Shaper Rail/Stile Cutters

[Michael W. Clark]

I got a used Delta HD shaper that came with several panel raiser cutters, but I do not have any rail/stile cutters. I started looking at Amana, Freud, Freeborn, etc. and got confused. It seems the mult-blade ones are more versatile, but then there are reversible single cutters that are a lot less expensive, but little flexibility. Some are a two-cutter set. What are some features I should look for as a hobby user? My price range is probably more in line with brazed tooling and Freeborn is at the upper end to give you an idea of my budget.

I did just buy a CMT head with multiple cutters. I have not tried it yet, till my new feeder tires arrive. I see they also have several profiles available.

Thanks,
Mike

[David Kumm]

Watch ebay for lightly used brazed tip Freeborn. The 6 cutter set with the tongue trimmer is as easy to set as any. The insert are nice but you really need to make a lot of doors to dull the brazed. they are a good start and you can learn from there. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

What bore do you have available? Generally I find the 6 pc freeborn sets to be the most versatile, and the profiles are well designed, the slight shear angle minimizes tear out, very versatile, easy to use. Some of the reversible cutters limit your ability to match the set to man made panels, such as plywood, or to change the tongue thickness. A freeborn set can be ordered with an adjustable groover if you do a lot with undersized flat panels. What you need sort of depends on your goals and is tied to your budget. As a pro I'm called on to make all sorts of different doors in a given month, might be 3/4", might be 1" or 1 1/16" (the defacto standard for high end work in my area), might be 1" square edge with 1/2" stain grade flat panels, rarely ever use 1/4" panels but occasionally. So I need a set to be as versatile as possible, to be able to make divided lite glass doors, etc. So first you have to decide what you plan to make, not every set has the versatility, some of the two piece stacks are adjustable, but over a much more narrow range, you can't run a 1/2" tongue for instance, but they will make perfectly acceptable doors over their range. The 3pc reversible sets tend to make strange profiles which seem determined more by their need to be cheap and use minimal cutters than to be aesthetically pleasing, so make sure you like what you are buying. And some of the freud cutters I have used either make profiles I don't like or have that built in ease between stile and rail that screams "cheap department store doors", that I can live without.

If its a 3/4" bore shaper, the infinity tool sets are worth a good look, some of the best bang for the buck in braised tooling in the smaller size.

[Michael W. Clark]

Thanks David, I'll take a look at ebay. I wasn't sure about buying something like that on there, but if you have had good experience, I will take a look. I do like the Freeborn multi cutter sets.

Peter, it is 1-1/4" spindle. I would like to run the door parts face down so any thickness variation is on the back side. With the Freeborn 6 cutter sets, are you saying the tongue/groove cutters can be bought and replaced separately for other thicknesses? I saw the option for different toungue thicknesses in the catalogue but wasn't sure if the whole set was different. What tounge thickness is "standard" or typically preferred?

Do you guys climb cut the stiles?

[David Kumm]

My freeborn are face up run ccw. I'm used to that so i prefer it. Most Freeborn cabinet and entry door sets are 4" diameter so tongue and groove cutters can be swapped. Most cabinet sets trim a 3/8" deep groove but I have freeborn center cutters that cut 5/8" which is what i always use. I seldom feel the need for loose tenons or other reinforcement with the longer T and G. I generally run 1" rails and stiles so the entry door set also gets used for cabinet doors. Bigger profile but i prefer the look. Dave

[Michael W. Clark]

Dave,
When you use your entry door set, do you just remove the bottom cutters?
Mike

[David Kumm]

The entry set has both 1/4 and 1/2" thick center cutters. I use one center cutter from the cope as a bottom on the rail and vice versa. I then run the 3/4" raised panel center with no back cut needed. I like the extra depth for the look. Dave

[Ken Grant]

I run the freeborn insert cutters for rail and style cabinet doors, and have been happy with them. I would get a minimum 1/2" groove depth if you plan to use rubber spacers around your panel.

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks David, I'll take a look at ebay. I wasn't sure about buying something like that on there, but if you have had good experience, I will take a look. I do like the Freeborn multi cutter sets.

Peter, it is 1-1/4" spindle. I would like to run the door parts face down so any thickness variation is on the back side. With the Freeborn 6 cutter sets, are you saying the tongue/groove cutters can be bought and replaced separately for other thicknesses? I saw the option for different tongue thicknesses in the catalogue but wasn't sure if the whole set was different. What tongue thickness is "standard" or typically preferred?

Do you guys climb cut the stiles?


Check the Freeborn PDF catalogue for braised tooling, page 10. There are a variety of groover options available that can be included with any cope and stick set at time of purchase, or probably added later should the need arise. Options are listed on page 10. Braised sets should ALWAYS be sharpened as a set to maintain the match and diameter, even cutters you may not have used in the set. There is really no hard and fast standard for tongue thickness, 1/4" is most common in the USA. for cabinet doors. For solid wood raised panels its pretty much not relevant, you make the grooves as you make the doors and match the panel tongues to this. But in situations where plywood or other man made material acts as panel, you might have to set the groove to the panels. Say a flat panel door which are quite popular presently, and you are using rift sawn white oak plywood...which I did recently. Can't sand that to fit...veneer is really thin. And it may not arrive at 1/4", or at any exact number you can hit with a solid braised cutter, so the adjustable cutter can help.

