26 Gauge Wyes?

[Dan Case LR]

Most of the Wye fittings marketed toward dust collection are 24 gauge. Does anyone know of a reason why 26 gauge wouldn't work? I'm using 26 gauge snap-lock and 26-gauge elbows, so it seems like it ought to work.

Thanks!

D.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

It'll work fine I bet. I used some 26 gauge elbows with no problems. Of course, ymmv.

[Jim Andrew]

I think fine as well. The snaplock Y's I see at Ace hardware are a triangle shaped thing, is that what you find available for snaplock?

[Dan Case LR]

The wyes I'm looking at look exactly like the ones sold by a couple of popular vendors. They're made by Southwark and I'm waiting for a quote from my metal products distributor. It looks like they have a 7-7-7 and 7-7-6. Two sizes I need. I also need a couple of 7-6-6 wyes, but if the price is right I'll buy the 7-7-6's and a couple of reducers.

Southwark calls this a "smoke wye", their model #50.

D.

[Michael W. Clark]

Hi Dan,
You can also find them as "tee-on-taper", "laterals", and "tee wye". I think 26 GA will probably be fine.

Most of the metal duct we all use for home shops is actually light and designed for supply air. When you look at actual dust collection metal ducting, the fittings are often heavier gauge than the straight duct (I usually spec 2 gauges heavier). One reason (primary reason as far as I am concerned) is for longer life due to abrasion. Most abrasion will happen in the elbows and fittings. Sometimes you get it in the straight after an elbow (on the outside of a turn), but most of the time it is in the fitting. Rarely a concern for a home shop due to light use.

[mike mcilroy]

I used the HD 26 gauge 6x6x6 wyes and elbows and they work fine for me. Small shop @ 22x22 with a 3hp Grizzly. I can't imagine any abrasion issues at my use level, fairly active hobbyist up to 20 hrs a week not all of that with dust running through the system. The only issue I can see is the 45 degree is not really 45.
I wish I could have found the 7x7x6 for a decent price would have liked the 7" main. The only HVAC supplier near me wanted 2 to 3 times (depending on which fitting) the price I got at HD, probably not that big of upgrade in product.

[Dan Case LR]

I used the HD 26 gauge 6x6x6 wyes and elbows and they work fine for me. Small shop @ 22x22 with a 3hp Grizzly. I can't imagine any abrasion issues at my use level, fairly active hobbyist up to 20 hrs a week not all of that with dust running through the system. The only issue I can see is the 45 degree is not really 45.
I wish I could have found the 7x7x6 for a decent price would have liked the 7" main. The only HVAC supplier near me wanted 2 to 3 times (depending on which fitting) the price I got at HD, probably not that big of upgrade in product.


The problem with most HVAC wyes is that they're crimped backwards from what we need--designed for airflow out, not suction. We can use them that way, but those backward crimps can catch a lot if chips and cause clogs. The secret here is to look for wyes designed for venting (or "Smoke" fittings) which are crimped the way we need.

One thing I've found as I've scoured the inhabited world for the best pricing on the components I need is that the step to 7" pipe can mean an inordinate rise in cost for some fittings. One HVAC supplier I talked with told me that 7" is kind of an odd duck in HVAC systems. Lower demand always translates to higher price. I noticed while perusing online HVAC vendors that 6-6-6 and 6-6-4 wyes are much more plentiful--and less expensive--than any wye containing a 7. Pricing for HVAC elbows and straight pipe, on the other hand, are more in line, as there is more demand for those than for wyes. The demand for wyes crimped the way we want them is even lower, thus the price is higher still.

As far as quality of product, it's true that you can find reasonable quality components in the big box stores--alongside some that are pretty cheezy. The local supply house where I bought my pipe and elbows carries only one manufacturer in those components, the quality is superb, and the price was around half of the big box stores. For 26 gauge, not 30.

D.

[mike mcilroy]

Dan
The HD wyes I got were crimped the right end for DC. You have to go through a few pages on the website but they're there, only the 6" though. You're lucky the 2-3 times price from my local HVAC supplier was for the 6" 26 gauge not the 7". I think some of the issue here is they don't really like dealing with walk in business just large order contractors.

Here's the page
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-Flow-6-in-x-6-in-x-6-in-26-Gauge-Flue-Wye-26FY6X6X6/202258555?N=5yc1vZc5hq

[Dan Case LR]

Dan
The HD wyes I got were crimped the right end for DC. You have to go through a few pages on the website but they're there, only the 6" though. You're lucky the 2-3 times price from my local HVAC supplier was for the 6" 26 gauge not the 7". I think some of the issue here is they don't really like dealing with walk in business just large order contractors.

Here's the page
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-Flow-6-in-x-6-in-x-6-in-26-Gauge-Flue-Wye-26FY6X6X6/202258555?N=5yc1vZc5hq

Nice, Mike. Those are perfect. Too bad they aren't so readily available in 7".

