European Table saws

[lou sansone]

Hello fellow WW
I have been thinking about table saws recently and wanted to ask a few questions about the european table saws. Most of you are aware that I have a big monster of an american saw that is somewhat uncomfortable to use due to its size. This has gotten me thinking about replacing it in the future. My choices are either an american saw ( oliver 88, northfield #4, moak monotrol, or tannewitz u or j ) or a european saw. I know that many of you folks have felders and minimax saws, as well as format4 and maybe a martin or altendorf. So this question is for those who moved from a decent american saw to a european one. Please know in advance that I am not "begging the question" on the saw selection. I know that I can count on honest and thoughful answers from you all. BTW as you will see from the questions, I build almost exclusively 18th century american reproductions and use almost no sheet stock. thanks in advance


I have done a search on SMC and still did not come up with answers to my questions. So here goes:

1. It seems that almost all european saws are now only sliders with big outriggers for sheet stock. What is the advantage of that if I never process any sheet goods. My table saw is mainly used for ripping and much less for cross cutting. For cross cutting dimensional lumber I can use the miter slot on the TS or my pretty accurate RAS or CMS. I really don't want to give up the shop space associated with altendorf or martin sliders. But I am asking the question so my mind is open.

2. What else do european TS offer that american ones do not? Many seem to offer scoring attachments, but then again I see that only for sheet stock and not dimensional lumber. The american saws that I either have or are considering all have real riving knives as do the european saws, so that is not a reason. But there may be many other advantages that I am not aware of.

3. Is it that european saws are more comfortable to use than american ones?

4. Ok what ever else you guys or gals can come up with please send it my way

kind regards
lou

[Michael Ballent]

I believe in Europe,they mostly use sheet goods so they need an easier, more precise way of handling those. Since they would sell mostly to industry the saws are geared mostly for the industrial market. Space is at a premium as well, most people live in the equivilant of a condo, so there are not a lot hobbiest doing WW, and of those they would be using smaller tools. This is where the combo machines come into play. Although they have a small foot print, they pack a lot into a small space.

Even if you are only using lumber an outfeed table is still helpful just to support the lumber after you rip. Based on your needs, and the fact you do not use sheet goods, I think that you could get away with a TS with a strong motor for ripping thick stock and a shorter fence. Toss in an outfeed table so you can rip longer wood and you would be set. If you are looking at machines that have riving knives then you are stuck with high end machines. Martin, Altendorf, Mini Max, Laguna, but then you will have to deal with the outrigger they have. They may make one that does not have the outrigger, but I not too familiar with all that is out there.

Another machine to look at would be a SawStop. Blade stopping ablility aside, it has a number of other things built in like a narrow blade cover, can accept dado blades (some Euro machines do not accept them) and a riving knife. Sort of a hybrid of the Euro and American style machines. Not trying to start/hijack another thread about the merits of the company. :D

[Steve Jenkins]

One big advantage of the european sliders is being able to place the stock on the sliding table and move it past the blade.the sliding table is right next to the blade.

You can use the saw to edge joint your solid stock then rip it to width and glue up right off the saw. No problem with the chipout on the corners you sometimes get with a jointer.

For odd angles it's easy to clamp a fence to the slider using either a protractor or a t-bevel to set the angle. Hold your stock against the fence and cut away.

I'm not sure about Altendorf and Martin since they are pretty much industrial machines but I know that Felder makes shorter sliders, 4-5feet. So if space is a consideration and you said you don't do much panel work they might work well for you.

I have an Altendorf and would hate to lose it. It would be a big learning curve and lots of jig making to go to an American style saw.

[martyphee]

If your not using sheet stock go with the Oliver, Northfield or the Tanny. Great saws that will out last you and I. Nothing beats a couple thousand pounds of American iron with a 5hp or 7.5hp motor. Couple other notable saws would be the Rockwell 12/14 or the Yates G89.

Watch the auction sites. You could probably find a Northfield or Tanny cheap. Oliver's generally go for more because of the name. Don't rush. Unfortuantly with all the furniture factories going out of business your bound to find some really good deals. personally I'd find a Northfield with a sliding table.

Though this is the one I'm holding out for:
http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/detail.asp?id=1593

[Ian Barley]

1. It seems that almost all european saws are now only sliders with big outriggers for sheet stock. What is the advantage of that if I never process any sheet goods. My table saw is mainly used for ripping and much less for cross cutting. For cross cutting dimensional lumber I can use the miter slot on the TS or my pretty accurate RAS or CMS. I really don't want to give up the shop space associated with altendorf or martin sliders. But I am asking the question so my mind is open.

Most of the large commercial type saws are as you suggest. Many will have the "outrigger" part of the sliding table as a removable item. This leaves you with a sliding table which is about 8-10" wide and whose edge runs right alongside the blade. I have a somewhat smaller version of a saw configured exactly like this. I use it all the time to edge joint solid timber. It has the big advantage that it is quick and that I can set the amount taken off to be as wide as I want. If I need to lose an inch of the edge to lose a blemish, I can and still end up with a glue edge in a single pass. No ide if this is uefull to you but I know that it is to me.


2. What else do european TS offer that american ones do not? Many seem to offer scoring attachments, but then again I see that only for sheet stock and not dimensional lumber. The american saws that I either have or are considering all have real riving knives as do the european saws, so that is not a reason. But there may be many other advantages that I am not aware of.

We live under a more regulated system and most of the differences are gonna fall to safety at some level. Riving knife is one. The sliding table itself is an important safety consideration. All modern european saws, as supplied in Europe, are fitted with motor braking which brings the blade to rest within 10 seconds of switching off (DC Motor braking). Dust collection is probably slightly better having been designed in from the beginning rather than engineered in later. Bear in mind that some of the safety stuff may be a disadvantage to your methods of working. Dado blades have already been quoted - no current European supplied saw will take a dado blade.


3. Is it that european saws are more comfortable to use than american ones?

That depends what you are used to. My TS motor went last year and I had to use a machine with no sliding table for a week or two while I waited for a part. Scared the bejeebers out of me so that ranks as uncomfortable in my book.

I hope that this helps a little Lou.

[Dan Oelke]

I don't have any experience with any of these saws - so I can't comment.

I can add that there was a gentleman that posted a partially dis-assembled Northfield #4 a while back. That sounds like the kind of thing Lou would take on. :)

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=22307

[Jim Becker]

Dado blades have already been quoted - no current European supplied saw will take a dado blade.

Both MiniMax and Felder offer dado options on some machines; MiniMax by using a "normal" American style dado setup (you have a 5/8" arbor and they have offset the slider to accomodate it on models supporting the same) and Felder with their own special dado cutter setup. These are for the US market, however, and would not normally be seen in the EU.