Last place I worked used mostly sets with 3/8" profile depth, 1/2" panel tongue depth, which is an option available from freeborn, they claimed the longer tongue makes it stronger. The entry door sets were all 1/2" depth of profile, 5/8" depth of tongue. But there are a number of different configurations available. I prefer ANY cope and stick set to run face down, its the way I was trained for reasons you mentioned...planers aren't always perfect, I want the flats on the front consistent, any inaccuracy in thickness gets transferred to the back where it can easily be sanded off. Of course I was also trained on entry and passage doors...so there is no back and I generally wide belt all my parts prior to shaping as the wide belt tends to be more accurate than the planer IME.

Climb cutting is always my last option and not my SOP. I always mill a few test pieces from the stock I'm using, and I know the usual suspects for tear out (soft maple, hairy african mahogany, occasionally sapele, etc). If my test pieces run well, and they generally do with a sharp freeborn set, its standard counter feed for me. If I'm having problems counter feeding I will climb cut all parts that are long enough, sometimes I'll even stick short rails in multiples and cope later with a backer coped to match the sticking. But its not my first choice and not done without reason. Most species mill quite well on the shaper in standard counter feed orientation IME

[Jeff Duncan]

If you can afford new buy the Freeborn new. They are good quality and will make several kitchens worth of doors in hardwood before needing re-sharpening. The thing with buying cutters on e-bay is you have no idea how much use they have, you could get them completely dull. So now your sending out a whole set of cutters and paying for them to be sharpened right after buying them!

I run door parts face down as it ensures even if I have to mill a second batch of parts they're all the same on the face. The panel cutters can be swapped out independently of the set. I have an extra set of 3/8" cutters and use them whenever I can fit the thicker panels.

good luck,
JeffD

[John Huds0n]

Although the Freeborn brazed 6 piece cope and pattern set may be a little more expensive that their competitors - they have a major advantage in that these sets have a "common minor diameter" and common elevation. This means you don't have to change the fence or the spindle elevation when changing from the cope to the pattern cutter

[David Kumm]

The Freeborn entry set is an 8 cutter set and the four tongue and groove cutters are matched so they can do double duty as cabinet sets. They are the only set I know of that allows that. I agree with Jeff that you need to be careful when buying used. I watch for Felder and MM guys selling as they don't tend to use their stuff much. The various tongue and groove cutters come up more often than the profiles and the entry sets almost never. Dave

PS In a perfect world the Freeborn cope and stick and raised panel would come in a little larger diameter like the Euro sets. Works better on larger shapers and Aigner fences.

[Martin Wasner]

Freeborn can be ordered in any configuration. Face down, face up, clockwise, counterclockwise. I'm waiting to hear from my blade guy on pricing for three new sticking insert heads, six cope heads, and two straight insert heads to replace everything I've got, so all the diameters are the same and ask the tongues are the same. I've got one set of Freeborn insert heads that I wish I would've ordered differently. From the face of the machined part, to the backside of the panel is 5/8, I'd like to have some more room than that. The other profiles I've got have different diameters, drives me nuts having to change setups all the time. Changing cutters takes long enough without having to change height and fences.

[John Huds0n]

I found very good prices on Freeborn from RouterbitWorld.com - they also sell on Amazon and sometimes one is cheaper than then other but for the most part it seems the cutters are dropped ship directly from Freeborn. It would be interesting to see how their prices compare to your 'blade guy's'

[Larry Edgerton]

Because I have to ship everything out to get it sharpened with all of the possible complications involved, I prefer insert tooling. I add in to the cost of every job a certain amount for new inserts. I don't do a lot of doors any more though so I am not looking at it like a production guy.

[Peter Quinn]

The Freeborn entry set is an 8 cutter set and the four tongue and groove cutters are matched so they can do double duty as cabinet sets. They are the only set I know of that allows that. I agree with Jeff that you need to be careful when buying used. I watch for Felder and MM guys selling as they don't tend to use their stuff much. The various tongue and groove cutters come up more often than the profiles and the entry sets almost never. Dave

PS In a perfect world the Freeborn cope and stick and raised panel would come in a little larger diameter like the Euro sets. Works better on larger shapers and Aigner fences.

David is spot on about the entry sets making cabinet doors, and I am a chowder head! I apologize for the misinformation and have deleted it from the post. I was only looking at the off set of the tongue versus sticking and thinking they could not be swapped because of it, but of course they are complimentary and simply result in an off set shoulder. The really stupid part is I just assembled 35 or so cabinet doors that somebody else ran using an entry set from freeborn, but didn't realize what I was looking at until I looked at a cutter stack this morning. Thanks David for keeping me honest.

On other fronts I have a Laguna insert head for entry doors that will also convert to thick cabinet doors, so there may be other sets that do this as well?

[Michael W. Clark]

Thanks for the replies. Looks like I am going with a Freeborn set of some type.
A couple of more questions.

