Dumb plumbing question re:installing shutoffs.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

We'd like to replace our kitchen sink and the small four counter it's in.

Problem is the shut-off valves don't really shut off fully. Wasn't a big problem when I replaced the faucet, but this might take a while, so I'd like something that shuts off properly, without having to run to the basement to shut the whole thing off.

The plumbing under there is more than a bit cramped, (the drain pipe is a run a bit weird, and the supply pipes snake in oddly from the bathroom behind it.) Honestly, I ought to have all that plumbing redone at some point, and I probably will, but for now I'd just like to get some functioning shut-offs in here. The cramped nature of the space makes sweating on new fittings less than ideal, at least with my skills.

The best way, I suppose would be a compression fitting on the end of the pipes, but I was at Lowes and saw these:

http://www.lowes.com/pd_272589-143-K2071PCLF_0__?productId=3191029

It could easily take the 3/8 compression threaded hose to the faucet on the out-bound end, and it looks to me that the fitting on the inlet is exactly the same as the fitting on these hoses, although the ferrule is loose rather than captured. I'm probably missing something entirely, but is there any reason why threading this onto the threaded fittings on the existing pipe, and then rethreading the sink hoses on the end of it wouldn't work?

I guess these valves, labelled for copper pipe, could be for a traditional compression fitting around 3/8" copper (though I've never seen such a thing in use - maybe for fridge water supplies or something? So maybe there should be a rubber washer in there as well, like the end of the supply hose has?

Am I totally nuts?

[ryan paulsen]

If you're going to redo the plumbing again at some point, why not just get a 3/8" compression cap. Shut off the main, close and cap the shutoffs, turn main back on. Piece of cake.

[Tom M King]

I haven't used compression fitting supply lines to a faucet since the 1970s. Go to Lowes or Home Depot, and find the supply lines that screw onto the end that the supply line comes out of to go to the faucet. Get the braided stainless covered ones. Anyone can get them on first time without leaking. They come in a variety of end types, including ones that can screw right onto an old compression socket end. You have to hold your mouth right to get a compression sleeve hard line to work, and then they aren't good to reuse. The screw on braid covered lines can be reused any number of times.

If you can find the valves that match the ones you have, but new ones, screw out the nut that the handle comes out of, and swap it back into the old body. If the seat is not bad in the original, it should go back to being able to turn the water off.

Those quarter turn cutoffs, like in your link, work fine. If you have to replace the whole valve on copper, I'd get the sweat on type. If you do solder it on, take all the guts out of the valve so you don't heat damage anything that's not metal.

Look around in the plumbing aisles, and it should start to make sense to you. You might even find someone in there that can help you. It seems like I help someone in the plumbing and electrical sections every time I go into one of those stores. Personally, I'd avoid compression fittings.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Haven't seen one of those, I'll have to check the local plumbing supply. The cap would screw onto the existing fittings, where the supply hose to the faucet connects?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

So I'm confused about compression fittings -

I think of "compression fitting" as those things, where a ferrule-type ring goes around the pipe after you put the loose nut on, and then it slightly flanges the pipe as you put it on.

Yeah, I don't care for those.

But the braided steel hoses I have, they have captured ferrule things, that go *inside* the end of the pipe. The end of the pipe has a 3/8" thread. The braided steel hose threads onto that end. The other end has something like a 1/2" FIP or something to thread to my faucet.

But that hose says it is a "compression fitting" as well.

So these faucet shut offs say "compression fitting" for both ends. One end looks exactly like the end of my braided steel hose to the faucet, but the ferrule that goes inside the threaded end of the pipe is loose. The other end is just open threaded, and the braided faucet hose could screw onto that.

That's what I'm thinking of doing - basically threading this onto the end of the existing threaded end on the pipe, and then the hose onto the end of this fitting.

[ryan paulsen]

Haven't seen one of those, I'll have to check the local plumbing supply. The cap would screw onto the existing fittings, where the supply hose to the faucet connects?

