Slab desk build

[Prashun Patel]

I'm making a slab desk for a friend. The desk will be 60" long x 30" wide.

There's nothing sophisticated about this design, but it's going to be fun, so I thought I'd share my process.

I purchased these 120"x21" walnut slabs from Horizon Lumber. perhaps all mills do this, but Pete takes care to air dry some of these slabs for several years before putting them through the kiln for only a short time at the end (I suppose to kill anything living in it).

I'm trying to do much of this by hand. I cross cut the two slabs about 64" and started surfacing one. This air dried lumber really makes hand planing a breeze. I was able to level the cupped top in about 30 minutes. This slab planes like butter.

I'm intentionally leaving the splits in tact. It's a bookmatched set and I'm trying to figure out whether to match them (which I usually do) or whether to bookmatch and flip the orientation 180degrees, so the splits are at opposite ends. I The nice thing about this second option is that it will keep the grain of both pieces orientated in the same direction.

C&C welcome. Thx for watching.

[mike mcilroy]

I love seeing those big slabs. I have yet to work with any but I will watch with interest. Its hard to find nice slabs in my area. Hopefully one day.

[Brian Holcombe]

Nice slabs!

What do you intend to do for the base on this one?

IMO, keep them bookmatched, that is the beauty of slab tables.

[Christopher Charles]

Oooohhh, those are nice!

My first inclination would be to book match, but... perhaps you can show pics once surfaced. I'd bet that surfacing won't be a big deal given the widths if you're doing by hand since the switch in direction will be fairly clear.

Looking forward to progress.

C

[Andrew Hughes]

Those are going to make a fine table,nice find Prashun.They look to be mostly Quarter and rift with a little bit of cathedral in the middle.Are they 5/4 they don't look very thick.Aj

[Jamie Buxton]

In my experience, book matching works well when you're going to be looking from a position that the mirror image is obvious -- for instance on a door. If your desk is in the usual position -- against a wall -- you're not often going to be looking at it from the end, where you'd be seeing the book match. So my advice is to not worry much about book matching the slabs. Turn 'em upside down, flip 'em end-for-end, play with the sapwood streaks, whatever. Just arrange them to be as beautiful as they can be.

[Prashun Patel]

Andrew, yes, they are mostly quartersawn. That's a blessing and a curse: one of these is right through the pith. The splits tell the story.
Thanks for that insight, Jamie. I hadn't thought about that. I tend to bookmatch too much. I'm feeling like a one-trick pony .

I've noticed on things with a lot of curl or depth, bookmatching isn't always a nice effect. The light just reflects differently and the curl doesn't mirror as stunningly as I might hope. It also makes planing near the seam a little more stressful.

I showed the pix to the recipient last night and as Murphy would have it, she replied, "I meant CHOCOLATE brown." I explained that the pix are washed out and walnut is a lot darker. Then she sent me a picture of an espresso stained dining table. I thought we were on the same page when I ordered these.

So, the most work will be managing expectations...

[Jamie Buxton]

.. espresso stained dining table.....


Eeew! Folks who have spent their lives shopping at Crate and Barrel or the like have no idea of the beauty of real wood. I'd start fighting that idea right now, not after you've built the whole table. I'd pick a few square feet of plank -- maybe an offcut, or maybe a part you'll actually use. (If it is a part you'll actually use, just plan on sanding and refinishing it when you do the whole table.) I'd do the full finish job on it, and show it to her. Present it as "the finish", as contrasted to "is this okay, or do you really want me to stain it expresso?" (Me, if she insists on opaque stain, I'd quit the job, and use the wood for somebody who deserves it. Close rant.)

[Brian Holcombe]

You can use some dark tung oil and it will darken the slab slightly, then finish over it like you normally would (assuming oil finish).

I will mirror Jamie's sentiment, but to some extend the average consumer is so far divorced from the process at this level that it requires the craftsman to educate them on how their preferences will have to differ if they should chose such a product.

[Prashun Patel]

Men after my own heart!

I'm not quitting. I'll give her the option to not purchase after it's finished. In fact, I'd probably sell it for more to someone else if she drops out. But I think she's going to be happy.

I plan to topcoat with Waterlox OSF, which will make it fairly dark.

I'm definitely going to submit a finished offcut for approval. If she dislikes this, I may experiment with some Transtint. As it so happens I have a little extra Black Walnut Transtint that will work. I'm not - for the life of me - going to go the full espresso route. I've done that on one too many birch, beech, and sycamore tables...Walnut deserves a little more respect ;)

[John Vernier]

I've been experimenting with Transtint dye on walnut a bit lately, and I'm generally satisfied with the result. George Nakashima might not approve, but the clarity of the figure and some of the complexity of the color of the wood remains, and it is infinitely superior to any commercial espresso glop. If a customer, given the comparison to choose from, still wants to go with the espresso, you might as well build with alder and save your good wood. OTOH, a customer who is pleased with a rich, naturally finished walnut might still be distressed as the walnut pales over time, which it always will. That is why so much commercial walnut furniture is dyed as a matter of course.