When you change from cope to sticking, I assume you have to change the height. I plan to make a coping sled since I don't have a slider. How do you get the right height each time? Set up blocks and test pieces?
Also, any bearings or shims you would recommend getting with the set?

[Mel Fulks]

If you run the material face down and instead of using sled just run the rail copes on pieces at least 5and 1/2 inches wide
there is no changing height. Feeder is used instead of slider. Then you rip down rails to needed width before running the sticking.With some sets you might have to put a shim several thousandths thick under sticking tooling to get perfect flush fit. I find it simpler and easier to change the tooling . The sets are made to work like that . Some prefer slider method. Forgot to mention that you need a "rub collar" which may or may not come with sets, can be bought separately.

[Peter Quinn]

Set ups blocks and test cuts for me. It helps to have a DRO on the shaper. You can use a rub collar, non bearing type for the stub tenon spacer on cabinet doors with the fence plates in tight and a miter gauge to do the pushing, or just a push block, so long as you ensure the pieces wont get sucked in. Ive done thousands of doors that way...hated every one, pictures of fingers flying off the whole time, but its quick cheap and effective on cabinet door parts, have done lots of passage doors that way too. I prefer a sled, to me the set up is not a big deal, take under 5 minutes to do the change over, half the time I can nail the height by eye. I run a test of the cutter to set the flat I want on the sticking, use that to set the cope height, cope, the go back to the sticking using my previous set up block, which I save with the knives.

[jack forsberg]

i use a lot of HSS 50mm pin knifes and they last me my size jobs even though i sharpen them or make my own shapes. I like the stub spindle coping heads from White Hill with the recess in the top for a bolt that you can float the rail over top for any length tenon.as i like real tenons not floaters. Wadkin made a stub top mount for the BER2 that had a stub mount too so it turned your spindle moulder into a tenoner. Would love to find one.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c258/Real_Scrit/Machinery%20-%20Wadkin/TenoningAttachment-p154Parrys1964Ca.jpg (http://s29.photobucket.com/user/Real_Scrit/media/Machinery%20-%20Wadkin/TenoningAttachment-p154Parrys1964Ca.jpg.html)

[John Huds0n]

When you change from cope to sticking, I assume you have to change the height. I plan to make a coping sled since I don't have a slider. How do you get the right height each time? Set up blocks and test pieces?
Also, any bearings or shims you would recommend getting with the set?

As I mentioned earlier, if you go with the standard Freeborn brazed 6 piece set, you do not have to change the height or the fence when you switch cutters

I do have a slider, but I actually prefer to use my sled from Infinity tools
http://www.infinitytools.com/Coping_Crosscut-Sleds/products/1382/?key=gppc&gclid=Cj0KEQjw_pmoBRDu986bpISz5ZsBEiQANiuHDJcX9Uf8 fvdtiw2SHbZXdaXAHTUCMyB9PfkySBpFrzUaAjAU8P8HAQ

What I do is raise the spindle to the correct height, which I check with a Betterly Una-Gauge. From trial and error, I know I need a 10mm along with a .2mm and a .5mm shim to compensate for the height of the sled. I purchased a Freud shaper shim set from Amazon and it works well for me;
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000P18VAU/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

When I am done with the copes, I remove the shims and I am good to go

Freeborn recommends a 3 1/4" bearing (FREEBORN AP-90-052) with these sets. Top right corner of this page under Pro Line
http://www.freeborntool.com/BrazedTooling2014.pdf#page=4

Also, it comes in real handy to help set the fence
https://www.routerbitworld.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=FREEBORN%20AP-90-052

Lastly I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you check your spindle alignment before you order (if your buying new). Here is one way to do it - page 3 at this link:
http://www.freeborntool.com/FreebornTool2014Catalogue2.pdf

Or better yet get a Betterly Una-Gauge if you can afford it
http://www.betterleytools.com/unagauge/unagauge.html

The reason why I mention the alignment/runout is it can effect how tight of a fit you will get. If you find problems, you probably would be better off ordering a set with the adjustable center groovers
http://www.freeborntool.com/faq.html#three

[Jeff Duncan]

I use a sled for coping so need to change the height when switching…..or at least used to. Now I set up 2 shapers, 1 cope, 1 stick, no more changing cutters mid way. I've heard several other ways guys do their door parts, but none convinced me they were any better. As for setting the height, I set it to the backer block which is a piece of stock with the profile coped into it. Usually make a half dozen or so at a time so they last for several jobs. Easy to make, just swap out the sticking cutters for the coping without changing the height. Run several feet of stock through and then rip it into a good size for your backing blocks….about 1-1/4" for me. So with this in place on your coping sled you set your cutters to it and then only need a small bit of tweaking to get them perfect.

Or…..you can cheat and make it easy and get yourself a DRO like Peter:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Ken Grant]

I stack my cutters on the spindle-sticking on the bottom, coping on top. I made a coping sled of the appropriate thickness (1 1/8" thick in my case) so that I can cope without moving the spindle height setting. This makes it really easy to go back and make another door if you need to. I have tried several other ways, but this is my favorite so far.

