Making outdoor sign - Colored wood options. Is there a paint that holds up well?

[Rob Joeseph]

Hi,

I am making a sign for a business. The owner is a friend of mine and I made her own years ago out of pre-colored plastic sheet material. (The specific name escapes me now). I want to make her a new sign but I have better tooling and work ability with wood. I thought of making a wood sign and coloring the letters somehow, either a paint product or dye.

The letters would be 3D and placed on a flat sheet material which would be the 'backboard' or 'canvas' of the sign. Pretty simple sign concept. Here's ideas of it
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I am mainly concerned about weathering, holding up to rain and snow. Her first sign was wooden and didn't last long. She would be pleased if this new sign I'm making would hold up well for a minimum of 5 years. So it brings me to question which adhesives, paint or dye products I should be looking into.

I am also considering spraying the entire sign with a durable clear coat that is best suited to holdup outdoors. Any recommendations is greatly appreciated. I'll consider hand finishing it too.

Also, which wood species should I use is the other question. I imagine using a clear face, clear grained wood which would give the best even color effect but in terms of moisture and movement I'm really not that sure which wood is preferable. Any help here is greatly appreciated too.

I thank you.

[Paul Phillips]

Hi Rob, IMO, for long lasting exterior wood signs Cedar is the best choice, Redwood used to be the best but became too expensive and difficult to find in better grades. The reason for Cedar is its natural resins that give it a resistance to insects and rot, there are some sign supply places that sell Cedar sign blanks or you could order from someone like PerfectPlank.com. For paint, I would avoid stains unless you want to re-stain every year or two, some solid color stains perform reasonably well but good old latex exterior house paint works pretty good and along with a good primer should last for at least 5 years, house paint would probably be your best bet as far as cost and it being easy to find and have quarts mixed to your color specs at any corner paint store or Lowe's or HD, beyond that you can use Enamel sign paint such as "One Shot" which you can find through most sign supply stores, these will be the most expensive but should also last the longest and have more of the bright vibrant colors available. I don't think you would need to clear coat it because there are not many clear coats that will last long outside over latex that I'm aware of. Also, another option to consider if budget allows is HDU, (High Density Urethane) foam board such as Precision Board which lasts forever outside without cracking, chipping or warping like wood can, a bit more expensive though depending on the density, cuts, machines, primes and paints-up like wood.
Hope this helps.

[Rob Joeseph]

Hey Paul,

Thanks for the reply and suggestions. Cedar of course does seem like a good choice because of it's properties. I've seen many signs on google images made out of cedar but they were mostly stained/sealed. I never thought of painting cedar though. I wonder if that would be ok to do that.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Hi Rob, IMO, for long lasting exterior wood signs Cedar is the best choice, Redwood used to be the best but became too expensive and difficult to find in better grades. The reason for Cedar is its natural resins that give it a resistance to insects and rot, there are some sign supply places that sell Cedar sign blanks or you could order from someone like PerfectPlank.com. For paint, I would avoid stains unless you want to re-stain every year or two, some solid color stains perform reasonably well but good old latex exterior house paint works pretty good and along with a good primer should last for at least 5 years, house paint would probably be your best bet as far as cost and it being easy to find and have quarts mixed to your color specs at any corner paint store or Lowe's or HD, beyond that you can use Enamel sign paint such as "One Shot" which you can find through most sign supply stores, these will be the most expensive but should also last the longest and have more of the bright vibrant colors available. I don't think you would need to clear coat it because there are not many clear coats that will last long outside over latex that I'm aware of. Also, another option to consider if budget allows is HDU, (High Density Urethane) foam board such as Precision Board which lasts forever outside without cracking, chipping or warping like wood can, a bit more expensive though depending on the density, cuts, machines, primes and paints-up like wood.
Hope this helps.

Not sure a lot of people would agree with that. HDU definitely isn't the toughest material in the world, even in the 18-20lb variety. HDU definitely can work in a lot of different applications but I think the last thing I'd talk about is how tough it is. Everything else, I agree with.

Cedar is the best low maintenance wood out there. I've heard of people using yellow pine. I have no real opinion on the matter. You can also seriously look at MDO as an option. Sealed properly, it should last over 5 years. A lot of people in the sign industry are moving away from wood into plastics, foams, and metal. My personal suggestion would be 3/4" or thicker PVC. It's tough, paints well, and isn't crazy expensive. For the letters, I'd either do PVC or acrylic. Paint you want exterior acrylic paint. Going to Home Depot or Lowes will probably be your best bet.

