Shaper

[John A langley]

Can anyone tell me about a beach shaper it is 2 h 3ph model number 300a biggest question is ,have any trouble putting a 5 h Single ph Motor on it

[Carroll Courtney]

Guessing that the reason going from a 3hp to a 5hp is because its what you have on hand.If not I don't see a benefit with the extra hp,unless you have a 1 1/4 spindle but then a 5hp still is not needed.Anyway the shaft may be a different size,so the pulley will need to be change.Either way that is one HD looking shaper,very nice

[John A langley]

Carroll it's a two horse now five horse works much better for shaping 3/4" panels but yes 3 hp would work

[jack forsberg]

not sure what the bearings are in the quill but i think that model is a light duty(3 hp max). 5 ponies and pushing it my do them bearings and spindle a disservice. is it an 1 1/4 spindle? secondly this machine would really benefit from a VFD giving you For and reverse plus speed control.

[Peter Quinn]

I don't know anything about that shaper, but have you seen the motor mounts? That should give you a better idea of what your dealing with. OWWM might be a good source for info. Do you know spindle size? If less than 1" I wouldn't bother putting 5 hP behind it. I used to raise 3/4" panels just fine one pass on a 3HP delta. Its possible its an older 2HP, which I've heard older electricians refer to as a "true 2" meaning its about the equivalent of a 3HP in todays over rated terms. My dewalt RAS from the 1940's is a "2HP" by name plate, but it draws close to 17A 220 which is similar to most 3HP motors today, and it cuts everything. My dad used to love to tell the guy at the pizzeria "Im really hungry today so can you cut my pizza into 10 slices instead of 8?" Well, a 16" pizza is the same amount of food no matter how many slices you cut, and 1A does the same amount of work roughly no matter what the marketing department likes to put on the tag. So If you are buying this thing, look at the amp draw, and maybe run some wood through it before retrofitting, that old motor may surprise you.....or it may make smoke and go boom, always a gamble

[John A langley]

Peter love your sense of humor theGuy wants to give me thatPlus some cash for a panel router old panel routerit won't cost me much pocket money

[John A langley]

Jack thanks with the size of the table I thought maybe 5 hp would be good I have a 5 hp PM I could live without it being 5 hp

[jack forsberg]

Jack thanks with the size of the table I thought maybe 5 hp would be good I have a 5 hp PM I could live without it being 5 hp the 27 is powermatics heavy duty can be had with a larger spindle still got 6200 bearing in it. when i say big bearing and spindle i am taking ABEC 7 oil lube like this one in my hand. I do believe that Moak did make a model with this type bearing but i am sure its larger than that one. I think the older Martin use this bearing as well but Dave or Joe would know. for induction motors HP is HP and its got a lot to do with motor power factor rating and the number of polls (rpm) to compare amp draw. 3 phase motors of the same hp and voltage draw less amp than there single phase capacitor start motors. think of them as the topping pete. Its the brush type motors (routers)that there overrating the HP on .
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/PHPbearing004_zpsa0e28a10.jpg

[Martin Wasner]

5hp is about the minimum needed to for panel raising. If you've already got a 5hp shaper, I'd do like Peter recommends and just try it out first and save the heavy hogging for the higher power machine.

Holy cows! That's a bearing!

[jack forsberg]

5hp is about the minimum needed to for panel raising. If you've already got a 5hp shaper, I'd do like Peter recommends and just try it out first and save the heavy hogging for the higher power machine.

Holy cows! That's a bearing!

if your running HSS you don't need 5 hp in fact the one with the bearing is only 4 hp and it has 9" under the nut. if your spinning large disks you need more hp but than you better have the bearings. I read a lot of guys are running to large and are going through bearings like there no tomorrow.

Whats the table opening on that machine?

[John A langley]

Jack I have no idea I haven't looked into it that close thanks for the response

[Mel Fulks]

I especially agree with the high speed comment ,and if you can use two steel knives ,instead of three , that helps too. It doesn't get mentioned enough that tooling should never have any UN NEEDED spacers underneath since that adds stress.

[Martin Wasner]

I use a three wing, carbide insert head. I don't remember the diameter, but it's pretty good sized. Doing a climb cut, full pass, my Model 27 groans pretty well. I should slow it down too, I'm running it at too high of an rpm. I'm sure that has a lot to do with it bogging down the shaper.

[Peter Quinn]

I use a three wing, carbide insert head. I don't remember the diameter, but it's pretty good sized. Doing a climb cut, full pass, my Model 27 groans pretty well. I should slow it down too, I'm running it at too high of an rpm. I'm sure that has a lot to do with it bogging down the shaper.


They only had two speeds as delivered, are you running a panel raiser at 10K? I've raised a lot of panels on a 27 and never hears one groan.

Jack, I know there is a formula to derive HP, and some motors are more efficient than others, but I see some chiwan tools calling themselves 3HP and drawing 12A 220V single phase.....??? Do they have a secret formula?

[Martin Wasner]

yep. 10k. It won't complain doing a normal cut, but doing a climb cut seems to work it harder for some reason.

[jack forsberg]

They only had two speeds as delivered, are you running a panel raiser at 10K? I've raised a lot of panels on a 27 and never hears one groan.

Jack, I know there is a formula to derive HP, and some motors are more efficient than others, but I see some chiwan tools calling themselves 3HP and drawing 12A 220V single phase.....??? Do they have a secret formula?
746 watts per hp is what i think your talking about but that's engineer paper figures, in real life you have to account for power factor(its stamped on the motor tag) to rate the efficacy and number of polls in the motor . Slow speed motors of the same hP draw more amps than 2 pool 3600 rpm motor by design. so the 746 watt draw is very general in term of hp and motor design has a fair bit to play in the over all machine draw. it not correct to say a motor has more hp or less based on this single metric.

the speeds of the 27 are in line with a 3/4" spindle moulder builds. are you feeding to fast?