[Prashun Patel]

I finished flattening the first slab reasonably well. I only received these 2 days ago, so I have to let them acclimate a little while. That's the nice thing about handplaning. It takes so long I can acclimate WHILE I prep.

I'm prepping at this stage just to allow me to arrange the boards so I can rough trim them. I wouldn't have even flattened so much yet if it weren't so darn fun. Just one more stroke! I couldn't resist taking a block plane over the whole surface and removing all my pesky track marks. I love this hobby too much to ever make any real money in it. I just spend too much time on every little detail, including staring.

There's some really nice curl in here. I didn't count on that. I didn't count on them being so straight grained. Can't wait to get the other one cleaned up a little so I can start trimming.

Darn white balance on the iphone!!

I really don't want to dye this at all. It just doesn't need it.

[Jebediah Eckert]

I'm making a slab desk for a friend.

Friends don't let friends dye walnut slabs espresso........

[Prashun Patel]

I've been putting some effort into selling things this year. The pipeline is fairly easy to fill. It's difficult to fill it PROFITABLY, though :(

I'm only trying to earn enough for tools.

What I'm finding is that people tend to say, "I'm in your hands" when you start, but I end up being in their's once I get started.

Commissions aren't as glamorous as I thought. Good thing I'm not relying on this for primary income. I would have been out of business..

[John TenEyck]

Prashun, those slabs look pretty nice. The cracks don't thrill me but I know many like and even celebrate them. With the right design they will work well. I, too, am interested in what you have in mind for the base.

I wouldn't shy away from dying it. I'm not saying you should make it espresso colored, but I've found that Transtint really helps deepen the figure, well beyond what BLO and varnish alone will do. Try some on your scrap and see for yourself. I think you might be pleasantly surprised, impressed even.

As for enjoying hand planing those slabs - no wonder you can't make any money. I'd be using a router sled. Unless you have "a name" hand tools = hungry. Flat is flat and customers don't care how you got there. But if you don't have to eat from it (me either, fortunately) you are entitled to work any way that pleases you most.

Look forward to seeing more.

John

[Travis Bochenek]

beautiful slabs! I can say that I share you hand planing addiction

[Prashun Patel]

John,
LMK how you'd handle the dyeing.

I have a love hate relationship with my router sled. It's tricky for me to set up perfectly, and I still require clean up for all the track marks. My jack and jointer planes are fast workers on easy wood like this walnut. More importantly, there's less thought; just go at it, and check, and go at it some more.

I'm more suited to the nibble and sneak up than measure twice, cut once.

[mike mcilroy]

There's some really nice curl in here.

After seeing your past projects and then hearing about curly walnut; if the customer doesn't like the natural preview you give I would find some other walnut or even HD poplar , "espresso" it up and see what they think, maybe they don't have a clue and you could save that beautiful wood for someone that will appreciate it.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've been putting some effort into selling things this year. The pipeline is fairly easy to fill. It's difficult to fill it PROFITABLY, though :(

I'm only trying to earn enough for tools.

What I'm finding is that people tend to say, "I'm in your hands" when you start, but I end up being in their's once I get started.

Commissions aren't as glamorous as I thought. Good thing I'm not relying on this for primary income. I would have been out of business..

Imo, I think you have to set yourself apart.

If you take a look at people who have deviated from the standard you have basically a very small group carving out names for themselves and people are still going to spend the biggest money at the most recognisable names because they have history.

The most interesting deviation IMO would have to be Chris Hall's Ming table, it is a 'slab' table in that it uses bookmatched bubinga slabs, but he does not do live edge or anything of that sort.

The customer could potentially care how the table gets flat if you allow them to understand the purpose for taking the approach that you are taking, the history behind it and the reason why it is unique. A hand planned finish is not an easy task to accomplish and that alone is worth something to a consumer in my opinion.

When it comes to live edge type slab tables you're going to have to create your own bases and they're going to have to be architecturally interesting and also unique.

Now how many people are turning out slab tables by hand with an architecturally interesting base...not many because it's a much rarer group.

[Pat Barry]

Andrew, yes, they are mostly quartersawn. That's a blessing and a curse: one of these is right through the pith. The splits tell the story.
Thanks for that insight, Jamie. I hadn't thought about that. I tend to bookmatch too much. I'm feeling like a one-trick pony .

I've noticed on things with a lot of curl or depth, bookmatching isn't always a nice effect. The light just reflects differently and the curl doesn't mirror as stunningly as I might hope. It also makes planing near the seam a little more stressful.

