Needed... 10' 2x4s (preferably quartersawn)

[Dan Hintz]

No perfect forum for this one, but this should reach enough of the appropriate audience...

We closed on our old house this past Friday, which means I'm out of a proper shop. The new house has nearly 10' ceilings in the basement, so my current stockpile of 8' 2x4s will not work (conveniently). Every time I go to Home Depot, Lowe's, etc., I need to pick through their stock to get wood that won't warp... at a paltry rate of about 20% useable.

I'm looking for suggestions on where to get 10' lengths of 2x4s that will all (or at least mostly) be quartsawn to avoid warpage. I would prefer a place that would deliver, and I'm thinking a couple of pallets worth would do me. Should I be looking for a specific type of company? Would sawmills typically have something like this in stock (and already dry), or should I be looking elsewhere?

Specific suggestions in/around the Glenelg, MD area would be ideal :)

Thanks!

[Phil Thien]

Are these for partition walls? QS seems pretty extreme for partition walls.

One of the most common methods is to go wider and cut the pith out. BUT you can get reactive boards that give you fits when you do this.

I'd honestly visit a few yards and take a look at their stock. You may find a yard that has some nice lifts. Mark one and tell them to deliver it.

[Jim Andrew]

There are basicly 3 different species available for yards to buy from. The spf stuff, means spruce, pine, and fir. There are no fir boards in this grade. Mostly spruce. This is the cheap stuff you find at HD, etc. Then there is hem-fir, which is hemlock. I have seen a fir or 2 in this grade over my career. The top grade is doug fir, or douglas fir, which is about the highest priced lumber you can buy. If you have bought 24' lumber, it is usually doug fir, and considerably more expensive than the other grades. Used to see syp, or southern yellow pine, but have not seen it for sale except as treated for a long time. Occasionally you can buy doug fir studs, and the yards offer precut studs in 8',9', and 10'. They are shorter of course, to alllow for 3 plates.

[roger wiegand]

You need to get out of the Borgs and to a real lumber yard. They should be able to offer you a range of products at a range of price points, all of them deliver. You can get engineered wood that will stay straight, but I think you'll find regular lumber that is fine for building walls much less expensively. I think HD and Lowes pretty much get the stuff that isn't good enough to make pallets or toothpicks out of.

[Tom M King]

I've been building for 42 years now. Even when good lumber was available, we always hand picked every piece. These days, we still do, but buy several weeks in advance (at least), and set it aside. Some of it will move by tomorrow. Some will move by next week. Some will move by next month. One good thing about buying from the big box stores is the ease of return. Do the best you can selecting lumber. Buy double what you need. Keep your receipt. Carry back what you don't use.

When you call for delivery, they will bring what's left that has already been picked through.

[scott vroom]

I've never seen nor heard of QS dimensional softwood lumber. As other have suggested, go to a quality lumberyard and ask to look at their premium stud lumber. I can't imagine using QS lumber for construction framing....way overkill IMO.

My local lumber yard sells #1 grade doug fir air dried for 89 cents/lin ft...guaranteed straight. They also stock a doug fir clear and straight grain 2 x 4 for $2/lin ft....but covering that beautiful lumber with sheetrock would be a waste.

[Prashun Patel]

To state what I'm sure you already know: I will add that you should go to a reputable lumber yard. There are several around me that don't treat their lumber any better than BORG; in fact, worse. They also have contempt for the homeowner who shows up in his Honda acting like he knows what he wants but only wants a little bit of it.

[roger wiegand]

I've been building for 42 years now. Even when good lumber was available, we always hand picked every piece. These days, we still do, but buy several weeks in advance (at least), and set it aside. Some of it will move by tomorrow. Some will move by next week. Some will move by next month. One good thing about buying from the big box stores is the ease of return. Do the best you can selecting lumber. Buy double what you need. Keep your receipt. Carry back what you don't use.

When you call for delivery, they will bring what's left that has already been picked through.

I hear this kind of thing a lot, but my experience is that the big yards that sell by the pallet a) don't ever let anyone pick through the pile and b) offer much higher quality material than even the best at HD and the like. The places I go you never see the wood until the forklift comes around the corner with your order on it or it shows up in the driveway. If you order a few dozen boards you get the ones off the top of the current open pallet, no one has time to do any picking or sorting. None of the builders I know ever waste time going to the lumber yard, and any of them would refuse delivery on wood of the quality you describe. I watched the framing lumber they built my house with recently pretty carefully and was very impressed with the overall quality. Yes, there were a few boards that had to be tossed aside, but less than 5%. I'm sure the price was probably also 2-3x the HD price, but much cheaper than the labor of trying to build straight walls with pretzels.

[John Lanciani]

Any reason you don't want to use steel studs? Partition walls in a basement are the perfect application for them. Straight, mold proof, and cost effective.

