Official documentation

[Graham Taylor]

Can someone please point me to some official documentation that states that laser cutting MDF, Mylar and acrylic does not emit toxic fumes and that any fumes emitted by the cutting or engraving process are not hazardous to health?

thanks

[Bert Kemp]

http://www.hooddistribution.com/msds/plumcreek_mdf_msds.pdf

Just google the msds for each thing you want to know about
(http://www.hooddistribution.com/msds/plumcreek_mdf_msds.pdf)

[Richard Rumancik]

Graham, I doubt any member or any company would be willing to do say that. I can't think of anything that is laser cut that will not emit toxic fumes. It is a matter of degree and how the toxic gases are managed, by proper use of ventilation and/or filtration systems. So generally when someone says that something can be laser cut, it means that the toxic residues can be managed satisfactorily by conventional exhaust systems and any residual gases or residue will not cause undue health issues.

There are a few material such as PVC and Teflon where it is considered that the "average" ventilation system is NOT satisfactory and that these pose an undue health risk. In some industrial situations they can be laser cut but the average shop is not equipped to do so.

People's sensitivities to chemicals differ as well so one person might be okay with cutting acrylic all day while another may have headaches.

I know this is probably not what you wanted to hear, but I don't think you will find a resource that would make such a statement you were hoping to find.

[Gary Hair]

Graham, I doubt any member or any company would be willing to do say that. I can't think of anything that is laser cut that will not emit toxic fumes. It is a matter of degree and how the toxic gases are managed, by proper use of ventilation and/or filtration systems. So generally when someone says that something can be laser cut, it means that the toxic residues can be managed satisfactorily by conventional exhaust systems and any residual gases or residue will not cause undue health issues.

There are a few material such as PVC and Teflon where it is considered that the "average" ventilation system is NOT satisfactory and that these pose an undue health risk. In some industrial situations they can be laser cut but the average shop is not equipped to do so.

People's sensitivities to chemicals differ as well so one person might be okay with cutting acrylic all day while another may have headaches.

I know this is probably not what you wanted to hear, but I don't think you will find a resource that would make such a statement you were hoping to find.

Best possible answer - ever!

[Bill George]

Can someone please point me to some official documentation that states that laser cutting MDF, Mylar and acrylic does not emit toxic fumes and that any fumes emitted by the cutting or engraving process are not hazardous to health?

thanks

Graham the MSDS sheets are about as close as your going to get. Since your in the UK and the MSDS are US OHSA required not sure if that's going to do you much good. Sounds like your dealing with someone official.

[Bill George]

http://www.hooddistribution.com/msds/plumcreek_mdf_msds.pdf

Just google the msds for each thing you want to know about
(http://www.hooddistribution.com/msds/plumcreek_mdf_msds.pdf)

Bert that was only a PDF for MDF, was there a website address instead?

[Michael Hunter]

Richard pretty well covered it!

You will not find ANY documentation suggesting that the fumes from these are safe - because they are NOT.

MDF
Emits all the nasty things from wood - Aldehydes, Organic Acids, Phenol, Creosol, Toluene, etc., etc..
Plus some extra Formaldehyde from the glue.

Mylar (PET)
Emits - Ammonia, Carbon Monoxide, Hydrogen Cyanide, Aldehydes.

Acrylic
Emits - Methyl Methacrylate (perhaps not so toxic, but a very severe irritant), Carbon Monoxide.

In addition to the toxic/noxious gasses, MDF emits particulates (soot) which is itself carcinogenic before you even work out what the particles consist of.


The quantity of material removed during engraving or cutting in the laser is very small* and with an efficient exhaust system the concentration of nasties per cubic metre of air is going to be minute. Unfortunately this won't help much if someone complains about the smells as you will not be able to quantify what and how much you have emitted.
You don't say why you need the info : if someone has already complained, then the most likely scenario is that you end up paying ££££s for an active filter system.
(If you are already dealing with the authorities, I don't think that a home-made filter like Dan's would be sufficient as they would want to see a full specification for what it will remove and its efficiency - not something you can do at home!).

* A small bonfire probably emits more fumes than a year's worth of lasering.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Graham, I doubt any member or any company would be willing to do say that. I can't think of anything that is laser cut that will not emit toxic fumes. It is a matter of degree and how the toxic gases are managed, by proper use of ventilation and/or filtration systems. So generally when someone says that something can be laser cut, it means that the toxic residues can be managed satisfactorily by conventional exhaust systems and any residual gases or residue will not cause undue health issues.

