Sliding TS Recommendations

[Chris Stormer]

I know this is going to be a pretty open ended question but I'm looking for a solid recommendation on the right sliding table saw for my situation.

My use will be breaking down 4'x8' sheets of plywood (all kinds). From what I've gathered a scoring blade will be important to me (many of the sheets will be layed up with veneer on both sides). I will need to be able to cut the long length of the sheet. (i will need to be able to break the sheet down into 8' x 1', ect). I do not have space constraints. I do not need many of the modern features. What I do needs is a workhorse. Something that is generally dependable, accurate and can hold up in a production environment. I've had a lot of luck with old iron machines but when it comes to sliding table saws I've seen a few people say the older machines were not designed to break down plywood.

I'm a little confused by the sizes of table saws because it would seem like everybody would need to be able to cut up plywood like I'm saying but some of the measurements I see on machines seem to imply they can't make the long 8' long cut. My budget is $10k for either new or used. I'm not tied to any specific brand.

I've kind of gotten myself so confused at this point which is why I'm asking for ideas.

Thanks

[David Kumm]

10K will buy most any make of used slider. Sounds like you want a 10' length, with scoring and a 49- 60" rip width. Most larger saws handle 14-16" blades and have three speeds. Some have hydraulic blade lift, ( some martins, SCMI Hydro ) and most have scoring. Scoring will be easily adjusted up and down with a lever instead of wrenches. HP will be in the 7.5-10 range. Crosscut fence should be indexed to 90 easily with at least two stops. Older Martin are always sought after if complete. Alterndorf are next in line if you can either avoid the phenolic ways or see the machine to insure they are not worn. SCMI 16 WA are very plentiful and parts are easier to source than most others. Casadei, Casolin, Holz her, Griggio are all about the same build. Panhans if you can find one are a step above but hard to find parts for. Most old iron saws are short stroke save a couple of wider c rosscut but they are huge and still limited in comparison to the newer. When you buy used Euro, budget extra for electrics and possibly the motor. I've found both fail more than the old iron stuff. I'd stay in the 8K range to allow for repairs unless you find a really pristine deal. Finally, I'd set it up with a set of airtight clamps. Look at the videos on www.airtightclamps.com.

10K will buy a decent new but not as heavy as the commercial saws described above. I'd save the extra and spend on blades and clamps. Even Proscale digital stops are in reach in your budget. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

There is also the panel saws. $10K would buy an amazing panel saw.

[Chris Stormer]

Thanks David and Mike.

@Mike, true but what I've gathered is is that the sliding table saw overall is just more flexible (and while I did say I would use it mostly for ply, I can think of a few other ways I would use it).

@David For the Martin's & Alterdorf's any specific model # suggstions. I might have a Martin T17 pretty local but

Finally (and I'm not sure if you guys can answer this hear) where do you usually do your used machine shopping? I have a couple places I look but when you say SCMI 16 WA's are plentiful and I don't see any currently for sale on even ex-fac I think maybe I'm looking in the wrong spot.

[Bill Adamsen]

Chris:

Woodweb (panelsaw sliding (http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/exchanges/machinery.cgi?CATEGORY=Panel+Saws-Sliding&submit.x=9&submit.y=7&MANUFACTURER=&KEYWORD=Or+Search+by+Keyword)), ebay, craigslist or equipment channels like you mentioned.

The logistics of shipping equipment of this size is challenging. No doubt I'll be flamed for saying this ... but, you don't want someone on the other end packing this stuff, and signing it off as "ready to go" unless they have "skin in the game" (read: support warranty) ... which they won't. So the good news is, that pretty much limits you to getting a machine you can check out yourself, participate in the loading, the haul, the delivery, the unloading and reassembly. Most of the machines Dave mentions are in the 1000kg +/- weight range. So you need a vehicle which can safely tow, and the equipment to offload and move. It is worth reading the delivery instructions from the manufacturer to get a sense of what's recommended.