[Dan Hintz]

For reference, the basement is roughly 2,300 square feet, completely unfinished. I expect roughly 1/4 of it to be my new workshop, 1/2 to be split between a media room and general lounging area, and the final 1/4 to be split between a bathroom, mini wine cellar, and some as-of-yet undefined area.

I am shooting for something that won't warp within two weeks of being put in a conditioned space, hence my initial desire for QS (though I admit that may be over-specifying). I have a few example pieces of BORG wood (from before I knew what to choose) that curve upwards/downwards 2' over the 8' length, curve to one side 6" (just within the last few feet, mind you), and add a 20-30 degree twist, to boot... and that's all in the same piece! Once I started handpicking and finding the 1:5 good/bad ratio, I may get 5% bad boards after the acclimate (and "bad" here simply means a slight twist or minor arc over the whole 8').

Since I could barely fit 8'ers in the Cube, I know 10'ers aren't going to make it... since I'm tired of cherry picking and can't fit them in the vehicle, delivery is the preferred method of purchase, but only if I can get a high percentage of usable boards.


Any reason you don't want to use steel studs? Partition walls in a basement are the perfect application for them. Straight, mold proof, and cost effective.

You raise a good point, John... I had completely forgotten about steel, and this might very well be the perfect opportunity to use them. I'll have to research install methods compared to wood, but I can't imagine that will be an issue. What's a good place to purchase from? What other issues do I need to worry about (e.g., do I need to change my electrical boxes to ones with sheet metal screws, etc.)? Are there load issues to worry about if I wish to hand cabinets down there (and some areas WILL need cabinets)?

[John Lanciani]

You raise a good point, John... I had completely forgotten about steel, and this might very well be the perfect opportunity to use them. I'll have to research install methods compared to wood, but I can't imagine that will be an issue. What's a good place to purchase from? What other issues do I need to worry about (e.g., do I need to change my electrical boxes to ones with sheet metal screws, etc.)? Are there load issues to worry about if I wish to hand cabinets down there (and some areas WILL need cabinets)?

A full service lumber yard or a drywall supply house will have them. Installation is easy, they just go together with tek screws. Electrical boxes meant for steel studs also install with tek screws so thats easy too. As for cabinets, the best thing is to put wood blocking in wherever you want to mount them.

[Peter Quinn]

Good Vertical grain Doug fir is as expensive or more around here as QSWO. It's not framing material. There is a grade similar to what you describe that mostly gets sent to Japan, costs a lot more, not for sale here. I'd go with steel or engineered if stability is a major concern. Oddly my local HD has become one of the best sources in town for framing material, used to be the pits, not sure what changed over there. But they have some odd gaps in what sizes they carry, for instance they didn't have 2x4x10 in DF last time I went, only SPF in a barely structural grade, waste of time. When I built my garage about 2 years back the HD beat other quotes by almost 40%, free delivery on orders over a few hundred, I reluctantly went with them to find nearly every stick in every size was prestine as if I'd picked it myself. For large orders they don't go out in the aisle and pick, it's all picked from a regional yard, bundled and delivered on flat bed, the turnover is good, the stock is IME better than what's in the store. I had 2x4 through 2x12 in lengths from 8'- 16', all excellent. Luck? Maybe so.

I think you'll find lvl's or lsl's are a fair bit more expensive, but very straight and strong too. Usually they are used in tall balloon framed shear walls, a bit excessive for the basement, but would certainly work. The condo I work in is steel stud framed, we have hung some very heavy shelves that hold clamps, cutters, a vacuum cycles for CNC table, all are secure and fine when the correct anchores are used.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Good Vertical grain Doug fir is as expensive or more around here as QSWO. It's not framing material. There is a grade similar to what you describe that mostly gets sent to Japan....

Vertical grain is the same as qtrswn, for the record. And in softwood dimensional/framing lumber, no mill that I have ever heard of mills for qtrswn/vertical. If you find about 20% that way in the lumber yard racks, that seems about right - flat sawing logs will yield a % as qtrswn.

Also - there are companies that do qtrsaw SYP. But - they are using the best-of-the-best logs, the grads start at C&Btr and go up from there, and it is, in fact, used for export - in that case, Europe is a big market.

If the OP wants no-foolin stability, then the steel studs are definitely the way to go: fire-and-forget.

[Jay Jolliffe]

Surprising no one mentioned metal studs...They don't warp...Sorry Kent just noticed you mentioned metal studs....

[Kent A Bathurst]

Surprising no one mentioned metal studs...They don't warp...Sorry Kent just noticed you mentioned metal studs....


Don''t credit me - it was brought up a couple pages earlier.

[scott vroom]

Good Vertical grain Doug fir is as expensive or more around here as QSWO. It's not framing material. There is a grade similar to what you describe that mostly gets sent to Japan, costs a lot more, not for sale here.

Out here in Calif. clear vert grain KD DF costs less than QSWO on a board foot basis. Still, as I pointed out, it would be wasteful to use for wall framing. Straight air dry structural #1 DF is plentiful in my area at reasonable pricing.