[Rob Russell]

Both MiniMax and Felder offer dado options on some machines; MiniMax by using a "normal" American style dado setup (you have a 5/8" arbor and they have offset the slider to accomodate it on models supporting the same) and Felder with their own special dado cutter setup. These are for the US market, however, and would not normally be seen in the EU.

Jim,

The Felder can take a regular dado set like the Forrest Dado King, you just need to have the blades and chippers drilled to the arbor and pin pattern.

Rob

[Ian Barley]

Both MiniMax and Felder offer dado options on some machines; MiniMax by using a "normal" American style dado setup (you have a 5/8" arbor and they have offset the slider to accomodate it on models supporting the same) and Felder with their own special dado cutter setup. These are for the US market, however, and would not normally be seen in the EU.
I am sure that you are right Jim - I should have been clearer that this applied to European saws supplied in Europe. I believe that one of the reasons for the prohibition is that a large dado set is incompatible with the DC motor braking - introducing the potential for the blade to spin off under the effects of its own momentum and the retardation of the spindle. Maybe this feature has been modified to accomodate the dado feature.

[Michael Sloan]

I know that sliders have a reputation, especially amongst people that have not used them, as being primarily for sheet goods. However, while they are great for cutting up plywood, and many people purchase a slider primarily for sheet goods, sliders also offer a number of fundamental advantages for solid wood processing.

I have an MM CU300S, which I use for recreational woodworking (primarily furniture and house projects). I do almost no sheet goods processing other than for jigs and shop fixtures. While I use the outrigger quite a bit, I also use the slider regularly without the outrigger attached. My slider is on the short side (5 1/2 feet).

I sincerely hope that I never have to go back to a saw without a slider.
Frankly, I no longer feel safe actually pushing the wood past the blade.

Also, the slider is much more accurate, faster to set up, and safer for almost every cut that I do.

My recent projects using the slider include:

Cutting notches and tenons in large timbers (8 ft long 6x6's)
Cutting angled tenons in IPE
Squaring panels and glue-ups
Cutting beveled post caps
Raising large panels
ripping/edge jointing solid stock
Cutting slots for jointing boxes and cabinets
Angled cross cuts and miter cuts

Some of these I would not attempt on a regular saw (notching large timbers). Some are much easier on the slider (squaring panels and glue-ups, raising panels, beveling post caps, anything using any sort of jig). I would say that in all of these applications, the slider was easier to set up, and resulted in a more accurate result than I would have been able to achieve on a standard American cabinet saw.

Caveat -- I'm no pro. I went from a contractor saw to the slider, hence never had regular access to a high quality non-slider type of saw. I know of at least a couple long term professionals that have gone back to american style saws because they decided they did not like working with the slider.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

The Felder can take a regular dado set like the Forrest Dado King, you just need to have the blades and chippers drilled to the arbor and pin pattern.

Yes, I knew that, but forgot to mention it while stating the info about the Felder-specific solution. Sorry!! ;)

[lou sansone]

keep the comments comming. they are giving me lots to think about.

One question that I have is that I use an outfeed table / work bench for my current non slider. what do you guys do who have sliders. do you simply move the outfeed table over in line with the rest of the table saw table ?

thanks lou

[John Renzetti]

Hi Lou, I've been using a European slider since 1998. First was a Felder combo saw/shaper and now it's a Felder Kappa 40 saw. I went from a unisaw to the slider.
While I'm a big proponent of format type sliders (sliding table is right next to the blade), there is a learning curve in going from a cabinet saw to a slider.
As far as the sliders only having large heavy outriggers and 8 to even 16' sliding tables, you can get them with much shorter tables-4,5,6,7ft. I know that Martin, Felder, and Altendorf have saws with these shorter tables, and you can get them without the outrigger. So if the majority of your work is in hardwoods then there would be no need for the long table and outrigger. But you still would be able to take advantage of having a sliding table saw.
With a slider you'll find most of your cutting is done on the left side. Depending on the length of the table you can even straight line rip.
I think the Eurosliders have better dust collection, more safety features and are very ergonomically designed.
My recommendation is to go to a shop that has a slider and try it out. Make the various cuts you make now on your cabinet saw and see what feels better to you. You may just like the standard cabinet saw.
If I think of anything else that wasn't already mentioned I'll post it.
take care,
John

[Paul B. Cresti]

Lou,
Well now that you ask here is my $1.50 worth of very strong opinions. So here it goes and grab a cup of coffee while your at it :) OK background I started with a Jet contractor saw, then Unisaw, then a 8.5 ft MM S315WS and now the "apple in my eye" a 10.5ft MM Formula S35. I have had a seriuos learning curve along the way and even had a "what the hell did I do" but looking back and seeing what I can now do, it was the best thing I ever did. I will not even start on my other equipment (MM by the way :D ) As you can see by some of my past posts I feel the American style equipment and saw is simply a dinosaur. Now that Delta, Powermatic... are all gone and everything is now an import the race is now to see who can make it cheaper never mind better. The cabinet saw was invented by Rockwell in the 20's? It has not changed that much since. The Europeans invented the slider a long time ago too but it has evolved and gotten better all the time. You can even get a full CNC slider! Just check out the new SCM Vanguard! It won the best machine/saw award at the AWFS. Never mind Martin thats what I dream about! After this brief intro I will now tackle some of your questions.

"1. It seems that almost all european saws are now only sliders with big outriggers for sheet stock. What is the advantage of that if I never process any sheet goods. My table saw is mainly used for ripping and much less for cross cutting. For cross cutting dimensional lumber I can use the miter slot on the TS or my pretty accurate RAS or CMS. I really don't want to give up the shop space associated with altendorf or martin sliders. But I am asking the question so my mind is open."

First throw out that CMS or RAS cause you certainly will not need it. The only thing a SCMS is good for is installing trim especially crown. It is the only reeason I keep mine so that I have something for jobsites and to do work in my own house and not have to go back and forth to the shop. Heck it is not even in my shop anymore, it is now in the basement collecting dust! A well tuned slider and crosscut fence is more accurate then you can even imagine. It simply does not get any better for sheet goods or solid stock. You can rip with a slider, edge joint with the slider, rip with the rip fence if you want, use the rip fence as a stop, crosscut/miter with the crosscut fence on the outrigger table, miter/crosscut with the miter guage attachment. Some of these taks are more specific to my saw and setup so not all saws are created equal. Go ahead ask me my opinion :) The outrigger table to the left of the blade does come off quite easily. So you can continue to rip/edge joint without it on. I my shop I actually have more space with the outrigger off for assembly than I did with my Unisaw!!!

"2. What else do european TS offer that american ones do not? Many seem to offer scoring attachments, but then again I see that only for sheet stock and not dimensional lumber. The american saws that I either have or are considering all have real riving knives as do the european saws, so that is not a reason. But there may be many other advantages that I am not aware of."