Right, you would remove the supply hose from the shutoff, turn off the shutoff (if it moves), and cap the end of the shutoff. This would be a temporary fix, but would allow you to turn the main water supply on while you work on your kitchen.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Watts-3-8-in-Lead-Free-Brass-Compression-Cap-LF-A105/202267217?keyword=3%2F8+compression+cap

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Oh wait - I see exactly what's going on. These don't look like I'm thinking they do at all. I remember taking the thing apart to compare ends and such - these have the traditional "compression" fitting with the external ferrule. I'm imagining the nut the way at appears in my brain, when it's not attached to the valve.

God, I can be dumb. Sorry guys.

So the question now - is there a quarter-turn valve I can screw onto the end of the existing 3/8" threaded section of my existing supply pipe? I'll have to take a look.

[ryan paulsen]

The 3/8" threaded end of the valve will work with either the hard line 3/8" compression fitting (using the ring) or the 3/8" fitting on the end of the hose. The valves come with a new ring for if you are using the hard pipe, but you just toss it and the cap if your using the hose.

Is the valve you're looking at adding 1/2" male PT? That's what the existing braided hose would need to screw onto instead of the faucet.

[Tom M King]

I expect that what they are calling a "compression" end, which really has a rubber washer in it, is just intended to go onto an old compression type cutoff, that was originally made to be used with the hard line, and compression sleeve with the nut over it. I think you've got that part figured out. I've changed the guts on those old valves a bunch of times simply by cannibalizing a new valve, without replacing the body that is already on whatever type of water line.

[Chris Padilla]

Just get yourself a Sharkbite shut-off valve. You just push it on the tube and you're done.

Okay, it isn't quite THAT easy but there is no soldering involved. You do need the pipe clean and square but once it is, you push this on and you're really are done. The valve will spin around and you'll think it will leak like crazy...it won't. :)

[Rich Riddle]

Shark Bite makes shut-off valves that attach to lavatory faucets. A bit expensive but work like a charm. Just turn water off for a minute, cut the old valve off and slip in the new Shark Bite. If it's in a terrible spot, that's the easiest method. Here:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-1-2-in-Chrome-Plated-Brass-Push-to-Connect-x-3-8-in-O-D-Compression-Quarter-Turn-Straight-Stop-Valve-23037-0000LF/202270613

[Tom M King]

Even if you can find a valve to piggyback on the original cutoff valve, I'd still change it. If it's that old, it'll start leaking at some point.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Okay, I'm probably more confused by Tom and Ryan's last posts at this point than anything else. Also, I through out a lot of stuff that was both obviously wrong (my original understanding of the valves in question, and the nomenclature) and I'm just kind of dumb. I'm decent if you give me the parts and say "do this", but figuring it out is not my strong suit.

So let me tell you exactly what I've got now, and see if you guys can tell me the best solution. I apologize if you guys have already answered this and I'm missing it.

1/2" copper pipe comes from the wall into the cabinet. Not nice stubs or flanges or anything, it comes from the lower right corner of the cabinet, makes a couple of bends and comes up through the center of the shelf in the cabinet.

Existing shutoffs (which are not completely functional) are in-line with the pipes.

At the end of the pipes are sweated on, threaded connectors. These are 3/8".

Attached to those threaded connectors are steel braided hoses to the faucet. The hoses still have the labels on them. They say 3/8" compression x 1/2" FIP. The FIP side attaches to my faucet, the 3/8" side the threaded, sweated on connecters at the end of the 1/2" copper.

I am curious is there is a way to put a quarter-turn valve in between this threaded connector, the hose, no cutting or soldering. If I end up needing a hose with a different end, so be it.

It might just be easier to re-pack the existing shutoffs, now that I think about it.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I expect that what they are calling a "compression" end, which really has a rubber washer in it, is just intended to go onto an old compression type cutoff, that was originally made to be used with the hard line, and compression sleeve with the nut over it. I think you've got that part figured out. I've changed the guts on those old valves a bunch of times simply by cannibalizing a new valve, without replacing the body that is already on whatever type of water line.