I've never worked with metal studs but agree if stability trumps all else then they might be a better choice for the OP.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I've never worked with metal studs but agree if stability trumps all else then they might be a better choice for the OP.

I've always live in A+C / bungalow style houses, from the mid 20's.

I am unfamiliar with the concept of straight / square / plumb walls, especially in the basement workshops.

Are they worthwhile? :D :D

[Peter Quinn]

Vertical grain is the same as qtrswn, for the record. And in softwood dimensional/framing lumber, no mill that I have ever heard of mills for qtrswn/vertical. If you find about 20% that way in the lumber yard racks, that seems about right - flat sawing logs will yield a % as qtrswn.

Also - there are companies that do qtrsaw SYP. But - they are using the best-of-the-best logs, the grads start at C&Btr and go up from there, and it is, in fact, used for export - in that case, Europe is a big market.

If the OP wants no-foolin stability, then the steel studs are definitely the way to go: fire-and-forget.

For the record softwoods are always referred to as "Vertical grain", not quarter sawn. Thats a hardwood designation. Right from national manufacturers association grading handbooks.

[Chris Padilla]

Buy larger wood (2x6, 2x8, etc.) and rip out the bad stuff.

[Peter Quinn]

Out here in Calif. clear vert grain KD DF costs less than QSWO on a board foot basis. Still, as I pointed out, it would be wasteful to use for wall framing. Straight air dry structural #1 DF is plentiful in my area at reasonable pricing.

I've never worked with metal studs but agree if stability trumps all else then they might be a better choice for the OP.


Her in CT a few local yards carry 8/4 Doug fir in a clear grade, pretty fantastic perfect vertical grain, its sold in widths like dimensioned lumber and priced by the LF, but it works out to be more than QSWO for me by the BF. Maybe its a regional thing? White oak grows in my back yard....DF not so much. I can get SYP flooring in a good clear grade, and PT, but not easily get SYP framing lumber in New England, its all DF. Go a few hundred miles south, maybe that changes? Lumber market is a funny thing. I priced material for a window job 8 years back and was supposed to find clear grade vertical grain EWP, which grows every where here, was more than African mahogany pattern grade. Go figure.

[lowell holmes]

I Googled lumber yards in Glenelg Maryland and came up with at least two yards that service builders. Also, 84 Lumber has a store there. I used to buy some good lumber from 84.

You don't have to go to the box stores.

[Myk Rian]

Build a wall with the 8'ers and then a 2' box on top of it to fill the space.

[Larry Frank]

Make your own stock from 3/4" plywood.

You might try somewhere the salvage old beams and have them cut into your sizes.

No matter what you do it will be costly. Good Luck

I have a dream of finding the perfect 2x4...... I have spent my entire life and still looking.

[Wade Lippman]

When you call for delivery, they will bring what's left that has already been picked through.

My Lowes always has a good stock, and it is about 50% good. They must discard the junk because it doesn't accumulate. I once reluctantly had a delivery and found everything they sent out was good. They even delivered the load to my backyard. I don't expect to ever have to do it again, but would if necessary.

I heard about a Grossmans that never disposed of the junk so it built up to the point where they didn't need to reorder; and obviously no one shopped there since there was no useable stock. They effectively put themselves out of business for a few months.

[Art Mann]

Where I live, there are maybe two small time band sawmills that might cut and kiln dry premium grade quarter sawn pine but that is about the only place I could get it. It would be special order and might take 3 months to get it. These guys sell mostly to hobby woodworkers in small quantities and their prices will reflect that. Last summer, I ordered a dozen or so #1 SYP pressure treated and kiln dried 2 X 4's for a special project requiring appearance grade lumber. The material I got was almost flawless (but not quarter sawn) except for being a little higher moisture content than I wanted. I stickered and dried the lumber in a hot shop loft for a month and it worked very well with no waste due to defects or warpage. I suggest you special order premium grade lumber from a first class lumber yard if you can find one. You will probably pay twice the price of common lumber for it but at least for me, it was well worth the price.

[Peter Kelly]

A full service lumber yard or a drywall supply house will have them. Installation is easy, they just go together with tek screws. Electrical boxes meant for steel studs also install with tek screws so thats easy too. As for cabinets, the best thing is to put wood blocking in wherever you want to mount them.You'll want to frame the doors out with wood as well. Also - if you're running baseboard around the room or trimming any windows out, you'll want to frame those areas with wood as well.

[Phil Thien]

You'll want to frame the doors out with wood as well. Also - if you're running baseboard around the room or trimming any windows out, you'll want to frame those areas with wood as well.

The advantage of the metal studs is evaporating.

[Dan Hintz]

As for cabinets, the best thing is to put wood blocking in wherever you want to mount them.


The advantage of the metal studs is evaporating.

That's what I was thinking... if I need 10' 2x4s to block the metal studs just so I can hang cabinets, it has way more than doubled the cost for that wall (not to mention the trouble).

