Some wood just doesn't like to be planed

[Dave Beauchesne]

Am a sucker for punishment; I am in the process of of making a small wall cabinet ( Krenov style ) in Yew.
While an amateur, I can very successfully plane curly maple all day long with my type 11 5C and Veritas blade / CB combo, but this wildly contorted Yew has once again prevailed. It was from a board I bought from a fellow that stood in his shop for 20 years, and has remained surprisingly straight after rough dimensioning.
Will take it to my buddy and his drum sander.
Beautiful, full width, tapering to the edge shavings, but just enough tearout to ruin my day.
Even scraping is iffy; Yew is stringy enough that is is miserable to plane and scrape.
Thought you might enjoy the color of the wood, it is like and orangey brandy color when finished.

[Winton Applegate]

Hey ! The Sawmill is loadable again !
SWEET !
. . . and just in time for me to talk about what I love to talk about : BU and tear out.
Sanding . . . bah . . .
Sand paper is for metal working and car bodies and stuff.


LV BU . . . cutting angle on the order of 60° (12° bed + secondary bevel of 45° to 50° (or more) bevel angle) super sharp (sharpened on a jig with no ruler tricking) = no sand paper.

Do you know any one with a LV BU you could try on the plank before sliding off the tarmac into the gravel as it were ? Would be an interesting experiment.

Nice wood by the way !

[Jim Matthews]

I had the same problem with Tupelo/Black Gum from Rhode Island.

Interlocking grain makes this sort of thing nearly impossible.
I've had some decent results with a 'toothing' blade,
set to 90 degrees.

Scraping afterwards worked okay.
Soft wood is harder to handle,
go figure.

[Chuck Hart]

I took one look at the grain and said 'no wonder'. That is some really twisty grain. I can see why it was so tough to plane. In spots ity makes a 180 degree change it what looks like 2 inches. Nice color

[Winton Applegate]

Where's David Charlesworth ?
He knows about Yew.
His bench is made from the stuff.
David, old bean,
are you there ?

If nothing else cheat and wet the surface with a little water, denatured alc or paint thinner.

[Tom Vanzant]

Same with almond. It's like planing a braided hemp hawser rope!

[Pat Barry]

Yep, I'd also go to the drum sander, there's no shame in using the proper tool for the job. Once you get it back from there you might just use a card scraper with some very light passes to get the surface back to a 'neanderthal' appearance.

[Brian Thornock]

I've got a couple of exotics that I have worked recently where my planes just glide over them and won't even take a shaving. Those are the ones that get the card scraper, as the pieces were too small for a drum sander.

[Prashun Patel]

(said only in half jest)

Aw, just leave it all torn out like that.

That wood is a Stallion that wouldn't be tamed. You can tranquilize it and strap on a muzzle by running it through the drum sander, or you can leave it all beautifully scarred so the world knows what a tough bronco he is.

There's a poetry in the gnarl!

[Dave Beauchesne]

I am glad no one has recommended ' plastic wood ' filler. ( uncontrollable shudder ) .

Winton:

I have a LV smoother that also laughed at the Yew. I have a story that I can PM you because it involves ' implied profanity ' - will try to get to that a little later - very busy at home and work right now.

Thanks for the input all, but, again, Yew is a bear. Period.

Dave B

[david charlesworth]

Four ideas.

High effective pitch and very fine shavings.
I would think at least 65 degrees, either in BU or small back bevel in bench plane. Small width but 20 or 25 degrees to back.

Third, sharp scraper plane with hook and very fine shavings.

The fourth I have not tried yet, (although it smoothed "the wood from hell") the ultra close set cap iron. About 0.004" from the edge.

best wishes,
David

[Warren Mickley]

I would say there is something wrong with your cap iron configuration, Dave. While some woods are more prone to tearing than others, there is no need for high angles or scraping or sanding if you have a double iron plane.

[Chris Hachet]

I would say there is something wrong with your cap iron configuration, Dave. While some woods are more prone to tearing than others, there is no need for high angles or scraping or sanding if you have a double iron plane.

I would second this thought.

[Stewie Simpson]

I would suggest you follow David Charlesworth's suggestions as he has the greater experience working with Yew. But its your call.

Also;

Allergies & toxins associated with Yew. http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/softwoods/european-yew/

Stewie;

[david charlesworth]

Warren,

What angle do you use on the front of your cap iron, please?

