Anyone heard from David Weaver?

[Frederick Skelly]

I couldnt recall a recent post so I searched on his name and didnt get anything newer than mid-January. I also notice his posts now list him a a guest. I dont recall the difference between "member" and "guest", but I guess the bottom line is he didnt renew here? I sure miss his advice. Anyone hear from him?

Fred

[Harold Burrell]

I've been wondering too.

"Dave! Dave! Come back, Dave! We miss you!" :(

[Mike Henderson]

I couldn't find him in the member list so I assume he cancelled his registration here. If he simply didn't renew his contribution he would be listed as a member (you automatically go from contributor to member if you don't renew).

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

I couldn't find him in the member list so I assume he cancelled his registration here. If he simply didn't renew his contribution he would be listed as a member (you automatically go from contributor to member if you don't renew).

Mike

Well Mike, that's what I was afraid it meant. I may go over to another site he used to frequent and see if he's still "around".

Edit: Well, I see he's got a couple posts on Wood Central today. :(

[Frank Martin]

I was wondering the same and saw his posts over at Wood Central earlier this week.

[Shawn Pixley]

Maybe he became unstuck in time?



I hope he comes back

[Winton Applegate]

Well I remember him saying this

I don't post much here any more (because like this thread, the discussion doesn't advance and there isn't proper credibility given to the people who actually know what they're talking about),

here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?226091-Hardness-testing-of-saw-plates&p=2359714#post2359714)
and then he sent some saws for testing.
I just discovered the Old vs New saws thread. For some reason I didn't read that one.

anyway
This is the best forum around.
Central is great too but less active.
I suppose more and more people are doing what I SHOULD be doing and that is spending this time in the shop.
After FWW and Woodwork mags went to pot I need to connect some how.
I hope David comes back or gets the forum he wants.

[Reinis Kanders]

Yeah I learned about the whole chipbreaker business mostly thanks to his posts.
He has some good videos about plane making on YouTube so he is around.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I'm not sure you can change your statue to Guest without help/intervention from the Mod Squad.

Perhaps one of our Overlords will add something here?

[Chris Parks]

David explained his issues in one of his last posts here.

[Tony Zaffuto]

He's hanging & posting over on Wood Central.

[Harold Burrell]

Seriously...if Dave chooses not to come back here, he will be greatly missed.

I think he thought I was kidding when I would call him one of the world's leading experts on "all things stones". I ALWAYS appreciated (and sought after) his advice.

[David Ragan]

I am relatively new to this or any other WW forum.

However, like any other relationship, we, as a group, may consider what went wrong and bear that in mind in the future.

Certainly there is some reason. The sort of reference in the above response of David's points to that:

"I don't post much here any more (because like this thread, the discussion doesn't advance and there isn't proper credibility given to the people who actually know what they're talking about)"

Anybody know what he is referring to?

[Frederick Skelly]

Well, I just finished reading the thread that Winton linked to in his post above. I wasnt following that one at the time. I guess I can see what happened now, or at least I have the sense of it. I always learn a great deal from David's posts and I sure miss hearing from him.

Thanks guys. Im off to buy some lumber so I can try my hand at making a pair of small hollows/rounds next weekend. If Im successful and they work ok, I'll post a couple pics.

Have a good weekend,
Fred

[Mike Brady]

I consider myself to be an internet friend of Dave, through two forums. I won't speculate on his reasons, but I wouldn't be surprised if you don't see him back. That said, don't feel responsible yourself. The prior forum actually asked him to leave. This time, the motivation was self-driven, at least. I see that as growth on his part. Maybe more woodworking and less posting would be a good prescription for him.

[Robert McNaull]

I consider myself to be an internet friend of Dave, through two forums. I won't speculate on his reasons, but I wouldn't be surprised if you don't see him back. That said, don't feel responsible yourself. The prior forum actually asked him to leave. This time, the motivation was self-driven, at least. I see that as growth on his part. Maybe more woodworking and less posting would be a good prescription for him.