[David Kumm]

Jack, that bearing is even bigger than Martin uses. Same as my Whitney. My concern with the smaller shaper isn't so much the motor, but the structure of the quill assembly. I don't know the machine, but in the shaper world it is all about the quill and as jack says, bearings. The 6311 that Jack showed were considered medium duty before machines started to get lighter. 6200 series were labeled light duty. Now you are lucky to find even 6200 series in a machine. Dave

[jack forsberg]

Jack, that bearing is even bigger than Martin uses. Same as my Whitney. My concern with the smaller shaper isn't so much the motor, but the structure of the quill assembly. I don't know the machine, but in the shaper world it is all about the quill and as jack says, bearings. The 6311 that Jack showed were considered medium duty before machines started to get lighter. 6200 series were labeled light duty. Now you are lucky to find even 6200 series in a machine. Dave

Dave the quill is sold from what i can see on the 27? the bearings have a 25mm bore so its smaller than 1 1/4". Could any with the 26 and 27 tells us what are the changes. they sure have made machine light Dave.


here is the medium duty quill in my Robinson with that bearing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7zbkqeeOTY

this one comes with a top support bearing arm.
http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m511/Phil_the_Joiner/Router%20Forums/SpindleMoulderBallBearingSteady_zps24cf9ab9.jpg


309111

[Paul Incognito]

John,
I have that exact machine with a 5 horse motor. If yours has a 3/4" spindle, I probably wouldn't bother switching out the motor.
For what it's worth, mine has a 1" spindle, and for panel raising, I would like a 1-1/4".
Hope this helps,
Paul

[Rick Thompson34]

My guess is that you won't be able to make the motor swap without at least modifying the mount and the pulley. The frame size on my Ekstrom Carlson 162 is a non-standard one and is specially balanced for the application. Not sure of the pulley setup on the Beach, but on the EC it's a pretty beefy pulley and would likely put some stress on a motor not designed for the task. Your results may vary, but that's my gut reaction based on knowledge of similar machines. If the current motor works fine, run it and take multiple passes if needed. If you need to do everything in one pass, hold out for a larger machine.

Rick

[Joe Calhoon]

the 27 is powermatics heavy duty can be had with a larger spindle still got 6200 bearing in it. when i say big bearing and spindle i am taking ABEC 7 oil lube like this one in my hand. I do believe that Moak did make a model with this type bearing but i am sure its larger than that one. I think the older Martin use this bearing as well but Dave or Joe would know. for induction motors HP is HP and its got a lot to do with motor power factor rating and the number of polls (rpm) to compare amp draw. 3 phase motors of the same hp and voltage draw less amp than there single phase capacitor start motors. think of them as the topping pete. Its the brush type motors (routers)that there overrating the HP on .
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/PHPbearing004_zpsa0e28a10.jpg
These are the two bearings from my T90. The Martin shaper bearings are the same. This is 15 year old vintage, not sure if older is the same.
Joe
309091

[Paul Incognito]

My guess is that you won't be able to make the motor swap without at least modifying the mount and the pulley. The frame size on my Ekstrom Carlson 162 is a non-standard one and is specially balanced for the application. Not sure of the pulley setup on the Beach, but on the EC it's a pretty beefy pulley and would likely put some stress on a motor not designed for the task. Your results may vary, but that's my gut reaction based on knowledge of similar machines. If the current motor works fine, run it and take multiple passes if needed. If you need to do everything in one pass, hold out for a larger machine.

Rick
That's pretty much how I see it as well.
If John is interested, I can take some pics of the motor and pulley on mine. The one he's looking at should be similar.
PI

[Jeff Duncan]

The Powermatic 26/27 were fine machines for light duty shaping. I personally think the 5 hp motor and 1-1/4" spindle on these machines was due to marketing and optimism as the machine isn't really robust enough to handle them fully.

This is a Powermatic bearing….the one sitting inside the Martin bearing that is! http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/bearing2.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/bearing2.jpg.html)

You can see one of these can handle the demands made on a 1-1/4" spindle and the other….not quite so much. I'm one of the guys who was overly optimistic with his 27 as Jack eluded to. I used to run a 4" corrugated head on occasion. Bearings lasted just over a year. All this to say that just swapping in a bigger spindle and/or motor does not make the machine more capable. All depends on what you have for bearings and quill assembly.

good luck,
JeffD

[jack forsberg]

The Powermatic 26/27 were fine machines for light duty shaping. I personally think the 5 hp motor and 1-1/4" spindle on these machines was due to marketing and optimism as the machine isn't really robust enough to handle them fully.

This is a Powermatic bearing….the one sitting inside the Martin bearing that is! http://i762.photobucket.com/albums/xx268/JDWoodworking/bearing2.jpg (http://s762.photobucket.com/user/JDWoodworking/media/bearing2.jpg.html)

You can see one of these can handle the demands made on a 1-1/4" spindle and the other….not quite so much. I'm one of the guys who was overly optimistic with his 27 as Jack eluded to. I used to run a 4" corrugated head on occasion. Bearings lasted just over a year. All this to say that just swapping in a bigger spindle and/or motor does not make the machine more capable. All depends on what you have for bearings and quill assembly.

good luck,
JeffD


Jeff that's a fine pic LOL. Its fair to say that the 6200 series do run faster with a lot more ease in lucubration. And at only $8 each there not costly to change. The ABEC 7 6212 bearings on the other hand can have some elaborate lubing systems and can cost some where between $300 to $700 a piece depending on the cage material and make. they also allow the top piece to be removed though and can last 50 years or longer if maintained under industrial conditions.

[David Kumm]

Those pictures are a great example of the changes made in today's machines. Not just the bearing size, but the type as well. As Jack said, Those big bearings needed to be precision, open and either brass or phenolic caged to handle the rpm and stress and not fail quickly. The machines were more expensive to produce, not only due to the bulk and heft, but because the lube systems needed to be engineered for the open bearings. Oil pumps and recirculating systems, or ways to sling the grease in and out of the bearing complicated life. The newer large shapers have decreased bearing size, even going to 6000 series to handle the rpm and still allow for a standard precision sealed bearing so there is no need for a lubrication system. The newer machines are way more user friendly, have lots of nice features, but you need to make sure the bearings are easy to get to because they will need replacing. Not so relevant when buying new for light use, but a big deal if you throw a 25 lb cutter on the machine.

Jeff had a great old Martin T21 that he sold for way less than the machine was worth (IMO) and less than a new PM 27 would go for. You can see the comparison. Dave

[Peter Quinn]

746 watts per hp is what i think your talking about but that's engineer paper figures, in real life you have to account for power factor(its stamped on the motor tag) to rate the efficacy and number of polls in the motor . Slow speed motors of the same hP draw more amps than 2 pool 3600 rpm motor by design. so the 746 watt draw is very general in term of hp and motor design has a fair bit to play in the over all machine draw. it not correct to say a motor has more hp or less based on this single metric.

the speeds of the 27 are in line with a 3/4" spindle moulder builds. are you feeding to fast?