David

[Warren Mickley]

I have used a rounded bevel on the cap iron for more than forty years. I have never tried a flat bevel.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Thanks for the input gentlemen; I have a Veritas A2 blade and Cap iron in my # 5 that I was using - slightest hint of camber and the factory cap iron ( which fits very well ) set at .006'' using brass shim stock.

Yew has a stringiness that I believe is the culprit, the undulating, swirling grain mocks me at this point. I will do some scraping, but I have a time constraint with this one and will likely succumb to sander / scraper to get things done -

Thanks again;

Dave B

[Tom McMahon]

I believe the factory cap iron is your problem, the modern cap irons as they come from the factory don't work. In order to get an LN to work I had to reshape the leading edge, the LV appears to have the same problem the leading edge needs to be blunted so that it pushes the shaving back towards the surface of the wood. When used sharp as they come they act as a wedge and lift the shaving making the tear out worse. The cap iron needs to hold the shaving down to the surface so the blade has the ability to cut the wood before the shaving is lifted. Also the shavings in your pictures appear a little thick. In my experience the angle on the leading edge of the cap iron is just as important as how close it is to the edge, that distance changes with the thickness of the shaving and the species of wood.

[Steve Voigt]

I have used a rounded bevel on the cap iron for more than forty years. I have never tried a flat bevel.

Warren,
Nonetheless, I imagine you could eyeball the angle of the tangent line at the point where the cap iron meets the blade. I'd be curious to know if that's in the ballpark of 45°, or something steeper.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Add another vote for a bevel up with a toothed blade. I say this for future reference- not expecting you to go buy one just for this. (If your wife is going to be reading this let me know and I will change that to say "Rush out and buy one right away" so you can let her think it is a necessity.)

I use a lot of figured woods. When the going gets tough, the tough get out the toothed blade. I use it in a bevel up jack, followed by the sharpest, most finely tuned LN #4 known to mankind, then a scraper plane or handheld card scraper. I use the #4 just until the "tooth marks" are gone, and then the scraper to finish it off.

[Winton Applegate]

Toothed blade
Malcom,
First off let me preface what I am about to say with : I have not planed all the figured woods you have and so you obviously know better than I do about all those.
Now
my experience with toothed blades was less than stellar as far as speeding along the work and dealing with tearout . . .
in my imagination I am even imagining that stringy wood is going to be perhaps ripped up all the more BECAUSE of the toothed blade.

For what little I have done I found that wetting the wood and going at it diagonal/planing across the grain with a highly cambered, OR AS DAVID CHARLSWORTH RECOMMENDED A NARROW BLADE, was hugely better for taking the surface down to the tearout then plane as normal with the modified BU or the super tuned cap iron set up. Wetting further for the heavier cuts WITH THE GRAIN if needed.
Final planing was always done dry. Wetting was to soften the surface enough to slice off significant depth.

In my view toothed blades are best on heavy end grain planing say for a real butcher block or maybe for preparing a surface for veneering and I am not so sure it is even worth it for that.

You know me; I have to keep the imbalance going here.

[Warren Mickley]

I would say steeper. The bevel of the cap iron should be rounded, and not flat, the way the bevel of the iron is.

[Winton Applegate]

So I went back and looked in David Charlesworth’s book Furniture Making Techniques.
The section on Evolution of a bench.
Thinking back now I believe his comment there on the somewhat unstable nature of Beech was what got me looking at other species of wood for my work bench.

It says the bench tops shown are from Doussie.

I could have sworn I read in his literature some place that his own bench top is made from Yew.
There are references to yew through out the two books.

Mr. Charlesworth,
Is your bench top, or a bench you used at one time made from yew ?
Or did I just flat get that wrong ?

[david charlesworth]

Winton,

A yew bench is an interesting proposition but I have never seen one.

Warren,

It would be most helpful if you could give some approximate guidance as to the angle of the leading edge of your curved cap iron.

Best wishes,
David

[david charlesworth]

Well, I did a little experiment on some difficult Yew and a 70 degree (front edge) cap iron performed much better than a 50 degree one. Front edge set approximately 0.004" from blade edge.

The range of angles given in David Weaver's article on Woodcentral (Setting a cap iron) is 50 to 80 degrees.

The Kato and Kawai research videous appear to suggest that 80 degrees may be the most effective at preventing tearout, but I am keen to hear from anyone who has experience with this technique.

Warren insists on a curve but what angle would we find at the tip of his curve?

