powermatic/houdaille?

[Martin Wasner]

A 5hp shaper popped up on craigslist the other day. Anybody have experience with these? Quality piece of equipment, or not?

[Kevin Jenness]

A popular machine for relatively light use (cabinet door scale). Have a look at the current thread entitled "shaper"- the Powermatic build is compared to various heavier machines within a larger discussion.

[David Kumm]

You might want to check with the owwm.org guys. The houdaille period was not the high point of PM history. Some machines didn't change, others did. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

Is this an SAC under the houdaille label? Or a USA made PM 27? The SAC's with the houdaille label were built like the three little pigs third outhouse, the PM27's were PM'27's. Ive used a few pieces of the Houdaille era PM badged italian stuff, not high tech but solid and accurate. They made a few different models, 70's and 90's IIR? I'm talking quill assembly like a dump truck. Never seen one with a 5HP motor though....I'm thinking they started at 7.5HP? Pics?

[Martin Wasner]

I don't know much about these, like nothing. Never seen one, or used one. It's definitely not a model 27. Here's the listing (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/4925772548.html) on the machine. Looks like it's stout, but I don't know.

Long term I've no use for the sliding table, and likely not the cutters either, but maybe.

I've got two 27's. One is a 27S, used pretty heavily for virtually everything, I do all my sticking on it, both the profile and sizing. Sizing for face frame material, and panel raising. The other is a dedicated coper. I'd use this one for strictly panel raising I think.

[cody michael]

this has nothing to do with shaper but when I see houdaille all I can think of is the old robin hood with the animals. does any else remember I am not sure how it would be spelled but houdaille comes close

[Peter Kelly]

The shaper in the ad is one of the Italian-made ones from Sueri that Peter Quinn described above. Looks clean. For $1,500 I'd jump on it.

[Peter Quinn]

I don't know much about these, like nothing. Never seen one, or used one. It's definitely not a model 27. Here's the listing (http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/tls/4925772548.html) on the machine. Looks like it's stout, but I don't know.

Long term I've no use for the sliding table, and likely not the cutters either, but maybe.

I've got two 27's. One is a 27S, used pretty heavily for virtually everything, I do all my sticking on it, both the profile and sizing. Sizing for face frame material, and panel raising. The other is a dedicated coper. I'd use this one for strictly panel raising I think.


That is an SAC with the powermatic brand, I used one for years, two actually, that size and the big brother. That one is more the equivalent of an SCMI T110 or almost T120, much more robust than a PM 27, hoods were decent if true, though the backs were open, you have to make a plywood hood to go inside for chip collection, listing indicates the owner has done that. Worth a look if you want to get into an older Italian production machine. The ones I used were the old gold color that came just after the green.

[David Kumm]

SAC made good stuff. i agree it is worth a look. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

I might have waited to long to contact the guy. He's got somebody coming this afternoon to look at it. If it's still available, and in decent shape I'll likely snap it up. Though I have no idea where I'm going to put it, or find the juice to run it.

If you ever put up a building, don't bother running 208v, you run out of amperage way too quickly.

[Larry Edgerton]

Ya, I'm on my way over to pick it up tomorrow, thanks for the heads up!

Larry



Just screw'in wit ya......:D If you don't snag that at that price you are crazy. Sell off all the stuff you don't want and it's almost free.

[Martin Wasner]

Yep... I think I was too late. He said he'd get back to me, and hasn't. So I'm guessing it sold. Who knows, I might hear from him yet, and if not, something else will come up. I need to be quicker on my decision making when it comes to this stuff. I was bidding on a 25hp dust collector a few weeks ago in Ohio. Went for $4050, they're almost $15k new. I should've kept bidding.

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a ten horse cyclone and baghouse in the barn I may not be using I might sell reasonably. I'll have to think about it a bit. I may just blow outside.

[Martin Wasner]

I figure I need about 8000cfm just to get back on top of what I've already got. That likely puts me around 25hp without a cyclone, more like 30hp with a cyclone I'd bet.

I can't believe what they get for an airlock at the bottom of a cyclone or baghouse either. Just insane.

[J.R. Rutter]

I figure I need about 8000cfm just to get back on top of what I've already got. That likely puts me around 25hp without a cyclone, more like 30hp with a cyclone I'd bet.

I can't believe what they get for an airlock at the bottom of a cyclone or baghouse either. Just insane.

How many people do you have? I wish that I had gone bigger years ago...