Thats what I'm talking about Jack. There is a theoretical conversion factor, watts per HP, dictates the "maximum potential HP" output from a given input, then you deduct for friction, motor efficiency, etc. So at 220V the best you can hope for is roughly 5A makes 1HP....so your talking best case scenario you feed a motor 15A, you get 3HP....so how do some of these Chinese induction motors claim to produce 3 Hp but only draw 12A? Have they beat the laws of physics...do their engineers study harder than ours? Pretty sure they are just lying is my point, you can't do better than the theoretical maximum, you can only do worse, so knowing how many amps are going in does not alone tell you how many HP are coming out, agreed, but it does suggest the best you could hope for, and if a company claims they are doing better than that......I'm calling bull. And I could link to at least several manufacturers that claim their shapers are 3HP units....then you read the posted manual and it says they draw 12A. Sounds like they just call their 2HP shaper a 3HP shaper....guy goes to raise panels, machine wont do it easily, figures he needs to step up to a 5HP machine....which is probably only really a 3HP machine.....and so on. I like the Italian motors on my shapers because they don't mention HP at all, they just rate them by kilowatts. I was asked by my phase convertor manufacturer not only what kind of machine I was starting, but country of origin, when I told him Italy he told me to go over a size on the phase conversion as the Italian motors are over wound and a bit harder to start because of it, and that wasn't a bad thing, just a factor to be considered.

I don't have a chart in front of me, but I'm thinking 7K rpm's suggests around a 3 1/2"-5" 3 wing cutter, and I've used the PM 27 to to spin those plenty. Put in a 6" panel raiser, its moving a bit fast, put in a 4" molding head with 3/4" projection, its moving a bit fast. Spinning a 6" panel raiser at 10K is verging on cuckoo based on diameter and I doubt many are rated for that speed. My next consideration when choosing a speed or a machine is what is the total cut...height of cut, depth of cut. I'll raise 1" cabinet doors with 5/8" sticking all day long on a PM 27. Start making 2 1/4" entry doors with a 5/8" depth of cut, doesn't matter what the speed is, the machine can't handle it single pass long term, you can hear it struggling. DAMHIK. My approach is not technical based on charts but results based, machine should "sound" right, no chatter, shavings are chips not chunks or dust (too fast feed or too slow), no burning. You know what I'm saying, you listen to the machine, you feel its right.
I spent yesterday pushing 2 1/4" stiles through a SCMI T130, machine barely seemed to know it was working. The PM27 didn't have that 6K speed or 5K speed because it really wasn't built to push anything that needs to go that slow, the hole in the table and the speed range tells the whole story. The 1 1/4" bore gets you the larger diameter (4" versus 2 7/8" for 2/4" bore) which gets you the gentler exit angle, way better cuts, and the machine will do it within its total cut ability, but some users and shop owners seem to think they have more machine there then it really is. I wish they built them all like your robinson!

[David Kumm]

Peter, Italian motors are tightly wound because the machine manufacturers spec a small frame motor but still want the higher kw. I've got a shaper rated at 10 hp with a 90L frame and another rated at 9 hp with a 112 ( 132 would be more normal ). By packing the smaller frame, the guts of the machine can be lightened. Especially true with shapers as the motor usually rides up and down with the quill. Downside is the motors run hotter and bearings fail sooner. i've got lots of machines and have rewound more Italian motors than old US iron but I've got a good motor guy and at least I can lift a 112 to get fixed. I've got a T130 and it is a total pleasure to use but the build is nothing like the Martin T21 and the bearings ( 6011 ) are a total PITA to change. Dave

[jack forsberg]

Pete the motor amp thing is what is confusing i think to some and why Watts/KW are used to state draw/HP.Watt consumption is not voltage related where as amps to hp would have to name voltage to determine hp. Then there is single phase and 3 phase motors with the single phase motor drawing 1.732 times that of 3 phase motors per HP.

to illustrate these are the amp draws of 1 hp for single and 3 phase motors


3 phase motor
575 volts = 1 amps
480 volts = 1.27 amps
230 volts = 2.5 amps

single phase motor
230 volts 5 amps
115 volts 10 amps

One other thing to note is that the EU KW motor rating is input power where as HP rating is full load amps and out put rating.
so in the end hp rating in induction motors is not as good a measure of power and why the EU uses KW.

As to the 27 i think that there are lesser moulders out there and that one will do most everything you give it in today's terms. Today most used balanced heads that just drop on. I run my own knifes in the shop that may be out of balance a bit with some of the tooling old school that would not do well on the mid range spindle moulders with smaller bearings. the tenon heads are one. Not many runn this gear any more i would say so not to worry if the machine is up to it. The big window disks are well balanced and the tolling lighter too but even these machine have 50mm spindles. I like the old kit because it gives me my shop the capability to run the heaver heads that i get for nothing.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/WadkinJPtrenchinghead001_zps1a0f3299.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/WadkinJPtrenchinghead001_zps1a0f3299.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/WadkinJPtrenchinghead002_zpsf7836060.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/WadkinJPtrenchinghead002_zpsf7836060.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/WadkinJPtrenchinghead022_zps5e532c65.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/WadkinJPtrenchinghead022_zps5e532c65.jpg.html)

[Joe Calhoon]

Shapers are my favorite woodworking machines and we push them to the limits in our shop. I have experienced a lot of shapers in 40 years of woodworking, from an old iron Fay& Egan, Powermatic’s and Deltas, medium and heavy Italian, new Felder and late model German iron. I will say without a doubt that the new top end shapers and tooling are better in every respect than any vintage iron. The downside is the costs for most shops.
I advise a lot of people on this and IMHO depending on budget and product there are several ways to go.
I would not advise trying to beef up HP on a light duty machine. As mentioned the guts are the important part.

Old US and UK iron – these are solid machines with the biggest failing in the fence systems. They are lacking in many things including up to date safety devices and spindle speeds. I see these as good only for dedicated setups in shops. Some enjoy the time consuming restoration of these and that is fine but does not make sense for the shop in business or the hobby shops trying to maximize time for building projects. In the end with a lot of time spent on this you still have a rotary dial phone. I like a lot of old iron like band saws, drill presses, non sliding table saws and mortisers but not shapers.

Light duty Powermatic and Delta type- these work for most cabinet and furniture type work. Not great machines for versatility. I see them used in pro shops as dedicated cope and stick machines.

For pro shops or serious home shops on a budget it is hard to beat early 70s or so and up German and Italian shapers. These have decent fences and can be adapted to updated safety devices. They will run corrugated heads and also handle modern heads for architectural and heavy door work. We ran a lot of heavy Italian and never had problems with the motors as Dave mentions. A lot of these have sealed bearings and would agree that is a problem on shapers.

Another good option especially for the serious home shop or small pro shop are new shapers from Felder and Minimax. These are user friendly, can handle the larger diameter euro type cutters and have good safety devices along with other modern features. And there are some heavier new Italian and Felder machines that are reasonable in price also.