I'm starting to appreciate my older, short-ceilinged house more and more... :-/

Maybe my next step is to go to one of the local sawmills, tell them my needs and concerns, then see what they say. If I don't like the reply, I can keep researching. I would just really love to have a shop again so I don't have to keep telling my customers "I'm not sure when I'll be back up and running..." Not good for business.

[Kent A Bathurst]

For the record softwoods are always referred to as "Vertical grain", not quarter sawn. Thats a hardwood designation. Right from national manufacturers association grading handbooks.

Correct.

I think that comes down to a semantics issue for our purposes. They are the same cut, same grain structure.

I was speaking from a pragmatic standpoint. You are correct in terms of the grading handbooks.

[Kent A Bathurst]

... if I need 10' 2x4s to block the metal studs.....

Dan - nope. In walls, the term "blocking" generally refers to chunks of wood running horizontally between the studs. It gives you a solid structure to attach stuff to. Cabinets, toilet paper holders, handicap rails, etc., etc. Any grade material - scrap, end cuts, and so forth.

[Phil Thien]

For the record softwoods are always referred to as "Vertical grain", not quarter sawn. Thats a hardwood designation. Right from national manufacturers association grading handbooks.

Are you sure about that?

I had asked an old timer about that once and he told me that vertical grain allowed for 60-90 degree grain, basically anything that didn't look flat-sawn.

He said quarter-sawn typically yielded more in the 75-90 range, and closer to 90 than 75.

This guy had told me all quarter-sawn is vertical grain, but not all vertical grain is quarter-sawn.

He sure seemed like he knew what he was talking about.

He said softwood isn't typically sold as QS because it really isn't milled that way. They flat-saw it, and then the vertical grain stuff is hand-selected from that.

BTW, he had both. Vertical grain, and QS. And I do have QS I purchased from him in my basement right now.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Phil - nibbling around the edges. Would not dream of arguing with your expert, just sayin.............


It is flat-sawn and then sorted on a grade chain. There is a never-ending discussion about what degrees is qtrswn, and what is rift-sawn in hardwoods. The softwood is selected for the results on the long faces - so there is a wider range of opportunity. You don't get the grain appearance of, say QS Sycamore or WO in the softwoods. You get the long, nice, straight lines.

[Art Mann]

There are small time bandsaw mill operators where I live who will mill quarter sawn, rift sawn or flat sawn lumber to order. You just have to pay them a lot more to cut rift or quarter sawn. You also have to wait a long time. I am waiting for some quarter sawn Sycamore right now. If you tell them you want quarter sawn pine or fir, they will know what you mean whether it is hardwood or not. You almost never see quarter sawn lumber at the big box stores around here even occasionally. The reason is they buy cheap lumber from logs that are too small. That is why you normally see the pith in a large percentage of the pieces. It takes a big log to yield much vertical grain wood.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Art - well said. Spot-on.

[Ted Calver]

Maybe pay a little more and use LVL.
http://www.homebuilders.org/file_depot/0-10000000/0-10000/48/folder/27032/MAB%200703%20pgs%2048-59.pdf

[Prashun Patel]

Dan-

I'm gonna step back for a second and ask if we're over-engineering this.

My house is a cookie cutter big-box builder house. My basement was finished by a contractor. I'm certain NONE of the framing lumber in my home was picked out with intention. I just don't think it matters that much.

Before this thread, I would have just gone to a reputable lumber dealer and asked for 10ft framing lumber. If it arrived and looked to be in bad condition, I would have sent it back. Else, I'd just have used it. I just doubt you'll have an issue with this strategy.

[Phil Thien]

Dan-

I'm gonna step back for a second and ask if we're over-engineering this.

My house is a cookie cutter big-box builder house. My basement was finished by a contractor. I'm certain NONE of the framing lumber in my home was picked out with intention. I just don't think it matters that much.

Before this thread, I would have just gone to a reputable lumber dealer and asked for 10ft framing lumber. If it arrived and looked to be in bad condition, I would have sent it back. Else, I'd just have used it. I just doubt you'll have an issue with this strategy.

I think everything you said is absolutely true with the exception that, regular customers of a yard will probably get pretty consistent quality materials because the yard knows that they'll accept and what they'll send back.

I think as a homeowner, it would pay to visit the yard and take a look at what they have. Let them show you what your dollars will buy and decide if you'd be happy with the stuff before having it delivered.

This would be doing the yard a solid, as well, as it will avoid a lot of possible confusion and costs on their end.

[Dan Hintz]

Dan-

I'm gonna step back for a second and ask if we're over-engineering this.

My house is a cookie cutter big-box builder house. My basement was finished by a contractor. I'm certain NONE of the framing lumber in my home was picked out with intention. I just don't think it matters that much.

Before this thread, I would have just gone to a reputable lumber dealer and asked for 10ft framing lumber. If it arrived and looked to be in bad condition, I would have sent it back. Else, I'd just have used it. I just doubt you'll have an issue with this strategy.