[Martin Wasner]

Just me at the moment. I'm hoping to move out of the leased space I'm in and put up a new shop soon. I don't want to deal with multiple collectors inside the building like I have now.

Lots of used stuff out there, tough to find anything for a small shop though. You can get 100+ horsepower units all day long, the smaller stuff, not so much.

[J.R. Rutter]

Ah, I see. The downside to a big collector is energy cost. It is my #1 power user since it runs even if it is just me at the table saw or cutoff saw. At the same time, 15 hp cyclone starts to struggle with multiple people and lots of open gates. I don't need much more though, for our space.

[Martin Wasner]

Ah, I see. The downside to a big collector is energy cost. It is my #1 power user since it runs even if it is just me at the table saw or cutoff saw. At the same time, 15 hp cyclone starts to struggle with multiple people and lots of open gates. I don't need much more though, for our space.


I know it on the electric bill, and I'm dreading that. Typically my shop has two bodies in it. I've gone six months with just me, and it has sucked. I had a great guy working for me that was very flexible. If we had a week or two with nothing going on, he was happy with the time off. He was working just to stay occupied. I've never had more than three people in the shop working, it's just too crowded. With three, it takes some serious choreography to keep from tripping over one another. I'm in 2500 sq/ft, and there is just way too much stuff packed in here, the goal is to put up 5500 sq/ft of production space, with 1700sq/ft of staging area, and another 800+ of office and bathrooms. I've been on my own since 04' and things have been growing slowly. I'm out of space, and I'm out of juice in the building I'm leasing. I'm hoping that the new shop will be adequate for about 5 or 6 people on the floor, and not have to trip over one another. Currently I've got 15 machines that need a 4" pipe going to it, and the widebelt has two 7" ports. With what I've got now for equipment and ~8000 cfm of dust collection, I shouldn't have to close any gates. Which would be nice. BUT, with more space comes more equipment. What I've got laid out, I'll be adding at least one more chop box on a build bench, 4 shapers, a jump saw, another Castle machine, and another tablesaw. That right there is another 7, 4" pipes, and probably a 6" on the jump saw. So I'll be back to closing gates in no time. My widebelt has 3800 cfm going to it currently, and it is barely adequate. I think they spec'd 4000cfm as a minimum. I think also they need actual airflow, whereas the dust collectors are rated on what the fan will push with no filters or pipe. Plus I'd like to find a moulder at some point just for running sticking and sizing faceframe stock. The way I do it now is plain asinine. I have been thinking about using something like a pair of Model 27's in tandem, hang both in a welded up frame of a table, and put one on linear bearings to adjust the distance between the spindles. It'd be a whole lot cheaper and simpler than buying a 4 or 5 head moulder used and only making use of two of the heads. At least it'd be a one pass operation that way.


Chicken and the egg. I need the added business to pay for the tools, bodies, and larger shop. But I need the tooling, bodies, and larger shop to take on the business. It's a vicious cycle. :rolleyes:

[David Kumm]

Ever thought of dedicated machines for a few and pneumatic gates with properly sized piping and a 10 hp cyclone for the rest? Dave

[Martin Wasner]

Ever thought of dedicated machines for a few and pneumatic gates with properly sized piping and a 10 hp cyclone for the rest? Dave

It'd be nice to get it outside though, for cleaner air in the shop, and not have to deal with full bags in the shop itself. With a cyclone and an airlock, I can either have it drop into a dumpster or dump trailer. In the winter the air would have to come back into the shop, but in the summer I'd just dump the air outside. I'd really like to have a big cyclone, and in the summer skip the filters if possible. Whatever doesn't drop out of the air in the cyclone shouldn't be much of an issue just going outside?

Now if you were really high tech, you'd have gates that are actuated by the machine being on, and a central system sensing what is open. Then you could have a variable speed fan, or possibly smaller motors working in tandem. I think the electric bill would be cheaper, and certainly less prone to failure.

[J.R. Rutter]

I started to feel bad a bout taking this thread so far off topic, but realized you are OP, so no big deal.

I looked into a VFD for my cyclone and using a pressure sensor as a control input, but Donaldson told me that separation would suffer in the cyclone if velocity dropped. I guess coming from a garage shop, I never had a problem with gates. We do choke down the air volume with them, but my unit is pretty high pressure, so velocity goes up which helps on some machines.

Are you doing cabinetry, Martin? Ever looked at the basic 4-head planer/moulders? Compact size and pretty easy setup, but no flattening to speak of.

