Sharpening for a novice - equipment selection.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

I have to think hard before buying sharpening equipment. I have gotten most of the necessary power tools for working with wood, but now I want to slow down a little and wade into the hand tools world. I have an old Stanley #3 handyman plane, a Miller Falls #4 equivalent that I am cleaning up, and a Sjobergs Elite workbench. The Stanley didn’t come with an iron, so I bought one used. The Miller Falls has all its parts, including iron. Both of the blades aren’t sharp, so I think my first order of business is to get them sharpened.

I’ve read a lot of threads on SMC about sharpening. It seems challenging and confusing, so many choices as far as methods and equipment. As of now, I consider just buying Shapton stones; 1500, 5000, and 8000 to start with. These will allow me to sharpen plane blades and chisels.

But what if I want or need to sharpen knives, etc? Wouldn’t a Tormek be a better choice? These are the questions I ask myself. I’m not one to fret over equipment. I’d rather spend time wood working to create a piece. Tools are means to an end for me. However, in the world of sharpening, making a more informed decision at the start is important.

So, any word of wisdom for a novice?

[Robert Hazelwood]

I have those Shapton stones (except 1000 grit instead of 1500) and they are excellent for pretty much anything I need to sharpen- planes, chisels, knives, axes, etc. The only thing you'd really need is a coarser stone or two for re-profiling and removing big knicks from edges, etc. And some kind of stone that will flatten the Shaptons. You can get coarse diamond stones, which will work pretty well. Or you can simply use sandpaper stuck to something flat. You can go as coarse as 40 grit this way.

I don't have a Tormek and don't really see a need for one. Knives are generally easier to sharpen than woodworking tools, IMO. On occasions where I needed to remove serious amounts of metal, I have used a 4x36 belt sander. A bench grinder would do as well.

[Patrick Harper]

Go for the Shapton Pro's over the standard glass stones. Like Robert, I prefer the 1000 to the 1500.

[Jim Koepke]

For almost all of my woodworking tools 1000, 4000 and 8000 grit water stones will do the job. If something coarser is needed, then some 80 grit paper on a known flat surface will do the job.

Being in Sacramento you will not have to worry as much about the freezing inside my shop that has me using oilstones in the winter.

jtk

[Mike Cherry]

I have shapton pro 1k,2k, 8k, and a Naniwa Snow White. I only use the 1k and Snow White for regular honing. The 2k is rarely used as it was supposed to be my middle stone but I always forget about it.

I flatten with an Extra Course DMT diamond stone.

When I wear my 1k out, I intend to replace it with diamond stone. Eventually, everything in my shop will be diamonds. If nothing else, I can avoid flattening stones all the time.

[Jim Matthews]

Do you have a sink in your shop?

If not, consider one of the methods that uses
oil as the lubricant, instead.

Hauling a bucket to the basement is no fun at all.

You can get a very good edge, and quickly
with just two oilstones, and they're easy to keep clean.

http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/content/oil-stones

[Marc Seguin]

I agree with Jim. I started with water stones, but I've switched to Arkansas oil stones now. I found the water stones too much maintenance and mess. They did cut faster though.

My wife bought me a 3 stone set (soft, hard, black) from Best sharpening stones for Christmas. If you wanted to spend even less getting a medium/fine India combo stone like Lee Valley carries and then a black Arkansas would do you quite well. I also use a block of MDF with Veritas green compound on it as a strop, but that's just icing on the cake. I used it as the final step even when I was using water stones.

Sharpening is a very personal subject to many, but it really doesn't matter how you get there. Just pick a system that appeals to you and get a keen edge.

[Kala Raymond]

I'm really happy with the DMT large diamond stones. They're 10" x 4" large enough to flatten a #4 plane sole. I have extra course/course on one stone and fine/extra fine on the other. I finish my final hone on a king 8000 Japanese stone. The DMT stones can be purchased from kitchen supply stores for a bit less than they are available at any woodworking store I've seen them in. The stone holder that DMT offers is quite effective and works with both small and large diamond stones.

I use the veritas guide and it has served me well for many years.

[Jim Koepke]

Do you have a sink in your shop?

If not, consider one of the methods that uses
oil as the lubricant, instead.

Hauling a bucket to the basement is no fun at all.

