Router New Info

[Bernie Weishapl]

Got a e-mail this morning from Pat Warner. I explained to him I was looking at the Marvel 60 and the Hitachi M12V. Was I surprised at what he had to say.


Per Pat:

I may be of little help. In my view, both the Marvel and the M12
routers are bad actors, light weights, poorly made and just plum unacceptable. I do not make subbases for either because I can't recommend them as good routers.

Anyway was a little surprised at what he had to say. Most everyone told me to e-mail him and to listen to what he had to say. He did recommend the De Walt DW 618PK combination or the DW 621k plunger. So I guess it is back to the drawing board and more research.

Bernie

[Keith Starosta]

Huh. :confused:

I guess I'm surprised to hear Pat say that about the Hitachi. I love mine, and haven't ever heard anybody ELSE say anything similar to Pat's comments. But, he IS the professional, so..... :rolleyes:

Keith

[Bob Noles]

Bernie,


When it comes to routers, Pat knows his stuff and has never led me wrong.

Always remember that the pros like the very best and high end equipment and rightly so as it is their livelyhood. This does not mean that the other stuff is bad, only that they have their preferences toward the best out there and hobbiests can many times make due with a little less.

[Dave Brandt]

And even pros have biases. I'd like to know what his is based on, especially with the Hitachi, which is the workhorse in probably ra large majority of router tables out there.

[JayStPeter]

Pat is a pretty opinionated guy. Read through his site for his opinions on router tables and such. He goes against the majority quite a bit. I will say that I respect his opinions and agree with many of them.
I have an M12V that I like as a table router. I used it once handheld and really had no problem dedicating it to the table. It works quite well there with a lift. When I bought mine, you could get refurbs for $89 off ebay. Can't beat that for bang for the buck.
If you're considering a router for handheld use, I agree with Pat. The routers he mentioned are probably nicer. For a table I personally think the Hitachi a pretty good buy (if you're willing to modify it). It has more power than my Bosch 1617 (a router pat likes) and the DeWalts mentioned.
I had some problems with a rail/stile bit and talked with the vendor at a WW show. He said that some plunge routers had some flex that sometimes showed up when using these bits. He indicated that the M12V was one that may exibit this problem (before I told him which router I had). This particular vendor was a good customer service vendor and gave me replacement bits on the spot that he tested right there. I haven't had the problem since. But, I still wonder about his comments. I also wonder if the bits were the problem, the router, or if I forgot to lock the plunge lock or something. Since the new bits work, I'm assuming the router is OK. But, since he asked if I had a M12V specifically it has made me wonder.

Jay

[Andrew Ault]

I was in Pat's shop on Sunday...a visit to Router Mecca. I was there to purchase two offset bases for my Dewalt 621. I also purchased his system to set Porter-Cable collars in his base exactly concentric to the router collet (and bit). It is a fast and accurate system. His router bases are very thick and exude a quality of precision and good design. I've had a round base of his for years and it's been essential to my one and only router. Without such a base, the 621 is tippy when used freehand.

Pat has a large number of routers that he uses or has tested. He also has lots and lots of jigs and fixtures that he's made. It was fun to see the shop that has been in Fine Woodworking and in books.

In addition to being a really nice guy, he is a meticulous person (everything about his shop speaks to being methodical and thorough) and I am certain that he would only give an opinion on any given thing after thoroughly testing it or examining it in detail. He has devoted a good deal of time and energy to his craft and is very generous in sharing his knowledge.

Everyone needs to use what works for them and people value different things, so a given design will have people who like it and people that don't - that is something great about the diverse marketplace. I got the impression that he has strong opinions but that other people can hold other views based on their own values. When I asked questions, he was generous and patient sharing what he knew.

Anyway, he's a good resource for router knowledge and useful accessories. His website, www.patwarner.com (http://www.patwarner.com), offers a lot of useful information in addition to his products. I suggest that a person examine the website and make an independant judgement from many sources. After all, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting...and a router that one enjoys using and does a good job is the right one!

All the best from the southwest corner of the USA,
Andy

[Bernie Weishapl]

I agree that when I read the e-mail from Pat that he has strong opinions. I can see he likes De Walt a lot. I told him I have read reviews on the Hitachi M12V. 99% have been good. As Keith, Dave and Jay have said they have had good luck with them.

Pat did give me some good info on raised panel bits and rail & stile bits especially if using with 2 to 2.5 hp machines on how to get the most out of them.

Jay, what kind of mod's did you have to do to use the M12V on the router table?

Also is there a base plate that can be put on the M12V so you can use the PC template guides? I am going to get the PC dovetail unit. I have seen a couple of them used and got to use one of them myself and really like it a lot.

Thanks,
Bernie

[JayStPeter]

Jay, what kind of mod's did you have to do to use the M12V on the router table?



I cut the template guide mounting ears off to spin large bits. Since you appear concerned about using template guides, you might not want to do that. I did some other stuff including removing the plunge springs, but that's the most significant. See the M12V stuff at woodshopdemos.com, I did most of what John Lucas did.
BTW, my review was meant to be positive for table use and negative for handheld use. If using for both, I'd go with one of Pats recommendations. I found the Hitachi cumbersome to use handheld. It's heavy and not as stable as most of my other routers. Fine tuning bit depth is also not great. If you cut the template tabs off to make it useful in the table, you'll either have to use one of the universal base plates or make your own to use template guides.

Jay

[George Summers]

If you cut the template tabs off to make it useful in the table, you'll either have to use one of the universal base plates or make your own to use template guides.

Jay

Most router table inserts that come with removeable rings have one of the rings sized to fit the "PC" style template guides. If in the table, there is no need fo mounting the guides on the router itself, just in the insert ring.

George

[Bernie Weishapl]

Well I received a reply from Pat Warner about why he thought the M12V was a bad router. Here is his reply. The deal is that the M12V is the cheapest way to 3 HP on the router table.

The deal is that the M12V is the cheapest way to 3 HP on the router table.
That is why they're so popular. And 3 HP is essential for table use. What's
their problem? They run hot under load, bearings are low grade, collet a
compromise, adjusting hardware stamped and uncomfortable. Plunge stroke as rough and sloppy as it gets. Now there's no reason for me to go on.
These are popular, powerful, inexpensive, short duty, high value, clumsy tools. For the hobbiest who might use a router 2-4 hours a month they can be used indefinitely.

Just thought you might like to see his comments.

Keith hope this answers your question.

Bob, yes I realize he has a lot of knowledge and I have asked him a ton of questions. He has been kind and fast with his replies.

Bernie