[Martin Wasner]

I looked into a VFD for my cyclone and using a pressure sensor as a control input, but Donaldson told me that separation would suffer in the cyclone if velocity dropped. I guess coming from a garage shop, I never had a problem with gates. We do choke down the air volume with them, but my unit is pretty high pressure, so velocity goes up which helps on some machines.


That's where I wonder if separate units in tandem would work and having them controlled somehow. Probably controlled by a couple of variables. I know I've seen cyclones working in tandem, but I'm not sure about fans. I don't know what the best answer is. Either, way. It seems to add complications that probably aren't going to net much gain in the long run. If you've got the work flow to justify it, it shouldn't be an issue. But, as you say, when you're the only guy running a pop saw, it's expensive time.




Are you doing cabinetry, Martin? Ever looked at the basic 4-head planer/moulders? Compact size and pretty easy setup, but no flattening to speak of.

Yep. Residential cabinets. I've looked at some. I get pretty scared off at the prices though. lol I also don't know what brands I should be looking for. I probably would still order material at 13/16", I don't see any gain on my end surfacing parts myself. So I'm back to using only part of the machines capacity. I don't see myself ever making crown or much for mouldings. Others can do it better and cheaper than I can. But, if you find the right machine used, it'd certainly be a better choice than my Rube Goldberg shaper idea.

Speaking of getting scared at prices. I got a quote a few months ago for a Unique automatic double coper. I was expecting it to be less than $20k... $35,000! whoa. Plus you still would have to have at least one shaper set up as a coper for long rails that wouldn't fit between the spindles on the Unique machine, like large paneled ends.

No easy answers

[Larry Edgerton]

Have you given any thought to having two units? This is what I had at the last shop but was sold with the building. The only time I ran them both was when I had the wide belt running. Two gave me the CFM I needed for the WB, but most of the time I only used one. Saved on electricity and gave me a redundancy factor in case of failure. Initial cost was actually less than a large unit with comparable CFM.

I have that 10 horse unit now that I have not hooked up, but I am considering putting together a similar system here.

Just a thought......

[Martin Wasner]

Well Peter, on your glowing recommendation on the SAC shapers I picked up a 8.5hp unit on an auction. Holy crap is it heavy! I've got a heavily sprung ¾ ton pickup, and she squatted a bit when it was loaded. $1320 with the auction house's take. I'm planning on setting it up for panel raising with a four roll feeder. It's been sitting in un-heated space for at least year, so there's some surface dust on the cast, but that's no big deal. I'm not sure if it's wired for 480v or 230v either.

[Peter Quinn]

Well Peter, on your glowing recommendation on the SAC shapers I picked up a 8.5hp unit on an auction. Holy crap is it heavy! I've got a heavily sprung ¾ ton pickup, and she squatted a bit when it was loaded. $1320 with the auction house's take. I'm planning on setting it up for panel raising with a four roll feeder. It's been sitting in un-heated space for at least year, so there's some surface dust on the cast, but that's no big deal. I'm not sure if it's wired for 480v or 230v either.

good deal! Enjoy that. In an odd twist just after we discussed pm/ houildalle a large tilting SAC became available through another creeker, the shop I'm in picked it up, 11hp tilting head SAC, it's the old green color, we call it big Bertha! YeA, they didn't spare any cast iron on these things! I'm loving being back on a big SAC again! It spins a 5" molding head like it's not even there!

[Martin Wasner]

It's got a 1" spindle according to the listing. That's just odd to me, I'm hoping it's a typo and it's actually 1¼" spindle. A shouldered sleeve isn't a big deal, but I'd rather not.

[Peter Quinn]

It's got a 1" spindle according to the listing. That's just odd to me, I'm hoping it's a typo and it's actually 1¼" spindle. A shouldered sleeve isn't a big deal, but I'd rather not.


Lol....the one I got has an 1 1/8" spindle...even more odd. Everyone involved thought it was 1 1/4", I didn't even check it until the day I powered it up and went to throw a cutter on it for testing....oops! Bushings were easy to get for 1 1/8 x 1 1/4, I'm waiting On a 1 1/8x 1 1/2 set to spin some molder heads we got at auction, I just spin them on the other shaper. Ive never understood when these other standards were prevalent? I've never seen 1 1/8" bore cutters for sale, 1" I've seen but it's pretty rare these days. Even with bushings the SAC I'm running is smoother than many shapers I've used.