Me? Over-engineer? Pfft! ;)

I want straight because I know what a royal PITA it is to attach drywall to a stud when you're not quite sure where the centerline lies hidden behind that sheet. Even worse, if you're trying to attach something to the stud wall after the wall is mudded/painted. I'll happily pay a premium to get wood I can count on.

But I'm not sold on any one method just yet...

[Prashun Patel]

You sound like you've built walls before. I framed out my basement bathroom, and I conclude that 'stick' framing is kind of designed to keep things true enough, especially when adding cross members for cabinet nailing and once drywalled. Reasonable 2x4's are flexible enough in their thickness that they can be moved into submission enough to tame reasonable twist or bow. As for crook, I just don't find that 2x4's are guilty once acclimated. Especially in a basement which doesn't get raking light, I doubt you'd notice any minor bow in the walls.

You might just do better to order extra regular stuff and discard/return all the offenders.

In lieu of hard-to-find-or-expensive qs 10-foot framing lumber, is it stupid to make 10 footers by sistering 2 flatsawn 8-footers? I mean, they'd keep each other honest, give you a super wide nailing footprint for drywall and cabinets and would only be skinny at the top and bottom 1foot respectively.

I know, I'm back to over-engineering, but, I'm one of those too.

[scott vroom]

Me? Over-engineer? Pfft! ;)

I want straight because I know what a royal PITA it is to attach drywall to a stud when you're not quite sure where the centerline lies hidden behind that sheet. Even worse, if you're trying to attach something to the stud wall after the wall is mudded/painted. I'll happily pay a premium to get wood I can count on.

But I'm not sold on any one method just yet...

Dan, you're overthinking this. Have you checked with your local lumberyard for availability of 10' #1 structural fir studs? They're readily available out here at quality lumber yards. If your concern is even spacing for drywall then simply cut a pile of 14.5" 2 x 4 blocking and put one midpoint between the studs (assuming 16OC). No need for qtr sawn. No need for metal. LVL's...Whaaaa?

Time to quit talkin' and start chalkin' :D

[Art Mann]

I agree that Dan may be worrying a little too much about straight lumber. On the other hand, I have had to deal with warped and twisted studs in my house and a few others I have worked on. It is much better to use good material in the first place rather than fix bad material after assembly.

When someone asks a specific question, I try to provide a specific answer, even if it I don't think it is a good idea. In this case, Dan is looking for ultra premium 10 foot studs. In my town, there are two ways to get them. (1) Special order premium lumber from a good lumber yard. They typically don't carry it in stock. (2) Hire a small local saw miller to cut and dry quarter sawn lumber to order.

[Lee Schierer]

For reference, the basement is roughly 2,300 square feet, completely unfinished. I expect roughly 1/4 of it to be my new workshop, 1/2 to be split between a media room and general lounging area, and the final 1/4 to be split between a bathroom, mini wine cellar, and some as-of-yet undefined area.

I would caution against metal studs in a basement application as they will tend to rust if there is any moisture, running wiring can be more difficult than with wood and hanging anything off the walls in the future is more difficult. Better to use the blue treated wood that is mold resistant, insuring that your wood is installed with appropriate vapor barriers.

[Dan Hintz]

You sound like you've built walls before.
The entire basement in the old house. Ripped everything out the last guy did (poorly... non-PT against the floor, which later rotted due to water instrusion), fixed all gaps/holes, DryLocked wherever possible, insulated everything with extruded foam to double as a vapor barrier, then set up new stud walls. I offset the wall from the insulation a couple of inches to allow easy installation of electrical and plumbing and used the plastic clips meant for holding multi-cable runs to metal stud walls (which is why I'm stunned I didn't think of it myself)... as I fixed or added items, I could quickly rip out the electrical and rerun it, as necessary, simply by unclipping the plastic ties. I'm definitely doing that option again.


Dan, you're overthinking this. Have you checked with your local lumberyard for availability of 10' #1 structural fir studs?
I have not, which is why I asked here if that was the proper place to be looking for such items. Now that I've narrowed down the proper places to start, when time permits (this weekend?) I can start visiting them.


I agree that Dan may be worrying a little too much about straight lumber. On the other hand, I have had to deal with warped and twisted studs in my house and a few others I have worked on. It is much better to use good material in the first place rather than fix bad material after assembly.
Exactly! I initially did plenty of twisting, pushing, tweaking, etc. trying to force a board into compliance. In the end, it's just easier to get a straight freakin' board in the first place and not fight with it. I'd rather spend my time building than waste it trying to make wood comply.


I would caution against metal studs in a basement application as they will tend to rust if there is any moisture, running wiring can be more difficult than with wood and hanging anything off the walls in the future is more difficult. Better to use the blue treated wood that is mold resistant, insuring that your wood is installed with appropriate vapor barriers.
Fair point... even galvanized isn't impervious. I am certainly leaning back towards wood, I just need to find a place that stocks a good batch and is willing to deliver.




