How Rare is an Engraved Independence Tool Dovetail Saw?

[McHunter VonSwearingen]

Hey guys,

Last week I picked up a brand new mint condition engraved Independence Tool dovetail saw!

Before going to town on a tool chest build sawing dovetails, I want to know the general consensus of this particular saw's worth.

Bought this for my daily user, and to ease my mind would like to double check I'm not destroying something truly of note by using this saw.

I'd appreciate any information from collectors or those of you who know a bit more than me about this saw.


Thanks for the help



http://i.imgur.com/bLwJqeA.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sT1Gq7K.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/QtiJbda.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/w0VPOSq.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/dnxvjbf.jpg

[Malcolm Schweizer]

It is certainly unique! I have never seen one. I would still use it. I am sure it is worth more than a standard one but not enough to warrant not using it. Another thought is you might sell it and buy a Lie-Nielsen saw and have money left over for another toy.

[Kim Malmberg]

I've never heard of the maker but even if I had I would still think that the maker wanted these saws to be used. And it is a lovely looking saw.

[Kent A Bathurst]

You might be interested by this link to Derek's site:


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/Father%20and%20Son%20%20Independence%20Tools%20and %20LieNielsen%20saws.html

[McHunter VonSwearingen]

My plan is to keep and use this as my main dovetail saw, taking the time now to make sure this piece does not need preservation.
In fact, I would only consider not using this saw if the inherit value demanded it remain unused.

Thanks for the link. Derek's site is a treasure trove, I've read many of his articles previously.
And always surprised when doing research just how many google top page search returns are links to his website.

[Dave Anderson NH]

The original Independence saws were made by a jointly owned company of Pete Taran and Patrick Leach. When they got tired of making and selling saws they sold the name and rights to Tom Lie-Nielsen. For a few years thereafter the L-N saws retained the Independence name on the spine. Eventually the Independence name was removed and only hte L-N name remained. For several years L-N offered engraving services through a third party on any tool they made. I don't know whether or not they still do.

As for value, it's hard to say since it is probably a saw from the early L-N years.

[Winton Applegate]

The LN will “hop” a little, and the danger then is that I lose the line. I have another dovetail saw, a vintage $10 John Cotterill, which like the LN is sharpened 15 tpi rip with minimal set but has about 14 degrees of rake (sharpening and setting done by myself). This cuts slower but with greater ease when starting and, thus, more reliability than the LN. All who have used this saw really like using it. What I really want is a saw that looks like the LN and cuts like the JC.

Side note comment on Derek's quote above.
That was exactly the experience I had with the large back saws WHEN CUTTING HARDER/DENSER THAN NORMAL wood. Specifically the dovetails for my purple heart work bench. I bought the saws just for that (one rip one cross cut).

To allow them to cut very controllably (got rid of the grab and hop)(which would not happen in more friendly wood) I just touched the edge of the teeth with a very fine diamond paddle (http://www.amazon.com/EZE-LAP-LSF-Super-Fine-Diamond/dp/B0001WP21O/ref=pd_sim_sbs_hi_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1T1234JT6QZ0RGMW2BZK) at a degree or two steeper angle . . . I didn't file the whole tooth. A secondary bevel as it were.

From then on we were best pals.

[Dave Beauchesne]

McHunter:

Neat saw; like previous answer given, the rights were sold to LN.
As for the engraving, could be a one off.
See attached pics of a LN dovetail saw I had engraved. It is my go to saw, I use it even though it is a bit flashy with the Acanthus leaves engraving.
Use it I say!, unless it is a special of some sort.

[Jim Koepke]

McHunter,

Welcome to the Creek.

Such a fine saw was made to be used.

jtk

[McHunter VonSwearingen]

Thanks Dave, glad to have that information though to be honest I was surprised to hear it is not an original Independence Tool. Still is an amazing saw and fits like a glove in my hand, I'm thankful to have it and will be sawing away soon.

Hey Winton, great tip, whenever I'm troubleshooting how to saw smoothly through some unforgiving wood I'll now know what to do. Thanks

Thanks Canadian Dave, you have a fine looking saw there yourself, and your saw's engraving looks a lot more detailed. The engraving on mine is deep and seems almost like it was put through a stamp press.

Thanks Jim, agreed, and glad I checked with everyone here, now I can get to sawing some dovetails with this beauty guilt free.