[Paul Phillips]

Hi Ross, I've worked with HDU quite a bit and have found that the higher densities are quite strong, we choose density based on the detail and strength required for each specific job, If you've never worked with 30lb or 40lb you might be amazed at how tough it is, certainly tougher than cedar or even some hard woods, 40lb seems nearly as hard and strong as Acrylic, 30lb seems to be more than enough for most needs though. At 30lbs+ priming and painting are much easier also, no extra high fill primer needed. Again, I see the advantage of no warping cracking, it's completely moisture proof, where a wood sign near sprinklers is not an option, HDU will work fine. I've found PVC to have challenges with paint filling the porous edges properly and also it tends to expand and contract a lot more, at least in the desert heat where I live. There are definitely people out there making good use of it every day, if you've never seen Dan Sawatzky's work I would recommend checking it out as an example of someone who uses it successfully every day.
http://www.enroutesoftware.com/ExpertTips

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Example of an HDU sign I did.

[Joe Pelonio]

Good advice from Paul. I have many cedar signs all over the place still looking good after 10+ years, they just need a light pressure wash at times to remove the moss. I always used a good oil based primer first, then One-Shot enamels. Just be sure to price accordingly, it's great paint but not cheap.

[Art Mann]

I prefer to use Versatex or Azek PVC trim board for this type application. It takes paint well and is easy to carve precisely with a CNC router. It is considerably cheaper than HDU if it is suited to the job.

You mentioned you are considering using a clear coat over the product. I have not been able to identify any clear coat spray or brush on material that holds up outside on wood over time.

[Keith Outten]

I guess I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum here in that wood is my last choice for an exterior sign unless it has to be deep carved. I prefer Corian most of the time but I use PVC on occasion. I find that the extra cost of Corian is offset by the lower cost in labor, it will last 50 years in exterior service and does not need a backing piece.

[Rob Joeseph]

I guess I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum here in that wood is my last choice for an exterior sign unless it has to be deep carved. I prefer Corian most of the time but I use PVC on occasion. I find that the extra cost of Corian is offset by the lower cost in labor, it will last 50 years in exterior service and does not need a backing piece.

No Keith, It is I on the opposite end of the Spectrum. Signs made out of PVC/Plastic materials will definitely last longer and are probably the standard.

[Keith Outten]

Paul,

Your Front Street Photo sign is a real beauty. Nice design and the craftsmanship is excellent. The way you worked the lamp into the design is also a nice touch, it looks like its made from steel as does the frame.
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[Paul Phillips]

Paul,

Your Front Street Photo sign is a real beauty. Nice design and the craftsmanship is excellent. The way you worked the lamp into the design is also a nice touch, it looks like its made from steel as does the frame.
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Thanks Kieth, it was part of some signs we did for San Diego Zoo so we used their designs, but they did turn out nice, we used Aluminum for the scrollwork frame which I CNC cut and then welded together, the HDU is 2" thick 30lb which I completely carved on my CNC also to give it that hand carved look. Interestingly, I started out in the '80s doing hand carved Redwood signs, Redwood is still the best outdoor wood which is why it's used for decks, but the availability and quality has gone way down and the cost has gone way up. We used to use 2"x12" vertical grain, kiln dried, clear heart wood laminated together and hand drawn, routed and carved, those were the good ol' days!

[Robert Delhommer Sr]

Cedar & brush on a couple of coats of spar varnish.

[Paul Phillips]

Cedar & brush on a couple of coats of spar varnish.
Possibly, depending where your located, and IF you can still get traditional solvent based which is now only sold in quarts and banned in California, he wants it to last 5+ years outside, that would not be my first choice.

[Art Mann]

My opinion is that a good spar varnish formulation will extend the life of the finish from several months to maybe 3 years fully exposed to the weather. To get even that kind of durability, you have to buy premium spar varnish formulated for the boating industry. Minwax and similar consumer brands are not much better than just straight polyurethane. I am basing this opinion on my experience with a bunch of Adirondak chairs I manufactured out of Cypress. The ones I used Minwax spar varnish on were placed up under a North facing porch where they got zero direct sunlight and were protected from all but strong blowing rains.They started looking shabby and cracking and peeling in under a year.