Safety, safety, safety, accuracy, accuracy, repeatability, quality...... You can use the scoring blade on solid stock too. It will give you a super clean edge for those fuzz prone woods. The riving knives are otu of this world. Once setup they just simply will not allow kickback (maybe under some freak situation I guess so) but since you will be clamping down your stock or sometimes not when crosscutting your hands nor you will not even be near the blade or the danger zone anyway. There are times when i do still rip the old fashion way. The fence on my S35 can be adjusted high and low and position short or long, is micro adjustable and is ten times more stiff then any Beisemeyer fence period! absolutley no flex in this sucker! When I do rip I stand next to the blade, on the slider side and either move the outrigger table all the way to the end (the outrigger can be positioned anywhere along the slider with limitation only on the length of the support arm travel) and feed the stock against the rip fence with hands before and after the blade! Since I have an overarm guard I am not exposed the blade at all and I am standing on the side of the saw so completely out of the danger zone.

"3. Is it that european saws are more comfortable to use than american ones?"

Once you get used to doing things a little differently yes they are 100 times easier than a cabinet saw.

"4. Ok what ever else you guys or gals can come up with please send it my way "

Well there are many more things I can think about. I have attached some pictures for some examples the first two are of my current S35 seen with my shop made ripping jig. It allows me to clamp anything to the slider and rip it to width. The jig is simply a square piece of shop ply that I reference off of the crosscut fence, for the desired width needed, I then clamp it down to the outrigger and slider. I also clamp the stock to the slider and jig and then slide away. Now remember I have a 10.5 ft slider so think of the possibilities.

Edge joining with a slider is a breeze. Remember how long it takes to put a straight edge on a long board on a jointer? Well with the slider I first face joint on my joiner and then clamp that clean side to the slider and then slide away to a perfect 90d edge!

Have you ever tried to crosscut a mantle top of counter top before? Guess what one the slider you can crosscut not only small stock (all referenced off of the adjustable stops) but large items are just as easy. Even thoguht I am limited do to the size of my shop, I can accurately crosscut up to 8ft with my setup. The crosscut fence does go out further but like I sadi in my case it hits the wall.

Have you ever tried to crosscut, miter and rip with the same saw without changing setups? Well I can. Just check out the last picture. It is of my old saw, the S315WS, but the principles are the same.

Well I ahve more bu this should be enough for the first installment, Then we can talk about brands ;) :)

[lloyd morris]

Paul,

Thanks for the post, explaining more about your tablesaw and the excellent pictures. Regarding the shop made ripping jig won't the rip fence allow you to do the same thing, ie. rip to almost any width needed? Sorry for such a simple question.

Great looking saw by the way!

Lloyd Morris

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul,

Thanks for the post, explaining more about your tablesaw and the excellent pictures. Regarding the shop made ripping jig won't the rip fence allow you to do the same thing, ie. rip to almost any width needed? Sorry for such a simple question.

Great looking saw by the way!

Lloyd Morris

Lloyd,
Yes one can accomplish ripping with rip fence. Ripping with the slider is more accurate and safer. While ripping with the slider I am standing to the left side of the saw (Europeans call this the front, very confusing :confused: ) and all I simply do is push the slider, with the clamped down stock, past the blade. I then unclamp the stock on the opposite side of the blade and return the slider to the orginal position and clamp the next piece. The slider produces very clean cuts so clean that you could use it as a finished edge. Now since I am not standing anywhere near the blade nor am i near the danger zone of the blade just think how safe this is. By the way I have a 12" blade on my saw and it takes up to a 14" blade you should hear that blade spin but since I am not close to it I feel quite safe.

[lou sansone]

thanks paul and others who have contributed to this question.

I had a similar question as loydd did about the normal slider rip fence. It seems that it would be quicker to use it then do all that clamping with the slider. I can see that there would be a big learing curve as well. BTW in regards to a riving knife, my current american saw does have one! It was only about 4 months ago that I figured it did ( had been removed ) and boy what an eye opener on the concept of engineered saftey. One of the creekers has offered to allow me to check out his euro slider and I will do that in the fall. I also will be paying a visit to a guy who has several american heavy weights ( oliver, northfiled and tannewitz) table saws with sliders and comparing them to the european saws. One of the attractive features of the american heavy weights is that they can be purchased for a lot less than a new felder. Have any of you guys had experience with purchasing used sliders?

lou

[Paul B. Cresti]

Lou,
I use a lot of extra clamps I am kind of clamp happy. Once the clamps are set for the wood thickness you simply unclamp (lift the lever) remove the stock, insert new stock and reclamp (lower the lever). Like I said I like it becuase it is very accurate, fast and very very safe. I also rough rip on my bandsaw and final dimension stock through my planer. The learning curve is not really that bad. The worst thing for me was the idea that a clamp was holding the stock not me? now wait a second that is a good thing! :) As I mentioned before I feel the cabinet saw is an archiac machine these machines are the next evolution so it is more like an improved way to work than a complete relearn of how to work.

[Jim Becker]

Lloyd, yes you can still use the rip fence to rip "normally"...but there are advantages to using the slider as it totally takes away your HANDS from the process, resulting in a true, glue-line, jointer-quality surface, assuming you've flattened the board first. The reason is that you are mechanically fastening the board to the slider and then moving the whole thing past the blade. The jig is merely for the convenience of holding the board securely to the slider. You can do it with just the "shoe" and clamp that comes with the MM slider (and you would for long boards), for example, but Paul's jig can be more convenient for shorter stock.

[lloyd morris]

Paul,

Thanks for taking the time to explain how your sliding tablesaw works. It is very helpful for those of us who have never used or even seen a slider in person, but are trying to make a good decision about which one to buy. (I plan on visiting Sam at MM for one of his classes in September.)

Just a few more basic questions if it is not too much trouble. Doesn't the slider and cross cut function have clamps or hold down devices and stops built into the tablesaw? How do all the extra clamps help?

Your bladeguard looks very functional and heavy duty. Does it collect dust efficiently as well.

Thanks for all your knowledge and assistance.

Lloyd

[Jim Becker]

BTW in regards to a riving knife, my current american saw does have one! It was only about 4 months ago that I figured it did ( had been removed ) and boy what an eye opener on the concept of engineered saftey.

Yes, but you have a "non-typical American saw" with that big, industrial RT. It's an exceptional machine with exceptional features.