I showed the pix to the recipient last night and as Murphy would have it, she replied, "I meant CHOCOLATE brown." I explained that the pix are washed out and walnut is a lot darker. Then she sent me a picture of an espresso stained dining table. I thought we were on the same page when I ordered these.

So, the most work will be managing expectations...
Maybe time to get some new slabs more suitable for espresso and save these beauties where they can really be appreciated

[Prashun Patel]

Brian, I'm shy to show you the base she's picked. It's just two slabs (18" wide) joined by an upper stretcher. Something like this.

However, she is partial to a standing desk, so I'm uncertain how monolithic this may look.

I'm looking at this as a challenge though. I might be able to do something subtly creative where the stretcher meets the legs. I'm also thinking to split one side near the bottom to mimic the split on the top.

I suggested trapezoidal sides (tapering narrower to the floor) , but I'm kind of glad she voted against that. I mean, I feel like most of these tables are poor Nakashima knockoffs as it is.

Started work on the 2nd slab this morning. Gotta say, My old Bailey jack has a special place in my heart. It still has the original blade, and I can't even remember how I obtained it. The screws don't quite sit well, so the handle jiggles loose frequently, but he just works so reliably. One thing I really love (ironically) is that the mouth does not eject shavings as efficiently as my LA jointer and LA jacks do. This means when I'm doing the messy scrub work - especially across the width - the chips just collect in the cavity above the mouth. After about 5 strokes, I just empty it into a drum next to the bench. It keeps things so neat and tidy (relatively speaking), and adds a nice rhythm to my work. It keeps me from fatiguing and makes me think and assess more frequently than I probably would.

Anyway, these drums of spent shavings are a thing of beauty to me. I'll fill probably 4 of these.

[John TenEyck]

Prashun, there's no magic to what I've done dying walnut. Sand to 320 grit, raise the grain, knock off the whiskers, and then flood on whatever color Transtint you like. I've never had problems with walnut blotching so this is the process I use. After it dries I topcoat with whatever finish I like. In your case, you could go directly to your Waterlox. Try it on some scrap and see what you think. To me, the depth is comparable to BLO on walnut but you can adjust the color to anything you want, with control.

John

[Sam Murdoch]

I've been putting some effort into selling things this year. The pipeline is fairly easy to fill. It's difficult to fill it PROFITABLY, though :(

I'm only trying to earn enough for tools.

What I'm finding is that people tend to say, "I'm in your hands" when you start, but I end up being in their's once I get started.

Commissions aren't as glamorous as I thought. Good thing I'm not relying on this for primary income. I would have been out of business..

I do agree working to client's expectations - often very different from real world possibilities - make profitability tenuous. Working for friends who are likely also expecting a "friend discount" only adds to the sacrifice to your craft. Good luck with that. You have some beautiful stock and as we have all seen, you are more than up to the challenge. Your craftsmanship/art should not be subjected to catalog shopper mentality. I hope this is a really good friend.

+1 to transtint dyes - allows you to direct the color to whatever level and will be less expensive than multiple trips to Starbucks :)

[Brian Holcombe]

IMO, I wouldnt encourage a split in the legs simply to repair it.

Keep in mind, and hopefully this will help to inspire thought; The joining of slab table to an architectural base is similar to the effect of utilizing 'peeled bark' beams in timberframe, and quite frankly thats what I expect inspired the early slab tables.

The rustic element of the peeled post is joined very gracefully into an otherwise very rational structure. In temple carpentry it may be a single beam like this or a handful of similar beams which work in this fashion. It is a fine dance that the carpenter performs as he incorporates these elements into the structure.

I think you may find that the stretcher must be lowered from the top to create a fully secure base. A half lap joint along the top of the base will be fighting a great deal of leverage and will loosen over time. You'll likely find you need to use a combination of both a stretcher at the top and away from the top. Infact I would use two across the top and half lap battens into them.

You can also tenon the top of those legs and that will have an impact as well.

Working with friends also allows you to request greater artistic license. I take on 'friend projects' if I'm allowed the completely stretch my wings in everything from material selection to how it sits in the room.....like a sort of unpaid Dictator of Aesthetic.

[Prashun Patel]

Got a little workout at lunch today.

[Brian Holcombe]

Coming along nicely!

Anyone who has not seen what a heavy cambered jack plane can do should take a close look at this.

[Brian Holcombe]

If I'm prattling on about this too much just let me know;

Here is what I'm talking about when I say tenoning the base into the top;

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/2A34EB5D-0E16-411C-B307-4E5BB2E94174_zps76z8xt1p.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/2A34EB5D-0E16-411C-B307-4E5BB2E94174_zps76z8xt1p.jpg.html)

Those overcuts are where the tenons are.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c181/SpeedyGoomba/74355F33-A16B-4C0E-965B-570686BC3EAE_zpspqo6cpy3.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/SpeedyGoomba/media/74355F33-A16B-4C0E-965B-570686BC3EAE_zpspqo6cpy3.jpg.html)

[Jim Becker]

Such beautiful material...and a wonderful project. Tough one on the dye thing...managing the customer's expectations vs what is "woodworker's morality" is sometimes a challenge!