[Justin Ludwig]

I use a cope sled that is dead on .25" thick. I swap cutter and put down a slick piece of HDF that is .235" thick so I only have to adjust the cutters a 1/4 turn down (this set up is quick and repeatable for me as a single shaper user). I run my stiles against an outboard fence that gets clamped to the table. I use Freeborn and stepped up to the T-Alloy (yellow) cutters with an eased edge. Love'm. If you happen to choose an eased edge set, just know that you'll have to purchase an extra 1/2" groover that has an eased edge on the top side (CCW rotation) if you want to run T&G. I didn't read Freeborn's catalog correctly (and it's not crystal clear, the eased edge options) I had to fork over another $180. It's already paid for itself.

I've read mixed reviews about eased edge cutters for doors. My painter sure likes them. From a design stand point, you can't tell the difference unless you shove your nose up to it.

[Michael W. Clark]

Thanks again for the input.

Mel, your method sounds like one of the simplest for repeatable results and I had not thought of coping wide boards and ripping them apart. I will have to think about it a little and may look at it again in the future. To be honest, short peices make me nervous with the feeder and I may not always have a wide enough board.

Ken, I saw a guy on Youtube that stacks the cutters. It looks like his set is smaller than the Freeborn set and is a 2-cutter set. With my smaller bearings and quill assembly, I would prefer to keep the cutters as close to the table as possible. Looks like a great way to do it though.

Peter and Jeff, thanks for the explanations on the DRO and sled setups. I will likely go with Jeff's setup and sled at least to start with. I assume 3/4" ply would be rigid enough for the sled body and built up fence? I have several of the cam clamps I could integrate on the sled.

John, thanks for taking the time to post all the links. I assume that shim set is metal? The Freeborn set is plastic, but metal seems more desirable to me. I have checked runout and it is good, but have not checked alignment by the method in the link. I will do that, especially if I have any problems.

Jack, you always post cool stuff!

Justin, I saw the eased edge options, but do not really understand the benefit/downsides.

[Martin Wasner]

I saw the eased edge options, but do not really understand the benefit/downsides.


It makes a bit of a shadow that can hide some sins like panels moving with environment changes, especially on paint grade stuff since the line where the panel meets the sticking is behind the face just a bit.
Should be less fuzz not having it come to a sharp edge with some woods. Especially if you're doing a climb cut.
Panels should fall into the slot easier during assembly.
A freckly more surface area for glue. (inconsequential I'd bet)

With that said, my finisher doesn't want to deal with it when I asked him, even though one set I've got has it already. I could see it being a bit more difficult to get stain out, but not so much that you'd probably even notice.

[Jeff Duncan]

Ply should be OK, but if you have some scrap mdf even better. MDF is more stable, uniform, flat, and wears really well. I use mdf for all shop jigs. Here's one of my sleds….
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2685.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_2685.jpg.html)

Even the little rails can be run very safely….
http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/IMG_2686.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/IMG_2686.jpg.html)

good luck,
JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

All of the methods will work, but op....remember op? ...calls himself a hobbiest. So I don't think extra shaper and such are
realistic. I have used the easy method I suggested for commercial shop doors and employers were happy with results and
simplicity . Sand all material on face side , run with face down , assemble and quickly finish sanding face with orbital. The
real problem, in my opinion, with commercial doors is the salesmen make so many mistakes in writing up orders.

[Michael W. Clark]

Looks good Jeff, I like the simple sled. Does it ride the fence?

[Peter Quinn]

All of the methods will work, but op....remember op? ...calls himself a hobbiest. So I don't think extra shaper and such are
realistic. I have used the easy method I suggested for commercial shop doors and employers were happy with results and
simplicity . Sand all material on face side , run with face down , assemble and quickly finish sanding face with orbital. The
real problem, in my opinion, with commercial doors is the salesmen make so many mistakes in writing up orders.

Ive seen guys do this at work, and it seems to work but starts to fail on larger doors with longer rails. Problem, sometimes when you split a 6" piece of soft maple or mahogany in half, it doesn't stay straight, the ends are now coped but no longer parallel. The sticking cut may fix the bow on rails edge, but when you get to glue up you have to clamp the door up out of square to close up the copes and hope you left enough room to correct it in fitting, more problematic for inset than overlay.

[J.R. Rutter]

If I were setting up a single shaper for cope and stick, I would plan to stack both sets of cutters, with copes on top. Make a sled high enough so that it registers for cutting the copes while the sticking set can spin below it. You can space and shim between the stick and cope sets to dial in the height exactly. Make the sled big enough to shroud the bottom cutters (easy if it is running in a slot). The power feeder will shroud the cope set while the sticking is run. If you want to get one step more sophisticated, make a strip for the fence up at the height where it will register for the copes so that it just barely trims the whole end of the rail. The bottom of the fence is then behind the sticking so that you can feed slightly wider pieces using an outboard fence. I make all rail and stile parts 1/16" wide and remove the whole edge on the sticking pass. This dials in the width exactly and eliminates the need to climb cut in all but the trickiest woods (like VG Fir or Hemlock that want to split out along growth rings).