There is no sink in my shop. An old 1 gallon milk jug works fine for hauling water. A small plastic tub is fine for soaking. A spray bottle is handy for keeping the stones wet. Water stones can make a mess. Mine have their own place where they can be messy.

Oil stones are also a good choice. There is a place, away from the water stones, for my oilstones.

Is there anyone you know who may have some different stones you could try?

The different media all do the same thing, it is just that they do it differently and a different feel when they remove metal.

jtk

[Brian Hale]

I've got a large selection of waterstones from norton, shapton and King along with an abundance of oil stones, but over the years I've grown tired if the maintenance and mess they require. For the last 4 years I've been using DMT diamond stones, XX coarse, coarse, super fine and a translucent Arkansas stone. The DMT's are used dry and a couple drops of mineral spirits on the Arkansas. I also rely on the veritas mk2 guide and use a marker on the various blades to note the angle i hone them at.

All of the above stays in a wood box with a rag over it to keep most of the dust/shavings out and can usually be found on my bench. simple honing takes 2-3 minutes and removing nicks takes about 5 minutes and i do it all right where I'm working. No mess or dirty fingers covered with oil or water that gets transferred to the tool or wood.

I do have a separate area with a grinder and selection of adhesive backed abrasives that i use for serious repairs and reprofiling but I seldom go there.

My oldest DMT stone is about 12 years old and still works great.

Brian :)

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Don't get the Tormek. It is fussy to set up and hard to justify the price versus a good set of Shaptons. I use my Tormek mainly for sharpening planer knives (the electric variety), gouges, and machetes. If I happen to have it set up with the 4k Japanese stone I might sharpen a knife on it but then will finish it on waterstones.

[paul cottingham]

I get terrific results with a viel belt grinder 3 grits of belts (essentially a coarse -rarely used- medium, and a fine -used most of the time- and a leather strop.) I finish on a Bester 10000. I use a strop for touch ups.
Dare I say it, I use a jig as well.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have to think hard before buying sharpening equipment. I have gotten most of the necessary power tools for working with wood, but now I want to slow down a little and wade into the hand tools world. I have an old Stanley #3 handyman plane, a Miller Falls #4 equivalent that I am cleaning up, and a Sjobergs Elite workbench. The Stanley didn’t come with an iron, so I bought one used. The Miller Falls has all its parts, including iron. Both of the blades aren’t sharp, so I think my first order of business is to get them sharpened.

I’ve read a lot of threads on SMC about sharpening. It seems challenging and confusing, so many choices as far as methods and equipment. As of now, I consider just buying Shapton stones; 1500, 5000, and 8000 to start with. These will allow me to sharpen plane blades and chisels.

But what if I want or need to sharpen knives, etc? Wouldn’t a Tormek be a better choice? These are the questions I ask myself. I’m not one to fret over equipment. I’d rather spend time wood working to create a piece. Tools are means to an end for me. However, in the world of sharpening, making a more informed decision at the start is important.

So, any word of wisdom for a novice?

First, decide (1) what you want to sharpen and (2) how you want to do it.

If you want to sharpen knives, I find that the work sharp knife sharpener to be very fast and pretty much idiot proof. Here is a link to their site, not that I would probably buy it there, but you can see what it is.

http://www.worksharptools.com/knife/featured-products-home-knife/work-sharp-knife-and-tool-sharpener.html

I have not had difficulty sharpening knives on water stones, but the worksharp is very fast, and not much more than the short and long knife jig combined. If you end up with water stones, you can certainly try your hand at sharpening using the water stones. I watched some videos and had good results when I tried it. Then, you can steel the knives to keep them tuned up.

I do own a Tormek, and if it died today, I would start looking for a new one immediately (even if I do not use it that often). For things like plane blades and chisels, I do the following:



Flatten the back using a water stone, diamond plate, or sand paper. OK, I don't use sand paper often anymore.
Establish a hollow grind using the Tormek
Finish the blade on water stones.
While using, perform fast touch-ups on water stones.
After some time, go back to step (2) and reset the hollow grind on the Tormek.


Why do I like it? It is easy to free hand on the water stones (or whatever) with a hollow grind (at least for me), and I have results that work for me.