[Martin Wasner]

Mine might have an 1-1/8", I didn't hardly look at it. It's been peeing all morning so they pulled it out, I wrapped it in a tarp and stretch wrap, then forked it into the pickup. I'm still driving back to the shop. 7 hours of driving round trip, but I wasn't about to pay $500 to have it shipped. I had to pay $50 just to have the riggers put it in my pickup. :(

[Martin Wasner]

I hate rust.

http://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11052432_10205486751479418_6907511275166129498_n.j pg?oh=7029a4a0546a7aab3edf8fabf75bf8a5&oe=5604703C

http://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/11267221_10205486750959405_7061978257623191007_n.j pg?oh=169ebcf19fb93ce294aedde716a3e884&oe=55D54128

http://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/11050688_10205486750559395_1234918679960897448_n.j pg?oh=6dbfc2cbb641118d62ed46f0007f88ad&oe=55CB76CF

Pretty much cleaned up

http://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11102742_10205486751879428_2797650924384094255_n.j pg?oh=a4a5a5e0d30f875149429382eca31c2f&oe=5602A0AD

http://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/l/t1.0-9/11059718_10205486752279438_9026536659272303662_n.j pg?oh=555c5056f576b5aa3cabe9a962634942&oe=55CAC94B

This is about all the better I've got time for. Even this took probably four hours. I need to hunt around and see if I can get a 9" velcro backed Scotch pad for my Milwaukee polisher. I feel like that would've made this much easier. I started off hosing it down with LPS3 and scraping it with a junk chisel to break up some of the rust. After that I burned through about 20, 5" discs sanding it up with 150g. I hit it with a wire wheel in a 4" angle grinder, the ground on it with polishing compound with a wool bonnet in the Milwaukee polisher. Then burned up a bunch of Box O' Rag white rags hosing it down with TopCoat and wiping it off. Took a long time to not turn the rag black almost instantly.

http://scontent-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/22294_10205486752519444_7000693805265972170_n.jpg? oh=ae35af7e8be7997130e699e75ea097aa&oe=55D21127



I don't think it's the 8.5hp the listing said it was, the motor is physically pretty small. I've got a picture of plate on the motor, but I need to convert KW to HP. Also wired for 480v, but the motor tag says it can do 220v, so that makes me happy. I was pretty sure it could, but hadn't confirmed it. It has a 1" spindle in it too. I should post a picture of the spindle. I think it might be interchangeable. If I'm not happy about using bushings, I could have a new spindle made pretty easily.

This isn't the final resting place either. I think I'm going to have to move the cabinet next to it, (which has the linebore sitting on it), elsewhere in the shop. It's not usable where it's sitting jammed in the corner like that.

Oh, and Peter. "quill like a dump truck" is completely accurate. Holy crap that is awesome the way it's setup. I also like how chips from the cutter can not fall down anywhere important. I think I could easily make something for another port for dust collection to suck what does fall under the cutter out. Quite the machine. I hope it runs....

[Martin Wasner]

Huh. I'm wrong. 6.4KW = 8.58HP. Go figure. The motor looks about the physical size of a 5HP Baldor.

[David Kumm]

Huh. I'm wrong. 6.4KW = 8.58HP. Go figure. The motor looks about the physical size of a 5HP Baldor.



Euro machines use smaller frame metric motors now. Makes lifting them easier and probably allows them to lighten the internals. It will be either 90 or 112 frame. My 10 hp Felder has a 90 which was really meant for 4 hp. 112 is meant for 5.5 but is usually what the 9 hp motors use. They run hotter so check bearings as they fail sooner. Motor guys hate rewinding them and charge accordingly. Dave

[Martin Wasner]

Peter, do you know if you have a manual for a TS 120 at your work? Specifically a wiring diagram for the controls? I can't find one online. Mines wired for 480v, and I've got 208v. My electrician buddy isn't positive on what needs to be switched around. He doesn't want to grenade the transformer in it, so he's thinking about using another transformer hanging on the wall to bump the 208 up to 480. Seems complicated and messy to me.

[Peter Quinn]

Peter, do you know if you have a manual for a TS 120 at your work? Specifically a wiring diagram for the controls? I can't find one online. Mines wired for 480v, and I've got 208v. My electrician buddy isn't positive on what needs to be switched around. He doesn't want to grenade the transformer in it, so he's thinking about using another transformer hanging on the wall to bump the 208 up to 480. Seems complicated and messy to me.


Sorry Martin, the TS120 I used was at the last job, and they got them used, no manuals, wired 208. No diagram on or inside the motor cover?

[Martin Wasner]

Unfortunately there isn't anything anywhere.

Maybe one of his co-workers will have a good idea or better knowledge of which to flip where.