[Prashun Patel]

I did the unthinkable today.

When flattening the back sides, a crack opened up on one of the pieces the entire length of the board. These slabs are right through the pith; nice quartersawn grain on both sides, but right through the pith.

I am grateful this appeared early on. And honestly, I wasn't comfortable with the pith in there. I've "pithed" away many a turning blank that contained the pith. I didn't want to take a chance on this top cupping after the fact.

Further, the combined width was 42", but the finished desk is to be 30" wide.

So, I ripped these down the middle and trimmed out the pith from each board. I am down to about 38" now, and trying to figure out how to preserve that sap in the center. the boards bevel in the opposite directions, so preserving that line comes at the sacrifice of a full mating surface for gluing. I'll trim a little of each side until it feels about right.

On one hand I hate to do it; on the other, the whole thing will likely be more stable long term, will be easy to man-handle. Besides, the challenges are what make things fun, right? right? Please? Anyone? :(

[John TenEyck]

Well, better that it happened now. I was wondering how stable they were going to be when I ready in an early post that the slabs contained the pith. That's never good so I think it's actually a good thing that it happened while you can more easily deal with it. Personally, I'd rip the sapwood out of the middle, too, and leave it only at the outer edges. I know I might be in the minority in that regard - but that's my honest feedback. That allows you to glue up the top with full thickness at the joints and keeps the sapwood drama at the outer edges. But if you've just got to have that sapwood in the middle, how about leaving it ALL there, leave a gap between them, and join them from underneath? No bow ties, please. You could run big sliding dovetail cross members underneath to hold all the boards flat, and pin them near the center leaving whatever gap looks good. Sure, stuff will fall through unless you put a spline in. So use a spline if that's a problem.

John

[Brian Holcombe]

I'd leave a lot of the sap if you are building a split top....which would also be fantastic. People object to the notion of a split top, but rarely to the reality of it.

[mike mcilroy]

If you flip one of the halves of the top end for end would the bevels not match up better for gluing while losing less material or would this completly destroy the look with the grain match?

[Pat Barry]

Just me, but last thing I would want for a desk top is a big ol split down the center. I think that would be a huge annoyance. Even the live edge. Is this really what your customer wants?

[Brian Holcombe]

What's the practical disadvantage of a split top? I've built the split top and have not found a true disadvantage, but sometimes people offer the insight that things may fall through the split....this seems ridiculous as things can always fall somewhere.

Practical advantage on a desk is that you can run computer wiring down the split for chargers and the like.

[Prashun Patel]

I agree with you Brian. I think it's actually more functional with a split top, and certainly more respectful of the natural wood movement. Unfortunately, my customer wants it solid. So, solid it shall be. I have cut-offs from this project that will become a split top table for myself.

[Brian Holcombe]

I agree with you Brian. I think it's actually more functional with a split top, and certainly more respectful of the natural wood movement. Unfortunately, my customer wants it solid. So, solid it shall be. I have cut-offs from this project that will become a split top table for myself.

I'm sure it will be gorgeous in either case. I'm also looking forward to the one you build for yourself, much like the architect's own house, I'm sure it will include more of what people would consider to be risks.

[Bryan Wiesendahl]

I think a split top depends on how you use your computer. I have 3 monitors, mice, keyboards, my drink, headphones, a printer, and all sorts of clutter. The things move around as I work/play, and a gap where a monitor base, a keyboard leg, a mouse or headphones could fall down wouldn't be what I would personally want. Make it a dining table and I'm all for a split top, since I don't spend long hours at the dining table.

Running wires down the middle of a table isn't exactly the best use of space, either.

[Prashun Patel]

I glued up over the last couple days. I prefer to do it in sections, a seam at a time. Takes longer but I sweat less.

I used TBIII.

After ripping and surfacing each board, the right slab's boards were cupped relative to the left two. Had I slip matched them, everything would have lined up perfectly. The cup was not too bad, about 1/4" over the whole length. I flattened each side a little more to remove some of the discrepancy. Then I glued up the center two boards (where the discrepancy manifests) using cauls. As we'd expect, the resultant glue up had some minor (but not too bad) twist. After I got the outer boards on, however, the cup and twist has all but disappeared.

I was pleasantly surprised that the outer, live edges were relatively vertical, so I didn't have to make angled cauls. I didn't bother using clamping pads, so there was some crushing, but these edges will be eased anyway, so it doesn't concern me.

My jointing must have been acceptable, because the surface is pretty flat off the clamps.

