swappable camera/laser hollowing rig

[Wes Ramsey]

I posted this in another thread and was asked to start a new one.

Anyone ever fit their hollowing system with an endoscope camera, a la Trent Bosch's visualizer? I've been collecting parts and materials and such the last several months to build an articulating arm hollowing system. I plan to build a unit this summer where I can use the laser for the bulk of the hollowing and the camera for finishing touches so my laptop doesn't have to endure so much shop time and dust. Don't mean to hijack the thread, but was wondering if anyone else had a setup like that.

[Peter Fabricius]

I do not have a camera for my Monster. How will you keep the lens af the camera clear and is there a light with the camera?
If you ran a thin air tube alongside the camera wires could that clear the lens?
Peter F.

[Thom Sturgill]

The visualizer mounts the camera in place of the laser - not on the tool. I think the camera could feed direct to a monitor or wireless to a tablet or phone.
Something like this:
309394 (http://www.bonanza.com/listings/Wireless-Spy-Nanny-Cam-Mini-Micro-home-small-security-Camera-with-receiver-cable/156875759?gpid=76984259341&gpkwd=&goog_pla=1&gclid=CjwKEAjwxKSoBRCZ5oyy87DimEcSJADiWsvgqvMwBidw TvLB3OemQ575ZJcq663IaRiMbP5KxQ1MShoC7Jrw_wcB)

Will mount on the arm next to the laser and then you just adjust the arm to have the image of the cutting tip centered in the camera. Use a plastic sheet over the TV screen and mark the outline of the cutting tip and the depth of wall needed.

There are probably better systems, this is just what a quick google turned up. I am waiting to see what the AAW comes up with for 'best practices' for filming demos. Something like this would also work as an overhead feed for that.

[Wes Ramsey]

The visualizer mounts the camera in place of the laser - not on the tool. I think the camera could feed direct to a monitor or wireless to a tablet or phone.
Something like this:
309394 (http://www.bonanza.com/listings/Wireless-Spy-Nanny-Cam-Mini-Micro-home-small-security-Camera-with-receiver-cable/156875759?gpid=76984259341&gpkwd=&goog_pla=1&gclid=CjwKEAjwxKSoBRCZ5oyy87DimEcSJADiWsvgqvMwBidw TvLB3OemQ575ZJcq663IaRiMbP5KxQ1MShoC7Jrw_wcB)

Will mount on the arm next to the laser and then you just adjust the arm to have the image of the cutting tip centered in the camera. Use a plastic sheet over the TV screen and mark the outline of the cutting tip and the depth of wall needed.

There are probably better systems, this is just what a quick google turned up. I am waiting to see what the AAW comes up with for 'best practices' for filming demos. Something like this would also work as an overhead feed for that.

Looks like the same info I came up with. I didn't think about connecting it to a tablet. I've been wanting my wife to buy me an ipad anyway :) I could probably rig up a mount to hold them both. I don't see any need to use them both at the same time so I hadn't considered having them both mounted at the same time. I'm thinking it would be cumbersome to have both. But that's why I started the thread - to get others' ideas before I start actually building one.

[Glen Blanchard]

Wes - I have a 'Cutter Vision' from JT Turning Tools and I love the thing.

http://www.jtturningtools.com/cuttervision

[Olaf Vogel]

I've been wanting my wife to buy me an ipad anyway :)

I love my iPad and its frequently in the shop - but well away from the lathe.
At $700 is too expensive and fragile to put in harms way.

But it great for taking pics, consulting how to do stuff online, viewing user guides, playing tunes and playing Podcasts.
Most of the time its securely on a shelf, under the speakers...far from moving stuff.

For my workshop pc I use an old IBM/Lenovo S50 machine (street value ~$50-100, with windows XP) and a cheap monitor that has a plexiglass sheet over it. If I destroy it, I don't care. :) 7 years and still going.....

[Paul Gilbert]

Just my first, and uninformed, thoughts on this project. It seems to me that the hardware for the project is simple compared with the software which I think would need to be custom coded. As I understand the system, one image is superimposed upon another. I don't know of an off the shelf software package that will let you do that. My advice is to look for the software first.

[Glen Blanchard]

I think you are correct, Paul. The software 'reads' the location of the cutter and the the image of the cutter remains intact even after it the actual cutter is inserted into the vessel. That's got to represent the larger hurdle here.

[Jeffrey J Smith]

As I understand the system, one image is superimposed upon another. I don't know of an off the shelf software package that will let you do that. My advice is to look for the software first.

From what I've seen, all you really need is the camera image onscreen - no software is required if you use an overlay on the screen where you can draw on the wall thickness line around the image of the cutterhead. Essentially, you're just using the camera image and 'estimating the wall thickness as you move the cutterhead within the hollowform. You wouldn't need to see the cutterhead as you cut, just the margin showing the desired wall thickness.
I've put the gear together - just a small cheap monitor and the endoscope camera that outputs via usb. Oh yeah - and a sheet of mylar for the overlay and a dry erase marker.

[Glen Blanchard]

From what I've seen, all you really need is the camera image onscreen - no software is required if you use an overlay on the screen where you can draw on the wall thickness line around the image of the cutterhead. Essentially, you're just using the camera image and 'estimating the wall thickness as you move the cutterhead within the hollowform. You wouldn't need to see the cutterhead as you cut, just the margin showing the desired wall thickness.
I've put the gear together - just a small cheap monitor and the endoscope camera that outputs via usb. Oh yeah - and a sheet of mylar for the overlay and a dry erase marker.