Well that is disappointing to hear, I frequently read here and don't post much because I don't have anything to add and really enjoy his posts. I enjoy a lot of folks around here who take the time to share their knowledge in an area that I will be a student for a long time. I read the thread shared by Winton and generally understand the frustration. Also to have to remember this is an internet forum and without actual face to face interaction, tone and attitude can only be interpreted and not observed.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Count me in the "Come back Dave!" club. I always enjoyed his input. While reading that thread Winton linked to as it developed, the reasons he left become obvious. The silent majority gets it Dave, you are not speaking in a vacuum when something you validate goes unresponsive except by the one you are debating.

[John Coloccia]

It's a forum. You don't get to preach. You get to have discussions with people that don't agree with you (even if they're wrong), and that may not even like you. I always try and take the approach of "here's my opinion, but try for yourself/don't try/do what you want...I don't care." When I find myself getting too wrapped up in it, like it actually matters, I take little breaks too until it's back in perspective. That's not always a bad thing.

[Daniel Rode]

I traded emails with David recently. While I miss his voice here, I understand his reasons for not participating here.

[george wilson]

Too bad David decided to end his membership here. The place will be missing his input and good sense.

[Sean Hughto]

I dunno, I can understand his frustration. It's only human to suffer pangs of "pearls before swine" thoughts, especially when the pearls get all mixed up with plastic imitations and too many can't tell the difference. May as well do something else, like make furniture.

[Moses Yoder]

The way I understand it everyone here posts voluntarily. If someone learns something they really do not have a moral obligation to share it freely, no matter how much it may improve the life of those people who learn of it. While I appreciated Mr. Weaver's posts while he was here, I will continue to learn just as much from the people who still post here. If someone decides not to post, I will simply continue to learn from the people who enjoy posting. It makes me no difference.

[Sean Hughto]

Yes, everyone is fungible and everyone's knowledge is equally valuable. It truly makes no difference.


eye roll eye roll sarcasm sarcasm sarcasm.

[george wilson]

Sean,I can hardly agree with your last post. How can everyone's knowledge be equally valuable? People have different knowledge and talent,and definitely some more than others. For example,David's knowledge of stones was outstanding,and I learned things from him that I doubt I'll learn elsewhere. He also put us onto the correct use of the chip breaker. That was very valuable information. Not being a furniture maker,I used only a block plane most of my years making guitars,and did not have that information.

Edit,Sean says it was a joke. Glad to hear that!:)

Moses,I seriously doubt that David's full knowledge is replaceable here.

[Judson Green]

And good sense of humor- who else will make a comparison to playing football wearing cast iron flip flops.

[Graham Haydon]

It's a shame he's not posting. He has a lot of good sense and I learned a lot from him. He did a good job of passing on knowledge he had gained through first hand experience.

[Paul McGaha]

David's a good man. I've asked him lot's of questions and he was always willing to help me.

I hope he finds his way back here.

PHM

[Mike Holbrook]

Communication via Forums can become frustrating. Certainly we can get tired, heated, preachy...and not make our best effort at being understood/communicating. Trying to "perfect" our message can become very time consuming and keep us from other things.

On subjects I am more technically versed than I am in the subject matter on this forum, I find that there are things to be learned even from those with little/no/incorrect...information/opinion. If one is trying to impart better information to an audience looking for that information there is certainly a great deal to learn concerning how to present better, more accurate, more helpful information in a format that the interested audience can glean that information from easily. There is always the challenge of saying more with less words. The biggest challenge for me is figuring out how to help people, including myself, have fun learning or teaching. If nothing else sometimes I learn what not to do.

[bob blakeborough]

It's a forum. You don't get to preach. You get to have discussions with people that don't agree with you (even if they're wrong), and that may not even like you. I always try and take the approach of "here's my opinion, but try for yourself/don't try/do what you want...I don't care." When I find myself getting too wrapped up in it, like it actually matters, I take little breaks too until it's back in perspective. That's not always a bad thing.This in spades...

[Malcolm Schweizer]

This forum frequently has posts with thousands of views but only 10 or so people commenting. Those are not healthy stats. Add to that- good folks are departing. Red flags.

I believe forums have a life cycle similar to rivers: youthful, mature, old age, rejuvenated. SMC is in the old age stage; a small number of posters with high skill levels and few new posters. The new guys lurk because they love being fed, but they feel too inadequate compared to the members with high skill who frequently post. Those higher skilled folks tend to critique (*often unwittingly), and therefore people become afraid to post. Ultimately posts turn from "Here's what I'm building this week (photos)" to "Here's another very technical argument about something we have hashed out already but I love talking about (graphic data, photomicograph)."