[Rob Joeseph]

My opinion is that a good spar varnish formulation will extend the life of the finish from several months to maybe 3 years fully exposed to the weather. To get even that kind of durability, you have to buy premium spar varnish formulated for the boating industry. Minwax and similar consumer brands are not much better than just straight polyurethane. I am basing this opinion on my experience with a bunch of Adirondak chairs I manufactured out of Cypress. The ones I used Minwax spar varnish on were placed up under a North facing porch where they got zero direct sunlight and were protected from all but strong blowing rains.They started looking shabby and cracking and peeling in under a year.

I would agree about the Marine varnish for boats being the most durable. I never worked with them on regular projects, I imagine they are more costly and difficult to source.

My whole idea was to encapsulate the wooden letters with the paint and have it sealed fully but I still wonder about the moisture trapped inside the wood itself and I know some paints like acrylic, when painted on wood will actually breathe. The enamel paints seem like the most promising paint finish but I just found a website here that sells MDO letters rated for outdoors painted with "automotive grade paint". I wonder what type of pain that is, do they mean actual automotive paint or an enamel? http://www.woodlandmanufacturing.com/materials/wood-letters/outdoor-painted-wood-letters

The last sign I made I used pre-colored PVC board or Acrylite board. I had the pieces cut and them assembled them with a pvc glue. I might reconsider doing this option again too.

If I did go with wooden or MDO painted letters I wonder what would be the best option for the backing board and how to adhere it.

[Paul Phillips]

Rob, by "automotive grade" they probably mean the Matthews Paint system which is a catalyzed urethane based, formulated specifically for the sign industry, they are owned by PPG which is a leading auto pain manufacturer and had all of their R&D behind it. If a good enamel lasts 4-5 years, Matthews will last 7-8, not cheap but we've been using it for decades on all of our signs with great success.
I don't have much experience using spar vanish because we use the Matthews clear or equivalent which is formulated specifically to use over the Matthews. Obviously the traditional Marine Spar Varnish will work fine over wood since it has been used successfully in the marine industry. From what I know about it though, the traditional solvent based finishes are getting increasingly difficult to find as they are being phased out by VOC laws, not sure how the newer replacements will hold up.
As for mounting, a good quality RTV Silicone has always worked well for me as it had good adhesion and allows for some expansion and contraction.

[Scott Shepherd]

Great work Paul! Thanks for sharing. What a professional job, done right with professional materials. Your talent shows in that sign, that's for sure. Well done!

[Ross Moshinsky]

I would agree about the Marine varnish for boats being the most durable. I never worked with them on regular projects, I imagine they are more costly and difficult to source.

My whole idea was to encapsulate the wooden letters with the paint and have it sealed fully but I still wonder about the moisture trapped inside the wood itself and I know some paints like acrylic, when painted on wood will actually breathe. The enamel paints seem like the most promising paint finish but I just found a website here that sells MDO letters rated for outdoors painted with "automotive grade paint". I wonder what type of pain that is, do they mean actual automotive paint or an enamel? http://www.woodlandmanufacturing.com/materials/wood-letters/outdoor-painted-wood-letters

The last sign I made I used pre-colored PVC board or Acrylite board. I had the pieces cut and them assembled them with a pvc glue. I might reconsider doing this option again too.

If I did go with wooden or MDO painted letters I wonder what would be the best option for the backing board and how to adhere it.

http://www.woodlandmanufacturing.com/warranties.html. Medex (MDF) and MDO are both designed to be water resistant. Add that in with good paint and it's not all that tricky to get them to look pretty good for 5 years. I actually read something the other day about someone taking trupan letters and soaking it in shellac. Because the trupan is "airy" it allows the shellac to penetrate and make a water resistant letter.

In my opinion you're mixing up terms. Acrylite is acrylic. Acrylic is incredibly weather resistant. Acrylic signs should essentially last forever outdoors. Colored PVC(ie Komatex/Sintra) is not the same product at all. It's foamy and not designed for outdoor use. The colors fade and the material expands and contracts a lot. This should not be confused with exterior grade PVC which is a far more stable product.

If you're just doing a solid backer with cut letters and cost is a big concern, I'd buy a piece of MDO somewhere and finish it properly (lots of posts on this subject on the internet). Then apply acrylic letters with a threaded rod. I wouldn't buy MDO or MDF letters and put them outside. When the backer board goes bad, pop off the letters, and do it again. I do think it would probably be in everyone's best interest to spend another $50-100 and buy a sheet of PVC as the base material instead. That way you're fixing the sign every 10+ years instead of every 5+ years.