I have to give a shout out to an unsung hero of this and projects past: A throwaway find block plane. It's missing the knob, and I've not found this style or angle useful for regular work. The blade looks like it was used to open cans by someone. I've sharpened it probably twice in 4 years. However, it is BRILLIANT at knocking down glue squeeze out. I shave down the dried glue nibs until it starts feeling wood, and then switch to a scraper or 'real' plane. If you have a beater plane that's gathering dust on the shelf, I highly recommend giving it a job so it can have some dignity. This plane is the Footman in my Downtown Abbey.

[Pat Barry]

That really does look good. You have made great use of the raw material. Beautiful!

[Dave Haughs]

Looking to build one of these very soon. Thanks for sharing.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Wow Prashun, I need to apologize for not visiting this side of the forum often enough. I almost missed this. LOVE the wood! I was going to suggest a dovetailed key in that split, but it seems you have already made smaller boards out of it. This is the same delimma I have when I buy huge slabs of figured mahogany. I feel like I am committing murder every time I saw into one. I eventually want to build something like this with one big large top that highlights the wood without wasting any of it.

I laughed at the espresso stain comment. This is exactly why I don't do custom work and if I sell something then it is something I built the way I wanted, and then someone decided to buy it. Sometimes, however, the challenge of meeting a customer's demands and still creating a beautiful piece can actually add to the joy of a project if you're like me and enjoy a challenge.

Will follow this build. Keep us posted.

[Prashun Patel]

Malcolm, There you are!!! Been checking your chair thread but no news since a few weeks. Where's it at?

I too prefer to make first and then sell. It's a luxury of the otherwise-employed.

Of course, that strategy means I have ended up with a house full of unsold furniture with a face that only a mother could love.

Let's meet over a cup of espresso and commiserate ironically about staining wood.

Mama.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Yes, about that chair.... Ummmm.... long story. Here's the short version: We were flying to MEM and they were supposed to get weather. I called my sister-in-law and said I am not bringing the chair because I know we are going to get stranded, and I do not want the chair bouncing around somewhere on a snowy ramp and miss the flight and never return. Guess what- we did get stranded in North Carolina, spent a whole extra day travelling, and thank goodness we did not bring the chair, because the car seat that we checked did bounce around the ramp, and if they had treated the chair as they did the car seat, I am sure it would have been toast.

So since I knew I was not taking it, I said let me take my time finishing it. I did major in procrastination in college, and did very well at it.

As for the expresso, just as long as we don't spilll it on any lovely natural wood, I'm in!

[Prashun Patel]

Question for you guys:

The customer wants this 'desk' to be 36" tall. She wants large panel sides, and has an aversion to a lower stretcher or visible upper stretcher.

The legs are 36" tall x 19" wide x 1.75" thick.

If I use only upper stretchers on this top (recall, 60"x33"x2") then do you think I'll be ok with two 6"x1" upper stretchers?

[Brian Holcombe]

The top is coming along nicely, great job on the glue up.

[Brian Holcombe]

Question for you guys:

The customer wants this 'desk' to be 36" tall. She wants large panel sides, and has an aversion to a lower stretcher or visible upper stretcher.

The legs are 36" tall x 19" wide x 1.75" thick.

If I use only upper stretchers on this top (recall, 60"x33"x2") then do you think I'll be ok with two 6"x1" upper stretchers?

It's a lot to ask of upper stretchers only when you are talking about a fairly heavy top.

1" wide is not giving yourself a lot of room to work either. You need 8/4" for the stretchers.

What are you planning for the joinery?

[Prashun Patel]

I am planning on loose tenoning the legs into the top. I'll just Domino those.

I'm planning on regular M&T-ing the stretchers into the legs. So, to be clear, I'm thinking of *2* 1" wide stretchers that would be spaced, say, 9" apart. Between the space, I'll add battens that will stabilize the stretchers, and will provide attachment points for the top.

[Brian Holcombe]

Yeah I saw that you had mentioned that, still why not 8/4?

i would use bridle joints, which will double the number of shoulders you have aligning these legs.

If you are really set on using m&t's I would make haunched through tenons where the lower half is made as a wedged through tenon.

Tenons in the top will help. Batten will do nothing to help the joinery.

[Prashun Patel]

Awesome thought! Thanks. Glad I asked. The bridle will be easier for me to cut also.

I see that battens would really only resist twisting, which isn't the risky force here, right? I mean, it's the racking that needs to be addressed, no?

I can switch to 8/4. I may just laminate 4/4. This may simplify the stretcher cuts, and will allow me nice, wide shoulders, correct?

[Brian Holcombe]

Both are important but they have separate purposes. Battens help the top to go through seasonal movement and remain flat, so they are basically required on a slab table. Now you have tenons in the legs which will help as well, but I would still use both.

The racking forces will be working on the joinery and they do have a very long lever to work against since we're talking about 34"~ legs.