I started with sandpaper on a flat surface with a sharpening jig. I had decent results and the entry price was low. If you lived closer, you could wander over and give some things a try to see what works best for you. The biggest issue (in my mind) is that a Tormek is a big chunk of money. I bout a lot of stuff before I found what worked for me. For example, I purchased a work sharp system but I had troubles with it (and some people LOVE it). I ended up giving it to a friend who achieves much better results than what ever it was that he had been doing previously (he lives far enough away and I see him rarely so I don't really know what he was doing before).

Especially with the Shapton's, you can just spritz them and go. One sharpener told me that he used diamonds (almost exclusively).

Finally, I LOVE my Tormek, but I do not have space to keep it always setup. So, when I do use my Tormek, I do lots of sharpening, and then I keep them sharp using water stones. Oh, and when I have something in really bad shape, I use a dry slow speed grinder. I bought a junk unit (at least it feels like junk) from WoodCraft, but, it does the job and was inexpensive. When I need to do some serious reshaping, I use it. I need to be very careful about over-heating the steel, but, it is much faster than the Tormek and certainly faster than a water stone.

So, have you ever tried to free hand sharpen on a hollow-grind? Some people just free hand sharpen without a hollow grind. The idea is really, "what can I do that is fast while I am working?" I liked the hollow grind because it kind of sets itself... or, in other words, I found it easy to do and your mileage may vary. Do you know someone with a Tormek that could hollow grind for you so that you could give it a try?


Here are some simple sharpening jigs (I own both of these, or at least something very similar to these):
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43072,43078,51868&p=51868
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/blade-sharpening/blade-sharpening-side-clamping-honing-guide-?node=4203

I own a flat sharpening surface that I purchased at woodcraft, but you would probably be as well served (and perhaps cheaper) for use with sandpaper with a thick piece of glass. More breakable, but probably cheaper. Then, if you use adhesive backed sandpaper, you can just stick it on with multiple grits at the same time and go for it.
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/144838/granite-surface-plate-9-x-12-x-2-a-grade.aspx

I started with sand paper and worked from there. I started relatively cheaply, and then I threw more money at it as I tried different things.

[Robert Eiffert]

A two sided ( Coarse/Fine ) Crystolon or India have a place. A lot of times a "not sharp" iron or chisel is a far sight from needing a hard Arkansas and getting to as sharp as a Fine India can be is a lot less frustrating and more productive than worrying about next steps early on.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've got my procedure down to the point where I cruise through this rapidly;

put the stones in the sink; run water over then.

Set the bevel angle, then cut first on a DMT coarse.

Bring out the 1k king stone, flatten it, take out the coarse makes in the blade.

switch to the Naniwa Snow White, flatten it, remove the 1k makes.

Flip the blade over wipe off the wire edge, then build a wire edge again and smooth it off with a couple strokes. Done.


everything from jointer plane blades to 1/8" chisels...

[Archie England]

All good info thus far....

I have a Tormek (old green one): it taught me what sharp and repeatable results could look like. I have a low speed grinder: it works way faster than a Tormek; but I have damaged some edges by tempering it. That never happens with a Tormek. I struggle with consistent edge improvement with sandpaper; and, don't like how my paper wears unevenly, etc. This method really didn't take with me. Ceramic stones, OTOH, really do work for me. Once I learned how to free hand (thanks Chris Griggs), the Tormek standard for sharp got eclipsed!!! I love sharpening with water ceramics or with quality oil stones. For me, the mess is a bit more with water stones but I get a lot sharper, faster with water stones than with oil. And, my water stones cut/hone with a lot more tactile feel than my oil stones.

As mentioned above, you need coarse grinding material, medium, and fine. The methods, however, work mostly as well, though YMMV. Beware of fast grinders if you have a heavy touch. Beware of the Tormek if you're expecting fast results; and beware of all stones if you're expecting one stone to do it all. Every method has it's costs--both obvious and hidden. Pick the one that works for you. If you're near another Creeker, then head over and check out his/her available favorites. Seeing/experiencing these systems under the supervision of one who knows is so much better than rewatching a great youTube depiction.

Have fun!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

everything from jointer plane blades to 1/8" chisels...

Brian, you state that you set the bevel angle. May I assume that you are using a guide? Please enlighten me. Also, if you are using a guide, does it work well with a 1/8" chisel. Just curious.

[Brian Holcombe]

I do the 1/8" chisels by hand, I use a guide for everything larger.