[lloyd morris]

Jim,

Thanks for your advice and thoughts as well. The concept of using european saws and combo machines takes a while to get your arms around (at least for me) but I can see a lot of advantages in terms of safety, efficiency and accuracy. This is an excellent forum! Thanks again,

Lloyd

[Jim Becker]

Yes, Lloyd, it does take some time and thought to fully understand the benefits (and corresponding challenges) around a true sliding saw. I will admit that I've not yet got there myself. I like the idea very much for many reasons, but have not yet been able to cost justify the move *for me* right now. (I also have some other more pressing financial needs, such as our adoption, a new family vehicle and a home addition...this being responsible thing is hard when it gets in the way of tool aquisition!!!)

That said, I plan on getting some time on other folks machines from time to time so that I can learn more about how it would work for the kind of things I do. It's a good way to better understand these great tools.

[Peter Gavin]

I guess I'm not clear on how a slider would be set up for repeat cuts simply. On a traditional saw, you set the fence and then rip so the cut pieces are consistently the same width and parallel. On a slider, don't you introduce error unclamping the stock, setting the width and parallelism each time? I'm completely unfamiliar with these saws so excuse me if this question is ignorant.

Peter

[Jim Becker]

Peter, you use the slider for cutting one side for your batch and then use the fence to cut all to width as you would with an "American" saw.

[Peter Gavin]

Jim,

But aren't you then negating many of the safety advantages of the slider (other than the riving knife etc) by putting yourself back in the 'line of fire' of the blade? My impression was that the people who use the slider felt safer because they were well off to the side away from the blade. If the slider can only be used for the first cut, isn't it essentially a fancy jointer? No offense meant.

Peter

[Jim Becker]

Like any tool, Peter, you have to use the technique that best accomodates what you want to do. You CAN use the slider for repeated cuts to width with boards as follows:

1) Rip one side straight and true using the slider on your boards using a hold-down jig of some sort, either native to the slider or shop-built
2) Adjust your hold-downs to accomodate the desired width of repeated cuts, indexing first off the blade, but also off the edge of the slider to insure a parallel cut. For longer boards, this setup is more critical as the length amplifies any, um...operator/measuring error.
3) Clamp your first board on the slider and make your cut. Repeat as necessary.

This does require more setup work than running them down the fence, but as you surmise, can add some safety since you're moving the machine, not the material with your hands, and well away from the blade. I would definitely do this for many repeated cuts, but might not for onesy-twosy where using the fence is just plain more efficient. Choices are good!

[Steve Jenkins]

For repeat rip cuts on my slider I use two stops. One on my crosscut fence at the head of the slider and the other is one that I can move to any point along the slider and can set the stop up to a 25" wide rip. It simply clamps to the edge of the slider and indexes off a round bar that goes the length of the slider so there is no error.
I seldom clamp the stock to the slider I just hold it against the two stops.

[Doug Jones from Oregon]

Very interesting discussion, but I'm not sure where I see the value in the not only the large amount of real estate that these sliders take up in your shop, or the benefits when ripping solid stock over a solid CS.

As for the CS not being much improved over the last 60 or so years, why when something works well does it need to be improved upon. My experience is that quality work can be done with most of the saws on the market, it is the quality of the accessories, fences, mitre gauges; and the training of the operator that makes the difference.

In my shop, I have a dedicated CS for ripping solid stock. It is set up with a 1hp power feed permanently and is quick and easy to set for different widths needed throughout the day. Certainly can't argue with the safety aspect of this setup with the power feed doing all the work, operator's hands are never anywhere close to the blade. And, with the constant feed, even the 12ft strips that I cut, come out smooth and straight. A fair portion of my product requires either dado's or rabbet's machined and I find that this system works great here also, everything comes out straight and even depth ; and I can use any number of dado sets on the market.

Give me a great, sharp blade and a properly tuned cabinet saw anyday for cutting solid stock.

I did have a sliding saw in the speaker plant, and yes, it certainly does take some retraining but we found it most useful in the cutting of cabinet type sheet goods parts for the POS portion of the business. Had a very difficult time with training operators though.

OK, just testing those friendly waters!

Doug

[Paul B. Cresti]

For repeat rip cuts on my slider I use two stops. One on my crosscut fence at the head of the slider and the other is one that I can move to any point along the slider and can set the stop up to a 25" wide rip. It simply clamps to the edge of the slider and indexes off a round bar that goes the length of the slider so there is no error.
I seldom clamp the stock to the slider I just hold it against the two stops.

Guys,
As you can see there are many ways to rip or use a slider. Steve has a very simple setup that requires no additional clamping. His method can also be used by me using my crosscut fence (set to it furthest postion) and then installing my miter guage (a very big guage that clamps to the side of my slider via the slots in its side, it also has a telescoping arm for various lengths and two stops). I could set both the main crosscut fence stop to lets say 5" and then my miter guage (set at 90d) to 5" and then use these two references as a true guage for rip width. This is assuming that both the crosscut fence and miter gauge are dialed in to perfect synchronization. This may sound complicated but it is not at all. Maybe i will post some pictures. One can also buy or make up what is called a parallel cutting jig. Some manuf's offer them and can be adapted to your saw ( a very similiar set up that Steve uses on his Altendorf).

There a couple different ways you can rip with a European saw. I will explain it in the way I do it on my saw. First you can use the "regular" rip fence. I set my outrigger/crosscut fence to its outer position or remove it completely and fold in the outrigger support arm. This allows me to stand right next the blade on the left side with only the sliding table and OH guard between me and the blade. I set the fence to the required width as needed. Note on my saw (S35) the rip fence is a beast! It can be set high or low, short or long, is micro adjustable and always remains parallel to the blade. I then feed the stock from the right side of the blade as in a "normal" cabinet saw setup but with one twist. Since I am right next to the blade and the blade is completely covered I can place my hands on the stock before the blade and after the blade!. This may not be what the manuf wants but I have total control of the board and since it will not move towards the blade in addition to the riving knife it will not kick back ever. I have an entire OH guard assembly between me and the blade so I can not physically touch the blade even if I wanted to. I still remain extremely cautious though. I usually use this method for a quick rip on long stock.

Second method is to use the ripping jig I have. Since I am referencing of a preset distance I get perfect repeatability. I am only clamping and unclamping and pushing the slider forward and backwards. I am entirely away from the blade and never near any danger! it is a completely "automated" process. Using the slider to rip (assuming the board is face jointed and the intial edge is edge jointed 90d to this face) I could continue to rip my stock with out ever going back and forth to my joiner to clean the edge. The slider is in a fixed range of motion and does not vary at all. The only thing to consider is the wood doing something funny as internal tensions are released as it is being ripped, but then if the board is clamped down it will not move and since the range of motion of the slider is fixed.... I have been using this method for ripping on short stock and for beveling. On the picture I posted I used that jig in order to put a 31d bevel on (4) 7'-0" long cherry stock, about 3" thick, that I was making some custom cove molding.

