Powermatic 3 phase

[Michael Schleicher]

There is a Powermatic 66 5HP 3 phase table saw on Craig's List for $1100. It appears to be in good shape. Is it worth it? What do I look out for?

[Mike Schuch]

Do you have 3ph power? A VFD to run it on 1ph would be about $300 so you would need to add that to the price if you don't have 3ph power. 5hp is actually over kill on a 10" saw... absolutely nothing wrong with over kill though!

Does it come with a good fence? If it has a high end fence on it and is excellent shape I would think that around $1000 isn't outrageous. 3ph machines generally resell for less than 1ph machines do to the extra complexity of getting them to run in a home shop.

[Matt Day]

A Teco fm50 VFD will cost just over $200, not $300 unless prices changed in the past year.

Use the 3 phase as a bargaining chip, as it's less desirable to many as Mike points out. He also makes a point about the fence, that's key. I would expect a Beis fence.

Raise and lower the blade, angle it from one stop to the other,

Is there power to the saw so you can test it?

Any other accessories included?

[Michael Schleicher]

Mike, I'm building a new shop so I can put in the necessary power. It comes with a Beismeyer fence and I may keep my VerySuperCool fence.

[Michael Schleicher]

Matt,
There is power to be able to test it. The seller claims to have installed a new arbor and motor bearings recently. It does come with the Beismeye 53" fence.

[Matt Day]

Sounds like it could be a good saw for you then. Are you installing 3 phase? From what I hear that can be expensive and the cost from the electrical company is high. Have you considered an RPC instead of installing 3 phase? I'm sure you know more about it than I do though!

[Mike Schuch]

In most residential settings 3 phase power is not available or is very expensive. If you are building a shop in an industrial setting 3 phase power should be much easier to get. Either way a 3 phase motor generally lowers the price a machine can command.

If you are confident that the saw does have new bearings and the rest of the saw is in good shape and considering it has a Beismeyer fence $1000 sounds pretty reasonable. Powermatic 66's have been purchased for much less but once new bearings, a good fence and other repairs are added they end up costing in this neighborhood. It is not the deal of the century but the saw probably went for around $3k new. If you understand the 3 phase implications I would not steer you away from purchasing the saw.

[Martin Wasner]

5hp is actually over kill on a 10" saw...


Who ever told you that was pulling your leg.

Or you made a funny and I don't understand it.

[Keith Hankins]

Well, if the bearings are in good shape, and even if not, that can be fixed. You will like the 5hp. Great power and I love mine. Now for the 3 phase question. I would not sweat it. I have an American Rotary RPC, and they are great, and if you know any electrical you can do it yourself. They will walk you through it and if you can read a manual, its simple.

General rule, if you only plan on 1 3 phase tool, then a VFD could work but one to properly support 5hp will cost some serious money. If you will think you will have another 3ph tool, then get the rotary, and use it for all your tools. I put in a model with a 10hp baldor idler motor. Great tool and purs like a kitten. That model that will drive up to 7.5hp . Only thing I might do diff, is get a used 10hp idler motor instead of buying a new motor. However my total system is fully backed by AR.


3 phase tools generally are cheaper to get used and most old american iron will be 3 phase. Good stuff and its not rocket science to get it done. If you have ever wired a simple 220 circuit you can do a 3 phase circuit. If you don't feel comfortable around electricity, get an electrician.

Good luck.

[Rich Riddle]

The price is probably set a little high to allow for bargaining. Not many hobby users will be looking for three phase. Try to get it somewhere around $900. You won't go wrong at that price and will have a bit for the electrical expenses that will undoubtedly follow.