Looks like I may be in the basement this evening getting some rough measurements on how many sticks I'll need. Best to get it all moved in as summer starts rather than waiting for another winter like we just had :p

[Mike Null]

I would be in favor of metal studs. I've used 10' steel before with good success and have hung pretty heavy loads on them as well. I would imagine that your building code will require pressure treated base plates.

Don't forget sound insulation.

[scott vroom]

Dan, take a look at Weyerhaeuser Framer Series lumber: http://www.woodbywy.com/lumber/weyerhaeuser-framer-series-lumber/

It's their best grade of dimensional wood lumber. Warranted to stay straight. Wallbrook Mill & Lumber Co. near Baltimore can order it, takes 2 days. Don Hildebrand quoted me $6.53 per 10'. They're located in Cockeysville....probably close enough to deliver for a reasonable charge. Maybe you could find someone closer to your town.

As others have mentioned, make sure to use a PT base plate regardless of wall material used.

Edit: Don Hildebrand at Wallbrook Mill & Lumber emailed me that delivery from their yard to your town would be $30-40...that's very reasonable.

[Kent A Bathurst]

.........Warranted to stay straight...... $6.53 per 10'......

Almost $1.00/BF. :eek: Stuff had darn well better stay straight!!

[Dan Hintz]

Well, THAT was depressing... just came back from the lumberyard a few miles from the house. The guy took me out to the yard to view a sample load... I kid you not when I say nearly 50% had the pith in, and easily 50% of what was left had serious circles. It's like the entire load as cut from 6" diameter trees! NOT impressed... but delivery was only $7 :rolleyes: Home Depot and Lowes have significantly better stock, if that tells you anything.



Scott, looking at the Weyehaeuser site now...



Mike, I'm thinking Roxul Safe'n'Sound in the joists, spray foam on the outer walls (concrete), and undecided on all of the inner walls for sound deadening.

[Mark Stutz]

What is the cost of metal studs compared to wood? No worries about them staying straight.

I've never heard of them used for residential use, but they seem to be used almost exclusively now for commercial use.

[scott vroom]

Mike, I'm thinking Roxul Safe'n'Sound in the joists, spray foam on the outer walls (concrete), and undecided on all of the inner walls for sound deadening.

Dan, any of the rock wool products will do a good job of sound deadening in a std 2 x 4 wall but will perform much better if woven between staggered 2 x 4's on a 2 x 6 plate. This eliminates the considerable sound transmission that occurs through the studs and screws.

[Pat Barry]

Me? Over-engineer? Pfft! ;)

I want straight because I know what a royal PITA it is to attach drywall to a stud when you're not quite sure where the centerline lies hidden behind that sheet. Even worse, if you're trying to attach something to the stud wall after the wall is mudded/painted. I'll happily pay a premium to get wood I can count on.

But I'm not sold on any one method just yet...
Holding the 2x4's at their proper distances midspan is another function of the blocking.

[Pat Barry]

You sound like you've built walls before. I framed out my basement bathroom, and I conclude that 'stick' framing is kind of designed to keep things true enough, especially when adding cross members for cabinet nailing and once drywalled. Reasonable 2x4's are flexible enough in their thickness that they can be moved into submission enough to tame reasonable twist or bow. As for crook, I just don't find that 2x4's are guilty once acclimated. Especially in a basement which doesn't get raking light, I doubt you'd notice any minor bow in the walls.

You might just do better to order extra regular stuff and discard/return all the offenders.

In lieu of hard-to-find-or-expensive qs 10-foot framing lumber, is it stupid to make 10 footers by sistering 2 flatsawn 8-footers? I mean, they'd keep each other honest, give you a super wide nailing footprint for drywall and cabinets and would only be skinny at the top and bottom 1foot respectively.

I know, I'm back to over-engineering, but, I'm one of those too.
The 2x4's that have some bow in them that is perpendicular to the 3.5 " face is no sweat, the blocking easily takes care of that. Any 2x4 with twist or with bow perpendicular to the 1.5" face should be sorted out. Use those pieces for the blocking.

Oh yeah. If you do get this stuff from HD you will naturally be picking and sorting. Go in during off hours and you can spend all day doing this if you want and get what you want.

[Kent A Bathurst]

It's like the entire load as cut from 6" diameter trees! NOT impressed...

Not "like" they were cut from 6" diameter. They very probably were.

The mills have machines called "small log processors". Rather than going through multiple processing steps, for the small diameter, you shove one in and out comes a finished 2x4. Plus bark and chips. At a staggeringly high speed. Lets them use the small diameters without tying up the capacity of the larger mill equipment.

And - recognize that it is a virtual certainty that the studs you see have come from eastern Canada. There are "sawmills" and there are "stud mills". Two completely different critters. They use two different raw materials. Different capabilities - rare to find 16' coming out of a stud mill - they simply are not set up to handle the longer lengths.

