Choosing an old planer ... on a budget

[Tom Deutsch]

Hi all - I’m new to the forum, so pardon me if this topic has been chewed to death already (I searched but couldn’t find.) I like older “buy them by the pound” tools and I’m trying to decide which 12-ish inch planer to chase after. My choices seem to be a Belsaw 910 or 9103, or a Parks. The Parks looks “cooler” to me- with the cast iron frame and all. Plus, it’s from Cincy, like me. The Belsaw, though, seems to be more common and maybe more parts available. Plus the ability to get molding knives, but that’s not very important to me. Quality of cut, lack of snipe and general toughness is. And cost - did I mention cost? The Parks should run me a good c-note or two less. I know Delta had an older cast-iron model too. I threw out a $400 offer on one that was priced at $800 on CL and didn’t get it. (I know - don’t be so tight … you get what you pay for… etc. My response is … 3 kids in college!)
Any opinions and reasons on whether to go after or avoid the Belsaw or the Parks? Or should I just get a used modern lunchbox Delta and settle down?

[Mark Wooden]

Powermatic, Delta, Rockwell/Delta, Parks planers are all good cast iron planers that are very rebuildable, I think the Belsaw's and Woodmasters used a fair amount of sheetmetal and as such aren't as heavy duty. You can still get some parts for a Parks, there's a machinery dealer in MD I think.
The Powermatic 5x12 is probably the best of them; it's pretty much an industrial grade machine and very simple to run and maintain. The Parks is a 4x12 machine and I'm told they can produce very smooth cuts.
The Delta 13" 22-101 (oldstyle) has a bronze worm gear that when worn or busted can cost more than the whole machine, if you can find one. The Rockwell 22-401 is a 6x13 planer with variable speed feed that cuts really nice and is very quiet. Not a lot around,and again,no parts.
The Delta Invicta planers, made in Brazil, are not bad either I'm told, but I've not heard a lot good about the Chiwanese planers
Of them all, I'd go for a Powermatic 100 first, then a Parks, and the others a toss up as good planers that are now hard to fix because of parts. There aren't a lot of parts out there for the powermatic, but then, they really don't break down much unless abused.

FWIW, I own and run a Powermatic 100 a lot, have a Rockwell 22-401 and an Oliver 399, which is a whole different animal. But the PM100 is my favorite

[Tom Deutsch]

Thanks Mark - Good points. Looks like the Powermatics command more than I'm able to spend though. Looking to nab something locally/regionally (i.e. not eOverPay) for $300-$500.

[Judson Green]

Had a parks, gave it to a buddy when I got a 20" PM. Great machine, well built. I think it would serve you well. Dust collection was nonexistence on the parks, but maybe you could rig something up.

Honestly though if I was gonna do a 12-13" again I'd get a lunch box. Probably not as good a finish but I'd never consider the last pass of a planner to be the finished surface. Also probably louder. But a ton lighter if space is a issue.

In full disclosure I have no planner right now (got out of the woodworking business) but would like to get a lunch box.

[John TenEyck]

I bought a well used and somewhat abused Foley-Belsaw 910 about 5 years ago. It's a very simple machine and easy to work on. I paid $250 for it, which included the ripping attachment and quite a few molding knives. I put about $75 in it to replace most of the bushings and springs, and another $50 or so on a new set of Titan knives. I've used it extensively (several thousand BF) since then and haven't had to put any more money in it. It's a really crude machine (at least compared to my Inca J/P), rattles and shakes when it starts up and shuts down, but nothing slows it down with that 5 HP motor and the finish is plenty good. It is subject to snipe, but when that's an issue I just run a piece of scrap in front of and behind the first and last board. I've run quite a bit of molding with it, too, which is the original reason I bought it. If you can find one or a Woodmaster, and can get it for a good price, I doubt you would be disappointed, and you can always sell it for about what you paid for it should you find something you'd rather have. I'm sure you would be equally happy with any of the machines discussed above, too, and I'd buy the first one that comes along that fits your budget.

John

[Don Jarvie]

The Belsaw is a very good planer for the price. I have the 9103 model with a 3 hp R/I motor on it and it will plane anything. Belsaw is still in operation so you can get parts. They are a very simple machine. If you find one check the rollers. They are neoprene and can be dried out but they can be replaced. I've seen them in the 100 to 250 range which is very reasonable.