Yep, that's it. The hose itself shows a picture of an old right angle shutoff under " 3/8" compression " (and a picture of a faucet under " 1/2" FIP ")

So when you say "hard line", you mean they used to run rigid copper all the way to the faucet?

I think part of why I was getting confused, is because the shutoffs aren't anywhere near the end of the copper.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Yeah, I used a shark-bite to fix a leaking section of pipe in an even harder to reach spot under this sink . . . the spinning around thing makes you freak out a bit.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'm realizing the real answer to this would have been to install shutoffs further down in the little space behind the shower when we had that access opened up fully in the progress of replumbing and rebuilding the shower. If only I had thought ahead!

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Sounds like Dahl makes what I was actually imagining the valve I saw at Lowes was. Here's someone using it:

http://www.familyhandyman.com/plumbing/valves/fix-a-leaky-shutoff-with-a-supply-valve-piggyback/view-all

Online on the Canadian Home Depot : http://www.homedepot.ca/product/3-8-fem-comp-x-3-8-od-comp-straight-plated-retrofit-valve/959982

My local plumbing supply house carries Dahl. Maybe worth checking out?

I think in the end, I'll just repack the original valves and see how that works, but depending on price, this might be helpful if it lets me knock out this sink over my couple days off. I think I promised this to my wife four years ago (and the replacement sink has been sitting in the closet the whole time). The tiled shower and other projects I actually have done are getting to be less of a conciliation prize. She's tired of our poor-condition old sink and the bubbled laminate. I'd really rather replace the cabinets below, but that's more than I want to tackle right now. But a replacement sink and counter I can knock out quickly, and replace the plumbing when we have the money or time to tackle new cabinets.

Thanks for all your help guys, by the way. I appreciate it.

[Mike Cutler]

Joshua

Without an actual picture of what the existing plumbing termination looks like, I have to second Chris Padilla's Sharkbite suggestion. Short of sweating on a quality valve, this is the better solution.
Shark bite makes a 1/2" copper to 3/8" compression fitting. It's a one and done. Don't worry about the Sharkbite valve body spinning. It's not going to let loose.
The Dahl's are a temporary fix.If the seats are going on your existing valves, it won't be long before mineral deposits etch their way through whatever makes up the backseat and gland stem box of the existing valve and they then leak by the stem packing.Repacking the valve is not going to fix a leaky seat issue.

I have used virtually every compression fitting currently available, and some not available for the consumer. I work with gas and hydraulic pressures up to 25,000 psi. and in my opinion the Sharkbites are a very valid long term solution. Not as good as a sweated valve/fitting, but very close. It's also a fix that can be remediated very easily down the line, if the existing piping is ever changed out.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

No, I agree it's a temporary fix. I'm actually okay with a temp fix for now, but only one that makes sense, I'm not sure this one would

I'm actually a little surprised that the existing valves only pass water when closed, and don't leak by the stem when open; part of why I'm hesitant to touch them.

If I was to go the Sharkbite route, I'd probably just sweat valves onto a new section of pipe, and cut back the old pipe to use a straight Shark Bite to join the old and new. Because of the closeness to the cabinet shelf, putting a Shark Bite valve where the threaded fittings are now is a little tight.

On the topic of stupid ideas, is there a way to cap off the existing valve body? Remove the whole stem assembly and screw something in there to make it water-tight again? I don't plan on doing this, I was just kind of curious.

[Mike Cutler]

Joshua

Those valves are actually pretty cheesy. They do what they need to do, which is to pretty much isolate the sink fixture, but beyond that they're not that reliable as an isolation valve, as you've seen. They are a low yield white metal and while there may be a soft seat/plug replacement for them, the actual seating surface is in the body and will be soft seat to plug. All of my fixtures have brass shutoffs in the basement for each leg, but under the sinks are these types of valves.