Boom.

For an old age stream to rejuvenate, it has to meander back upon itself, ultimately cutting off an oxbow and creating a fresh channel where water flows more freely. The faster flowing water causes other parts of the river to follow suit, and soon you have a rejuvenated stream. *EDIT! This is not a reference to cutting off David or other members- I mean something must change to rejeuvenate and get the flow going. That could be something like getting rid of seldom-used subforums. Example- I am a boatbuilder. I teach boatbuilding. I think I have posted on the boatbuilding forum maybe four times. There are established boatbuilding forums for that. Maybe merge a few of these specialty categories to get more folks talking together instead of segregating them.

Perhaps that should become a new thread topic followed by asking people how to improve and why they don't post, especially begging lurkers to comment. I say this not negatively but because I see a need for it when so few are sharing and folks are leaving. We noticed David. How many did we not notice?

[Harold Burrell]

This forum frequently has posts with thousands of views but only 10 or so people commenting. Those are not healthy stats. Add to that- good folks are departing. Red flags.

I believe forums have a life cycle similar to rivers: youthful, mature, old age, rejuvenated. SMC is in the old age stage; a small number of posters with high skill levels and few new posters. The new guys lurk because they love being fed, but they feel too inadequate compared to the members with high skill who frequently post. Those higher skilled folks tend to critique (*often unwittingly), and therefore people become afraid to post. Ultimately posts turn from "Here's what I'm building this week (photos)" to "Here's another very technical argument about something we have hashed out already but I love talking about (graphic data, photomicograph)."

Boom.

For an old age stream to rejuvenate, it has to meander back upon itself, ultimately cutting off an oxbow and creating a fresh channel where water flows more freely. The faster flowing water causes other parts of the river to follow suit, and soon you have a rejuvenated stream. *EDIT! This is not a reference to cutting off David or other members- I mean something must change to rejeuvenate and get the flow going. That could be something like getting rid of seldom-used subforums. Example- I am a boatbuilder. I teach boatbuilding. I think I have posted on the boatbuilding forum maybe four times. There are established boatbuilding forums for that. Maybe merge a few of these specialty categories to get more folks talking together instead of segregating them.

Perhaps that should become a new thread topic followed by asking people how to improve and why they don't post, especially begging lurkers to comment. I say this not negatively but because I see a need for it when so few are sharing and folks are leaving. We noticed David. How many did we not notice?

Good post, sir. A very good post.

[Reinis Kanders]

Woodcentral also is pretty quiet, but seems to have been around forever. Things will work out.

[Frederick Skelly]

Good post, sir. A very good post.

+1. Thanks Malcolm.

[Chris Parks]

This forum frequently has posts with thousands of views but only 10 or so people commenting. Those are not healthy stats. Add to that- good folks are departing. Red flags.

I believe forums have a life cycle similar to rivers: youthful, mature, old age, rejuvenated. SMC is in the old age stage; a small number of posters with high skill levels and few new posters. The new guys lurk because they love being fed, but they feel too inadequate compared to the members with high skill who frequently post. Those higher skilled folks tend to critique (*often unwittingly), and therefore people become afraid to post. Ultimately posts turn from "Here's what I'm building this week (photos)" to "Here's another very technical argument about something we have hashed out already but I love talking about (graphic data, photomicograph)."

Boom.

For an old age stream to rejuvenate, it has to meander back upon itself, ultimately cutting off an oxbow and creating a fresh channel where water flows more freely. The faster flowing water causes other parts of the river to follow suit, and soon you have a rejuvenated stream. *EDIT! This is not a reference to cutting off David or other members- I mean something must change to rejeuvenate and get the flow going. That could be something like getting rid of seldom-used subforums. Example- I am a boatbuilder. I teach boatbuilding. I think I have posted on the boatbuilding forum maybe four times. There are established boatbuilding forums for that. Maybe merge a few of these specialty categories to get more folks talking together instead of segregating them.

Perhaps that should become a new thread topic followed by asking people how to improve and why they don't post, especially begging lurkers to comment. I say this not negatively but because I see a need for it when so few are sharing and folks are leaving. We noticed David. How many did we not notice?