[John C Bush]

Hi Tom,
I had a Parks for 10 + years and had great results with it. Very solid and powerfull. I upgraded to a 20"er with spiral cutter and don't get as smooth finish as the parks. Mine was in great shape with the full cast iron base and I think I sold it for ~$800 a few years ago. Setting the blades was not difficult and sharpening was ~$7per blade(3). It is a workhorse and does a great job so if you can get it at a good price it would be a good choice. If you won't be milling lots of stock and don't need wider capacity a lunch box may be a more reasonable choice. It's always fun to upgrade!!

[Don Jarvie]

I bought a well used and somewhat abused Foley-Belsaw 910 about 5 years ago. It's a very simple machine and easy to work on. I paid $250 for it, which included the ripping attachment and quite a few molding knives. I put about $75 in it to replace most of the bushings and springs, and another $50 or so on a new set of Titan knives. I've used it extensively (several thousand BF) since then and haven't had to put any more money in it. It's a really crude machine (at least compared to my Inca J/P), rattles and shakes when it starts up and shuts down, but nothing slows it down with that 5 HP motor and the finish is plenty good. It is subject to snipe, but when that's an issue I just run a piece of scrap in front of and behind the first and last board. I've run quite a bit of molding with it, too, which is the original reason I bought it. If you can find one or a Woodmaster, and can get it for a good price, I doubt you would be disappointed, and you can always sell it for about what you paid for it should you find something you'd rather have. I'm sure you would be equally happy with any of the machines discussed above, too, and I'd buy the first one that comes along that fits your budget.

John

To address the snipe adjust your outfeed table upwards slightly on the front of it. I find that if I pull the board up a hair when it comes off the outfeed table the snipe goes away.

[Jim Dwight]

I used a manual feed INCA jointer with the planner attachment initially. It was only 8 5/8 wide. The manual feed was a bigger issue. So I upgraded to a very used Ryboi AP-10. It is the original lunchbox planner. It had extremely dull knives when I got it but I ordered a set and started sharpening. Before the new knives arrived I had the old ones sharp and I haven't changed them. It is 10 inches wide but most boards are less than that. It is fine for what I do. We moved so I am doing house projects and trying to get my shop garage set up. I'm sure a bigger, more powerful planner would plane boards in less passes and occasionally I have to rip a board into two pieces before planeing. But I only paid $100 for the Ryobi, it doesn't take up a lot of space, and it is a whole lot less work than the manual feed INCA. I've built half a dozen bedroom sets starting from rough hardwood so it has been used.

[Matthew Hills]

where are you located?
if you've got an active craigslist, easiest to just keep a filter running to notify you when any candidates show up.
I got my Parks that way. Occasionally see the old powermatics, too.

Matt

[Joseph Montroy]

The first machine I bought was a pm100. Rock solid. I'd highly recommend it if you can find one. The craigslist app is your friend. Cheap machines go QUICK!

[Tom Deutsch]

Good input - thanks, everyone. If I went for the Belsaw, it would be because the of the ability to use the molding knives. How practical is this aspect of the machine vs having a simple router table or shaper head? Is it a pain to change from the planer knives to the molding knives and back (setup, adjustment, etc) or is it simpler than that?

[Allan Speers]

great thread. I'm also in the market for a step-up from my Makita 2012B lunchbox, because I have a huge amount of long, heavy boards to process.

But a followup question: I of course understand that some old machines were made to a higher standard, in many ways, and that's important. However what's the fascination with "solid cast iron?" I get that with a table saw, or a bandsaw, where every bit of vibration absorption is critical. However, no one usually expects finished quality from a planer, so shouldn't other factors be more important? (Not to mention, the finish from my Makita is excellent, and I've seen the finish from a DW735/Byrd head combo that was basically finish-ready.)

I ask because I've been eyeballing a few PM100's, but I'd be LUCKY to find one for $1,000, in any condition. Almost the same for the Parks. By comparison, I've seen Belsaw and WM 12" models go for around $500. Additionally, the WM has an infinitely variable feed rate, which should yield a better finish than the PM can, assuming one is not in a hurry. (Byrd heads are available for all three machines, of course.) And the WM, along with one vintage Delta, has bigger in-out tables, All the PM's I've seen have (literally) none.

And still, the web is chock full of massive praise for the PM100. What makes that machine so worthwhile? Or is it more a case of "big ol' arn" love?