Edge joining/ripping can be done very quickly. Once one face is face jointed in can be layed down on the sliding table (you do not need the outrigger on for this) and I can use the "ripping shoe" at one edge and a clamp at the other end of the board. I then push the slider and get a perfect 90d edge without any effort at all. The "ripping shoe" is nothing more than a piece of metal than is clamped in the miter slot on the slider and acts like a hold down. I actually use two clamps because i like them better.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Very interesting discussion, but I'm not sure where I see the value in the not only the large amount of real estate that these sliders take up in your shop, or the benefits when ripping solid stock over a solid CS.

As for the CS not being much improved over the last 60 or so years, why when something works well does it need to be improved upon. My experience is that quality work can be done with most of the saws on the market, it is the quality of the accessories, fences, mitre gauges; and the training of the operator that makes the difference.

In my shop, I have a dedicated CS for ripping solid stock. It is set up with a 1hp power feed permanently and is quick and easy to set for different widths needed throughout the day. Certainly can't argue with the safety aspect of this setup with the power feed doing all the work, operator's hands are never anywhere close to the blade. And, with the constant feed, even the 12ft strips that I cut, come out smooth and straight. A fair portion of my product requires either dado's or rabbet's machined and I find that this system works great here also, everything comes out straight and even depth ; and I can use any number of dado sets on the market.

Give me a great, sharp blade and a properly tuned cabinet saw anyday for cutting solid stock.

I did have a sliding saw in the speaker plant, and yes, it certainly does take some retraining but we found it most useful in the cutting of cabinet type sheet goods parts for the POS portion of the business. Had a very difficult time with training operators though.

OK, just testing those friendly waters!

Doug

Doug,
Ah you hit the nail on the head! you did add to your saw you added a power feeder so it is not the same saw. I will go further and say you could even get a rip saw and have a dedicated ripping machine. It does exactly what we are talking about, remove the operator from the area of danger and provide perfect repeatability. My point was the cabinet saw has not changed at all since inception. It is a fence with a blade and that is it. I believe the European saws are the evolution of this saw, better in every aspect from the get go. The only "real learning curve notion" I see is the idea of standing to the left of the blade instead of behind it but this is very good thing. Aren't we all taught to stand to the side of the blade anyway? This is going to be a hard sell for the entire American market to embrace quickly. These saws cost more period and we here are very cost conscious and relunctant to change. The CS is an industry "standard" and some time old habits are just hard to die, whether they are good or not

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul,

Thanks for taking the time to explain how your sliding tablesaw works. It is very helpful for those of us who have never used or even seen a slider in person, but are trying to make a good decision about which one to buy. (I plan on visiting Sam at MM for one of his classes in September.)

Just a few more basic questions if it is not too much trouble. Doesn't the slider and cross cut function have clamps or hold down devices and stops built into the tablesaw? How do all the extra clamps help?

Your bladeguard looks very functional and heavy duty. Does it collect dust efficiently as well.

Thanks for all your knowledge and assistance.

Lloyd

Lloyd,
Thanks for all my knowledge? Now there is a funny one!

The clamps, called eccentric clamps, slide the slot along the entire lenght of the slider. I have extra clamps cause I am clamp happy and very cautious. I also use the ame clamps on my shaper and its sliding table when I do tenoning. Now that I have a 10.5ft slider I generally keep one clamp at one end and another at the other.

The blade guard is huge. It does provide dc hookup and has two different covers. One is for the blade at 90d he other is wider and allows the blade to tilt. My problem with dc is my current collector does not provide enough CFM for two ports of the size I need open at the same time (the cabinet has a 5" port and the guard has a 4" opening). I have ordered the Felder RL 160 which will fit my space nicely and as I have been told has suction and filtration galore

[Doug Jones from Oregon]

Paul, you're technicaly right, my "ripping saw" is not the same saw with the adding of a power feed, but when you figure a decent CS and Power Feed is only about $2500, I can buy a lot of material for the price difference between it and a European slider. And, I don't have the learning curve for employees.

Yes, I would love to have a multi-rip saw, miss the one we had in the other shop.

Doug

[lou sansone]

thanks for all the good comments and advise.


One other question that has not been answered is with a traditional table saw you push the finished stock to a outfeed table and there it sits. what do you do with a slider. do you have an out feed table and / or another "side table" to put your parts on?

thanks lou

[Paul B. Cresti]

thanks for all the good comments and advise.


One other question that has not been answered is with a traditional table saw you push the finished stock to a outfeed table and there it sits. what do you do with a slider. do you have an out feed table and / or another "side table" to put your parts on?

thanks lou

Lou,
Yes my saw has a outfeed table. It is not very big and not needed very much except to keep long rips from falling off. I actually rarely use my "side board table" (which is actually steel) fo ripping purposes for the rip fence. I have used the rip fence as a stop though for pieces I need to crosscut the other way, otherwise my side board is nothing more than one huge storage table for milled parts. I would not change a thing. As Jim B. pointed out I have a lot of choices in attacking a problem.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul, you're technicaly right, my "ripping saw" is not the same saw with the adding of a power feed, but when you figure a decent CS and Power Feed is only about $2500, I can buy a lot of material for the price difference between it and a European slider. And, I don't have the learning curve for employees.

Yes, I would love to have a multi-rip saw, miss the one we had in the other shop.

Doug

Doug,
you are correct also as they ain't cheap, no if ands or buts. The saw in my case was a business purchase and it has allowed me to do many things safer, quicker and more accurately. I do feel when these saws gain more exposure here in the USA and maybe come down in price in some of the more "economical models" the CS is dead in the water. It can take the place of a vertical panel saw, SCMS, CS and RAS all in one very accurate machine. If you add a router to the outfeed table (or make a special router table to fit) you now also have one serious dadoing setup also. This I will be adding shortly.
If you go with a CNC set up slider you can now have memory presets for specific parts, saw blade heights, bar coding capabilities for parts...... a CS is left standing in the dust.
What I do find kind of ironic is that one of the most accident prone machines in the shop and simply the most dangerous is the CS and what is one of the first machines the beginer buys? The CS or contractor saw. I sure remember the first time cutting on a CS. I was thinking, "wait a second I do not want hands near that blade and now I have to push a piece of wood into it?" Now that my skills have increased and I am a pro my hands are not even close to the blade anymore. Is it a case of investing more money or a case of valuing my fingers/hands over my wallet? Its a tough decision to drop this kind of dough but I do not regret it at all. I am an Architect as well and I really need my fingers!