The SPF trees are farmed, and they grow like weeds. THey are harvested when it makes economic sense to feed the studmill monster, and are replanted. The next gen does not have much time on this earth before they follow the destiny of their predecessors........

The good news/bad news bit:

The bad news is this ain't ever gonna produce what you are looking for. The good news is the low cost of framing lumber, due to the very efficient conversion of trees into stocked shelves at the BORG.


Holding the 2x4's at their proper distances midspan is another function of the blocking.

True. And one other important function. I am not an expert in fire codes - national nor local - but I do know for a fact that there are many places where the maximum allowed clear vertical run is 8' [or so]. You get above that, and you must put in blocking between all studs as a fire break - anywhere that reduces the clear run to 8' or less.

Dan - you might wanna check that out........or, mebbe not, depending on your preference to be able to wall it up and say "Huh? What?" ;)

[Peter Quinn]

I am not an expert in fire codes - national nor local - but I do know for a fact that there are many places where the maximum allowed clear vertical run is 8' [or so]. You get above that, and you must put in blocking between all studs as a fire break - anywhere that reduces the clear run to 8' or less.

Dan - you might wanna check that out........or, mebbe not, depending on your preference to be able to wall it up and say "Huh? What?" ;)

In my area its at the top and bottom of every wall cavity and every 10' vertical maximum in taller walls.

[Peter Quinn]

Correct.

I think that comes down to a semantics issue for our purposes. They are the same cut, same grain structure.

I was speaking from a pragmatic standpoint. You are correct in terms of the grading handbooks.


Totally semantics, exactly the same thing, vaguely annoying to boot, but when you get 200 pages of architectural specs on a big project, and you have to order that material from a major manufacturer, they wont recognize your order if you don't use the proper semantics. Silly, bureaucratic, but very specific. I used to work for a guy that made hardwood flooring, occasionally sold softwood products and often supplied millwork items made of both, so we had to order that material. You can look through manufacturers catalogues for days and not find QSDF T&G porch decking. Doesn't exist. Its like going to France and ordering French fries. Not what they call them event hough they are the same thing exactly. I wonder how this came to be?

Art mentioned small local mills.....all bets are off there, the major trade organizations are not compulsory nor are their rules, individuals are free to make up their own terms, grades, and rules and often do IME. To me it matters little what they call it as long as you get that you want and understand what you are getting.

[Peter Quinn]

I would caution against metal studs in a basement application as they will tend to rust if there is any moisture, running wiring can be more difficult than with wood and hanging anything off the walls in the future is more difficult. Better to use the blue treated wood that is mold resistant, insuring that your wood is installed with appropriate vapor barriers.

Ive been looking for the blue wood for years, other than on TV where do you find it? Her in CT I've yet to see it in the local yards or bog boxes at all.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Totally semantics, exactly the same thing, vaguely annoying to boot, but when you get 200 pages of architectural specs.........

Yeah, buddy. I could stop reading right here [but I did finish it]. I have been down that rabbit hole before. You got no argument from me.

Whatever forum those guys hang out on - if you find it, let me know so I won't ever go there even by accident. ;)

[Dan Hintz]

Possibly this weekend I will stop by the local 84 Lumber and see about ordering some of those Framing timbers from Weyerhaeuser mentioned earlier. If the price is right, it'll be worth it for the reduced trouble.

I'll dig into the max span before blocking is needed... I have plenty of 8' 2x4s to cut up ;)

[Brian Hale]

When they built my shop/garage i asked why they put blocking in and they said Maryland required it at 8' as a fire break. Also came in handy when i hung OSB on the walls.

[Mark Wooden]

Dan-

I'm gonna step back for a second and ask if we're over-engineering this.

My house is a cookie cutter big-box builder house. My basement was finished by a contractor. I'm certain NONE of the framing lumber in my home was picked out with intention. I just don't think it matters that much.

Before this thread, I would have just gone to a reputable lumber dealer and asked for 10ft framing lumber. If it arrived and looked to be in bad condition, I would have sent it back. Else, I'd just have used it. I just doubt you'll have an issue with this strategy.

Exactly.....
Looking for all VG lumber, as great as it would be, would be largely a big waste of your time that you could spend partitioning off your basement( huge by the way, I'm jealous;-) ). VG lumber warps also, just maybe in a different direction. Most all lumber will be fairly straight when it comes off the truck, warpage usually starts when it's drying.
Crown your material, nail the studs in bowed all the same way, add blocking where putting up fixtures and cabinets, and try not to wait too long before getting your drywall up; it helps to keep the studs from walking too much.
I'm not saying just use anything , of course you want to cull the really bad stuff out- anything with a knot 2/3's across,anything twisted while it's still wet etc. But you're not going to find a load of clear VG 2x4's because the trees just aren't big enough any more.
And you can trim out with steel studs; use a single/double 2x shoe plate under the bottom track, line doorway openings with 2x's or use trim screws. Hang cabinets with the proper screws for steel studding. You can even use a thicker gauge stud in cabinet areas if you're concerned about weight.