There's a trick to doing business with a contractor's supply house. Most are willing to do cash business because there are traveling contractors who might not have an account but could be really strong buyers. It's not that they don't want your money. They don't want to waste time on guys who don't know what they're doing and/or don't know what they want. I saw an example of this at an electronic parts supplier a while back. A guy came in with a part in his hand and said "I need one of these." He didn't know what the part was or what it does, only that he needed one. It's something the supplier didn't have in stock, so the customer starts asking the counter guy stupid questions about whatever the part came from, trying to get help fixing it. The counter guy finally had to tell him that they don't do cash sales and since he isn't in the trade he had to leave. All the time this was happening, two or three of us well-paying frequent customers were standing around waiting for our turn. We found the customer a little amusing, but if I'd been in the middle of a serious crisis repair I would have been ticked off because I had to wait for him. So the first rule of doing business with a contractor/wholesale supply house is "Know what you want and know what you're doing with it."

There are some supply houses who have very prominent signs (on or outside the door, usually) that say things like "Business to Business Only" or "Licensed contractors only." In my experience, these are often larger national supply houses. Yet I know guys who have walked into those places and done business without a hitch. The signage is designed to filter out the doofi (plural of "doofus") like I mentioned above. IF you know what you're doing and know what you want, you can walk in and not have a problem. There is only one sign that is a true stopper: "NO CASH SALES." I've seen those signs at a few larger supply houses, and they have that policy because it costs them more in time and energy to process those little cash sales than they'll make.

I've also observed that some of the smaller supply houses are the easiest to work with on cash sales--they need every sale they can get. But the "know what you want and what you're doing" rule still applies. If it's a quick, clean sale they're more likely to drop down a line or two when pricing. Make them work hard enough, and you might just pay list. :)

D.

[Michael W. Clark]

I can't imagine any abrasion issues at my use level, fairly active hobbyist up to 20 hrs a week not all of that with dust running through the system.

I agree, my reference to abrasion was higher use commercial or industrial dust collection. This is why the fittings are often heavier in those applicaitons. I'm not sure why an HVAC application would need heavier fittings like Dan mentioned earlier. HVAC fittings are for clean air, low velocity, usually supply. The smaller fittings and duct we are talking about are likely mostly for residential systems. Even office HVAC systems use larger spiral duct or rectanglular duct most of the time that go to diffusers or return grills.

[Alan Bienlein]

Make your own using the template generator here http://www.harderwoods.com/pipetemplate.php .
This is how I did all of mine in my system.

[William C Rogers]

The problem with most HVAC wyes is that they're crimped backwards from what we need--designed for airflow out, not suction. We can use them that way, but those backward crimps can catch a lot if chips and cause clogs. The secret here is to look for wyes designed for venting (or "Smoke" fittings) which are crimped the way we need.

One thing I've found as I've scoured the inhabited world for the best pricing on the components I need is that the step to 7" pipe can mean an inordinate rise in cost for some fittings. One HVAC supplier I talked with told me that 7" is kind of an odd duck in HVAC systems. Lower demand always translates to higher price. I noticed while perusing online HVAC vendors that 6-6-6 and 6-6-4 wyes are much more plentiful--and less expensive--than any wye containing a 7. Pricing for HVAC elbows and straight pipe, on the other hand, are more in line, as there is more demand for those than for wyes. The demand for wyes crimped the way we want them is even lower, thus the price is higher still.

As far as quality of product, it's true that you can find reasonable quality components in the big box stores--alongside some that are pretty cheezy. The local supply house where I bought my pipe and elbows carries only one manufacturer in those components, the quality is superb, and the price was around half of the big box stores. For 26 gauge, not 30.

D.

Dan, I just flattened the crimped end, and then crimped the other end with mt hand crimpers. That way I installed them with the flow the right way.

[Jim Andrew]

First tool I bought when I was installing my piping, was a hand held crimper. Used to have the sheet metal books which showed how to lay out fittings, but my wife threw them out when we moved.

[Brian W Smith]

The more difficult the fitting,the more bennys there are,rolling your own.....$$$ wise.Heavier gauge material helps here as well......the fittings are or can be sources of strength within the system.....Think,attatchment point to wall,and also as support for blast gates.Another reason for heavier gauge is it allows easier welding,either spot,or continuous.

If you ever get the chance,look at a "beading" machine.The cheapy HF(or equivalent),should have different rollers where you can bead/flange,tip up,etc.They're about 100$.....sell it to a friend after your done with it(sell it cheap enough and he'll let you use it later,haha).

[Dan Case LR]

Just to bring a moment of closure to this thread... I decided not to buy the Southwark wyes. To start with, Southwark is (as we say in the South) mighty proud of them. I could deal with the price, as it's still quite competitive with other options, but the excessive cost to ship these things became the deal-breaker (11 wyes would have cost $75 to ship, direct to me from the factory). My local distributor was quite apologetic, but couldn't do any better.