Now the shaper can be left set up until all doors are assembled and if you need to remake a part, there is no swapping or adjusting. Fewer compromises because you aren't tempted to make a marginal part work to avoid a setup.

[jack forsberg]

no sure why you would not want two or 3 spindle moulders(way less money than freeborn cutters) but if you have to get by with just one then run extra stile(this is my first cut and i cut to length later) and do the cope last(i use the power feeder and and a square wood backer on the table). If you make a mistake the cope is the last set up on the moulder so need to reset up. cut your stile stock for rails 2 at a time with in 1/8 and cope. for that i have a flip stops on the RAS set to take off two stile widths add back the tenon length.I make a block of wood that length to set the stop off the fence rule. If i am making a 24" door i put the block on 24" and use the block to set the stop and that does all the calculation for me. I don't think after that i mill. All i have to know is how wide the door is.

[peter gagliardi]

no sure why you would not want two or 3 spindle moulders(way less money than freeborn cutters) but if you have to get by with just one then run extra stile(this is my first cut and i cut to length later) and do the cope last(i use the power feeder and and a square wood backer on the table). If you make a mistake the cope is the last set up on the moulder so need to reset up. cut your stile stock for rails 2 at a time with in 1/8 and cope. for that i have a flip stops on the RAS set to take off two stile widths add back the tenon length.I make a block of wood that length to set the stop off the fence rule. If i am making a 24" door i put the block on 24" and use the block to set the stop and that does all the calculation for me. I don't think after that i mill. All i have to know is how wide the door is.
So, is your cope fence milled with the cope profile to accept your rails for coping? I taught myself, and was never happy with the results- always a slight amount of fuzz or tear out on the exit cut of the cope, especially after a bunch of parts, as the backer erodes. So, I make rails and stiles over width by about a 1/16", cope first, the set the fence like a jointer for the sticking cut- perfect fuzz and tear out free copes every time.
I do understand what you say about going back and having to make replacement, or more parts, and why you stage your job that way.
Of course, with the digital readout on the spindle height of the Martin, all I have to do is write down the "absolute" spindle height before changing :D

[jack forsberg]

pete i use HSS and as i said there good for the scale of my work.if they get dull i sharpen them in the shop . No real set up as the knifes come out of the head so i don't move the cutter block. I 'm sure them Freeborn are nice i just don't what to spend that much on one shape and way to much for custom. cope fence is milled on one side the other is square on the fence

[Jeff Duncan]

Looks good Jeff, I like the simple sled. Does it ride the fence?

Yup, on the Euro machines it works great as you can really fine tune the fence in and out by thousandths! I'll set the fence close and run a test cut for depth, then I sneak up on the perfect depth, (which for me is the profile +1/32"), just by turning the back fence knob. Of course you can do the same on any shaper, just takes a little longer to fine tune;)

Also notice the backer block is held in place with another DeStaco clamp. This is important since as Peter mentioned the block can start to wear as you cope a lot of parts. With the clamp I can simply push the backer block up closer to the fence, (remember I'm off by 1/32" after the 1st cut), and get a fresh edge between parts without slowing down!

JeffD

[Joe Calhoon]

If I were setting up a single shaper for cope and stick, I would plan to stack both sets of cutters, with copes on top. Make a sled high enough so that it registers for cutting the copes while the sticking set can spin below it. You can space and shim between the stick and cope sets to dial in the height exactly. Make the sled big enough to shroud the bottom cutters (easy if it is running in a slot). The power feeder will shroud the cope set while the sticking is run. If you want to get one step more sophisticated, make a strip for the fence up at the height where it will register for the copes so that it just barely trims the whole end of the rail. The bottom of the fence is then behind the sticking so that you can feed slightly wider pieces using an outboard fence. I make all rail and stile parts 1/16" wide and remove the whole edge on the sticking pass. This dials in the width exactly and eliminates the need to climb cut in all but the trickiest woods (like VG Fir or Hemlock that want to split out along growth rings).

Now the shaper can be left set up until all doors are assembled and if you need to remake a part, there is no swapping or adjusting. Fewer compromises because you aren't tempted to make a marginal part work to avoid a setup.

I am with you on this JR. We always remove a little from the edge (1mm in our case) and avoid climb cutting like the plague. We use mostly the outside fence when we can and use a zero clearance inside fence for profiling assembled frames where a mm is removed. With VG fir on our large window and door profiles we have found that a pre cut eliminates the need to climb. Never tried this with cabinet size profiles though.

Good idea on the stacked single shaper. We get a lot of home shop woodworkers at the shaper workshop that have small Felder, Hammer and Minimax shapers. This would be a great setup on those machines.

Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

no sure why you would not want two or 3 spindle moulders(way less money than freeborn cutters) but if you have to get by with just one then run extra stile(this is my first cut and i cut to length later) and do the cope last(i use the power feeder and and a square wood backer on the table). If you make a mistake the cope is the last set up on the moulder so need to reset up. cut your stile stock for rails 2 at a time with in 1/8 and cope. for that i have a flip stops on the RAS set to take off two stile widths add back the tenon length.I make a block of wood that length to set the stop off the fence rule. If i am making a 24" door i put the block on 24" and use the block to set the stop and that does all the calculation for me. I don't think after that i mill. All i have to know is how wide the door is.