[John TenEyck]

Prashun, how about an arched lower stretcher? You are asking a lot of those two little stretchers at the top to resist a good blow if it comes from the end of the table. If an arched stretcher is out, I'd want to increase the width of the those upper ones to something more like 10" where they meet the legs and then narrow them in the middle. You could use some version of a cloud lift, or an arch.

Did I mention that I hate design on the fly?

John

[Prashun Patel]

She's opposed to a lower stretcher. This table will be in an alcove protected on 3 sides.

I'll just have to use upper stretchers and giant tenons.

[Brian Holcombe]

The low stretcher can be annoying if you are using a task chair, so I understand that, but why eliminate the front mid-level stretcher then? That cuts the leverage that the legs have against the top significantly and eliminates the need to overbuild the joinery to the top.

Giant stretchers under the top would be far more difficult to work around that a front mid-level stretcher, in my opinion.

[John TenEyck]

Prashun, I meant a really big arch, like a bridge arch, going all the way up to the top stretchers. With that you wouldn't need much at all for the top stretchers, even a 1 x laid horizontal would be plenty if the arch met it at mid span. It would be almost completely open underneath.

But if the table is protected on 3 sides then I guess you won't need much racking resistance anyway.

John

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks.

I'll connect the base to the top with the floating tenons first. This will allow us to have a better, visual understanding of the implications. Shucks. Going on vaca for a week. Will have to pick up when I return.

[Prashun Patel]

These base panels are 36" tall. The stretcher is about 4" x 2". I bridled it into the base. I used a bandsaw to cut the mortise in the legs, and a table saw to rough out the dados in the stretcher. I cleaned up with a router plane and shoulder plane. I find them more efficient on large work because you can take the tool easier to the work.

The fit is snug. In the 3rd pic, the stretcher is proud of the top of the leg by a smidge.

The dimensions of this whole project feel big to me. But she wants it this way. It's a real delicate balance to steer the customer aesthetically without discouraging them. Ultimately, when they've made the choice, I find it a challenge to remain excited about it, which in turn causes them to doubt themselves. Once the decision's made, I think it's best to go with it and love it. So, I love it.

I want to add more support under the stretcher ends. I'm debating whether to half lap it or just continue the bridle. The half lap will be much simpler to execute (just glue blocks under the stretcher on either side of the leg). However, I'll be shaping the end of the stretcher, and near the bottom it will likely be shortgrained and narrow, so I don't think it'd add any strength to the joint unless it's supported as a bridle would. Think I'll go with bridle.

[John TenEyck]

Prashun, it's starting to look a little ho-hum. Sorry, my opinion only. But I'm sure the finish will bring it to life. Anyway, have you considered a corbel for lack of the correct term on the inside of the legs? They could be attached to the stretcher with a M&T and to the legs with a sliding dovetail, stub tenon and rabbet, or just screwed or pegged. I might have suggested it for the outside of the legs but the stretcher doesn't appear to be long enough to do that. An arch on the inside would address the structural need and really give it some life, IMO, but I know that's off the table, so to say. Too bad.

Isn't 36"+ awfully tall for a desk?

One final comment. It's OK to follow what your customer wants, but there are limits when it comes to structural integrity. Customers often have no clue about what is structurally sound and what isn't, but they are not hesitant to call when something gets wobbly or fails.

OK, I have to ask. Where is your shop? It looks like a factory in the background.

John

[Prashun Patel]

I appreciate the comment, John. I too feel it's ho-hum. But it's what she wants. The table will fortunately be inside a nook, enclosed on 3 sides so there won't be opportunities to rack it too severely. They want it standing height. There's no accounting for taste.

If the table doesn't hold up to their use or their eyes, I can always make them a new one, probably from the same parts.

I really do appreciate your honestly on this. We don't get a lot of 'not loving it' posts around here. That's the only way to learn, IMHO.

[ron david]

if you are not happy with a project from the get go, then you shouldn't do it as it will always reflect back upon you. perhaps the project was beyond was beyond your skills. it is a thing of confidence and that should be implanted into your customer. you should know more about it than them. a beautiful piece of wood in itself cannot over come it's surroundings by it's self. your not happy with it and more than likely the people you made it for will not be happy with it in the end.
you have looked at Don's table that he just built. basically the same' a top and 2 end pieces. his has flow and should last for the ages without racking. Don has tears of experience and this what he does for a living. Don also built this table for himself and by that I mean it is his design and when someone comes along and purchases it, that will be another added plus for him and they will appreciate the design and sturdiness of it for years to come.
commisions are a tough thing for a lot of people and they cave in to their clients demands as all that they are looking at sometimes is the paycheck at the end. remember the worst thing that they can say to you is "no". you may have to sell them your expertise in order to consumate the the way it should be. then you needed have to worry about making them another
ron

[Prashun Patel]

"If you are not happy with a project from the get go, then you shouldn't do it as it will always reflect back upon you."