It’s not true that new top end shapers do not have good bearings. Just look at not only Martin but also Utis and Hofmann. They have very elaborate lube systems. Not sure where SCM and the new Panhans are in that respect. SCM has the direct drive router motor on the top end Invincible shaper that looks pretty interesting.
For the high price tag on these machines the buyer gets super accurate and repeatable fences, repeatable and fast feed systems, large heavy duty tenoning tables, quick change shafts of all types to compliment CNC routers and moulders, programmable settings, tilting forward and back and even 90 on the Hofmann, the ability to run any type head and much more.
I would guess there are only 50 or so shapers of this type sold in North America each year if even that many. Some to larger millwork and door shops, some to small established pro shops and surprisingly some to home shops of well to do hobbyist’s.

My opinion about shapers for what its worth.

Joe

[David Kumm]

Agree with everything you said, Joe. Didn't mean to imply that the top end was less than old. The T130 I speak of is considered commercial but SCMI makes two levels above that model. Those are pretty rare in this forum, as are Martin and Panhans. Hofmann is pretty much nonexistant here in US. The price point for a mid range Felder or MM is about 8-10K now and your machines must be close to double that. For those looking at shapers in the 3-7K range, the older high end used are a real bargain. People should not be afraid of Martin, SCMI, Casolin, Casadei, etc in that price range. The build allows them to be used fairly hard and still have as much or more life than new lesser machines. I'm an old iron guy but for shapers, I prefer the Euro for your reasons. Better fence, reversing, even sliding tables with good crosscut fences if you need them. A 4-5K T130 or 4-7K Martin still trump anything new for even close to those prices. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

True Dave,
At the worst with the late model Euro you might have to change bearings. I still think the grease bearings are the way to go for shapers. I wonder if SCM uses those on the top end ones. All my SCM were mid range.
I was just looking at some of my heads. I have a large diameter cope head that was really made for a tenoner. It weighs 55 lbs because of the extra knives where the tenon would normally be. We made 70 lift and slide doors for one job with that head on a shaper a couple years ago.

Joe

[David Kumm]

There are some pretty high tech greases available so the key is not having someone overload the bearing. There are precision phenolic cage shielded out there but they are expensive to replace as they are usually special order. Open with a fitting would be easier. Oil bath systems were complicated but if kept in working order, there was no way to overfill the bearing. Surprising how little excess oil or grease will heat up a high speed bearing. I seldom go higher than 6K on mine but 9-10K is available. 6300 bearings need to be precision to handle that rpm. Life is a trade off. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

I just listening.......:D

[jack forsberg]

Joe's post is on the money if your doing what joe's is doing. Me i like old because i can get good kit that will run this size tooling but what i have found is i am not going to buy that tolling because i'm not going to make just that product. I do find the US sharper fence to be lacking but the UK fence from old are very good with rings and Shaw guards false fence and so on. a little more set up but i am fine with that. I do like to pick up the out of date tooling and have fun with it but i don't have to run my jobs to pay for machines and tooling because that is not what i do.still i can do it if i want . 2 man shop here is all . I want the capacity the large ones bring and the cheap HSS tooling that can be had . I think that most on here would use the spindle moulder in the classic sense more than a machine to run the latest technology cutter heads that are is some cases $5000 a set or more .

My bearings are Grease Joe from the 50s and i agree i like grease better but the oil lubes system is very nice and i think its better suited to the 12000 to 24000 rpm spindles of the Pin routers. I know there not as good as what you have Joe but there one hell for stout that i will never ware out.

[Michael W. Clark]

I like shaper threads, especially seeing the commercia/heavy duty stuff. I got a Delta HD shaper with the 1-1/4" spindle. I don't intend to run big cutters but more so that if I upgrade in the future I don't have to re-buy tooling or use bushings now.

With respect to motors..Most US motors are specified by shaft output power (HP at the shaft = torque x RPM). The electrical input power follows and varies some from OEM to OEM. As a mechanical guy, it seems odd any electric motor would be rated by input power, but I don't doubt it. I guess I always thought they just rated them in KW to be metric, both HP and KW are units of power as Jack points out with the conversion.

Take any US motor and convert the HP rating to watts. Then take the FLA and voltage (also 1.732 factor for 3ph if appropriate) and calculate watts that way. Divide the two and you get an idea of the electro:mechanical efficiency. Power factor is another game and would not apply unless you are billed for it. Some commercial guys might get PF charges, but more common with larger industrials.

[David Kumm]

I just listening.......:D

Larry, you have one of the great older EU shapers made. You should post pictures. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry, you have one of the great older EU shapers made. You should post pictures. Dave

Here is a picture of the beast when I first got it home and was trying to figure out where to put it. That is a 9' garage door to give an idea of how big this thing is. It has two hoods that are what appears to be exact copies of older Martins. They are so close looking at the pics I am wondering if they bought the hoods from Martin. Weight is over 3000 pounds.

I had an old minimax saw all torn apart when this pic was taken, so that is what is in the foreground upside down if you are confused.

I do miss the tenoning table on the MiniMax I sold, and have had no luck finding one of the factory ones for the Unitronix. I may have to buy another shaper.....

I climb cut some tiger Maple with it today, old girl did a nice job. Biggest cutter I own is only ten pounds so I am not hurting it much. Still, a tenoning table would be nice.


http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t468/crookedtreejoinery/P1020400_zpsccr8jgvi.jpg (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/crookedtreejoinery/media/P1020400_zpsccr8jgvi.jpg.html)

[Rod Sheridan]

Thats what I'm talking about Jack. There is a theoretical conversion factor, watts per HP, dictates the "maximum potential HP" output from a given input, then you deduct for friction, motor efficiency, etc. So at 220V the best you can hope for is roughly 5A makes 1HP....so your talking best case scenario you feed a motor 15A, you get 3HP....!

Hi Peter, a high quality motor (high efficiency, high power factor) will be about 12 amperes at 240V single phase.

i'm not saying the motors you're talking about are high efficiency high power factor, however it's possible to have the lower line current with a good motor.

Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=jack forsberg;2390712]


One other thing to note is that the EU KW motor rating is input power where as HP rating is full load amps and out put rating.
so in the end hp rating in induction motors is not as good a measure of power and why the EU uses KW.

Jack, IEC motors are rated on output power, just like NEMA motors, the difference is that the IEC motors are specified in Kw as the HP isn't a metric unit......Regards, Rod.

[jack forsberg]

Here is a picture of the beast when I first got it home and was trying to figure out where to put it. That is a 9' garage door to give an idea of how big this thing is. It has two hoods that are what appears to be exact copies of older Martins. They are so close looking at the pics I am wondering if they bought the hoods from Martin. Weight is over 3000 pounds.