[David Kumm]

If you talk to the old iron guys, the PM 100 is a favorite as is the older Rockwell 13". The pick of the litter is the General 14" planer. They are like gold. Parks are very good but you need to know something about them to tell the good from the bad as they are a more complicated design. The molder- planers are versatile but sometimes the finish might be less than what you can obtain with a dedicated planer. The nature of the moding capability means no chipbreaker or pressure bar and feed rollers set far from the head. It is a design compromise. Dave

[Bill Adamsen]

There was a description of all the various mechanics - basically the six various components of a planer - in a post a few years back that's worth a look just to familiarize oneself with the different mechanics. What he missed, and like others have said above, in most cases it is helpful to have dust (shaving) collection, in some cases is absolutely imperative. Good luck!

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?35764-Planer-recommendations&p=354598

[Harold Weaver]

Go with the PM 100 if you can find one. Built like a tank and simple in design. Belt drive with no oily gear box to deal with. I'd steer clear of the older Delta 13 in that size range simply because they used a brass gear inside their oil gearbox which was the Achilles heel on that unit. Those brass gears proved to wear and damage rather quickly, not to mention that gear is no longer available. Friend of mine had one made along with some other OWWM members in a group buy type situation, and they still cost over $200 each. Any of those older planers mentioned are good units, but as with anything else old, inspect, inspect, inspect.......My PM 100 was a gift from the guy with the Delta gear problem so I could not complain about the price, but the caveat was that it was already torn down and in boxes.....a kit you might say, with original 3 HP motor. But after a thorough inventory, luckily everything is there. All I need is some new oilite bushings for the pulleys and some off the shelf nuts and bolts. Not bad for a machine that was built in 1955. I understand this kind of stuff is not for everyone, but try to snag on of the newer 100s and you won't be disappointed.

[Peter Kelly]

I'd look for a Makita 2030 j/p or 2040 400mm planer.

Great Little machine. Should be in your price range.

[Allan Speers]

..... The molder- planers are versatile but sometimes the finish might be less than what you can obtain with a dedicated planer. The nature of the moding capability means no chipbreaker or pressure bar and feed rollers set far from the head. It is a design compromise. Dave

Wow, that's good to know. I was just about to buy a WM712, but now I'm back on the fence.


I HATE this bloody fence ........

[David Kumm]

I've got a 712. Good machine and decent molder. I would have to swap heads to use the planer and didn't think the machine warranted that much work. If you really needed the molding part, it is decent compromise. Not quite as nice a planer but it does have variable speed and 5 hp motor so a very good roughing planer. Dave

[Allan Speers]

Go with the PM 100 if you can find one. Built like a tank and simple in design. Belt drive with no oily gear box to deal with. I'd steer clear of the older Delta 13 in that size range simply because they used a brass gear inside their oil gearbox which was the Achilles heel on that unit. Those brass gears proved to wear and damage rather quickly, not to mention that gear is no longer available. Friend of mine had one made along with some other OWWM members in a group buy type situation, and they still cost over $200 each. Any of those older planers mentioned are good units, but as with anything else old, inspect, inspect, inspect.......My PM 100 was a gift from the guy with the Delta gear problem so I could not complain about the price, but the caveat was that it was already torn down and in boxes.....a kit you might say, with original 3 HP motor. But after a thorough inventory, luckily everything is there. All I need is some new oilite bushings for the pulleys and some off the shelf nuts and bolts. Not bad for a machine that was built in 1955. I understand this kind of stuff is not for everyone, but try to snag on of the newer 100s and you won't be disappointed.

great stuff.

- Two things really bug me about the PM100, maybe you could add your thoughts?

1: Steel serrated rollers. I know these are supposed to be better overall than rubber rollers, and require less maintenance, but I've also read that they can cause marks in softer woods. I'm planning on getting a Byrd head, partly for low noise but also to get as close to a final finish as possible. So what's the deal with this?

Also, in a thread at OWWM, they talk about how old steel rollers can lose their edge & thus their grip, and that it is often necessary to get them sharpened or reground or whatever. I have absolutely no idea what that would involve, or who I'd contact to do it. That's a little scary when considering a 50 year old machine.


2: No vari-speed? Seriously? Is there any work-around for this, like adding a dual pulley or something?

[Joseph Montroy]

great stuff.

- Two things really bug me about the PM100, maybe you could add your thoughts?

1: Steel serrated rollers. I know these are supposed to be better overall than rubber rollers, and require less maintenance, but I've also read that they can cause marks in softer woods. I'm planning on getting a Byrd head, partly for low noise but also to get as close to a final finish as possible. So what's the deal with this?


2: No vari-speed? Seriously? Is there any work-around for this, like adding a dual pulley or something?