[Winton Applegate]

I am reading these Roy Underhill books (http://www.amazon.com/Underhills-Woodwrights-Classic-Collection-Omnibus-ebook/dp/B0085IZQRQ/ref=sr_1_6?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1426047393&sr=1-6&keywords=roy+underhill) that I bought for my Kindle E-Reader.
First off, to get off topic right away, I would recommend buying them separately and or in paper form. The set is difficult to navigate by using the contents pages.
Other than that the Kindle version works great and I am having a great time reading them and savoring the experience.
You can also find these books in the local public library.

Roy gets all into the aspects of harvesting green wood off the stump and splitting it green etc. If you are never going to do that then you may want to borrow the books rather than buy. I will probably never work green wood, living as I do where there isn't much in the way of oaks etc., but I am an addict woodworking book reader and these were next on the list. Like I said . . . I paid for them and am having a great time reading them. He is a fun guy in print as he is on the TV screen.

OK what I wanted to say : two things . . . first I am going to be quiet about equipment and stay out of the way, for a change, and


any word of wisdom for a novice?
I am going to quote Roy . . . he has just put into words something I would have said here but he painted it much more vividly than I could have :
Roy said :
Since common plane irons work with their bevels down toward the wood, it is essential that this bevel be flat rather than convex. To see the problem with a convex bevel, put your index finger on the page and push it forward as though it were a plane iron. Unless your fingernails are much longer than mine the edge will not contact the page. This is exactly what happens with an ill-ground or dull plane iron.
end quote.

I would add . . . even on a microscopic level this is still true and relevant.

[Wakahisa Shinta]

Thanks everyone. This discussion consolidates my thinking. I'm going to just focus on sharpening plane blades and chisels for now. I am partial to water stones because I grew up watching my father and family members using them. Will be getting Shapton Pro 1000, 5000, and 8000 from toolfromjapan.com (the 8000 disappeared! :confused:). A diamond plate to flatten these stones.

My shop is also my garage, which has a large utility sink I installed when we first moved in. Maybe I will build a cabinet next to it to serve as a sharpening station.

I am thinking of free hand sharpening. Is this not advisable for a novice?

[Thomas Schneider]

I first found out what sharp really was when I read about the "scary sharp" method of sharpening. I went and purchased paper from 60 grit all the way up to some ridiculously fine medium from Lee Valley. That along with the Lee Valley honing jig worked very well for me. The results were incredible and repeatable which is very important! But I soon grew tired of having to replace worn out paper so I moved on to water stones. The stones provided me with the same level or better of sharpness (using the same jig) without the recurring cost of the paper, but unlike you, I don't have a sink down in my shop and so I got fed up with the mess I made with the water stones. At about that time (about four years ago) on one of my way too many auction sites I saw a Tormek being sold. I had never heard of Tormek before and thought it looked neat! So I put in what I came to find out later was a ridiculously low bid and ended up winning it. I must say it took a while to work out all the nuances the Tormek has and get repeatable results, but I feel it was time well spent! Now my sandpaper is used for wood and my stones lay dry in a box under my bench. Are my chisels and plane blades as sharp as someone like Brian, Winton or David? probably not! But they are hair popping, paper slicing, end grain shaving sharp and I can get them that way much faster than I was able to with either of the previous methods. All that being said, a Tormek, even the T4 model is very expensive and if not for my luck in that auction, I probably would still be using my water stones. I think sharpening is a journey and we all end up in the right place for each of us eventually!

[Winton Applegate]

I am thinking of free hand sharpening. Is this not advisable for a novice
It is possible to get super high quality edges with out a jig sharpening Japanese bimetal single bevel chisels and plane irons. This is because the softer metal part of the blade acts like a jig and you can tell by feel when you have the bevel flat on the stone or starting to raise the soft part off which you do not want to do. The down side is with a single bevel it takes longer to abrade all that metal (the full face of the single bevel).

For Western or Euro style blades that are the same hard steel all the way across the bevel free hand sharpening is trickier and often it is desirable to put on a secondary bevel so you don’t have to abrade that whole single bevel every time you sharpen and if you think about it the wide single bevel is going to be even more difficult to keep flat because it is ALL hardened steel.

So
If you are using the Western blades on softer wood meaning like walnut and poplar and stuff then you can get away with free hand sharpening if you really concentrate and practice and hold your tongue just right and don’t step on cracks when you walk on the side walk . . . ha, ha kidding about the last bit there.