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

Are you sure of your measurements? 0.004" is 0.1mm - yes? If I place a chipbreaker that close it will cause the plane to stop cutting.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Stewie Simpson]

http://paulsellers.com/2014/10/custom-sharpening-your-bevel-up-jack-plane/

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/archive/index.php/t-82128.html?

[Derek Cohen]

Stewie, could you summarise the content of those links for us? A short précis will suffice.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

Derek,

Yes 4 thousandths of an inch and the plane cuts perfectly well with a 2 thou shaving!

David

[Derek Cohen]

David, that is very interesting. When I was experimenting early on with chip breakers on different bed angles, I tended to use at the start the high leading edge angles suggested in the video (the video suggested that the combined angles of the bed and chipbreaker should be between 90-120 degrees). These did work, but I do not now recall how well. I began dropping the angle at the leading edge, partly because I was curious, and partly because others were saying that it worked for them. This has worked well enough. Could it be better? Perhaps it is time to return to the higher angles at the leading edge and find out?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

This technique is relatively new to me, so I don't claim to have any answers.

English Yew is a particularly fine grained softwood, prone to tearout. I thought I would try 50 degrees but it turned out that 70 performed better for me, all in regular 45 degree bench planes.
Best wishes,
David

[Graham Haydon]

309158

309159

309160

I had a go at the "wood from hell" that David Charlesworth mentions. For some background on other methods that have been used http://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/west-dean-pics-t24308.html & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwDTH1ggAzM. Yew no doubt has it's issues but the cap iron does work well when I have encountered issues. I would recommend not changing a thing about the standard Stanley set up. The cap iron seems perfect, if you need to get a new style cap iron right I would advise buying an old cap iron and copying it. The plane used here was a stock #4 with standard iron & cap iron, plane is likely 1960's>70's vintage. The only reason I understand how powerful this method is thanks my discovery of David Weaver, Kees and Warren Mickleys writing and input. Although you can read a book it's static, seeing the discussions on the method unfold helped me understand. Then the books made sense.
Other methods will work well, back bevels, BU with high angles and scraping. The beauty of the regular BD plane with cap iron in it's wooden or bailey trim is how versatile it is. Well worth giving it a try on the Yew and good luck!

[Stewie Simpson]

Stewie, could you summarise the content of those links for us? A short précis will suffice.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Hi Derek, let me start off by saying there is a lesson to be learnt by the departure of David Weaver from this forum. Continuing down the path of expressing ones personal opinion can provide a catalyst to what ends up becoming a dog fight over who is right and who is wrong within the public arena. Far wiser to form a non committal attitude, and provide other forms of information that may be of some help to the op.

regards Stewie;

[Steve Voigt]

Hi Derek, let me start off by saying there is a lesson to be learnt by the departure of David Weaver from this forum. Continuing down the path of expressing ones personal can provide a catalyst to what ends up becoming a dog fight over who is right and who is wrong within the public arena. Far wiser to form a non committal attitude, and provide other forms of information that may be of some help to the op.



Yes, how wise of you. That sounds really interesting, to read nothing but non-ideological, "non-committal" posts. But I think I'd rather take a fistful of sleeping pills, thanks.

I think it's complete nonsense, though, to claim neutrality like this. You've expressed strong opinions here and on other forums, so we know you have them; why not own up to them?

As far as the links you posted go, I'd summarize the contents as "bevel-up, bevel-down, hey--whatever works, bro." I'm not sure I see how that advances this particular discussion, but maybe you can illuminate me, in a pleasingly anodyne fashion.

[Steve Voigt]

Yew no doubt has it's issues but the cap iron does work well when I have encountered issues. I would recommend not changing a thing about the standard Stanley set up. The cap iron seems perfect, if you need to get a new style cap iron right I would advise buying an old cap iron and copying it. The plane used here was a stock #4 with standard iron & cap iron, plane is likely 1960's>70's vintage. The only reason I understand how powerful this method is thanks my discovery of David Weaver, Kees and Warren Mickleys writing and input. Although you can read a book it's static, seeing the discussions on the method unfold helped me understand. Then the books made sense.
Other methods will work well, back bevels, BU with high angles and scraping. The beauty of the regular BD plane with cap iron in it's wooden or bailey trim is how versatile it is. Well worth giving it a try on the Yew and good luck!

Nicely put Graham, thanks.

[ian maybury]

That is a really great looking piece of wood….