[jack forsberg]

single phase input VFD 5 HP(4 KW) is less than $200 now that there are CNC kits on E bay. And these are Vetor drives not the Junk FM 50 Volts/ Hzs drives. Its way cheaper to buy An invertor than a RPC and the power is way cleaner. There so easy to wire a monkey could do it. Times are a changing

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4KW-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-NEW-5HP-New-2-/260717651563

[Rich Riddle]

single phase input VFD 5 HP(4 KW) is less than $200 now that there are CNC kits on E bay. And these are Vetor drives not the Junk FM 50 Volts/ Hzs drives. Its way cheaper to buy An invertor than a RPC and the power is way cleaner. There so easy to wire a monkey could do it. Times are a changing

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4KW-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-NEW-5HP-New-2-/260717651563

Well some folks don't know how to correctly wire them. Lots of folks place a switch between the motor and the VFD without realizing the consequences. Glad to see lower prices, but would hate to have to make a warranty claim and send it back to China at $58 shipping each way.

[jack forsberg]

Well some folks don't know how to correctly wire them. Lots of folks place a switch between the motor and the VFD without realizing the consequences. Glad to see lower prices, but would hate to have to make a warranty claim and send it back to China at $58 shipping each way.


no problem placing a switch between the drive and motor there smart and will just show a fault. you just reset them or have the switch between the vfd and motor signal the control side of the VFD for no fault. these VFD will run more than one motor at a time too if sized proper.they can become a master or slave VFD to other VFDs and work to control machines with many motors with switches all going off and on while there powered up. I would not worry to much about blowing them up any more than a start cap for a single phase motor. They really are that cheap. power to the vfd from there to the motor and your done you can make it harder if you want and i do for fun. last i heard there an app to control them and with blue tooth. these ones have the removable key pads too so if you order a spare $15 pad(pad holds all the settings/parameters for the motor VFD control) you can pop in a pad and use one VDF for all the machines you want if sized right. Just because i am into old machine don't mean i don't know what new ones do.:cool::cool:

[Doug Ladendorf]

Michael, it's a good solid saw. The tilt and raise/lower mechanisms may not work well if it has been sitting a while and/or left with lots of sawdust. As long as nothing is broken in the trunnion assembly and gears that's just a matter of cleaning. Check for the extras like miter gauge, long cast iron extension wings, quality blades etc. You didn't mention vintage (or color which may be a hint) but I love my 1968 PM66 with the full width trunnions. You may well want to change bearings and belts so keep in mind the time involved.

Jack, with those VFD's are they like the JNEV vector drives? I've been warned away from those cheap ones and would be interested in your experience using them. Are there legible guides to programming them? (The serial typos in the listing are not inspiring faith!)

Doug

[jack forsberg]

Michael, it's a good solid saw. The tilt and raise/lower mechanisms may not work well if it has been sitting a while and/or left with lots of sawdust. As long as nothing is broken in the trunnion assembly and gears that's just a matter of cleaning. Check for the extras like miter gauge, long cast iron extension wings, quality blades etc. You didn't mention vintage (or color which may be a hint) but I love my 1968 PM66 with the full width trunnions. You may well want to change bearings and belts so keep in mind the time involved.

Jack, with those VFD's are they like the JNEV vector drives? I've been warned away from those cheap ones and would be interested in your experience using them. Are there legible guides to programming them? (The serial typos in the listing are not inspiring faith!)

Doug

Doug these are more like the 7300 cv but better . the JNEV is a soaped up FM 50 but is a vector drive.Yes there from china and the typos and tec support is not as good but if you have used the temco models there just the same and you find it easy. In fact parts from Factorymation

http://www.factorymation.com/

and support there is the same and free. some of the control thermals are in a different place but its all the same in terms of wiring. I'v wired in 5 of these and there just fine. I have people send me the control pad and i program it for them if there not up to learning or reading the typos. these drive are sold more in the EU and if you have not heard of them that is way. lots of you tube video out there on that make.

I am not sucked in to the warranty thing any more in this country or yours as you pay 3 time as much for the same drive and all vfds are made in china at least the ones woodworkers are using for phase conversion and speed control mentioned here and Temco for sure is not made in the US. I have 12 machine in the shop running on vfds form many of the makers and there all the same IMO.

if you can wire a light switch you can do this drive for phase conversion. VFD have come to the single phase side of the world and are just getting easier to use every day. its not rocket science its monkey play. If your one of those that needs there hand held pay the piper.