[Rob Joeseph]

http://www.woodlandmanufacturing.com/warranties.html. Medex (MDF) and MDO are both designed to be water resistant. Add that in with good paint and it's not all that tricky to get them to look pretty good for 5 years. I actually read something the other day about someone taking trupan letters and soaking it in shellac. Because the trupan is "airy" it allows the shellac to penetrate and make a water resistant letter.

In my opinion you're mixing up terms. Acrylite is acrylic. Acrylic is incredibly weather resistant. Acrylic signs should essentially last forever outdoors. Colored PVC(ie Komatex/Sintra) is not the same product at all. It's foamy and not designed for outdoor use. The colors fade and the material expands and contracts a lot. This should not be confused with exterior grade PVC which is a far more stable product.

If you're just doing a solid backer with cut letters and cost is a big concern, I'd buy a piece of MDO somewhere and finish it properly (lots of posts on this subject on the internet). Then apply acrylic letters with a threaded rod. I wouldn't buy MDO or MDF letters and put them outside. When the backer board goes bad, pop off the letters, and do it again. I do think it would probably be in everyone's best interest to spend another $50-100 and buy a sheet of PVC as the base material instead. That way you're fixing the sign every 10+ years instead of every 5+ years.


Yeah I probably am mixing up the terms, I'm not sure of the specific product I used, it was from a plastics distributor and I'm still trying to find the name of it. I think it was PVC and not acrylic.

Your idea sounds pretty good about using the acrylic letters.

When you said you wouldn't buy the MDO or MDF is is because you think they would only last about 5 years painted properly with enamel? That's something to consider.

[Scott Shepherd]

Rob, remember, you're competing with sign companies that do this for a living. If you want to grow that side of your business, then do it right and have it look great for years. If you go cheap all the way and use indoor products, trying to seal them so they'll last outdoors, when there are already products out there made to stand up, I think you'll be doing yourself a disservice. Honestly, if someone is taking trupan and dipping them in shellac, they are spending more time and money than just cutting the letters out of something made for outdoors.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Yeah I probably am mixing up the terms, I'm not sure of the specific product I used, it was from a plastics distributor and I'm still trying to find the name of it. I think it was PVC and not acrylic.

Your idea sounds pretty good about using the acrylic letters.

When you said you wouldn't buy the MDO or MDF is is because you think they would only last about 5 years painted properly with enamel? That's something to consider.

Scott explained it pretty well. You're building a sign that will not look good in 5-10 years if you use certain products. MDO/MDF will not hold up. If you live in a very dry climate, you might be okay, but if you live somewhere where it rains, like most of the US, the water will penetrate the wood. Once it does that, the sign will fail. This is just inevitable. This is why plastics and foams have taken over the sign industry. PVC, HDU, and acrylic are more or less designed to last "forever".

[Paul Phillips]

Great work Paul! Thanks for sharing. What a professional job, done right with professional materials. Your talent shows in that sign, that's for sure. Well done!

Thanks for the props Steve, that means a lot coming from you!
Agree with Steve and Ross, you guys nailed it.

[Mike Null]

Here's a Corian marker I did a few days ago. Family wanted a budget piece for an indigent family member. I happened to have some Corian on hand and cut it to size.

Last name has been blacked out.

[Keith Outten]

You can read the date on the first picture below, the sign looks exactly the same today as it did the day it was installed.

The second picture and its closeup were installed long before the Greek signs and even though the Corian letters were painted they still look great. Although I took this picture on the same day as the Greek signs the letters are at least two years older probably installed in 2007....I can verify the date by looking at the building construction pictures. The day I installed the Greek signs I went next door to Madison Hall to take the picture of the letters so I could document how well they were holding up in the weather. The next trip I take to CNU I will take another set of photographs to update my files on these two projects.

I have another set of signs I made for Potomac River Hall that I used painted cedar for the backer and dark blue Corian for the Sail graphics. These were done in 2004 and last year I checked both signs, the cedar needs to be painted but the Corian sails still look perfect, shiny and new. I should have used a white Corian backer on this project.

Zero maintenance on either of the top two projects and they should look just as good in 25 years or more as they do today.

I have two Corian signs that are right on the waterfront at Saint Mary's School that I installed in 2014. I will be watching these two signs carefully as the years go by. I can say that after plenty of storms there is no degrade on either of these signs.
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