[Stewie Simpson]

Hi Ian. If you want to experience some really beautiful timber try your hand on some Tasmanian Tiger Myrtle.

http://woodalchemy.com/woods/tiger_myrtle

At the present moment I am at the half way stage of completing a new 16 inch tenon saw, and have used Tiger Myrtle for the closed handled tote. Its not my first time working with TTM, but that sense of excitement has never wavered.

Stewie

[Winton Applegate]

Steve,

Thanks for that. I was hoping I wasn't the only one that likes to talk directly to the person posting rather than just read links to links . . .
linkity link link link.
(that was roughly the sound of a squeaky wheel coming to a stop.)

[Stewie Simpson]

"Bravo Winton."

kind regards Stewie;

[Stewie Simpson]

"but maybe you can illuminate me, in a pleasingly anodyne fashion."

Hi Steve. No problem. All you have to do is lean forward, until your face is about 1 inch away from the computer screen, and just read my lips.

regards Stewie;

[Dave Beauchesne]

Well, I tried a few plane combinations, knowing that the good old scraper would not fail me.

Like a dream, a quick scraper tune up and made the Yew give up some fluffy curls. Even though a softwood, it scraped nicely.

The project continues -----

[Dave Beauchesne]

Here is the Krenov inspired, finished product. It is a mantle cabinet that the LOML has laid claim to.

Happy to say the entire surface is finished with either a scraper or plane. Kingwood and Madrone drawer, copper and brass sheet metal woven in a chair seat pattern to cover the hole on the back panel. The pull is a piece of solid copper I silver soldered a couple of brass pins into, hammered it with a polished tip of a welders chipping hammer - had to anneal it a couple times as it stiffened up during the hammering process.

Tried and True exterior, couple of coats of 1 pound cut ultra blonde shellac interior.

I know this should be in the Projects section, but I wanted to finish the thread; the Yew was tough, but it succumbed to your advice in the end. Thanks for the advice.

[Jim Matthews]

Bravo. Your perseverance was rewarded.

[bridger berdel]

Warren-
Would it be possible for you to post a closeup side on picture of one of your blade/chipbreaker setups?



I would say steeper. The bevel of the cap iron should be rounded, and not flat, the way the bevel of the iron is.

[Warren Mickley]

I don't have a camera. Nor do I have the knowledge to take a picture and transfer it from the camera to the forum. I can tell you that you want something a lot closer to an old Stanley cap iron or a 19th century cap iron than today's offerings. The Lee Valley and Lie Nielson cap irons look like they were designed by people who had no idea how to use a double iron plane. A friend wrote me that he thinks they are deliberately made ineffective so they don't compete with the high angle stuff. You won't get much action from a flat bevel in the 30 to 50 degree range.

[ian maybury]

Amazing life to the colour Dave, almost like it's on fire. The shellac presumably brought in quite an amber tone - i had thought yew was typically a pale cream colour.

Belated thanks to Stewie for the link to the tiger myrtle - i missed it first time. Wood is amazing stuff.

[Brian Holcombe]

Warren, I have been wondering for some time now if the old caps can be retrofitted onto LN planes. I can get chips that roll up nicely, without issue, I have the hardest time maintaining chips that freeflow out of the plane.

[Dave Beauchesne]

Amazing life to the colour Dave, almost like it's on fire. The shellac presumably brought in quite an amber tone - i had thought yew was typically a pale cream colour.

Belated thanks to Stewie for the link to the tiger myrtle - i missed it first time. Wood is amazing stuff.

Ian:

I have done a few pieces in Yew; this was the darkest piece that I have ever seen. The ultra rough stick of Yew I bought almost looked like it was covered in dry blood, so much so, I had to ask the fellow I bought it from what it was - it had been standing in the corner of his shop for 20 years - I believe it. I was using less than 1# cut ultra blonde shellac, so no, it didn't darken it up much at all, just clarified it.

Dave B

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

I've been having similar issues trying to plane osage. Not only is the stuff hard as a rock, the slabs I'm using are very twisty with interlocking grains and a couple nasty knots. I'm new to planing so rather than destroying some nice slabs of osage I'm going to take some of the advice in this thread and just use a scraper. Would a scraper plane be better than my Bahco 474 cabinet scraper?

I apologize if I'm thread-jacking, I thought this would be an appropriate place to ask this question.

Thanks,
Matt

[bridger berdel]

Nothing gives control quite like a card scraper held in the fingers. However, if you have a lot of area to scrape it can be hard on the hands. A simple scraper plane like the 80 probably represents a sweet spot in function vs. complexity, especially for the price.