Thanks for the comment, Ron. I accept the criticism with humility. However, I will say that I am not UNhappy with the design. I believe it will work. I make 2 kinds of things: stuff for myself that I then may gift or sell to someone, and stuff that people ask for. I may not like the style perfectly, but I am happy with the work on the top, and I believe my base is (or will be) solid. Further, I love the process as much as I love the product. Making tables and seating - ANY kind - is extremely fun and satisfying to me. Last, the customer really loves this look, so I'll give her my best execution of it. All this is to say I'm proud of this effort.

Not that it matters, but I shouldn't have given the impression that I conceded to the customer on all points. The design we settled on was well debated, and I believe a good compromise that will make her happy. It's not completely my taste, but there are elements in here that I'm proud of, including the stability.

I agree that Don's table is a work of art. I wouldn't dare compare this to that.

I had a chance to add corbels to the stretcher at lunch. I still have some rounding over of the inside to do, but it's coming along slowly.

[ron david]

I wasn't comparing yours to Don's as there are just a point or two that I was trying to illustrate and I am not trying to put you down. I am pretty stingy on the words a time as it does come across as be a little blunt. there is an old saying about how the human body connects on it's way down. there will be some hear who may remember how it goes. I will see if I cam find it so that I can quote it properly. it relates to flow of parts and how they connect to make a whole. Don's piece has that. Don't tell him that I said that though
. I study forms and over the years I do see that a lot of table tops really do not connect with the legs. they are mostly trying to be different and most times different doesn't make it right
"simple is hard; elaborate is easy" C.F.A. Voysey, English arts and craft movement
ron

[Pat Barry]

It doesn't look to be strong enough for the amount of weight involved. Anyone moving this piece will have to work it a little at a time from each end to kinda walk it around. The stretcher will never hold up to torque loads like that. I think you need to add some substansial bracing, even if only on the back side of the top to side connection so the front looks clean. The stretcher really should be much lower to get the most strength

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks, Pat. That's a good thought. Back bracing...

[Brian Holcombe]

Prashun,

The short grain doesn't add much, it may make it initially tight, but it may split if the table begins to rack. I normally leave a good bit of length after the joint to minimize the chance of this.

I think Pat's suggestion is a good one, the one stretcher alone without additional bracing is not likely to be enough.

[Prashun Patel]

Let me ask you guys this: how low should the table be to be ok with a single top stretcher? What is the rule of thumb with this?

[Brian Holcombe]

Standard height for a dining table and a desk are 28.5" tall.

Here is an original shaker table from the Met with a single underside stretcher;

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_66.10.1.jpg

The overall length on this is 96" and so given that measurement you can imagine the stretcher is massive, and the table is still also connected with another method to fix the top of the legs.

The year given is 1800-1825

It's worth noting that they pulled the legs and stretcher tight with draw pins, this would be impossible for your design, but it suggests the connection may need something pulling it tight to remain so.

Here is a Nakashima take on a shaker table, he lowers the stretcher a bit to give it leverage over the legs.

http://media.mutualart.com/Images/2009_07/25/0316/693147/0c79077a-84f2-4603-a623-cf635f26e2f0_g_570.Jpeg

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks. I've built a similar Shaker Trestle table to this. The height of the stretcher is only about 5" and the top is only connected to the legs via turn-buttons. There has been no racking in 2 years; and I use this desk pretty well at work.
The design of my customer's table is only 6" taller, and I plan to Domino the 2" top into the legs. Won't this give me an effective stretcher of almost 8" - and it's 2" wide, where my Shaker trestle's stretcher is only 7/8" wide.

If this relatively delicate table won't rack, why would mine? Having finished gluing up the base, it feels pretty sturdy.

Customer's coming in tomorrow to discuss.

I wish one of you could come examine this in person; I normally abide by advice of those more skilled than I, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the racking threat here. Thanks for the thoughts.

[Pat Barry]

Hey Prashun, did this project get finished up to yours and your customers satisfaction? Hoping you have a picture or two you could share. Thanks

[Prashun Patel]

Hi Pat. I was lazy to bring my camera in. The project's done. Like all projects, I learned a lot on this one. The client was happy, so I'm happy. They'll be using this as a standing computer desk.

I mounted the top to the base with Dominos. The DF700 made quick work of drilling 2" mortises into the top and bottom. I made my own tenons from scraps. I've come to enjoy the Domino tenon making process. It really allows you to dial in the fit and width. I finally made a small planing stop for Dominos that makes this easier. One nice thing about the DF700's long, fat tenons (vis-a-vis the DF500's) is that they're easier to make and precisely finesse than the tiny ones.

I made the bottom mortises in the top oversized to allow for movement. I glued the Dominos into the base, but left all of them unglued into the top. I learned from workbenches that gluing the top isn't really necessary in some situations, and in this case allows my friends to dis-assemble the table and move it should they wish.