The serrated rollers have left no marks for me, even on poplar, cherry, or walnut (the softest woods I use). And there is absolutely no need for vari-speed on the pm100. It just planes. Dead on reliable.

[David Kumm]

You want 15-20 fpm single speed on older 2-3 hp planers. They are not made for fast and some of the generic 15" had two speeds, too fast and faster. Dave

[Tom Deutsch]

Thanks everybody - I picked up a Parks. I got the "supposedly" model. Supposedly it had been purchased new in the 60s or 70s by a doctor - the grandfather of the man who sold it to me from his pole barn which had no electric (so no test run). Supposedly it ran fine the last time it was plugged in. I've posted a second thread asking for help already. LOL (Fortunately - this fool has no more money to be parted from.)

[Bill Adamsen]

The serrated rollers have left no marks for me, even on poplar, cherry, or walnut (the softest woods I use).

My planer will leave roller serration marks on White pine (very soft) if I take off less than about 2/100 ths (about 1/64th) - which typically happens if the material is a bit scant on thickness and gets lightly planed. I could probably adjust the roller pressure to reduce that impact, but then I'd have to go back and increase it afterward. It's a 16" (410mm) european machine.

[Robert Parent]

I picked up a nice used RBI 12 inch about 4 years ago, it's a great machine. I also got the drop in molding head and a bunch of cutters. I replaced the rubber rollers last year and parts were still available at a reasonable cost. I sold the lunchbox planers as this one will last longer than I will and does a much nicer job.

Robert

[Allan Speers]

Man, sitting on this bloody fence is REALLY starting to chaff my butt !

What to do... what to do .... ?


Arrrrrggggghhhhh ................

[Rick Alexander]

Dad got his parks around 1972. It's the 12 inch variety - dark gray in color - 3 HP motor that looks like it should be at least a 5 or better because of the size of the motor frame. No telling how many 1000's of BF of rough lumber has been put through that thing and it just still works perfect. Looks a little rough - leaks a little gear oil - enough to have to add some about every year or so - just enough to be aggravating but not enough to do anything about. Original bearings. Old steel segmented roller seems to pull just fine so I'm assuming it's still got some grip to it. Some of the rougher boards you have to help get going sometimes but I have a feeling with rough lumber that's pretty common plus it did that when it was new. I just don't think you can beat it for it's ruggedness. Only thing is - portable it aint. I wonder why you couldn't have molding cutters made for it? Never thought about that - we don't use it nearly as much since we got the 20 inch with Byrd cutters so that option sure would be nice if it's even possible. Even if you had to recondition it some - well worth the effort to do so if you found one in a little rough shape.

I've seen them about 2 or 3 times a year on CL around here in GA. Never seem to see the 20 inch variety - I guess they never leave the owner's hands but the 12 inchers do appear rarely.

[Tom Deutsch]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I didn't want to leave a bad impression about the Parks, since my last post was about expecting trouble after I got it home and it wouldn't fire up. The Baldor motor just had a bad capacitor from sitting so long. Ultra simple fix, of course. I love the Parks planer - plenty of power and a nice smooth cut. Heavy and steady. Good-looking too. Much more pleasant sounding than the lunchboxes, for sure.
The reason I even thought of this post is because I am right now hunting a 1970 Belsaw molder planer near me that's priced temptingly. So, with any luck, I may soon be able to do a side-by-side of these two units. Wooo! Do I really "need" both? Heck, do I even need one? :)

[Curt Harms]

The reason I even thought of this post is because I am right now hunting a 1970 Belsaw molder planer near me that's priced temptingly. So, with any luck, I may soon be able to do a side-by-side of these two units. Wooo! Do I really "need" both? Heck, do I even need one? :)

Of Course you do

You're welcome :D.

[Marty Schlosser]

Tom,

Unless you're planning to do a fair amount of moulding a decent router installed in an equally decent router table should satisfy your requirements. I know several individuals who purchased such dual-purpose planers and in the end never used them as a molding machine.

I'd advise you to get the highest quality used planer you can afford. If that means you get a Belsaw, then that's fine too. But don't let the molding option sway your decision unless you genuinely plan on making a lot of your own molding.



Good input - thanks, everyone. If I went for the Belsaw, it would be because the of the ability to use the molding knives. How practical is this aspect of the machine vs having a simple router table or shaper head? Is it a pain to change from the planer knives to the molding knives and back (setup, adjustment, etc) or is it simpler than that?