I've been having similar issues trying to plane osage. Not only is the stuff hard as a rock, the slabs I'm using are very twisty with interlocking grains and a couple nasty knots. I'm new to planing so rather than destroying some nice slabs of osage I'm going to take some of the advice in this thread and just use a scraper. Would a scraper plane be better than my Bahco 474 cabinet scraper?

I apologize if I'm thread-jacking, I thought this would be an appropriate place to ask this question.

Thanks,
Matt

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, I have been wondering for some time now if the old caps can be retrofitted onto LN planes. I can get chips that roll up nicely, without issue, I have the hardest time maintaining chips that freeflow out of the plane.

I don't know about fitting an old cap iron to a Lie Nielsen plane. I think at one time they had directions on the website for measuring a cap iron for them to replace. Currently the cap iron page suggests that they will not fit all older planes. I called yesterday afternoon and asked if a Stanley cap iron would fit in a Lie Nielsen plane. The lady at first thought I must be confused, that I must have meant the other way around. She thought they would fit, but maybe it is a little hit or miss.

Concerning use of the double iron. A lot of people used to ask how far to place the cap iron from the edge. They would have liked a chart like walnut .0XX or oak .0YY. Or like for Fraxinus pennsylvanica, with dips in grain up to 7 degrees and 5 degrees from a radial cut (slightly rift sawn), a cutting angle of 45 degrees, a mouth of .0ZZ, a depth of cut of .0VV, and an angle on the tip of the cap iron of WW degrees, set the cap iron at .0XX. In practice our mind does this kind of thinking for us to come up with a setting based on experience. Or we leave the cap iron where it is and make an adjustment based on how it is performing.

If we are teaching a child to walk, we could measure their shoulders and then tell them to take steps in a track so wide and with steps so far apart, varied with terrain etc. But it is much more useful to let them experiment, take their lumps, and learn by experience. So it is with the double iron. I think it is helpful to have a limited number of planes, not three jointers and seven smoothing planes, in order to facilitate learning.

[Brian Holcombe]

Thanks Warren, I will go on the hunt for an a stanley cap iron and give it a try.

That's a good point, I'm looking for one-size fits all when I should be adjusting per each scenario as I see the result. My one size fits all setting is resulting in everything from very-good (clean shaving, high sheen finish) to a clean cut but a dull finish and a rolling chip.

I have one jointer and one smoother, so that helps. I've gotten my sharpening down to a point where I'm happy and I have mostly eliminated tear-out...so now I'm shooting for a good sheen on the finish every time.

[ian maybury]

Set up aside another fundamental variable in cap iron setting as before has to be the depth of cut - in that a thick shaving will be stressed by a similar amount to a thin one by being bent through a curve of a much larger radius.

The other adjustments (pitch/cutting angle and set back of the cap iron) will still presumably be in play, but it's even possible that a convex nose cap iron is somewhat self correcting or at least variable in this regard - in that depending on where the chip strikes it the effective angle will be different. For sure it seems unlikely to be a matter of applying a one size fits all formula...

I have a Clifton no 5 which also has a curved chip breaker. I found it needed some dressing to ensure that it sat properly on the iron and to smooth the working face, and some work with a punch to tighten up the locating slot at the rear - but it's a handy design in some ways. The iron was good - sharpens well and while not quite in Veritas territory for flatness was not too far off. Seems they too fit some other planes: https://www.fine-tools.com/clift.html

[Jim Matthews]

I have the hardest time maintaining chips that freeflow out of the plane.

If you're planing 'real World' wood like the piece from the OP - no surprise there.

The long shavings we see in the demonstration setting of a tool show,
or in a promotional video - that's not an accident.

I've heard Brian Boggs chuckling about the mad search for 'show wood' for an unscheduled tool show.
He wasn't in any hurry to offer up his stash to sell more tools for somebody else.

[Brian Holcombe]

LOL, thanks Jim. I can get 'show wood' to shoot the chips out, but typically stuff they roll up.

[Allen Jordan]

Chinese Elm is the worst wood I've tried to plane... the grain is interlocked into knots, making planes either glide over or just tear out no matter what I try. I'll have to experiment with the closer chip breaker settings and research leading edge angles more. I use the ruler trick when sharpening, which unfortunately limits the cap iron closeness... maybe it's a good time to switch to standard flat honing of the back.

Edit: oops, confused chip breakers and cap irons