There are a few material such as PVC and Teflon where it is considered that the "average" ventilation system is NOT satisfactory and that these pose an undue health risk. In some industrial situations they can be laser cut but the average shop is not equipped to do so.

People's sensitivities to chemicals differ as well so one person might be okay with cutting acrylic all day while another may have headaches.

I know this is probably not what you wanted to hear, but I don't think you will find a resource that would make such a statement you were hoping to find.


+1 spot on response, the fumes are hazardous, how big a hazard is moot but any fumes that contain particulates will cause harm to health eventually and in *some* degree.

For the purposes of law over here, if the emissions are not breathable when liberated into the environment then you will have problems, if the facility isn't rated as *industrial* by reason of planning you will get shut down if somebody complains.

Got to say, Richards response is the best post I have read in a very long time!!

cheers

Dave

[Bert Kemp]

that was the website Iwent to

Bert that was only a PDF for MDF, was there a website address instead?

[Bill George]

that was the website Iwent to

Ok I thought it was suppose to be a website where all the MSDS info was stored for everything. You just Googled MFD. Got it.

[Graham Taylor]

The reason for my question is because we are based on an industrial estate and vent directly outside with the outlet pipe being approx 10 - 12ft from the floor. The guy next door popped round to ask what the smell was and I told him I had been cutting some mylar.

Now, you have to bear in mind that this is the manager of a place where they do car paint touch-ups, alloy wheel repairs etc. and so are using spray guns when respraying body work which we can small in our unit. He has got the hump because we asked him not to park/work on his cars on our property where the cars were blocking a fire escape route. The area between the 2 units is supposed to be shared access for both units but he seems to think that he has the god given right to block this area with and work on the cars because that is what he has always done. He got a bit upset when we actually had to ask him to move them so we could take some stuff in through the back doors we have only done this once since we moved in in Jan!! We havve asked him not to park in our area (which is not part of the shared area) but his workers have since parked there a few more time and when asked to move they do so very reluctantly. I got fed up with them taking the mick so complained to the landlord who agreed with me but I now think he is going to be a real pain in the bum and moan about everything.

I can extend the vent higher using some drain pipe or simillar so it vents even higher but I know he is only doing this to wind me up.

[Michael Hunter]

If I was running a paint shop, I would worry about burning smells - not surprised he asked.

Seems like it would be a good idea to extend (or even re-site) the exhaust before the guy has a chance to escalate the situation with any sort of formal complaint.
If you have a smell problem with the materials that you mention, then *really* smelly things like rubber, foam or leather are a no-no until you get it sorted out.

[Dan Hintz]

The reason for my question is because we are based on an industrial estate and vent directly outside with the outlet pipe being approx 10 - 12ft from the floor. The guy next door popped round to ask what the smell was and I told him I had been cutting some mylar.

Now, you have to bear in mind that this is the manager of a place where they do car paint touch-ups, alloy wheel repairs etc. and so are using spray guns when respraying body work which we can small in our unit. He has got the hump because we asked him not to park/work on his cars on our property where the cars were blocking a fire escape route. The area between the 2 units is supposed to be shared access for both units but he seems to think that he has the god given right to block this area with and work on the cars because that is what he has always done. He got a bit upset when we actually had to ask him to move them so we could take some stuff in through the back doors we have only done this once since we moved in in Jan!! We havve asked him not to park in our area (which is not part of the shared area) but his workers have since parked there a few more time and when asked to move they do so very reluctantly. I got fed up with them taking the mick so complained to the landlord who agreed with me but I now think he is going to be a real pain in the bum and moan about everything.

I can extend the vent higher using some drain pipe or similar so it vents even higher but I know he is only doing this to wind me up.
If it becomes an issue, filter your exhaust and save yourself a lot of headache. If he wanted to be a true pain, he could call the UK version of OSHA (and similar orgs) and have you shut down in a heartbeat if he can convince them you're exhausting nasty stuff into the air.

But there isn't a single thing you can place in the laser that doesn't emit some form of noxious vapor. The level of hazard will vary, but the items you first mentioned are certainly dangerous to breath directly.

