japanese saws and miter boxes

[Peter Choi]

I'm looking at a few different japanese saws to start my saw collection. Im confused on all the different kinds. Im using only hand tools, so I need one for ripping, cross cuts, and joinery. I'm guessing a ryoba will work for ripping and cross cuts and then another one for joinery but not sure what would work for joinery. Is it a dozuki?

I've done some research and was thinking of the #611 and #370 from gyokucho. A ryobi and a cross cut dozuki. Or this set of three from Z http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/Set-of-3-Professional-Japanese-Z-Saws/productinfo/406%2D333A/

Also do you guys recommend the japanese saws from LV or theres gyokucho from hidatools. What do you guys recommend? I know western saws maybe tougher and better for beginners but I love the aesthetics of japanese saws.

Also Im in need of some recommendations for some affordable miter boxes! If anyone has any recommendations that'd be great.

[Brian Holcombe]

Buy reasonably priced Japanese saws intended for use in hardwoods (if you are sawing hardwoods).

I have a mitsukawa.....one of them, started with three. Technique is important, I can go back to them with confidence, but I actually prefer western saws at this point.

[Jim Koepke]

My Japanese saws still get used occasionally, but after trying them for a few years it seems the western saws work better for me in most cases.

The most use one of my Japanese saws sees is sawing dowels or occasionally cutting pieces flush to a surface.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

First off get one or two pretty darn nice Japanese saws. I would deal with Hida they are great or were back in the day when I dealt with them.

Secondly I TOTALLY agree with these guys. I / we think you will find that Western saws work really well for Western/American cabinetry. Especially when you use a western work bench.

Thirdly as far as a miter box FOR THE JAPANESE SAWS I like this kind of thing (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=41718&cat=1,42884,67754&ap=1). Not necessarily for dove tails but you get the idea. I have made my own out of wood and embedded rare earth magnets and in some cases put slick plastic over that. Can use these with Western saws as well. You can even make big honkin' ones to use with the largest back saws.

I don't really have a traditional miter box other than one I inherited from my Father and it is worn and wildly inaccurate and does not have the cool guy adjustable metal guides. In other words it is pointless to use and it is much better to knife an accurate layout and saw and plane to the knifed line if needed.

I would strongly recommend learning to do all that as soon as possible. Buy some decent walnut or other hard wood and just layout and cut stuff until you finally blush with pride at your perfect joinery.

BEFORE ever trying to make a real project.
think of it as playing scales before you try to play music.
It really is the best and most enjoyable activity I can think of anyway. No pressure, just layout and fit and have fun.
Much better than jumping into a project and telling yourself "well that will have to do and I will do it better next time".
Learn to do it right first then start a project.

I think most will call these sorts of guides training wheels for when you need to get top quality cuts and one's skill is not quite up to the job of free handing it . . . or the materials involved are so ghastly expensive you can not afford an error . . . or you just like to fool around with stuff like this. I fall in there some where but really try to work without a net as much as possible.

One saw I really like that has similar feel and delicate sensibilities similar to the Japanese joinery saws but with Western push teeth is the two saws on the left (see photo). Unfortunately they stopped making it; maybe one day Lie-Nelson will bring it back. I particularly like the coarser 10 tooth per inch one.

Not to put down the Japanese tooth saws. In some ways they are superior.
Problem is the saw dust is pulled out of the cut and onto the layout lines. With the western push the saw dust goes out the back for the most part and you have to blow on the lines less. There are other handle configuration issues when cutting western joinery with Japanese saws but those will have to be decided by you and how you work. Totally worth trying both though.

[David Wong]

I use japanese saws for everything, except for rough ripping. If I am ripping more than a a foot or so, I will always use a western saw. The teeth configuration of the commercially available japanese saws are not setup for long rips.

For joinery, I would start with a 210mm or 240mm ryoba, and a 210mm dozuki. I have gyokucho 270mm and 300mm saws, that I use for breaking down lumber. The greater the length of the saw, the fewer teeth-per-inch, the rougher the cut, and the faster the cutting. I have both the gyokucho 240mm ryobas, the regular one, and the one setup for hardwoods. The one setup for hardwood is only different in the crosscut teeth. It has finer teeth. The rip teeth are exactly the same on both saws. I use the Nakaya 210mm dozuki, both crosscut and rip. This saw has a very very thin kerf. If you purchase this saw, make sure you get replacement blades, as the teeth are easily damaged.

[Winton Applegate]

The teeth configuration of the commercially available japanese saws are not setup for long rips.

I totally agree.
I was very frustrated by that fact.
So much so I finally bought this saw and refiled it rip from a combination tooth configuration that it came with. I tried to resaw with it and wasn't bad but better for ripping than resawing.

Be sure to eat lots of chocolate to power the saw. ;)

By the way guys . . . when you saw chocolate what tooth geometry do you prefer ? :confused:

[Marc Seguin]

Fairly aggressive, maybe 10 degrees of negative rake. Unless it's chocolate with cacao nibs in it. Those might call for 0 degrees. Really deep gullets too.

[Peter Choi]

thanks for the tips guys. I bought those two saws from gyokucho. Ill plan on buying another western saw for longer rips and maybe for a miter box. Will definitely learn how to use japanese saws. Also what are you guys talking about with the chocolate?

[Pat Barry]

By the way guys . . . when you saw chocolate what tooth geometry do you prefer ? :confused:
I like to break it, else use my chefs knife. No sawing for me, too much waste!

[Richard Line]

Tooth geometry for chocolate - I generally prefer molars to incisors.

[Winton Applegate]

what are you guys talking about with the chocolate?
aaaahhhhhh
:cool: Dude . . .
that's fourth level information.
you'll learn about that WHEN IT'S TIME. ;)

:p
Just kidding. I like to throw in weird stuff just to give people something different to look at.
I mean how many seventy dollar eleven pound chocolate bars have you seen ?

I had never seen one until I met my partner the chef. She's not a pastry chef but her old boss was.