I had an old minimax saw all torn apart when this pic was taken, so that is what is in the foreground upside down if you are confused.

I do miss the tenoning table on the MiniMax I sold, and have had no luck finding one of the factory ones for the Unitronix. I may have to buy another shaper.....

I climb cut some tiger Maple with it today, old girl did a nice job. Biggest cutter I own is only ten pounds so I am not hurting it much. Still, a tenoning table would be nice.


http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t468/crookedtreejoinery/P1020400_zpsccr8jgvi.jpg (http://s1061.photobucket.com/user/crookedtreejoinery/media/P1020400_zpsccr8jgvi.jpg.html)
Larry those doubles are massive. My Robinson came in a double but i have never seen one in the wild.

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r754/woodworkforum/SGTampE_zpsddf2cd8a.jpg (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/woodworkforum/media/SGTampE_zpsddf2cd8a.jpg.html)


http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r754/woodworkforum/SGTampEcont_zpsee1fcbdf.jpg (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/woodworkforum/media/SGTampEcont_zpsee1fcbdf.jpg.html)

these cuts are form the 40s but Robinson and Wadkin made them well into the 80s As for fences and feeder i thought you would like to see some of the older ones that i have never seen a modern that compares too. i sure like that chip breaker one


http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r754/woodworkforum/FENCES_zpsfd1950c6.jpg (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/woodworkforum/media/FENCES_zpsfd1950c6.jpg.html)

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r754/woodworkforum/TA_zpsf1d31e50.jpg (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/woodworkforum/media/TA_zpsf1d31e50.jpg.html)

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r754/woodworkforum/NCTY_zpsb5b07d63.jpg (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/woodworkforum/media/NCTY_zpsb5b07d63.jpg.html)

[Michael W. Clark]

Just to re-enforce how large that shaper is of Larry's, Here is a picture of my Delta HD, 5 HP shaper. I belive Larry and I have the same feeder for reference.

309194

[Mel Fulks]

A place I worked in early 70s had a double that had been taken out of service and put in a storage area . Can't remember
the mfg. ,but the table was aprox 4x8. Never measured spindle diameter ,but it was obviously larger than 1 and1/4. A
manager told me it had been used to make burial caskets.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm a big fan of the re-circulating oil system some SCMI and Martin shapers use….or used to use. In some regards I think it's the best system in terms of engineering. Constant oil flow over the bearings ensures even, cool, lubrication. But then you get into shops with multiple employees using equipment and not necessarily taking care of it and bad things can happen. In my shop it's just me and occasionally one other employee…..who doesn't get to use the shaper anyway! So I'll take the re-circulating oil system every time. Not sure how the older oil bath machines work so can't speak to them.

In terms of spindle speed I don't go higher than about 8k rpm's. I don't have any tooling small enough to run at 10k! Something like an Innovator head at roughly 6" in diameter runs in the 4500 - 5k neighborhood. Sticking tooling a bit faster at 6500 - 8k. Just the sound of the spindle on my 8hp SCM getting up to 10k is a bit unnerving….sounds like it's getting ready to launch!!!:o

JeffD

[jack forsberg]

A place I worked in early 70s had a double that had been taken out of service and put in a storage area . Can't remember
the mfg. ,but the table was aprox 4x8. Never measured spindle diameter ,but it was obviously larger than 1 and1/4. A
manager told me it had been used to make burial caskets.

Mel Rye out of the UK made a massive double spindle rotary shaper that you could do about 8 setups at once. spindle are larger than 1 1/4

309204


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNQZwMgRwDM

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe's post is on the money if your doing what joe's is doing. Me i like old because i can get good kit that will run this size tooling but what i have found is i am not going to buy that tolling because i'm not going to make just that product. I do find the US sharper fence to be lacking but the UK fence from old are very good with rings and Shaw guards false fence and so on. a little more set up but i am fine with that. I do like to pick up the out of date tooling and have fun with it but i don't have to run my jobs to pay for machines and tooling because that is not what i do.still i can do it if i want . 2 man shop here is all . I want the capacity the large ones bring and the cheap HSS tooling that can be had . I think that most on here would use the spindle moulder in the classic sense more than a machine to run the latest technology cutter heads that are is some cases $5000 a set or more .


Hi Jack,
FYI I have been a 2 man shop for several years. Down from a 3 and 4 man years past. I am scaling down a little but still love the work. Just want to make more time for skiing, teaching classes and other things I like.

Every job we do is one off using different combinations of tooling. Modern tooling can be very flexible. I was real tired of working long hours in the shop about 15 years ago and modeled my setup after Euro shops I have visited. My only regret is not doing it sooner.
Not the latest technology either. If you want to see that visit a shop running a Weinig Conturex with hydro tooling.

Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

Larry those doubles are massive. My Robinson came in a double but i have never seen one in the wild.



these cuts are form the 40s but Robinson and Wadkin made them well into the 80s As for fences and feeder i thought you would like to see some of the older ones that i have never seen a modern that compares too. i sure like that chip breaker one



Jack,
those are interesting for sure. Most of our curve work and outside fence work is short run. I have found some of the Aigner devices are good for this and setup quickly. All our curve work is one off and I try to keep templates simple and safe. We normally use the feeder with one or two wheels for curves.
309219309220
This is the pressure device we use for outside fences.
309221
Last fall we did a window job all curved and angled. Every window different and not true radius. Instead of the normal curve lamination we did brick laid and shaped to template with a 5" high Tersa head.

309222309223309224309225

All pictures from my shop.
Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

Mel Rye out of the UK made a massive double spindle rotary shaper that you could do about 8 setups at once. spindle are larger than 1 1/4

Jack,
I looked into those Rye shapers in the the early 80s. At that time we were building Victorian doors with a lot of curve parts. The US had a similar machines but at the time the A&B rotary shaper was the favored machine for this. The problem with these machines was you needed a lot of volume to make them pay. I think now they are not used much because even the large mfgs build small batches. And probably CNC routers better for this.
Joe

[Martin Wasner]

There was three Northfield shapers on an auction site early this year, and about 5 hours away. A 1955, a 1956, and a 1965. The three sold for $1200. I didn't see the auction until the day after it ended. Grrr.

[Larry Edgerton]

Jack, I'd like to have one of those chipbreaker fences to play with. If I had ran across one somewhere I wouldn't have known what it was.

That square cutterblock on the other hand maybe not so much....:eek:

Thanks for those pics.

I keep looking at this one: http://www.machineryassociates.com/Unitronix-DFFA-Machine-For-Sale-7348

I would have thought the price was too high until I bought the double I have. Now it does not look so bad. I only paid $750 for the double.:p

Larry

[Larry Edgerton]

Joe, I look around the pictures of your shop with envy. Just filled with dream machines......