[Derek Cohen]

....
As for value, it's hard to say since it is probably a saw from the early L-N years.

The features of the handle of the saw are closer to my Independence saw than my LN saw. Also, I've not seen that wood on a LN saw, which has tended to be figured. It is quite possible that a previous owner had the brass back engraved. My vote is for IT rather than LN.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Zaffuto]

Go right to the source and ask either Pete Taran or Patrick Leach. I'll probably see Patrick later this week and if I remember, I'll ask him.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I was just about to say the same as Derek- I have only seen LN using flamed maple and rosewood, but this looks like it has a cherry or mahogany handle. Also I think the engraving looks like it was CNC cut.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I just took another look at the saw and yours is an original Independence and not a L-N. The stamp says "INDEPENCENCE TOOL" As soon as L-N started making the saws (mine is from the first batch) they lettered the backs " LIE-NIELSEN INDEPENDENCE 15ppi RIP" Other tool configurations came later. Sorry for the misinformation on my first post which was made from work.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I was just about to say the same as Derek- I have only seen LN using flamed maple and rosewood, but this looks like it has a cherry or mahogany handle. Also I think the engraving looks like it was CNC cut.

After reading this post, I took another look at the engraving and it does look like it was CNC cut. Also, the look is not my cup of tea, though seeing the saw in person may change that opinion.

[Winton Applegate]

McHunter,
I enjoyed seeing your saw. Thanks for posting it.
Please don't forget to show us what you make with it.

[McHunter VonSwearingen]

Thanks Derek, after comparing the differences between the LN and IT, the hardware and beveled brass back details are more like what is on your IT saw. Thanks for the vote

Thanks Tony, it would be amazing if you could ask Patrick Leach about this saw for me, hope it works out. I'd really like to know what ever else there is to know about this one

Thanks Malcolm, the handle does have a slight wavy figure on both of the horns but overall is no where near as figured as the L-N handles I've seen

Thanks Dave, for the explanation and clarification. The only markings on the saw that I can see are engravings and the Independence Tool makers mark. I'm glad to hear the general consensus has identified this saw as an original IT

Thanks again Tony, agreed, the engravings look and feel like they were machined, I know very little about metal work but seems the saw back was CNC cut over hand engraving.
Originally this saw was likely purchased from Highland Woodworking in the Atlanta area, very possible the engraved IT saw was a limited offering instead of being a user engraved tool

Thanks Winton, When I decide on something worthwhile to share I'll be sure to make a few work in progress posts. So far I'm really enjoying the lively and inviting woodworking community here

[Tony Zaffuto]

Expected to see Patrick Leach at the Brown sale in Harrisburg yesterday, but he was a no show.

[Pete Taran]

McHunter,

I saw this thread and actual joined SMC so I could answer your question directly. I did make that saw, it doesn't look anything like current production or early production LN Saws. I never had any engraved however, and the fact it is not stamped with a serial number suggests it was made around 1998. The handle is not as figured as some, but it varied from board to board. Every saw I made except for 3 were made of curly hard maple. I did make 3 ebony handled saws for Martin Donnelly before I stopped making saws.

I felt then, and still do, that the saws I made back then were excellent tools with no peer. I hope you enjoy using it.

Pete

[Stanley Covington]

Judging from the pictures, I believe the engraving is handwork. I have done a bit of hand engraving myself on longrifle barrels and furniture, and recognize the unique tool marks.

I doubt it will add to the collector value since Pete didn't sell it that way new.

Pete's saws are as good or better than any backsaw ever made by anyone, IMO. I say that as a collector and user. You can pay 3 times as much, but a saw bought so dearly will not be superior, only different.

Like any saw, the teeth and set need to be adjusted to match the wood being cut, the type of cut to be made, and the user's technique, Pete did, and LN continues, to ship their products with a general purpose tooth and set, which the user should adjust to his preference over repeated filings.

Despite all the hype, backsaws aren't rocket science, and are nowhere near as hard to make as a high-quality taper-ground, hammer-tensioned handsaw such as Disston produced in the deservedly famous No.12.

I suggest you use Pete's excellent saw, instead of relegating to the role of safe queen, and learn to file/maintain it properly. If you do so, it will do everything you need it to do, and will never let you down (or call a divorce attorney.)