[John Renzetti]

hi Lou, Depends on what you are cutting and the size of the slider. If it is a full sheet of veneer ply then the workpiece would stay on the slider supported normally by the outrigger. The offcut can normally remain on the cast table and extension tables, but you may need an outfeed support, which could be an extension table that attaches to the outfeed side of the saw or a portable support. If you are crosscutting boards or smaller workpieces with the slider then the offcuts would remain on the cast table and other steel extension table.
To me ripping a rough edge or an edge with bark is nice on the slider. However you can still do the same thing with a bandsaw. However if you have to rip a lot of boards down to a rough dimension, I'm not convinced that using the slider is the fastest way to go. Here I believe is where the old standard American style cabinet saw excels. I've been to a number of professional shops that had some really nice expensive sliders, some with CNC rip fences. All of them had an older PM66 or Unisaw still in use for ripping rough boards. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the sliding table must be set above the cast iron table. This can be from .004" to .015" depending on user preference and the overall use of the slider. Shops that cut panels all day will have the slider set higher. When ripping a board from the rip fence side the workpiece will ride up slightly on the slider so you won't get an absolutely square cut of the edge with the face. I've worked around this in a couple of ways, one by running the board on edge through the planer.
While I am a big proponent of the sliding table saw and feel that it's advantages far outweigh the disadvantages, I think the things I pointed out are important for you in deciding whether to make this purchase. In one of these many messages there was a comment that a particular rip fence was 100 times more rigid than the Beisemeyer. Any European rip fence extrusion and this includes those on the Martin and Altendorf, when put in the same full forward position as the Beisemeyer, will flex under lateral pressure. And if you are using that much lateral force I consider this bad technique. The best place to place the rip fence is just beyond the blade. I like this method and feel it gives a better cut. And in this position the fence is very rigid especially when backed up by a large fence casting.
I'll send you that info I have on the various cutting techniques on the slider, later this evening.
take care,
John

[Doug Jones from Oregon]

Doug,
you are correct also as they ain't cheap, no if ands or buts. The saw in my case was a business purchase and it has allowed me to do many things safer, quicker and more accurately. I do feel when these saws gain more exposure here in the USA and maybe come down in price in some of the more "economical models" the CS is dead in the water. It can take the place of a vertical panel saw, SCMS, CS and RAS all in one very accurate machine. If you add a router to the outfeed table (or make a special router table to fit) you now also have one serious dadoing setup also. This I will be adding shortly.
If you go with a CNC set up slider you can now have memory presets for specific parts, saw blade heights, bar coding capabilities for parts...... a CS is left standing in the dust.
What I do find kind of ironic is that one of the most accident prone machines in the shop and simply the most dangerous is the CS and what is one of the first machines the beginer buys? The CS or contractor saw. I sure remember the first time cutting on a CS. I was thinking, "wait a second I do not want hands near that blade and now I have to push a piece of wood into it?" Now that my skills have increased and I am a pro my hands are not even close to the blade anymore. Is it a case of investing more money or a case of valuing my fingers/hands over my wallet? Its a tough decision to drop this kind of dough but I do not regret it at all. I am an Architect as well and I really need my fingers!

Paul, I certainly agree with the need to retain our fingers. Funny, all of my shop accidents have come from hand held power drills...hate bits that break!

I suppose it all comes down to what your needs and usage are. I will continue to use my CS's.

If and when I come to a point of machining any quantity of sheet goods, I will look much more seriously at a cnc router. The capability of not only precision cuts, but also secondary operations such as drilling holes would out step the usefullness of a sliding table saw. And the money spend on a large European slider would go along way in paying for a tool changing beast.

I too am able to justify and write off all of my equipment as a business expense, but I still have a responsiblilty to my family to invest that money on the equipment that will give me the most bang for the buck.

Doug

[Paul B. Cresti]

I too am able to justify and write off all of my equipment as a business expense, but I still have a responsiblilty to my family to invest that money on the equipment that will give me the most bang for the buck.

Doug

Doug,
That is the best answer I have heard yet. Custom woodworking is a very expensive business, involves alot of time but does not necessarily equate to a decent living all the time. Ultimately my family is my "boss" and if they require me to sell everything I would without even blinking and eye.

[Roy Wall]

Hey fellas.....

Pardon my ignorance.......but isn't a CC Sled for "American style Cabinet Saw" basically a sliding table?? Albeit dedicated to CC only......it still slides...keeps hands away from blade.....you can put a Lexan blade cover over it...... make it wide to handle long stock....etc...

and secondly..

Paul C.

- you said "I believe the European saws are the evolution of this saw, better in every aspect from the get go. The only "real learning curve notion" I see is the idea of standing to the left of the blade instead of behind it but this is very good thing. Aren't we all taught to stand to the side of the blade anyway? This is going to be a hard sell for the entire American market to ...."
Who does stand behind or to right of blade when ripping......that's the kickback zone???

Sorry - I'm easily confused:confused: :confused:

[Paul B. Cresti]

Hey fellas.....

Pardon my ignorance.......but isn't a CC Sled for "American style Cabinet Saw" basically a sliding table?? Albeit dedicated to CC only......it still slides...keeps hands away from blade.....you can put a Lexan blade cover over it...... make it wide to handle long stock....etc...

and secondly..

Paul C.

- you said "I believe the European saws are the evolution of this saw, better in every aspect from the get go. The only "real learning curve notion" I see is the idea of standing to the left of the blade instead of behind it but this is very good thing. Aren't we all taught to stand to the side of the blade anyway? This is going to be a hard sell for the entire American market to ...."
Who does stand behind or to right of blade when ripping......that's the kickback zone???

Sorry - I'm easily confused:confused: :confused:

Hey how did I become the spokesman for the European slider??:D ;) Do I get royalties now from all companies??

Roy,
yes the CC is sort of a slider but there are many buts here. The European format slider puts the silder right to the immediate left of the blade and scoring unit. The slider is always there, It is not limited to the size of the crosscut sled or does not need to come off and on. A slider crosscut fence can also be used at angles, has stops, ...... (many mant features that are best seen in person).

If you rip with a CS and rip fence you stand behind the blade. You must position yourself to the side as you push the stock thru the blade. The European slider (or at least most lsider only set ups even though many are not this way also) you can not stand behind the blade. The standard operator position is to the left side of the blade, where the slider is ans most all the saws controls are there too.

[Ian Barley]

Hey how did I become the spokesman for the European slider??
Paul - if you didn't want the gig you shouldn't do the job so well.

[Roy Wall]

Paul -

You are a good spokesperson:) :cool:

I'm always standing to the left of the blade as I start and follow thru with rip cuts...but I could see long stock requireing more "directly behind" to start...

In bizarre thinking......I've often wondered if one should rip standing to the RIGHT of the Fence ( on American TS) so that they are totally out of harms way...but then there is the issue of holding stock tight to the fence thru the cut, yada, yada, yada...

If you accessorize (sp) a Cabinet saw with sliding table, riving knife, and blade cover...aren't you getting close to the Euro theory.........??