I think eventually forums will go the way of Newsgroups for those old enough to have participated when they were the new social media.

[Brian Holcombe]

I think it is partially owed to the fact that being a hand-tool 'mostly' woodworker is a rare thing to begin with, so it's intimidating to come into this forum and share if you only use hand tools a very small part of the time. However people do want to learn and so they search of fallow along with interesting topics.

Of the hundreds of woodworkers local to myself, I can think of two or three others which specialize in hand tools. However from my conversations with the locals i see a growing usage of hand tools for certain work. People who are like that may still not find a need to do anything more than search/read.

David is a great person and has been incredibly helpful to me, I do wish his return to this forum, but I understand his reasons for moving on.

[bob blakeborough]

I am going to plug my nose and jump in the deep end...

Speaking for myself, a lot of the reason I lurk and don't post very much isn't because I am intimidated by skilled peoples knowledge. It is because it really grew tiresome to be made to feel like it was always a "my way or the highway" type thing with a few of the more aggressive skilled people, and I am sorry if this is going to upset anyone, but David was/is one of those types.

He might be the nicest, most sincere yet misunderstood guy in the world, but he was not kindly to those who didn't accept what he said as gold. His posts back at you would be back loaded with little pearls of insult and condiscention. Heaven forbid the poor newbie arrives and mentions any reference to a more known but lesser skilled woodworker (forgive me... BLOGGER) than himself. Well that would unleash the beast and make you feel like the person who maybe rekindled an interest for you was worthless and you also must be an idiot for liking him...

Forgive me all, because I am not trying change anyone's mind about the value of his skill and knowledge, but if we want this forum to be a place which attracts new people and not makes them only want to lurk rather than participate, maybe we need to think about the way we talk "TO" each other rather than "AT" each other...

Ugghhh... Rant over. I did not want to be a jerk and talk poorly about anyone and for that I apologize but I feel like unless this type of behaviour gets addressed it will not change. At least for sensitive newbies such as myself...

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Malcolm, I have to disagree to some extent. I don't think it's a sign of the forum health to have many views and little posts. I think a forum grows on itself at the pace of general knowledge. This is afterall a social, educational tool and database. We are here to associate with a group with a common interest, as humans tend to be social animals. In any situation, those that stand out carry a higher load, either criticism, respect, or disdain. Many don't want to stand out to be subjected to the scrutiny of the masses, so they read and but don't post. How many questions get asked when a lecturer asks for them at the end of his presentation? Same thing here.

The neanderthal forum is different than others because a smaller group with a higher percentage of highly educated posters hang out here. As the novice is so far behind the general knowledge level of the group, it's common to just sit quietly and learn rather than stand out and subject yourself to the painful process of being "judged" by the experts. The power tool forum is different as there are so many more posters, that experts don't emerge as frequently and its a more open exchange of ideas at different levels of expertise. I'd argue that neither is better than the other, just different.

It is exceptional to see as many expert level hand tool users in one place as there are here. It can lead to public bickering though that can be offputting to the bystanders.

[Pat Barry]

He'll be back in time unless he is finished with woodworking completely, there isn't really a better alternative. On the other hand, he might be mostly interested in inventing / arguing the merits of a chip breaker for his razor.

[Mel Fulks]

Bob,that is not the way I see it and I don't think you need to worry about being too sensitive. Maybe what we have here is
a Siskel and Ebert situation. No way to vote for who is really right.

[Shawn Pixley]

It's a forum. You don't get to preach. You get to have discussions with people that don't agree with you (even if they're wrong), and that may not even like you. I always try and take the approach of "here's my opinion, but try for yourself/don't try/do what you want...I don't care." When I find myself getting too wrapped up in it, like it actually matters, I take little breaks too until it's back in perspective. That's not always a bad thing.

This is no comment upon David. I have utmost respect upon his knowledge of stones and several other things. I have found him generous and giving of his knowledge and opinion. However, even with his learned expertise, I still use my waterstones and have no plans to change.