BUT
If you are going to work really hard wood and or a lot of wood; large surfaces etc like the table I am posting.
AND
OR
you are like me and could do with out all the heavy concentration and butt puckering just to do a menial every day thing that could be as easy as sweeping the floor if you use a jig then I would HIGHLY recommend using a jig, novice or pro.

[Winton Applegate]

a Tormek, even the T4 model is very expensive
I have, as I think many of us here in the forum have, spent more on stones than the full price of a new Tormek.
I have on occasion been drawn to one.
After seeing a chisel with nicks sharpened in two minutes roughly on a Tormek in the YouTube vid.
The attraction for it is back for me.
I have the Delta vertical large white wheel wet sharpener at a fraction of the cost and it is just that . . . a fraction of what is required to sharpen well and it is brain numbingly slow.

I must say I really like my Shapton stones and other water stones and really have no reason NOW to change. But it is true the Tormek is pretty cool.

[Winton Applegate]

Thomas,

Tormek . . . So I put in what I came to find out later was a ridiculously low bid and ended up winning
You suck. :)

[Brian Holcombe]

If you do alot of sharpening by hand it's worthwhile to get coarse and extra coarse diamond plates. You wont be able to take a nick out in 2 minutes but it wont take too long.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks everyone. This discussion consolidates my thinking. I'm going to just focus on sharpening plane blades and chisels for now. I am partial to water stones because I grew up watching my father and family members using them. Will be getting Shapton Pro 1000, 5000, and 8000 from toolfromjapan.com (the 8000 disappeared! :confused:). A diamond plate to flatten these stones.

My shop is also my garage, which has a large utility sink I installed when we first moved in. Maybe I will build a cabinet next to it to serve as a sharpening station.

I am thinking of free hand sharpening. Is this not advisable for a novice?

If you have not ordered as yet, an alternative is the Pro Shapton 1000 and Sigma 6000. Try just these and then, if you need a higher grit, get the Sigma 13000.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I am thinking of free hand sharpening. Is this not advisable for a novice?

It depends on the novice. My learning to sharpen was doing it freehand. The worst that can happen it to take a slice out of a water stone.

The advantage to a blade holder for sharpening is it can help if you feel a need for a bevel angle to be precise. It can also allow one to move the blade back and forth faster, helping to speed up the sharpening time.

My only use of a shop fashioned guide is when it is a blade that has a bad nick or needs a lot of metal removed. Haven't bought many of those of late.

jtk

[Thomas Schneider]

You have no Idea! Lol Thanks!

[Mel Fulks]

Agree with Jim. Otherwise fine antiques that predate those roller things must be fakes. And I can also imagine some brain
surgeon who is new to woodworking reading Winton's advice and thinking " I didn't know sharpening was so tuff...it's back
to gardening for my hobby".

[Ivan Wolder]

I have not had a chance to read the whole thread so if this has already come up please forgive me.I came across this yesterday and have been obsessed with watching and reading what he has to say.His name is Paul Sellers,and he speaks my language (I too have an accent from the colonies).He is a master craftsman and learned his craft the old fashioned way.He also takes all the frills out of things like sharpening.He is passionate about his craft and as far as I am concerned a true inspiration.Just do a search and you too can become even more inspired.

[Winton Applegate]

I can also imagine some brain
surgeon who is new to woodworking reading Winton's advice and thinking " I didn't know sharpening was so tuff...it's back
to gardening for my hobby".
I have a few responses::)


Nah . . . most surgeons have more patience and fortitude than that dude . . . otherwise they would have never survived medical school and beyond.
Yah those guys are candies; they have people sharpen all their surgical tools FOR THEM with JIGS.
Yah . . . I know what you mean . . . I once tried to teach a surgeon mechanics . . . they can't work with their hands at all . . . surgery is all mental work yah know . . . it was a bring a friend class and his wife was pretty competent though so they got through it. Long, perfect, painted nails and all. The wife not the guy.
Gardening is good. Lots of sharpening in that too. What ever pleases the guy/gal is fine with me.


Otherwise fine antiques that predate those roller things must be fakes.
You didn't read my post. I said if you work friendlier woods then free hand it.
AND
Most all them old things you mentioned (which I love by the way) were pretty friendly SOFTISH wood. Part of the reason they used so much mahogany.
I missed your posts of your large tables you plane all the time. Any links. I wanna see too.