. Jack, are you familiar with this jointer? would you recommend a pulley change at the head to up the rpms?[/QUOTE

That's one of the reasons, I'm thinking about going to ball bearings, as I don't think babbitt bearings are made for higher rpm.... someone correct me if I'm wrong. Also you can get more cuts per foot at a faster feed rate.

[David Kumm]

I no very little about babbitt but fpm of the shaft is what you measure, not rpm. A small diameter shaft can run at higher rpm than a larger one in a babbitt application. The type of alloy is also very important when getting to higher speeds ( mainly tin with some nickel I think ). I hope the real babbitt guys will speak up and teach us all. DAve