Jack,
You said you only cut true tenons on cabinet doors. I would like to see a picture of this setup on your shaper with the power feed.
Like Peter I was never happy with cope last using a counter back up. Always a little fuzz. I know a lot of people do this though. I just cannot picture the tenon cutting with the power feed.

Joe

[Michael W. Clark]

Yup, on the Euro machines it works great as you can really fine tune the fence in and out by thousandths! I'll set the fence close and run a test cut for depth, then I sneak up on the perfect depth, (which for me is the profile +1/32"), just by turning the back fence knob. Of course you can do the same on any shaper, just takes a little longer to fine tune;)

Also notice the backer block is held in place with another DeStaco clamp. This is important since as Peter mentioned the block can start to wear as you cope a lot of parts. With the clamp I can simply push the backer block up closer to the fence, (remember I'm off by 1/32" after the 1st cut), and get a fresh edge between parts without slowing down!

JeffD

Hi Jeff, one more question: Since you are taking the full profile+ on the cope cut, do you back the outfeed fence out of the way and only use the infeed fence? Or, is your sled cofigured so that it passes the outfeed fence if it is set for the sticking cut? My fence is probably not as beefy as a Euro fence, but it appears to be one of the better fences for my style of shaper and has the independently adjustable fences.

Mine is the same as the second picture in this thread.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?6774-More-Power-Feeder-Shaper-Mounting-Help-Please

Mike

[jack forsberg]

Jack,
You said you only cut true tenons on cabinet doors. I would like to see a picture of this setup on your shaper with the power feed.
Like Peter I was never happy with cope last using a counter back up. Always a little fuzz. I know a lot of people do this though. I just cannot picture the tenon cutting with the power feed.

Joe

don't use that set up for full tenons only stub cutters like in this thread. I do have some older type solid full body HSS Wadkin cutters that make sash through tenons but not pics of that. there a larger disk type joe but this thread is about doors with wood fields not glass as far as i can tell. not sure if its all the same thing with new tooling?


sorry found some pics of the HSS cutters Joe.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20001_zpsmqtqqd54.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20001_zpsmqtqqd54.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20002_zps9kt4nfjm.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20002_zps9kt4nfjm.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20003_zpszbdade6b.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20003_zpszbdade6b.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20004_zpsdgtgywxz.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20004_zpsdgtgywxz.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20005_zpsyqrgph9d.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20005_zpsyqrgph9d.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20006_zpsgsbrvlip.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20006_zpsgsbrvlip.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20007_zpsdadzgais.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20007_zpsdadzgais.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20008_zps1e4reunz.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/shaper%20cutters%20008_zps1e4reunz.jpg.html)

[Joe Calhoon]

don't use that set for full tenons only stub cutter like in this thread. I do have some older type solid full body HSS Wadkin cutters that make sash through tenons but not pics of that. there a larger disk type joe

Yea, I was wondering about that. We have a cabinet set that is larger diameter than the Freeborn sets and is capable of making a 2" plus tenon for historic or fine furniture work where you might want a true tenon. To do this you just remove the cutter that does the end cut of the stub tenon and put in a spacer for tenon thickness. We don't do many cabinets anymore and use this set for storm and screen sash with slot tenons. In the tenon mode this set could possibly be used with a sled but we use the sliding table. It is 160mm diameter.

This type set is another option for cabinet makers. This is a typical European cabinet set that does many profiles. I do think the Freborn sets are a better solution for most shops. We used a Freeborn door set for years and think of them as one of the best US tool makers. Air tight fits and easy setups as long as you maintain the proper sharpening. The Euro sets are more versatile to do more things and good for the single cabinet maker that does many styles. The down side is the profiles are reversed for cope and stick. So one is run face up and another face down. Your material S4S needs to be very exact.

Here are pictures of the set used for true tenoning.
Joe
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[jack forsberg]

Yea, I was wondering about that. We have a cabinet set that is larger diameter than the Freeborn sets and is capable of making a 2" plus tenon for historic or fine furniture work where you might want a true tenon. To do this you just remove the cutter that does the end cut of the stub tenon and put in a spacer for tenon thickness. We don't do many cabinets anymore and use this set for storm and screen sash with slot tenons. In the tenon mode this set could possibly be used with a sled but we use the sliding table. It is 160mm diameter.

This type set is another option for cabinet makers. This is a typical European cabinet set that does many profiles. I do think the Freborn sets are a better solution for most shops. We used a Freeborn door set for years and think of them as one of the best US tool makers. Air tight fits and easy setups as long as you maintain the proper sharpening. The Euro sets are more versatile to do more things and good for the single cabinet maker that does many styles. The down side is the profiles are reversed for cope and stick. So one is run face up and another face down. Your material S4S needs to be very exact.