[Jim Becker]

If you accessorize (sp) a Cabinet saw with sliding table, riving knife, and blade cover...aren't you getting close to the Euro theory.........??

There is a big difference between accessorization/retrofitting and having things designed that way from the beginning. Take the slider. Yes, you can add on to a cabinet saw, but the closest the edge of the slider is going to get to the blade is measured in several inches and you're not going to get the heft and capacity, either. With the Euro slider, it's "right there" at the blade. The riving knife is incorporated into the saw design...not something you can retrofit an existing saw/arbor/trunion design with. Sawstop has the feature, but they redesigned things entirely to make it work. The only "easy" retrofit is the overarm blade guard!!

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul -

You are a good spokesperson:) :cool:

I'm always standing to the left of the blade as I start and follow thru with rip cuts...but I could see long stock requireing more "directly behind" to start...

In bizarre thinking......I've often wondered if one should rip standing to the RIGHT of the Fence ( on American TS) so that they are totally out of harms way...but then there is the issue of holding stock tight to the fence thru the cut, yada, yada, yada...

If you accessorize (sp) a Cabinet saw with sliding table, riving knife, and blade cover...aren't you getting close to the Euro theory.........??

You and Ian sure do give me a lot of credit! I am sure there are people somewhere that cringe everytime I submit a post:eek:

With the add ons to a CS you get somewhat slightly close but not quite. Remember the ES (I am sick and tired of typing the whole thing) is design with everything on it form the get go. It is very elegantly designed and works without any hickups. The add-ons for the CS are kind of clunky at best. The best I can say is you should take a look at one in order to grasp the full potential of one. Still to this day I learn more ways of using it. I would never go back to a CS and once you use a ES I think you would feel the same.

One does not need to get ES soley. One could buy a full combo machine and still get all these great features plus the jointer, planer, shaper and mortiser all in one! Do you lose some of the ease of single machines yes but then if you compare costs of what you get with a full combo to a separates of equal capicity/quality the combo will win out. You just have to get past the idea of dropping 10-20k all at once instead over time.

[Dev Emch]

Hi Lou....

I know most of this is a repeat but it puts my 5 cents on the record.

First of all, I see the world through two portals. Hardwood Saws and Panel Saws. The smaller table saw such as the unisaw or powermatic 66 was always a compromise saw and many unisaws were lugged into construction sites for finish work and built ins. Dont get me wrong, the unisaw is for what it is a mighty fine machine.

But when you get into large industrial saws, things change. As these machines cost lots of money new, it is usually industry with special needs that are driving the market and design. Pattern shops for example were always fond of hardwood saws and had little use for sheet good cutters. The same can be said about fine furniture companies. At that time, the big names were oliver, northfield, yates, tannewitz, etc. The base machines were all hardwood saws. Even the older european companies made the hardwood saw footprint. For example, the martin T-17.

Now some companies did have a need to cut large precise panels. So the companies added on sliding tables. And these were huge! Major structual iron sub-bases with cast iron tables weighing a few hundred pounds. The classic example here is the oliver 88-DX or 88-DY which is not to be confused with an 88-D or 88-Slider. Northfield also made one like this.

These large saws are awkward to use because lots of structure is actually in the way. How does one stand in front of such a saw? You have lots of stuff on your left side and it makes it hard to lean over where the blade is. Also, cutting smaller mitre like items is more difficult as well. Your moving a huge hunk of iron to snitzle a tiny stick with a cross cut or mitre cut.

So then one sees the next form of sliding table. I call these "Hardwood Sliders". Here again, the table is much smaller and integrated into the top of the saw. The left side of the slider comes right up against the left side of the blade. There is no blade insert. When you add a dado stack, you crank a knob which moves the sliding portion of the top to the left to make room for the blade.

My oliver 88 is like this. Personally, I am not that happy with it. I tend to perfer to use a wooden insert for obvious reasons. Right now, I need to slip a board into place the length of the saw and clamp it using the knob that moves the sliding table. That way, I have a full length wooden insert and can have my zero insert dado blade. For regular blades, the saw works just fine. You also find that a hardwood slider is a bit prone to throwing up dust so good DC is highly desireable with this type of saw.

Now all the hardwood saws of which every one had a rolling top option can also be found with no sliding top. In this case, they all have standard inserts and this works just fine.

Keep in mind that most of the hardwood saws mentioned such as oliver, northfield, tannewitz, etc. are all direct drive saws. That is, there are only two bearings and they are in the motor and the blade attaches directly to the motor. Thus, your saw spindle speed is set at about 3450 RPM. The european saws use discrete motors with belt drive. My martin T-17 has three different speeds. I have yet to change the speed on my martin which shows you how useful this feature is.

As the european makers attained dominance and the US makers died out one by one, the overall design was being driven by a new market demographic. High production sheet goods. And items such as kitchen cabinets and book shelves all have sides with high aspect ratios. This in turn changed the design of the slider. Now the slider is very narrow and very very long. The outrigger was a good idea to stablize large goods such as 4x8 sheets and to improve the working area around the slider.

You also began to see the use of cheaper linear bearings. The tables also picked up more light weight materials such as plastic and aluminum. This helps them to move and stop faster. Is this a better table? I really can not answer that.

But the most important aspect of sliding table table saws really has not been talked about at length. I have found that most sliding table table saws leave quite a bit to be desired when it comes to cutting precision angles. There are all sorts of schemes out there to aide you in setting up a precision angle cut and most are no more accurate than say 1 or 2 degrees. Not close enough for such an expensive machine.

The hardwood sliding versions of the hardwood saws such as the oliver 88, the northfield #4 and the tanny did solve this problem. Because these saws were used by top end pattern makers, the need to perform precise cuts was mandatory. Often, patterns were made by cutting numerous pie slice shaped segments and assembled. Large pulleys and flywheels are examples of such patterns. Most of this was done using a quadrant gage which pins to the table and relies on markings on the table. In certain extreme cases, a segment gage was also used although finding segment gages today is next to impossible.

So as cool as modern sliding table saws are, you need to check how your particular model does complex angles. My martin T-17 has a sliding table and it works pretty good.... as long as your not making cuts that are neither 0 degrees nor 90 degrees! For everything but 0 and 90 degrees, I have to resort to the oliver 88. The new martin is supposed to have some new parallogram to make these cuts easy. I have not yet been able to put this feature to the test. That will have to wait until the summer season is over.

The scoring option is not one that I have found that useful. For sheet goods, I use a sharp plywood blade by forrest (duraline) and tape the kerf line on the side that goes down on the table. This solution usually provides zero blow out for me on sheet goods including baltic birch and melamine MDF. If I were cutting a semi load of sheet goods per day, I would have no choice than to use the scoring blade. My martin T-17 came with one and it was not working when I got it. I have yet to find the time to fix it. If it were that useful, I would have fixed it by now. And if you cut mostly hardwood, you will not miss it at all.