Several of the companies mentioned made machines without tilt ... that wouldn't work for me ... but I know people that use them successfully. Schedule some time to visit local shops and test the way their machines work, getting acquainted with the slider action and the controls. Use that opportunity to evaluate the dust control implementation and whether the saw itself has adequate controls. Run controls on the slider end - for me - are a necessity. I personally think the hydro and electronic height and tilt are fabulous, as are digital controls and stops. I would think hard about getting another saw without those.

[David Kumm]

T17 is a neat saw but not a true slider. T72 would be 1990s, 70 and 71 earlier. Altendorf F45 is the tilting model. Many of the machines on ex factory can be found elsewhere on the web as are most dealer machines. I don't know where you are located but a slider is one machine I try to haul myself so about 300 miles would be my limit each way. That adds some cost too but most new will require additional $$ spent on shipping. You might find a seller who will rake off the table and pack but a long shot. Dave

[Peter Kelly]

I believe a new SI 350 is just a bit over $10k http://www.scmgroupna.com/us/sliding_table_saws_si_350_class. If you can't swing that much coin, I'm fairly certain the 8.5' S400 Elite S is probably within $10k. http://www.scmgroupna.com/us/sliding_table_saws_s_400_elite_s

Might also look into Casolin saws from Adwood. http://adwood.com/machinery/sizing.html

[Chris Stormer]

Thanks guys tons of great information and for sure helped point in me the right direction. @Bill taking your advice on the electronics to heart. Do you have a specific machine that you think is a cut above the rest that you think I should be looking at.

I've got a lot of heavy machinery at my factory, Mattison 202 rip saw, fabric cutters, ect so the logistics of moving the big machines, I'm pretty good with. It's a pain no doubt.

@Peter thanks for the links those are some good looking machines.

[Peter Kelly]

Unless you want a mountain of spam in your inbox, do not give your email address to Ex-Factory.

[Larry Edgerton]

Unless you want a mountain of spam in your inbox, do not give your email address to Ex-Factory.

Ditto! I am not sure about all the locations but I went through the one by Grand Rapids last year and there was a lot of clapped out junk in there. Another thing I saw was machines getting quicky "Liquid Overhauls" by guys that did not look like highly trained techs to me.

PM Eric Loza and have a chat with him if you are considering new. SCM had a special a little while ago on one that was pretty tempting. Mines 25 years old and I am thinking about it as well. I have mostly SCM/Minimax and it has treated me well, but so will most stuff once you get to that level.

[Kevin Jenness]

You seem to be set on a slider so I will not push the vertical panel saws, though I think a good one is more productive and safer while requiring less skill than a slider for making square edged rectangles. The slider is certainly more versatile and equally accurate if used carefully. David's recommendations are right on. I have worked with a couple of mid-80's Martin T-71's and they are great saws, no electronics or bells and whistles, just solid accurate saws that stay in adjustment under heavy use. We bought ours for $8500 a few years ago, and I see them in that range every so often. Personally would stay away from the more modern units dependent on electronic controls unless they can be operated manually when the circuit boards fail. Not sure where you are located, but I would suggest you make a call to Edward Papa at Simantech on Long Island if Martin interests you. He has been selling them for decades, is very helpful and knowledgeable and may have one or know of one for sale. Best luck finding a good machine.

[Keith Weber]

I have a 2001 Altendorf F45. It's an incredible saw. Extremely well-built, and they thought of everything when they designed it. It was around 1999 when they switched from phenolic ways (which could wear in a factory environment) to chromed steel ways. I've never seen a Martin in person, but watching videos, it's apparent that they're top end to -- but a lot harder to find on the used market compared to an Altendorf. A word of caution when getting a used saw of this caliber -- make sure everything works and you're not missing anything you need. Parts for those things border on insanity. I got quotes for a few small things that I wanted for my saw, but the price of a few parts was going to cost half of what I paid for the saw. I have a milling machine, 14" lathe and a TIG welder, so I decided to fab my own parts for a lot less money. Just something to think about if you don't have metal fab skills. The ELMO is the top-end F45, with CNC fences and stops. I specifically looked for one with digital readouts on the rip fence and crosscut stops, but I have to manually position them. If the digital readouts ever pack it in, I can still set them manually using the scales, so there's no down time. If you have the CNC'd fences, if something goes, then your saw is out of service until you dish out the mega bucks for parts and a technician to fly in and fix it for you. I do have the electric blade tilt, height adjustment, and scoring controls. Those are sweet!