More so I envy the customer base that allows you to get the kind of work that you get. I choose to live where I do and I like it but at times I look at the work people in more affluent areas get and wish I could get some of that work. Occasionally I will do a job at a loss just to stretch my abilities and do what I really want to do. That is when it pays for a customer to be nice.;)

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, I look around the pictures of your shop with envy. Just filled with dream machines......

More so I envy the customer base that allows you to get the kind of work that you get. I choose to live where I do and I like it but at times I look at the work people in more affluent areas get and wish I could get some of that work. Occasionally I will do a job at a loss just to stretch my abilities and do what I really want to do. That is when it pays for a customer to be nice.;)

Hi Larry,
things were good here for a few years then the downturn. It is picking up again but I have lost the will to go after the big jobs. I always envied the prices shops get on both coasts but then again it costs more to live and operate in those places. And also the high end comes with a lot of demanding customers. No easy answers.

That Unitronix sliding shaper looks pretty good. The heavy sliders like that don't come up very often used. Is it mounted on the back of the shaper and the fence swivels around?

Joe

[Larry Edgerton]

The fences on the Uni's are mounted on a big ring that can be turned. I had mine set up a while ago with fences facing the ends so I did not have to change setups on two operations, and would just swing the feeder from one to the other. My table is 44" wide so still lots of support, especially on a bit of a bias. So in the case of the one listed, and it looks like it is set up the same as mine, you can just rotate the whole fence that is mounted to a 18" ring to use it either way and there is a dovetail lock that pulls it down. The provision for the tenoning table on mine is on the end, and I have been looking, but there is a snowball in Hades chance of finding one.

We got hit here earlier than you guys, the auto industry being the catalyst for the recession, and it has never quite come back. Like you I am getting older and just do not want to play the game any more. My main focus was residential construction, tied heavily to auto execs, and they just flat shut down. We now have more contractors here than we ever have, and less work. So every one is working for nothing. I laid my crews off about six years ago and have been working alone on smaller projects. I have slashed my running costs by 75% and am trying to keep busy in the shop, that is now at my house, doing furniture and whatever odd scary things others do not want to tackle.

And I agree about the coasts thing, easily double prices of what I am able to pull off, and I am one of the more expensive people around here. I have kept track and my running costs quadrupled at the old shop in twenty years, but my rates never changed. So I sold it and moved on.

Back to work.... Have a good day buddy.

Larry

[jack forsberg]

The fences on the Uni's are mounted on a big ring that can be turned. I had mine set up a while ago with fences facing the ends so I did not have to change setups on two operations, and would just swing the feeder from one to the other. My table is 44" wide so still lots of support, especially on a bit of a bias. So in the case of the one listed, and it looks like it is set up the same as mine, you can just rotate the whole fence that is mounted to a 18" ring to use it either way and there is a dovetail lock that pulls it down. The provision for the tenoning table on mine is on the end, and I have been looking, but there is a snowball in Hades chance of finding one.

We got hit here earlier than you guys, the auto industry being the catalyst for the recession, and it has never quite come back. Like you I am getting older and just do not want to play the game any more. My main focus was residential construction, tied heavily to auto execs, and they just flat shut down. We now have more contractors here than we ever have, and less work. So every one is working for nothing. I laid my crews off about six years ago and have been working alone on smaller projects. I have slashed my running costs by 75% and am trying to keep busy in the shop, that is now at my house, doing furniture and whatever odd scary things others do not want to tackle.

And I agree about the coasts thing, easily double prices of what I am able to pull off, and I am one of the more expensive people around here. I have kept track and my running costs quadrupled at the old shop in twenty years, but my rates never changed. So I sold it and moved on.

Back to work.... Have a good day buddy.

Larry

Boy Larry that sounds like me to a tee. still i am tiring to keep a stiff upper lip. work form a home shop my self.

[David Kumm]

I'm a big fan or Unitronix ( Fortis, Zefam, Kirchfeld, EMA ) as every machine I've seen were Martin like- but with better manuals. Larry was kind enough to send me a manual for his shapers and I use it for its similarity to my T21. If i were in the market for a great 4K shaper, the Uni listed would be in the finals. Dave

[Jeff Duncan]

Boy Larry that sounds like me to a tee. still i am tiring to keep a stiff upper lip. work form a home shop my self.


Your in good shape then…..at least a whole lot better than renting space at roughly $10 a square foot! Good to be on the coast and I'd never leave, can't imagine not jumping in the sea on the weekends every summer! but you guys in the middle get the benefit of paying next to nothing for property. Can't have it both ways I guess:D

[jack forsberg]

Your in good shape then…..at least a whole lot better than renting space at roughly $10 a square foot! Good to be on the coast and I'd never leave, can't imagine not jumping in the sea on the weekends every summer! but you guys in the middle get the benefit of paying next to nothing for property. Can't have it both ways I guess:D
Jeff i went through the 80s and that's when i said i had to build my own shop. I only have about 2500 sf but its in 3 buildings but i do have a some land and space out side. Boston is pricey but there are sure less costly place to live in Canada than the capital city of Ottawa. I am the popper in my area.

[Joe Calhoon]

I never rented. That kept me from acquiring any good machines till I was in business for 15 or so years. Looking back I think it was a good thing. I realize in these times it is much tougher to get financing.
Joe

[Peter Quinn]

Connecticut is fun too for small businesses. The state doesn't want to kill you with taxes, just take you very very close. You setup an LLC, pay everybody and their brother for the privalage, then pay your attorney, think it's over, then the state sends you a bill for @$600....with a Welcome to Connecticut letter. We know you haven't made your first penny yet, but thanks for setting up a business in our state, now pay up. Hey, I though I just did? And when you start making money we'd like that too....and when you die and leave the business to your kids, we'd like half too. If I were a corporation they would bend over, give me free taxes for 10 years, maybe build me a building. I keep hearing small business is the engine of growth, and I keep hearing growth in my state is flat to negative, and the state keeps scratching its head as to why. On the bright side when the finance types make big money they get out of that nasty city and set up a place in CT, so there is some high end work for those who can stand the pain imparted by the minions of these rich folk....designers, architects, project managers, etc. Not all roses dealing with them. This is why I'm an employee with a home shop for side work, I can flank or right depending on which way the wind blows. The ocean is nice though.

[Larry Edgerton]

Just so you guys know.....

Michigan has more miles of coastline than any other state with the exception of Alaska. We have 3000 more inland lakes than Minnesota if counted the same way. No shortage of water here, part of the reason I kept coming back here.