After all my research and test drives, etc., I personally find the oliver 88 to be the king of large format table saws. If I had to do it again, I would hunt down an oliver 88 with a standard top and attach a european sliding table from say robland, panhans or hofmann. These can articulate into place and fold out of the way when not needed thus saving space. These also have pretty good mitre setups on them making precise cross cuts much easier. The cat's meow would be the hofmann sliding table used on the hofmann shapers. See the photos of the shaper I posted a while back. Attach that sliding table to an oliver 88 and you would have a very trick setup. Just my 5 cents worth.

[Lee DeRaud]

We're 40-odd posts into this thread, and for me, it boils down to: read post, go out into garage and look at BT3000, come back inside, repeat as needed. I'm having trouble reconciling myself to the fact that this discussion, while intensely fascinating, has about as much to do with what I do in the shop as a discussion of Tiger Woods' clubs has to do with what I do on the golf course.

If you need me for anything, I'll be over in the corner, eyes closed, whimpering quietly.:eek:

[Paul B. Cresti]

Dev,
as usual your knowledge of machines amazes me along with your ability to convey your message via the written word. Since i have now become the "unofficial spokesman for myself" :confused: oh wait a second myabe that was the ES?
( Roy, Ian a little help please) i have to disagree on the angle thing. My S35 has angle setups for the crosscut fence and has a separate miter guage. I have used both and they certaimly are accurate for me once they are dialed in. Felder goes about a little differently with small crosscut fence in having the angle markings on the slider itself. They also have a new miter index for their outrigger table. If you want the ultimate check out the new SCM Vanguard. the outrigger angle is digital and turns on its own turn table, Martin of course has similiar setup but their table "deforms" to the angle not turn. I think these saws are very versatle they can do both solid and panel stock with neither being subservient to the other. While you definately know more about the history of machines I am simple coming from " i haved used both and I hands down prefer my S35 over and CS"

[Paul B. Cresti]

We're 40-odd posts into this thread, and for me, it boils down to: read post, go out into garage and look at BT3000, come back inside, repeat as needed. I'm having trouble reconciling myself to the fact that this discussion, while intensely fascinating, has about as much to do with what I do in the shop as a discussion of Tiger Woods' clubs has to do with what I do on the golf course.

If you need me for anything, I'll be over in the corner, eyes closed, whimpering quietly.:eek:

Lee,
someone asked a question and i answered it. I have my own opinions, as we all do (some of us stronger than others). You cut your way and I do it my way neither one of us are wrong. Lets all remember that we really do not need all of this stuff we have anyway. Just look at what they used to do in the 1700-1800's

[lou sansone]

Dear all

I appreciate the responses and I think that the discussion has been very informative. I think that if I had the room then a 10' euro slider would be real nice.

Does anyone have a laguna table saw with the slider ? Although I probably would not buy it, it does seem like a modern attempt to replicate the oliver or northfield sliders of years past. Dev provided a great explanation and pretty balanced. I respect paul and others who make there living at this and take their advise seriously.

lou

[Dev Emch]

Paul..

Glad to see that some of the issues on angle cutting is getting dealt with. The SCM digital solution you spoke of sounds very interesting and I will need to check it out. It would be very nice if I could retro fit the T-17 with a better solution than the one it came with. The T-17 is an excellent saw and very much competative today. That is why you dont see many used ones.

My first love is hardwood projects similar to the things Lou makes. That is why I had focused on hardwood style or traditional table saws.

But 90 percent of what I do now is cabinetwork, high end kitchens and architectual woodwork such as doors and some windows. As the quanity of panel work increased, I did have to change my ways and that is why I ordered a martin T-73. I can use it for doing hardwood cutting but its cabinet work that drives this choice and more so, the european or modern faceless cabinets that i have been working on.

The modern cabinet work is sometimes strange. Virtually all of it is sheet goods with no real detail. Very George Jettison like. In fact, I am shortly going to take a class on making concrete counter tops. Yes, concrete! A year ago I would have told you your smoking something but there is a new consumer demand for this stuff and some of it actually looks interesting as an alternative to more traditional tops.

So its interesting to see how things change.

[Dev Emch]

Paul...

Actually, they did have sliding table saws with really long sliding tables during the 1800s. I forgot about those!

I did see some shaker table saws that had long sliding tables. Made mostly from wood however.

So maybe the europeans are copying the old designs of the shakers and improving on them. That would be cool as well.

I am always impressed by the shakers. After all this time, they continue to have such a handhold on influencing us.

[Lee DeRaud]

In fact, I am shortly going to take a class on making concrete counter tops. Yes, concrete! A year ago I would have told you your smoking something but there is a new consumer demand for this stuff and some of it actually looks interesting as an alternative to more traditional tops.They used that on a This Old House project maybe 6-7 years back (the New Mexico adobe maybe?). With the colorant added to the mix, some very fussy finish trowelling, and a couple coats of sealer, they ended up with roughly the look of soapstone but harder (and presumably cheaper).

[Paul B. Cresti]

Paul...

Actually, they did have sliding table saws with really long sliding tables during the 1800s. I forgot about those!

I did see some shaker table saws that had long sliding tables. Made mostly from wood however.

So maybe the europeans are copying the old designs of the shakers and improving on them. That would be cool as well.

I am always impressed by the shakers. After all this time, they continue to have such a handhold on influencing us.

Dev,
Since the Shakers did not have access to sheetgoods then I would take a wild guess that they only use solid stock thus hither to ipso facto my point..... the European slider (which was influenced by the Shakers who came from Europe to America and then influenced the same Europeans the once came from) works for solid stock just as well as sheetgoods.:)

I do not have the knowledge you have (or Lou for that matter) of old iron but I know one thing first hand; I came from a contractor saw to a Unisaw to now my MM slider and it is not until now that I "feel" very safe all the time and get accurate results, easily, on anything I throw at this saw. I still am very cautious as not to "fall asleep at the wheel" so to speak but I am never near the danger zone anymore. I can only hope that as the ES gets more exposure over here that some more economical models are introduced and/or woodworkers begin to see the beauty, safety and value of these machines.

[Paul Canaris]

Just got my new slider a few months ago. It's taken me (and still is) some adjusting to using when ripping, although I am getting good results. My journey over a 27 year period involved a Sears TS, Rockwell TS, General TS (best of the TS), Robland LX-31 sliding table to a Knapp 10' Slider. I would not go back to a TS willingly, and this is after just three months of limited usage of the Knapp. My work is a split between solid stock and sheet goods and this allows me to do both with a degree of ease. From Paul C.