If you can post a photo it would be a help. It really sounds as if a less than professional installation was done prior to your involvement, and you are trying to remediate something that would be better off replaced from the supply lines up. If you have the skill set to sweat, this may be your best long term fix. Temporary plumbing fixes have a nasty habit of failing at the most inopportune times. ;)

[Clint Baxter]

If you have plenty of copper pipe available under the existing shutoffs, I'd recommend that you get quarter turn compression stops. 1/2" compression to 3/8" compression. As long as you have undamaged copper pipe, i.e. no dents or creases, they will seal fine. The advantage of installing them is that if one requires replacement at a later date, you can unscrew the existing valve and thread on a new one, using the existing compression nut and ferrule. If you install them, just tighten them up to the point that there is no leakage.

The master plumber that I work under has us installing them on all our new installations as well as any replacement valves we install. You may pay a little more for the 1/4 turn stops, but they're definitely worth it. As to your original idea/question, the only way you would be able to get something that would connect to your existing ends, would be to get something that would connect to your existing 3/8" compression fitting. Similar to the hose that connects your plumbing to your faucet. It would take a menagerie of fittings to be able to thread another stop in line. And if your existing valves start to leak around the packings, it would all be for naught.

If you do go the compression stops, clean the end of your pipe well before installing. A little pipe dope around the ferrule inside the compression nut is cheap insurance as well.

Good luck

BTW, those fittings you asked about from Lowes would only work if you installed a hose, or tubing, with 3/8" compression fittings on each end.

Clint

[Fred Chan]

Yes, you can get auxiliary shut offs that screw onto the old valves where the supply tubes go. Good for use when your main shutoff doesn't work. Have you tried replacing the washer in the existing shutoff? ( cheapest way)

[William Payer]

Sounds like Dahl makes what I was actually imagining the valve I saw at Lowes was. Here's someone using it:

http://www.familyhandyman.com/plumbing/valves/fix-a-leaky-shutoff-with-a-supply-valve-piggyback/view-all

Online on the Canadian Home Depot : http://www.homedepot.ca/product/3-8-fem-comp-x-3-8-od-comp-straight-plated-retrofit-valve/959982

My local plumbing supply house carries Dahl. Maybe worth checking out?

I think in the end, I'll just repack the original valves and see how that works, but depending on price, this might be helpful if it lets me knock out this sink over my couple days off. I think I promised this to my wife four years ago (and the replacement sink has been sitting in the closet the whole time). The tiled shower and other projects I actually have done are getting to be less of a conciliation prize. She's tired of our poor-condition old sink and the bubbled laminate. I'd really rather replace the cabinets below, but that's more than I want to tackle right now. But a replacement sink and counter I can knock out quickly, and replace the plumbing when we have the money or time to tackle new cabinets.

Thanks for all your help guys, by the way. I appreciate it.


I did the exact same thing as the article you referenced a few years back when I installed a new toilet and the standard toilet supply lines (braided flexible) were about 3/4 inch too short. Lowe's had a shut off that fit right on my old shutoff (piggyback) and connected to the flexible supply line. Leave the old valve fully open and use the new one for turning water off/on. Had to search the bins carefully at Lowes to find it, and there was only one left when I bought mine. Just under ten buck, but saved a lot of grief.

[roger wiegand]

It seems to me that whenever I need to change a faucet washer or some other task that involves shutting water off to a fixture the first task always involves rebuilding the shutoff valves, which in turn involves shutting the house water off, negating the value of having shutoff valves at the fixture. I've taken to replacing the traditional (cheesy) washer and packed stem type shutoff valves with good quality ball valves and have, so far, had good luck with them still working by the next time I need to use them. Can't quite bring myself to trust the sharkbite connectors (and don't want to pay for them), so I still sweat my fittings.

[Ole Anderson]

Not likely a solution for the OP, but on at least 3 kitchen remodels where the old shutoffs were either non-functional or soldered after installing the cabinets, I ended up going in the basement and installing sharkbite ball valves which allowed me to remove all of the old kitchen hot and cold water supply piping and come back later and do it right. Great thing about the sharkbite is that you can install them even with a trickle of water running, unlike sweating on a valve. They don't replace a long run of copper, but they certainly have their uses.