[scott vroom]

Ive been looking for the blue wood for years, other than on TV where do you find it? Her in CT I've yet to see it in the local yards or bog boxes at all.

I've not seen that Bluwood out here on the left coast either. Green PT is common for plates on slab, and it would be wise to use sill gasket beneath the plates unless you're certain there exists a visqueen or rigid foam vapor barrier between the earth and the slab. Even then I'd recommend using it, particularly in a basement where moisture can enter from the side. PT is rot resistant, but the studs aren't and the sill gasket will prevent ground moisture from wicking through the plate into the studs.

In my area, fire blocking is required in stud walls >8' in height. The blocking is typically centered vertically, but can be place anywhere providing it meets the 8' rule.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Ive been looking for the blue wood for years, other than on TV where do you find it? Her in CT I've yet to see it in the local yards or bog boxes at all.

The "blue wood" is lumber that has been treated with borates. The treatment itself is colorless, so they add a blue dye so it shows up visually.

Borates do not "fix" in the wood, so they can only be used for interior applications - if used outdoors, the rain will wash the chemicals out of the wood, making the treatment useless.

Borates are, generally, less expensive than standard PT lumber. It is very good at stopping the formosan termite, which is in gulf coast region. There, it is routinely used for the entire framing - walls, sheathing, etc. YOu need to treat the rest of the structure because formosan can bypass blockages and go to the fresh wood, unlike the normal termite, which is stopped by the sill plate.

So - the cost difference v standard adds up when you gotta do the whole house. You don't see it very much in other regions because of its limitations to indoors - from managing inventories, it is better for the retailers to stick to traditional PT, and sell the small amount of std PT for sill plates only - no requirement for treating beyond the sill plates outside formosan territory. It doesn't do anything the regular PT won't do, and it is more limited in what you can use it for - inside walls.

[Rich Engelhardt]

There's an 84 Lumber over in Mt Airy and one in Randallstown.
If you haven't been in an 84 Lumber in a few years, you might want to go see what they are like.

All of them around here (NE Ohio) closed up after losing the game of trying to go head to head with Lowes and Home Depot (and Carter Lumber).
They just began to reopen a lot of their stores and they say they cater more to the professional than to the DIY'er.

I haven't had a chance to go in and see - they reopened late last Fall and I've had no reason to go there so far.

I know, I know - - 84 Lumber used to be the pits. If there was anything worse than a borg, 84 would have been a Super borg. They may have changed though.

[Dan Hintz]

There's an 84 Lumber over in Mt Airy and one in Randallstown.

Funny you should mention that. We actually went to the Mt. Airy one a couple of hours ago (after calling the Randallstown one). HD sells 2x4x10 for $4.22 around here, and we all know how much I enjoy thumbing through their awesome inventory. 84 Lumber said the Weyerhaeuser Framer Series lumber would be $4.40/stick. So, for a 4% price increase, I can get an entire hack (just shy of 300 sticks) of quality, guaranteed-free-of-warpage lumber delivered to my door. I think my decision has been made for me :)

Thanks for all of the help, fellas :)

[Mike Cutler]

Ive been looking for the blue wood for years, other than on TV where do you find it? Her in CT I've yet to see it in the local yards or bog boxes at all.

Peter

We have mountains of that fire treated/resistant "blue wood" at Millstone, but I don't think that just anybody can buy it, or that it can be installed in a living space in Connecticut,( neither can PT).
It's also very expensive, especially the laminated beams and 4x8 sheets.
I'll ask where they get it, if you're really looking to find some. The fire retardant paint we use would probably be cheaper though.

[Jerome Stanek]

Metal studs is he way to go. you don't put backing from the floor but between the metal studs just short pieces.

[Rich Engelhardt]

84 Lumber said the Weyerhaeuser Framer Series lumber would be $4.40/stick. So, for a 4% price increase, I can get an entire hack (just shy of 300 sticks) of quality, guaranteed-free-of-warpage lumber delivered to my door.Excellent!
That makes me want to drive over to 84 and check out what they have. I might be in the market for materials in a few weeks.

[Dave Zellers]

Thanks for all of the help, fellas :)
Well, shoot. I didn't get to chime in.

But to reiterate the best advice:

Buy good stock (kinda the whole point of your post :D )
Blocking. On 10 foot walls, consider two rows of blocking. It will help tie all the framing together and reduce individualism.
Frame and block a wall before building the next wall. The less time the framed wall sits open the better. Even sheetrock will help inhibit studs from expressing themselves.

[Thomas love]

Dan, 18 gauge metal studs , no blocking necessary , use drill tip screws to fasten anything you want to hang on them . I install cabinetry and such in commercial structures often and would not hesitate to use them in home , dead straight and as far as rust , if you have that much moisture in the walls you have much bigger problems outside the walls ,