The finish is Waterlox Original Sealer Finish. I vary my schedule from project to project for no other reason than I can't remember how I do it each time ;)

I sanded to 600 (most say you don't need to go past 150 or 180, but if you're not coloring the wood, I challenge anyone to sand up to 600 and then proceed with the top coats, and see if you discover what I have.)
I've been recently adding a very small amount of BLO to my Waterlox because I find it lengthens the open time and is more forgiving of the wiping cloth; less swirls. The downside is that you can't really 'lay on' the finish. It will dry sticky. But if you're a wipe-on-wipe-off-thin-finish fan as am I, this is not a problem. If you notice the surface is a tad sticky between coats, just buff it with mineral spirits and let dry.

[John TenEyck]

Beautiful finish job Prashun. Happy to hear your client is happy. To me it's rather ho-hum, other than the finish. I guess I'm just not much of a live edge fan on what otherwise is a rather normal looking table, desk, etc. A stretcher down close to mid height would have improved the appearance IMHO, in addition to making the structure more robust. I know your client didn't want one, though.

John

[Prashun Patel]

I hear you John! I think the whole design would have benefited from a lot of 'lightening up'. I would have in fact routed the edges clean, and beveled the long edges underneath to lighten up the top.

[Jim Becker]

That's really beautiful, Prashun!

[Pat Barry]

Very nice. I think the photo of the desk in the cubbyhole is washing out the appearance of the walnut - it looked so nice in previous pictures I think its just an optical issue in these photo's. You do a great job of finishing. It would be cool if you could document this process and share it. For example, how did you pick up on using some BLO mixed in with the Waterlox?

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks, Guys.

Pat, I started using BLO when I started making my own Danish oil. Most of the varnish products out there are a combination of varnish resin, mineral spirits, and possibly some oil. I found Flexner's book and Jeff Jewitt's writing very illuminating on how each of these components alters the finish. I learned a good deal (and continue to learn) from the guys on this forum (Steve, Howard, John T, Scott, Jim, and others). My hero is Mike Pekovitch from FWW. I hope to meet him some day.

I find that of all aspects of woodworking, there's the least understanding about finishing. A lot of reputable bloggers and podcasters out there, including Woodtalk and MWA, and FWW have all misspoken about varnish and oil/varnish blends. I'm surprised how many veteran woodworkers are intimidated by this aspect and end up making blanket statements like, "There's no reason to mix your own finish" or "Danish oil is a varnish".

I say, just get in there, mix your own and try things out. There's so much misleading or blanket information on this subject, that you can easily get turned around and confused.

[Brian Holcombe]

Looks good, the finish is very nice.

[John TenEyck]

I hear you John! I think the whole design would have benefited from a lot of 'lightening up'. I would have in fact routed the edges clean, and beveled the long edges underneath to lighten up the top.

I agree Prashun, that would have improved the looks a lot. But customers want what they think they want and until we are so famous that people will buy what we make because Prashun or John made it we'll just have to say "Yes, Ma'am, I can do that." Let me know when you get there !

John

[Pat Barry]

Thanks, Guys.

Pat, I started using BLO when I started making my own Danish oil. Most of the varnish products out there are a combination of varnish resin, mineral spirits, and possibly some oil. I found Flexner's book and Jeff Jewitt's writing very illuminating on how each of these components alters the finish. I learned a good deal (and continue to learn) from the guys on this forum (Steve, Howard, John T, Scott, Jim, and others). My hero is Mike Pekovitch from FWW. I hope to meet him some day.

I find that of all aspects of woodworking, there's the least understanding about finishing. A lot of reputable bloggers and podcasters out there, including Woodtalk and MWA, and FWW have all misspoken about varnish and oil/varnish blends. I'm surprised how many veteran woodworkers are intimidated by this aspect and end up making blanket statements like, "There's no reason to mix your own finish" or "Danish oil is a varnish".

I say, just get in there, mix your own and try things out. There's so much misleading or blanket information on this subject, that you can easily get turned around and confused.
When I get to finish part of the project I usually cringe and find something else to do while I work up the courage. Having a predictable process would help immensely.

[ron david]

When I get to finish part of the project I usually cringe and find something else to do while I work up the courage. Having a predictable process would help immensely.

that is the least part that you should worry about unless you have used some horrific stain that is not removable. most finishing fuddles can be remedied quite easily while still fresh. one can usually wash it off with the right thinners and start over
ron

[Jim Becker]

When I get to finish part of the project I usually cringe and find something else to do while I work up the courage. Having a predictable process would help immensely.
Pat, the "cure" for this is to work out the finishing regimen "off" the project. It's really important to go through all your intended steps on scrap first so you know exactly how each finishing step will affect the final result. And when coloration is involved, subsequent steps do affect the color, so you can't just assume that what it looks like with just the color step in place will be what you get. Working it out first will help to give you some confidence about what the result will be.