Here are pictures of the set used for true tenoning.
Joe
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Nice blog here joe on how to do with out specal tooling

http://modernistmullings.blogspot.ca/2013/05/making-euro-windows-without-dedicated.html

[Joe Calhoon]

Sure Jack anything can be built without dedicated tooling. Here are the 2 most used tools in our shop. A rebate cutter and adjustable multi use cutter. These along with another smaller adjustable groover are the most used tools in our shop. We do a lot of one off and use these a lot with multi passes on the shaper.
I built my first tilt turn using only these two tools. We prototype a lot of windows using these. In fact did our first Danish style window job using these. In hind site I would never do a large job using these again.

I have a complete set of antique hand planes for window making that I hope to use one day to make a window. When I have a lot of time..
Joe


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[Peter Quinn]

Nice blog here joe on how to do with out specal tooling

http://modernistmullings.blogspot.ca/2013/05/making-euro-windows-without-dedicated.html

Thanks for that link Jack, can't tell you how any times I've been told that euro tilt hoppers couldn't be done without a $12K dedicated tooling package. Wonder where he got the metal sills with the folding drainage channels and the hardware? Doesn't really link those sources that I saw?

[Ken Grant]

If I were setting up a single shaper for cope and stick, I would plan to stack both sets of cutters, with copes on top. Make a sled high enough so that it registers for cutting the copes while the sticking set can spin below it. You can space and shim between the stick and cope sets to dial in the height exactly. Make the sled big enough to shroud the bottom cutters (easy if it is running in a slot). The power feeder will shroud the cope set while the sticking is run. If you want to get one step more sophisticated, make a strip for the fence up at the height where it will register for the copes so that it just barely trims the whole end of the rail. The bottom of the fence is then behind the sticking so that you can feed slightly wider pieces using an outboard fence. I make all rail and stile parts 1/16" wide and remove the whole edge on the sticking pass. This dials in the width exactly and eliminates the need to climb cut in all but the trickiest woods (like VG Fir or Hemlock that want to split out along growth rings).

Now the shaper can be left set up until all doors are assembled and if you need to remake a part, there is no swapping or adjusting. Fewer compromises because you aren't tempted to make a marginal part work to avoid a setup.

+1 ^^ this guy knows what he is talking about

[jack forsberg]

Thanks for that link Jack, can't tell you how any times I've been told that euro tilt hoppers couldn't be done without a $12K dedicated tooling package. Wonder where he got the metal sills with the folding drainage channels and the hardware? Doesn't really link those sources that I saw?

Pete you could ask Paul yourself if you wish.

http://www.woodworkuk.co.uk/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=43

[David Kumm]

+1 ^^ this guy knows what he is talking about

Just make sure the shaper is big enough to handle both the weight and the height of the cut on the spindle. Michael's shaper is not one I would try that with. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks for that link Jack, can't tell you how any times I've been told that euro tilt hoppers couldn't be done without a $12K dedicated tooling package. Wonder where he got the metal sills with the folding drainage channels and the hardware? Doesn't really link those sources that I saw?

Peter,
You can build a tilt turn window with a table saw and dado head if you have the technical knowledge of the hardware and a lot of time. I read through the blog and the author admitted that in hind site the price of the tooling did not seem that much after building the windows. He did have some rebate, slotting heads and the Euro hardware groover that made the process easier. He would have been better off to double domino or dowel the corners instead of cutting those tenons on the bandsaw.
I built my first tilt turn using the same Felder book he used and thinking the same thing that the tooling was not worth it. In our last shaper workshop we built a miniature euro double rebate door using only the rebate block shown on the left in the above picture and a hardware groover. We did dowel corners but could have done domino as well. We had a pro guy there that had been building passive house doors using dado heads and his sliding table saw. His head was spinning after he saw how easy the rebate block with the insert grooving and rounding cutters made the process.

In the blog the hardware was Roto and the water bar and sill looked like Gutmann. Some of that is available over here. There are a lot of systems and you need to have knowledge of what you need before calling any suppliers. Other wise they will lose patience and not want to sell you anything.

Joe

[Peter Quinn]

Peter,
You can build a tilt turn window with a table saw and dado head if you have the technical knowledge of the hardware and a lot of time. I read through the blog and the author admitted that in hind site the price of the tooling did not seem that much after building the windows. He did have some rebate, slotting heads and the Euro hardware groover that made the process easier. He would have been better off to double domino or dowel the corners instead of cutting those tenons on the bandsaw.
I built my first tilt turn using the same Felder book he used and thinking the same thing that the tooling was not worth it. In our last shaper workshop we built a miniature euro double rebate door using only the rebate block shown on the left in the above picture and a hardware groover. We did dowel corners but could have done domino as well. We had a pro guy there that had been building passive house doors using dado heads and his sliding table saw. His head was spinning after he saw how easy the rebate block with the insert grooving and rounding cutters made the process.

In the blog the hardware was Roto and the water bar and sill looked like Gutmann. Some of that is available over here. There are a lot of systems and you need to have knowledge of what you need before calling any suppliers. Other wise they will lose patience and not want to sell you anything.