[Doug Ladendorf]

I need one for a 3HP cyclone. That would save me a good chunk of change that could be applied toward the small fortune needed for ducting. Appreciate the input.

Michael, sorry for the hijack. Buy the saw!

Doug
Mostly American Machines

[David Kumm]

jack, i looked at the vfd on ebay you linked to and am unclear as to whether it needs to be derated when running a single phase input. No input or output amps were stated. Dave

[jack forsberg]

jack, i looked at the vfd on ebay you linked to and am unclear as to whether it needs to be derated when running a single phase input. No input or output amps were stated. Dave


Big bright red letters Dave 4 KW


Technical Paramer

1.Inpute voltage:220±15%(we also stock 380V and 220V+/-15%,please contact us for item stock)

2.Output voltage:208-240VAC(analogous to input voltage)

3.Input Frequency:48-63HZ

4.Outpute Frequency:0-400HZ

5.Inpute phase:1 phase or 3 phase

6.Outpute phase:3phase

7.warranty:1 year

(we also stock 4KW 7A, 2.2KW 10A 220-250V, 3KW 220-250V and 380V modol, please contact us for stock )

we are running Karins 3 HP robinbison band saw on this one with no problem and Matt matt got the same drive for the pk . you can see the drive on the floor
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-3HP-VFD-DRIVE-INVERTER-RATTING-PERFECT-MOTOR-CALCULOUS-PID-ACTIVE-DEMAND-/300652886556


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ6N1DZhpUI&list=LLI6jpIs2zjN9DmVvK2ZAWXA& index=5
i would call that a Hard start Dave

[David Kumm]

I understand bright red, but some vfds are rated assuming three phase input and although they allow single phase, the limit on input amperage in effect derates the vfd to 60% meaning you need to upsize the unit. Generally 3 hp and less require no derating, just not sure of this one. Why I'm asking. Dave

[jack forsberg]

I understand bright red, but some vfds are rated assuming three phase input and although they allow single phase, the limit on input amperage in effect derates the vfd to 60% meaning you need to upsize the unit. Generally 3 hp and less require no derating, just not sure of this one. Why I'm asking. Dave
No derating Dave. we used a clip on meter and we getting full output from the drive. if the vfd was set below a 3 sec ramp up speed it pulled the breaker in the panel not the drive. 20 amp breaker for a 2.2 KW drive

these are the spindle kits they come from and you can talk to them if you want to check for your self.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/a-water-cooled-spindle-motor-2-2kw-with-a-VFD-inverter-controller-as-a-set-/251870060742?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aa4a020c6

if it makes you feel better the 10HP drive is only $390 but its very large and has a built in pot and aluminum heat sink. A very nice drive though.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-220V-VARIABLE-FREQUENCY-DRIVE-INVERTER-VFD-7-5KW-10HP-34A-/271462879875?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f3472d283

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAwMVgxMDAx/z/b7UAAOSwEppUTZ2d/$_57.JPG

[David Kumm]

pretty slick to get that much out of a $230 drive with shipping. The 10 hp is still cheap in comparison to what I paid used just a couple of years ago. Dave

[jack forsberg]

pretty slick to get that much out of a $230 drive with shipping. The 10 hp is still cheap in comparison to what I paid used just a couple of years ago. Dave

Dave the old derating thing is for the drives that were never meant to run on single but could. these are made for single phase and the refractors are sized proper. VFDs have come a live in the single phase market for pumps heating HVAC fans compressor you name it. there not old school any more.

[David Kumm]

Looks like the 10 hp you show has a 34 amp input so it should handle 7.5-10 hp three phase with single phase input and more with three phase input. I don't know the sine wave or vector thing but they look like a real value. Dave

[jack forsberg]

Looks like the 10 hp you show has a 34 amp input so it should handle 7.5-10 hp three phase with single phase input and more with three phase input. I don't know the sine wave or vector thing but they look like a real value. Dave

I thinks the 34 amps is just the conversion from 7.5 KW at 220 volts Dave so it out put amps 3 phase. I will try to find the manual on line for you. you can see that there is a typo on the 4KW drive it should be a 1 in front of the 7