Oh, none of the stuff in the Great Lakes will kill you.........:D

[jack forsberg]

Connecticut is fun too for small businesses. The state doesn't want to kill you with taxes, just take you very very close. You setup an LLC, pay everybody and their brother for the privalage, then pay your attorney, think it's over, then the state sends you a bill for @$600....with a Welcome to Connecticut letter. We know you haven't made your first penny yet, but thanks for setting up a business in our state, now pay up. Hey, I though I just did? And when you start making money we'd like that too....and when you die and leave the business to your kids, we'd like half too. If I were a corporation they would bend over, give me free taxes for 10 years, maybe build me a building. I keep hearing small business is the engine of growth, and I keep hearing growth in my state is flat to negative, and the state keeps scratching its head as to why. On the bright side when the finance types make big money they get out of that nasty city and set up a place in CT, so there is some high end work for those who can stand the pain imparted by the minions of these rich folk....designers, architects, project managers, etc. Not all roses dealing with them. This is why I'm an employee with a home shop for side work, I can flank or right depending on which way the wind blows. The ocean is nice though.


For about 10 years now i do only my work. What i mean is i only do my designs. I don't want anyone between be and the client and will not work any other way for high style contracts no matter what caret they wave in front of me. I gave up the big money working for the top designers and architects and fixing all there problems. What i found was no matter how good a job you did for them when someone asked who did the job my name never came up. it was always the designers. For some reason the rich hold them in a higher regard than people who work with there hands. I am just recovering from the loss of work that if i had kept it up would have been burnt out and very dissatisfied. Its nice to know that when i get work now its because they see my designs and so i get to work in my style. I do work with my clients with the design but i am given the respect that was lacking working for the professionals.

[Larry Edgerton]

The other thing about designers that sticks in my craw is that they are always telling you your prices are too high, then you find that they tripled your quote. You get a bad reputation for cost without any of the profit.

I too have kicked designers to the curb, no talent hacks with a gift to gab and little else, certainly very little integrity. And...... I too am paying that price, but work is getting a bit better. This winter I just got by, but I just got by in my shop at home, and that is important for my long term goal. No site work in the winter!

I have been getting some design and build work from a couple of architects, and they seem to be much easier to deal with than the designers. So far they have not tried to beat me up on price, but then I am keeping those a touch low just to get that angle developed. Although I am starting to finally start a website, I do not want to spend a lot of time trying to bring work in, I would rather it just came to me because of my previous work. I tried advertising 25 years ago when I had a cabinet shop and did not like what it brought me, "Can you do this for that same price as Lowes?" and people just curious and wanting a design. Several times I dropped in to see what happened to designs I had let out only to see my design in their house done by someone cheaper, [smoke rolling!]

My next job is a conference table for an architects meeting room, and she insisted that it be my design, not hers. Designing stuff for an architect is like making shoes for a cobbler, but she has one of my tables in her house so she must be happy.

Overall, these days, its a tough business. I could not do it if I had to buy the machinery I have now in this business climate. If I had a son [3 girls] I would want him to get into something else, at least if he was going to stay in this area. But, no sons, so when I kick the bucket it will be a hell of an auction.:D

I'm too old and too invested to change, and I do like to build beautiful things, but if I when then what I know now, well...........

[Bradley Gray]

I am definitely in the no more designers no more employees camp. I would be in a bind if I had to pay rent . Utilities and taxes are plenty. Thank God for referrals.

[Larry Edgerton]

A little off of where we have been going, but as we are all pros here I wanted to run an idea by you guys for a tenoning fixture for my Uni. I have a house full of doors coming up and although I could get it done without I would like to buy a tenoning head and use the shaper.

Ok, I have 17" from the center of the spindle to the edge of the table. I have a 2'x1' piece of 1" thick aluminum. The shaper has a slot, and its an odd size so I will have to have a slide machined out and that will be fastened to the aluminum at the proper distance according to whatever head I end up with. My original thought was bearings let into the aluminum on all four corners but I think for a proof of concept I will try it with HMWP as I have a lot of that around.

OK, here is the thing I am not sure about. I have that killer magnet that tried to take my finger off, and my plan was to mount that on the bottom of the aluminum about 1/16" off of the table close to the end where the cutter is to help keep that end consistent at the cutter head as I will not have an outrigger. Largest parts would be about 36" long and 2-3" thick. I have some air cylinders for holding the work piece in place, but my real question is how the magnet will affect the glide, and if it will give enough force to hold the sled down. This magnet would pick up a Delta DJ20, so it is strong, but I would not be using the whole thing.

Thoughts?

Thanks, Larry

[Peter Quinn]

Wow, Jack and Larry, your comments really resinate with me, and I'm some how comforted that it isn't only my area that has this problem. Anytime a relationship is so one sided it tends to engender negative feelings on the short end of the stick. Some of them are more clear and honest than they probably should be....ie "I need you to charge less, because I'm going to triple your price so I can get paid what I want, and my customer wont pay that much, so you need to work for peanuts..." I can remember a conversation with one "designer" to that effect, and my response was basically "Say you go down to the Mercedes dealer with the down payment on a KIA, and just explain to them you would like a mercedes but really only want to pay for a KIA, but you are planning to buy a lot of Mercedes in the future so they should accept your offer...." Does that work? I can remember one thing I built and helped install where the "designer" aka smoozing hack....simply clipped a picture from a magazine, sold the concept to the client, comes to us (the manufacturer) make me this, but scale it to fit these dimensions.....and make it in walnut......solve all the real nuts and bolts design challenges, and its going in a $12 million dollar house but they only want to pay YOU $29.95 for a 16' long 10' high wall of stain grade book case/media cabinet.....though my commission is $10K....thats it. No drawings, no details, you guys figure it out, no complaints, I'll feed you a lot more work.......last job I recall ever doing for that one, owner finally decided more like that nobody needs.

More recently I built parts of a project that came through a "designer" aka really good fabric picker but not IMO much good at anything else, client paid $10K for the design then tried every angle possible to beat the cost of the cabinetry down. I could have saved them $10K and let my 6yr old daughter design the space, I remember laughing as I read the plans thinking I felt bad for the installers on this one, really poor design, not my thing aesthetically but more importantly not designed to be installed and the designer insisted his designs not be modified to actually work. Patted himself on the back about how good the desk he designed looked (original was so poorly designed we just changed it on the shop floor and never told anybody, client loved it). So we build as designed mostly, then due to scheduling conflicts and time constraints of the work I wind up becoming the installer.....I 'm a shop mechanic mostly and do my best to stay off site at all costs...couldn't wiggle out of this one. SO I am in the process with two coworkers of literally beating in this wall to wall floor to ceiling scribes on all sides following the slope of a dutch colonial roof line strangeness that the designer "insisted" terminate "cleanly" at the ceiling sans crown.....when the homeowner comes in and asks politely "wouldn't it have been easier to just keep it off the ceiling a bit and add a molding at the top like the rest of the house...thats what they did in the game room....." Me being the honest type and not so shy to step on toes as politely as a person like myself can enthusiastically states "Brilliant! I love the idea....in fact it was my idea on the shop floor first time I reviewed your designers plans, you should have been the designer on this, but the guy you paid a small fortune to "design" this has never used any tools beyond a mouse and a pencil, and certainly not his brain or a ruler, so he insisted we go straight to the ceiling with this against all logic. Really too late to change now....great ideas for next time though, please excuse us as we beat this into submission...."