Joe


Joe, Is there a source for the Felder book as a starting point? I can totally understand the tooling cost perspective on the number of units the gentleman in the blog was making, I would have bought the cutters at that level, I would like to make 4 to solve a specific challenge in my own home, perhaps 5 if I'm on a roll.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Peter,
You are a very skilled woodworker and can pull this off. The Felder book is no longer available but I will copy the key pages and post.
I am headed out backcountry skiing and will get back to you later with info.
In the meantime look at Functional Fenestrations website. Look up Gutmann de and look at Felders website at their new IV 78 tool set that is dowel construction.

Joe

[jack forsberg]

Joe, Is there a source for the Felder book as a starting point? I can totally understand the tooling cost perspective on the number of units the gentleman in the blog was making, I would have bought the cutters at that level, I would like to make 4 to solve a specific challenge in my own home, perhaps 5 if I'm on a roll.

here some help in the mean time while you wait for Joe.

http://mirrorfelder.cnh.at/Video/Fenstergarnitur/Bedienungsanleitung_Fenstergarnitur_EUS.pdf

Roto
http://www.vbhgb.com/Resource/galleries/vbh/download/GB/Products/Downloads/Roto_TBT_Issue_1_2014x.pdf


westward used to have a guild as well and might be worth an email

http://www.westwardbuildingservices.com/search.php?searchterm=connoisseur+tilt+turn+gearin g



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfc7J8gLwtg

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, Is there a source for the Felder book as a starting point? I can totally understand the tooling cost perspective on the number of units the gentleman in the blog was making, I would have bought the cutters at that level, I would like to make 4 to solve a specific challenge in my own home, perhaps 5 if I'm on a roll.

Hi Peter,
A little tough in an Internet post to cover a lot of details. We do a 4-day workshop on Euro windows and it is really only an introduction to the system. As I said you are skilled and if you study the sections you should be able to figure out a workable solution around your tooling.
The 2 Felder systems were designed for home woodworkers who wanted to build a few windows. The old 68 system was a take off on the old German system that has been around for many years. These drawings only show a single gasket but you could easily add a wing gasket like the 78 system has.

The 68 system is best suited for double IGU and the 78 allows triple IGU with the proper spacing between panes.

The 68 system has what is known as 9mm hardware axis, 18mm sash overlap and 18mm rebate depth. This is the heart of the system and hardware is ordered according to these overlaps.

The 78 system is a simple version of newer German designs and the tooling set is an improvement over their old system and works better for smaller shapers. They have a vortex in the frame rebate to shed driving rain better. Tough to copy this with no tools. I would just leave it square.
This system has 13mm hardware axis, 18mm sash overlap and 24mm rebate depth. Concealed hardware is available here for these dimensions. In the 68 system you will be better to stick with the exposed hinges.

These are only two basic systems and better is available but lets keep it simple. I have also seen custom US window shops come up with hybrid systems to use the hardware. Usually with a lot of issues.

FFI has the 5mm X 12mm main gasket and the wing gasket shown on the 78 system. Resource Conservation has the 5X12 but not the wing gasket.

The 12mm distance of the rebate is another key dimension of the system and most hardware is based on this. There is a 4mm system that requires mortising in the strikers. Also a 11mm Italian system that is pretty rare. It is better to shoot for 12.5mm in actual construction to allow for finish. Too tight and you will have problems with the top stay.

Water bars are the problem and you will not find the listed Gutmann and Bug here in the US. FFI has 2 types that I think could be adopted. My first window I made a waterbar based on drawings in Modern Practical Joinery and modified it to work with the window.
If you get down to hardware I have software to generate a list for FFI’s stuff and could help you out if you PM me.
Roto and Seginia are in the US. GU is now in Canada. I have dealt mostly with FFI and GU.

I would suggest making one window first to work out the bugs. With limited tooling I would dowel, domino or single slot and tenon the corners. You could do square edges on exterior sash and frame and only bevel the bottom rail of the sash. That would simplify the process a lot.

Rebate heads that take groovers and rounders make this easier. GU I think, sells a eurogroover router bit. Shaper eurogroovers are $400 or so. Gary Katz in his videos shows doing this in multi passes with a router if you want a lot of work. Eurogroove goes all the way around on windows.

Hope this helps,
Joe

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[Peter Quinn]

Thanks a million to both Joe and Jack, this puts me in the right direction!

[Joe Calhoon]

Peter another method worth considering for a few windows is corrigated cope and stick. If you have a grinding service that can maintain high precision you could have knives ground for this. I know a couple shops that have done this for small custom tilt turn projects. It would be 5 or 6 profiles depending on how you configure the frame. Plus the euro groove.

One high end US maker has sophisticated knife grinding and makes all windows with corrigated cutters produced in house.
Joe

[jack forsberg]

Peter another method worth considering for a few windows is corrigated cope and stick. If you have a grinding service that can maintain high precision you could have knives ground for this. I know a couple shops that have done this for small custom tilt turn projects. It would be 5 or 6 profiles depending on how you configure the frame. Plus the euro groove.

One high end US maker has sophisticated knife grinding and makes all windows with corrigated cutters produced in house.
Joe

thats how i would do it but i would grind my own on the viel grinder