[Justin Ludwig]

http://www.machinerymax.com/Listing/Details/511824/ALTENDORF-F45-SLIDING-TABLE-SAW

I've purchased a few tools via MachineryMax. Only problem I've had was getting a Ritter faceframe/door clamp table shipped in a timely manner. It was the rigger's fault, though, not MachinerMax.

[Martin Wasner]

If it is just going to be used for breaking down sheet stock, get a vertical panel saw. Easier to load, easier to use, if you hurt yourself on it, you've earned it. $10k can get a decent used holz-herr. A bit more will get you into a Striebig.

[Jim Becker]

Very pleased with my MiniMax S315

[Ralph Butts]

I purchased a MM S315 last year and I too am very pleased with the purchase and would do it all over again in a heartbeat.

[Jim Andrew]

Grizzly has a German made 12" slider, 6 1/2 hp, 124" crosscut. 3 phase machine, 6995. plus 255 shipping. Would be interesting to know what company builds it for Grizzly. Has the scoring blade, outrigger, everything you would expect from a euro slider.

[Keith Weber]

Grizzly has a German made 12" slider, 6 1/2 hp, 124" crosscut. 3 phase machine, 6995. plus 255 shipping. Would be interesting to know what company builds it for Grizzly. Has the scoring blade, outrigger, everything you would expect from a euro slider.

I'm not sure what exactly they're doing with that. Are they hoping that people think that because it's made in Germany, they'll be getting Martin/Altendorf build quality? Or are they assembling Chinese parts in a warehouse in Germany to justify the "Made in Germany" title? It's hard to say. Looking at the pictures on their website, it's hard to get an idea of the quality -- other than the flip stops and the stamped, crosscut fence angle gauge, both of which look very Mickey Mouse.

You usually get what you pay for. It's the company behind the manufacturing that determines the quality -- not the workers or the build location. Companies cut corners to save money. It's all about what end product they are looking for, and how much they're willing to spend to produce it. You can pay German workers to take their time and reach the level of quality buyers expect in an Altendorf/Martin, or you can pay German workers to slap together junk quickly and sloppily for low cost. You get what you pay for.

For $6995, I think I can safely say that it's not going be up to Altendorf/Martin standards. It's just way to cheap to be able to pull that off. I'm not saying that it'll be junk -- I have never seen one, so I have no idea. I've never even seen a review on one. Time will tell I guess. Hopefully somebody who's used one can chime in -- especially someone who has used a quality euro slider for comparison, and not just someone upgrading from a cheap, Asian tablesaw. Like I said, though -- you usually get what you pay for.

[Peter Kelly]

For $6995, I think we can safely say that you'd be getting a Chinese saw with a German-made sticker on the side.

[David Kumm]

When I was at IWF, all the chinese sliders looked to have been made in the same factory but are getting better all the time. not as refined but pretty stout. The decent ones are priced in the 10K range. Dave

[John Sanford]

When I was at IWF, all the chinese sliders looked to have been made in the same factory but are getting better all the time. not as refined but pretty stout. The decent ones are priced in the 10K range. Dave

David, did you get to see any of the Indian sliders? I came across one on the web recently that they're importing here for $3,995. It looked good from the pics, and the specs were good, but....

[David Kumm]

David, did you get to see any of the Indian sliders? I came across one on the web recently that they're importing here for $3,995. It looked good from the pics, and the specs were good, but....

No I didn't. 3995 for anything but a short 40" or so machine is too hard to believe. Too much going on with the machine to be made that cheap. A slider that doesn't hold it's settings would make me look for a sharp stick and an artery. Dave