Currently, there are two types of these visual aids being marketed. The unit by Trent Bosch requires no software (as I understand it). Trent accomplishes his on-screen visual reference by marking the perimeter of the cutter directly on the screen. The other type is like that sold by JT Turning Tools and requires software to drive the image. This system is Android powered. To replicate the latter, one would need to figure out the software component. I believe this would be the larger challenge. As Trent's version is 'software-less', a home-brew version would be easier to replicate.

[Wes Ramsey]

Currently, there are two types of these visual aids being marketed. The unit by Trent Bosch requires no software (as I understand it). Trent accomplishes his on-screen visual reference by marking the perimeter of the cutter directly on the screen. The other type is like that sold by JT Turning Tools and requires software to drive the image. This system is Android powered. To replicate the latter, one would need to figure out the software component. I believe this would be the larger challenge. As Trent's version is 'software-less', a home-brew version would be easier to replicate.

Right - I'm more interested in the software-less version. It shouldn't be any more difficult to build or setup than a laser hollowing rig. In my mind's eye I wouldn't trace the perimeter of the vessel since you're already looking at it with the camera anyway. I would trace the image of the tool and cutter onto the overlay - one overlay per tool. To re-use an overlay you just have to adjust the position of the overlay on the screen and/or the position of the camera to match. Since the tool and camera move together the overlay will always show where the tool is in relation to the vessel and the camera will show the outside. Now, for off-axis hollowing you could trace the perimeter so you don't cut through the wall. Of course, if you're going for a specific wall thickness you could just put a tape measure to the edge of the cutter and make a mark on the overlay.

[Thom Sturgill]

Right - I'm more interested in the software-less version. It shouldn't be any more difficult to build or setup than a laser hollowing rig. In my mind's eye I wouldn't trace the perimeter of the vessel since you're already looking at it with the camera anyway. I would trace the image of the tool and cutter onto the overlay - one overlay per tool. To re-use an overlay you just have to adjust the position of the overlay on the screen and/or the position of the camera to match. Since the tool and camera move together the overlay will always show where the tool is in relation to the vessel and the camera will show the outside. Now, for off-axis hollowing you could trace the perimeter so you don't cut through the wall. Of course, if you're going for a specific wall thickness you could just put a tape measure to the edge of the cutter and make a mark on the overlay.

Not sure this will work exactly. If the vertical distance changes the apparent size changes. So adjustments need to be in both horizontal and vertical axis. Trent uses an erasable marker so that he can just re-do the image each time.

I saw Trent demonstrate his rig at the Florida Symposium. In addition to tracing the cutter, he placed a ruler against the cutter and made a second line at a measured distance from the cutter all around the edge. This second line would line up with the outside edge of the form when you are at the right wall thickness. This is needed as the scale of the image is NOT 1:1 so you can not look at the image and say that you are at 3/16" wall thickness. Interestingly, Trent's rig is attached to a hand-held hollower and he considered it a 'training device'.

[Pat Scott]

[QUOTE=Glen Blanchard;2392466]Wes - I have a 'Cutter Vision' from JT Turning Tools and I love the thing.

Pretty sure JT Turning stole the camera idea from Trent Bosch, before Trent's patent went through. I would never buy one from JT for that reason. Trent came up with the idea and designed and developed it, then someone else steals the idea as if it were their own.

[Glen Blanchard]

Pretty sure JT Turning stole the camera idea from Trent Bosch, before Trent's patent went through. I would never buy one from JT for that reason. Trent came up with the idea and designed and developed it, then someone else steals the idea as if it were their own.

Pat - I know nothing of the development timing of Trent's device. I had a few conversations with Tom Steyer (JT Turning Tools owner) about 12 months ago and he told me he had a prototype on somethhing that had the potential of replacing the laser and that he was hoping to bring it to market soon. That was early 2014 if memory serves. Cutter Vision was introduced, and I saw it for the first time, at SWAT last year (at which time I made my purchase). That was also the first time that I saw Trent's Visualizer. I don't know when Trent began marketing it.

It is my understanding that a turner (not Tom) had (at that time) been working on the software for a couple of years and had a prototype. This tells me that he began his work perhaps in 2012 or so. At some point he partnered with Tom to bring it to market.

How that timeline matches up with Trent's development of the Visualizer, I don't know.

I should add that I have no financial interest in JT Turning Tools. I am merely a happy customer who owns many of their products.

I'll add one more thing, and I hope you will take it in the way it is meant - with all due respect. Your claim that Tom stole the idea from Trent is a fairly serious one. Do you think you should be stating such things on a public forum if you are only "pretty sure"?

[Thom Sturgill]

There is an old saying that when its time to railroad everyone railroads. I think many had the same idea about the same time.

The US patent system is about protecting ones ideas but is very flawed. They used to (and have started again) base patents on filing date rather than proof of when it was developed. This method famously led to Armstong's electronics inventions being stolen by RCA who bribed a patent clerk. The also used to require a working model and not just a proposed device with a lot of claims. What exactly does Trent's patent cover? There probably is no violation here.

[Bill Boehme]

The US patent system is about protecting ones ideas ...


Its a good of thing that Trent and Tom have so many folks looking out for them, but the bottom line is that there isn't going to be any patent litigation unless the parties involved have a lot of excess $$ lying around and are wanting to make sure that some lawyers don't have to depend on food stamps for their next meal.

If millions of $$ are at stake then it would be a different story.