At the bottom line, the cost of upsizing my ductwork from all 6" to 7" main with 6" drops is higher than I thought. Good 6" "Flue Wyes" are easy to find and fairly economical, but at 7" the law of supply and demand is no longer our friend. 26-gauge pipe and basic fittings are easy enough to find, but it seems that outside the dust collection world (and a fairly small corner of it at that) and a few industrial applications the demand for 7" wyes is pretty low. One of the things that pushed the price of the Southwark wyes up is that the factory doesn't stock them and they can't be ordered through the same channels as the distributor's other Southwark products, making their discounts (and therefore mine) far lower. Good ol' supply-and-demand at work.

After putting a few pencils, a pen and two Sharpies to all the numbers I'd collected, I called Oneida and talked with Anna. I was easily over the $300 threshold for free shipping, and with a little extra discount she threw in Oneida's total came in below what I would have had to pay for the Southwark option with shipping and sales tax. I added a 6" floor sweep,placed the order, and the total was nearly the same as the Southwark wyes. When you factor in the reducers I'd need for the Southwark option, I actually saved money by buying from Oneida. Oneida builds these to order with any combination of port sizes you want, so no extra reducers are needed. And they're designed and built with dust collection in mind.

The worst part about ordering from Oneida is the wait -- 5-day lead time plus about 5 days UPS time seems like an eternity when you can't do anything more until you get those wyes. The span from today to Friday (delivery day) is moving at a crawl, but it's worth the wait.

Knowing what I know today, would I have done my ductwork differently? I could have gone with all 6" duct and saved a fistful of money, but I'd still go with the 7" main and 6" drop. In the long run, it's worth it. At least it better be. :)

D.

[mike mcilroy]

Good stuff but if the 7" main is awesome don't post about it because I'm happy with 6" and was too cheap to go for the 7" or 8" that my machine is capable of.;)

[Carl Kona]

I am not sure what prices you are looking at but check out kencraftcompany they are less than the other big names and have dust collection specific pipe. Still much more than HD, but you will pay more anywhere for a long sweep 90 (2.5x) versus the $8 1X at HD. This is very important for airflow. All the crimps are in the right direction. I was looking at Penn St. originally but I think they have a flat 20% markup for shipping! I am 1 state away so shipping was very reasonable for kencraft.

[Dan Case LR]

I am not sure what prices you are looking at but check out kencraftcompany they are less than the other big names and have dust collection specific pipe. Still much more than HD, but you will pay more anywhere for a long sweep 90 (2.5x) versus the $8 1X at HD. This is very important for airflow. All the crimps are in the right direction. I was looking at Penn St. originally but I think they have a flat 20% markup for shipping! I am 1 state away so shipping was very reasonable for kencraft.

I looked at KenCraft and requested a quote including shipping for the exact quantities and wye sizes I needed (7-7-7, 7-7-6 and 7-6-6). I never received a response.

While the KenCraft numbers look good at first glance, without factoring in shipping it's impossible to fairly compare their offerings versus their competitors. They also only show the 7-7-7 as a stock item and suggest using it with reducers (which adds to the cost). They also specify 2 week lead times for other combinations.

I spent weeks digging for better options for 7" wyes. I spoke to local sheet metal fabricators and only found one tooled up for round work--and his quote made me wonder if they would be platinum plated. I found manufacturers who made what would have been an acceptable product, but who didn't have any means of distribution for orders less than a truckload, and I found HVAC distributors who looked at me like I had antlers as soon as I said "Seven inch wye." After all that digging, between free shipping, discounts and availability (5 day lead time) Oneida turned out to be the best buy for 7" wyes. In an all 6" system, that wouldn't necessarily be the case.

It's worth noting that the only ductwork components I bought from Oneida were 7" wyes and a 6" floor sweep. I bought 6" blast gates from Lee Valley and everything else from a local HVAC metal distributor. 7" snaplock pipe cost me $9.85 per 5' section, 6" snaplock was $8.46 (all 26 gauge). For elbows, I'm using an idea I had a while back: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?226176-Idea-for-InexpensiveLlong-Radius-Elbows&highlight=HVAC+Elbows . Using that method, 7" long-radius elbows cost just $6.30 each and 6" long-radius elbows cost $5.32 each. Not as slick as spiral elbows, but fully adjustable and very effective.

After all this research and digging, I'm looking forward to spending the weekend hanging ductwork--my Oneida order arrives Friday. I'm ready to wrap up this dust collector and get back to generating dust!

D.

[Carl Kona]

Dan I feel for you. I spent waaaaaaay too much time looking for ducting options. I am still on the fence about combining 90s to make a longer sweep, but may give it a try. Kencraft did take a couple of days to get back to me. Good luck and have fun this weekend!

[David Linnabary]

Thanks Carl Kona for the lead on Kencraftcompany, I'm in Ohio so this is looking like a very attractive option for me and my current build needs.

David

[mike mcilroy]

I'm looking forward to spending the weekend hanging ductwork--my Oneida order arrives Friday. I'm ready to wrap up this dust collector and get back to generating dust!

D.

Delivery on Good Friday?
You're going to love working with good dust collection. I've noticed a big improvement in the "fun" factor not having dread over certain operations knowing that IF I got through them I would be done for the day due to reaction from dust.