[Dave Sheldrake]

If he calls the HSE (UK version of Dan's OSHA) they will rock up and red ticket the machine (Notification of prohibition of use, turn it on while it's ticketed and you face jail). Filtering may not be enough depending on what the planning is for that unit :(

I potentially faced the same problem with the metal cutters and smokey materials like MDF when I started out with lasers and ended up with a filtration unit almost as big as one of the bigger machines. If they don't get you on the emissions laws they can still get you on the clean air act. It can be fixed to a standard that will meet HSE requirements but to give you some idea my filtration system cost £16,500 a good few years ago now so figure on the same type of system kicking out at around £30k by now plus running costs :(

Unless you invite them in and ask for advice(in which case they are fantastic and will help) the HSE inspectorate are the last people you want turning up, they will go through EVERYTHING with a fine tooth comb and have zero tolerance for even tiny infractions that breech regs :(

All the annoying neighbour has to do is make one phonecall :(

[Bert Kemp]

I'm confused as to the UK laws, this guy is spray painting cars and the fumes are getting into your shop. isn't this bad for your health also. Paint fumes are very toxic and can cause all kinds of serious heath issues. Isn't he required to exhaust his paint fumes so they don't bother you. Would a Phone call from you to the right place shut him down also? Seems that you to should get together and have a heart to heart so you both can keep working.

[Dave Sheldrake]

Surprisingly paint spraying is classed as a "Service" Bert, Laser cutting is classed as "Manufacturing" different requirements and laws :(

[Scott Shepherd]

Surprisingly paint spraying is classed as a "Service" Bert, Laser cutting is classed as "Manufacturing" different requirements and laws :(


I'd shut down my laser engraving business and open up a "Photon Spraying Service" :D in the same location ;)

[Dave Sheldrake]

It really is a nightmare here Scotty, the laws cost as much to comply with as it does to set up all the machinery :(

[Scott Shepherd]

Sounds like it Dave. It's not bad enough living on an island, so everything has to be imported, but stack on top of that all those regulations and it's no wondering what happened to one the of great manufacturing powers of the world.

You're always welcome over here, think of all the money you could make without all that mess ;)

[Dave Sheldrake]

If I was 20 years younger I may have considered it :)

[Scott Shepherd]

You'll live 20 years longer here ;) Come on over..... :)

[Bert Kemp]

By the time he moves all his stuff over here the laws here will be as messed up as they are there.:( Service vs manufacturing:rolleyes:. So its ok to pollute the air with know cancer causing agents and serious other heath problems :confused:but not ok to laser stuff that puts out an odor and less harmful pollutants:eek:
You'll live 20 years longer here ;) Come on over..... :)

[Richard Rumancik]

To get back to the original post - many times when someone asks if something is safe to cut or not, they are referred to the MSDS. In my experience, the MSDS will not help you make a case to say something is safe to laser cut. There is generally a long list of toxic byproducts and chemicals that would probably scare most people from cutting anything, if it is taken at face value.

The average person would not have the experience in medicine or biology to be able to assess the risk in exposure to the chemicals resulting from cutting or marking. There are a few cases where it might be more obvious that a hazard exists (e.g. generation of cyanide gas) but even then it is still a matter of degree and concentration (often based on the volume of material cut), and also depends on the quality of the exhaust system. The MSDS will not help you much in that respect.

So my view is that although the MSDS may be useful to a point, it is rarely definitive enough for an operator to make an assessment of risk and I would generally defer to experts in the laser cutting field as to whether a material can be safely processed and what hazards and precautions may be needed. It may take quite a bit or research to get the information needed.

In this particular case I don't think it would be advantageous to refer the neighbor to the MSDS. It would be better to call a truce and resolve the situation without trying to assure the safety of the emissions, which I think would be impossible.

[Dave Sheldrake]

In this particular case I don't think it would be advantageous to refer the neighbor to the MSDS. It would be better to call a truce and resolve the situation without trying to assure the safety of the emissions, which I think would be impossible.

^^^^^^ this

[Ross Moshinsky]

It's hard to resolve problems with people who think "what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine".

My guess is the best way to handle this situation is to add some sort of filter, possibly re-route your exhaust, and then offer to cut something for his job/office. That may or may not do anything for you but it's worth a shot.