I try to be dispassionate, I'm just a mechanic, I'm just an employee, but I'm never ever taking abuse for incompetence that isn't mine. I love Jacks integrity, and the work is fantastic, glad to see enough people see that and support it. I haven't figured out how to take that leap. There seems to be a wall between the clients and the makers, a wall of agents, and some will go so far as to insist on non disclosure in the contracts....oh if the average client figured out many shops are capable of better design regarding the wood parts and cabinetry than they have just paid a fortune, that would upset the apple cart.

Is this post still about shapers? Shapers I like, designers not so much.

[Larry Edgerton]

Here I was thinking that you had the best situation Peter, and now you go and blow that illusion. Dang!

There is one of the Ford family that is a builder of very high end homes not so far from here and I got wind he was looking for a shop forman. Thinking of you I almost went over to talk to him, but there is a certian amount of freedom working a small company by ones self, so I decided to give this switch to just shop work some more time. He is in the unique and enviable position of not needing any money, which he uses to weed out the ones he does not want to work for.

My shop is in the most awesome location, far, far away from the rich and the useless. Its 40 miles to the "Gold Coast" as its called, just far enough that they stay away from my shop. "Nestled on the edge of the Pigeon River Forest" is the way I make it sound like I am an excentric woodworker that lives close to the land, but in reality I just like being away from all of that pretentious posturing. My neighbors here are real people that won't turn me in if I decide to do something on my property. If they don't like it they will just say so.

I like working at home, I can duck in the house if I want. I just glued up something that I needed to leave alone for a bit, so I ducked in here to see how this conversation was going.
If I am sanding I can have my blues cranked right up without the neighbors complaining. And if the day is going really, really bad, there is always LaBatts Blue in the fridge and a good fishing river just behind the house!

[John A langley]

Did I start can worms ,picked up a lot about shapers. Thank you , about the designers I worked for two after those two experiences I refused to work for anymore , before 08 I had six contractors Iworked for I all but two

[Peter Quinn]

A little off of where we have been going, but as we are all pros here I wanted to run an idea by you guys for a tenoning fixture for my Uni. I have a house full of doors coming up and although I could get it done without I would like to buy a tenoning head and use the shaper.

Ok, I have 17" from the center of the spindle to the edge of the table. I have a 2'x1' piece of 1" thick aluminum. The shaper has a slot, and its an odd size so I will have to have a slide machined out and that will be fastened to the aluminum at the proper distance according to whatever head I end up with. My original thought was bearings let into the aluminum on all four corners but I think for a proof of concept I will try it with HMWP as I have a lot of that around.

OK, here is the thing I am not sure about. I have that killer magnet that tried to take my finger off, and my plan was to mount that on the bottom of the aluminum about 1/16" off of the table close to the end where the cutter is to help keep that end consistent at the cutter head as I will not have an outrigger. Largest parts would be about 36" long and 2-3" thick. I have some air cylinders for holding the work piece in place, but my real question is how the magnet will affect the glide, and if it will give enough force to hold the sled down. This magnet would pick up a Delta DJ20, so it is strong, but I would not be using the whole thing.

Thoughts?

Thanks, Larry


That sounds like an interesting idea. Passage doors? I'm half way through a small door job, entries, 2 1/4" thick 3/0 and 4/0 doors, some glass involved, big one is all panels with an arched transom, should be fun. I used to set up the slider on the T130, but Ive started using this really basic but large coping sled the foreman made some time back, its been reconjiggered at least a half dozen times, full of holes, works great. Just a piece of 20X40 birch ply with a stout fence front and back, a hand full of distance's, some PSA sand paper. It rides the fence, no slot at all. So basic it would never have occurred to me, the copes on this job are so accurate I wont need to wide belt at all...which is good because the 4/0 isn't going through a 38" wide belt! So I've moved into the keep it simple camp.

The aluminum plate sound great, really rigid over the length, bit more weight than plywood to cantilever the weight. Are you making integral tenons on the shaper? For that I can clearly see the advantage of the very serious jig. I'm curious to hear how the magnet aspect works to keep it down on the table. Disadvantage of the jig I'm using is its all on the user to push down and it can add up on the shoulders on a large job. I wonder if some of that UHMW PSA tape running perpendicular to the slot on the bottom of the sled might help reduce friction and minimize contact between steel and aluminum. Or a strip front and back let into a slot in the aluminum so just a 1/16" sticks down or so. So it sort of floats but has that strong tendency to stay down. SCMI and Panhans have those bolt down tables if you want to throw $1400 at the problem, nothing like a factory slider but connected to the table. I wonder if the aluminum could be held to an 80/20 fixture with linear bearings, with the 80/20 bolted to the table? If the magnet proves less than effective at hold down, maybe a mechanical set up with bearings to hold the aluminum plate? Ive wondered if some UHMH cut like a dovetail could be bolted to the iron table, then a sled with the negatives ridden over those so it slides but is held solid by the dovetail keys?

[Larry Edgerton]

Good thoughts Peter......

If I forget the miter slot I can use the back side of the shaper as the hood rotates 360 degrees and the back side has 26" from the spindle to the edge of the table. I will have to unbolt the power feed base, maybe, to get clearance, but then maybe not.

The plate is part of a jobsite crane I made for all those infernal houses on the sand dunes where they would not let me run the Skytrack. The dune police, Ahh! I'll go out and unbolt it tomorrow and do a test. Worst part is dealing with those scary magnets, but that part really has me curious. I planned on using 80/20 for the fence, have a nice piece of that around. I have the plastic, and I can mill it to any thickness I want in the planer, so I figure I'll mill it about 5/16 or a little heavier so the magnets are up off the table at least a sixteenth. One concern is that if I bolt the plastic to the aluminum that it will expand in the summer and bulge. I have no way to cut a dovetail in the aluminum, and no money right now to have it done, but I can deal with that later if it becomes an issue.

Thanks. I like this part of my job way better than actually making stuff anyway....

Larry