What tires me in this forum is sniping between members on their method being the only right or correct method. The easiest example is a constant back and forth about hollow grind vs simple bevel or freehand or honing guide. Any combination of these can work and there is no one "right way." I really don't care whether one uses a guide or not. If they can get the bevel sharp consistantly, whatever they do is fine. If someone think that the "perfect edge" is obtained by by chanting incantations over the tool under a full moon, then honing it using a combination of stale bread and cat fur and they are happy, I don't care. Nor to I plan to try it. It is easy to look past these comments and threads without a need to comment. It is when we think that everyone should be doing it "our way" or the "one true way" that our arrogance gets in the way of friendly discourse and civil discussion. Reasonable people can agree to disagree.

The nature of these forums are that the same questions will be asked again and again. That is the nature of people who are learning constantly coming to the forum to learn. I firmly believe all of us are still learning. Many of us have somehong to teach as well. A teacher who teaches the same class each year is obviously going to be repeating him or herself. Getting frustrated with that aspect, helps no one.

[Noah Wagener]

sorta. someone who i am pretty sure is him bid on a Washita i was selling on ebay. the username was like daw and from Pitt. This same user had just sold a Washita for the same price he would have paid for mine. intervention anyone?I think he in Cartagena with Joan Wilder

[Noah Wagener]

anyone heard from Warren Mickley?

[ken hatch]

I can understand if David pulled away from the forum because of folks with out knowledge or experience "Big Footing" his posts. I've done the same on other forums. For years I've been a very knowledgeable long distance motorcycle rider with tested methods of riding safely and in cool comfort through the Southwest deserts during the heat of the day and doing it while riding from tank to tank. Motorcycle riding in the heat threads on motorcycle forums are about the same as sharpening threads on woodworking forums. With out fail there would be some guy that lived and rode Michigan that would contradict the information I posted and/or say I was wrong posting as his reason some "conventional wisdom" that has been been discarded by the folks that do for ages. It gets old after awhile.

ken

[Jason Roehl]

This is one of the caveats of the internet. Everyone, with only a few exceptions (those who are known through other media outlets), is on an equal footing. Forums, like SMC, may have those who are somewhat known as experts, but new members to the forum may not know them from Adam. Likewise, those who are grossly incompetent have a voice that perhaps gets more airtime than it should. Each member's ability to deal with these realities factors in to how long they stick around on the forums. I'm a painting contractor by trade, and have certainly seen patently bad painting advice given here, but I don't lose sleep over it. I give my opinion and move on. I've also gotten nasty private messages from someone who claimed to have more experience than me in trim carpentry (something I've done a fair amount of over the years in addition to the painting) who disagreed with my assessment of an older technique that I've seen fail.

[Stewie Simpson]

"Each member's ability to deal with these realities factors in to how long they stick around on the forums."

Hi Jason. That's an accurate assessment.

I would also like to acknowledge the fine contribution David has made to this forum of many years.

Stewie;

[Warren Mickley]

anyone heard from Warren Mickley?

I was away most of the day, but I have read most of this thread.

It is hard to know what to say here. It is frustrating to have people without much experience suggest one does not know what he is talking about. That some clumsy blogger must be a higher authority. Or many other examples in this vein

[Tom Stenzel]

This is one of the caveats of the internet. Everyone, with only a few exceptions (those who are known through other media outlets), is on an equal footing. Forums, like SMC, may have those who are somewhat known as experts, but new members to the forum may not know them from Adam. Likewise, those who are grossly incompetent have a voice that perhaps gets more airtime than it should.
...
I don't lose sleep over it.

+1

When I joined SMC I had never heard of David Weaver. Or George Wilson or Warren Mickley either for that matter. Considering that there are a lot more people in the world I DON'T know than do that wasn't a big surprise.

So of course the first thing that goes through my mind: I have to trash talk other peoples life work and reputation even though I have no idea who they are. Or what I'm talking about.

The second thing that goes through my mind:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"
-Quote attributed to Samuel Johnson, Abraham Lincoln, Samuel Clements and others. Take your pick.

I'm keeping my mouth shut. :)

But misunderstandings will always be a problem on forums. I was PMed raking me over the coals about something I wrote and it turned out that we were in complete agreement. I didn't know what the problem was until I re-read what I had posted. Ouch, somewhere in editing I really botched it; I could have been worded my post a whole lot better! I was glad that we were able to settle it with a few PMs.

Maybe I should have my wife review my posts.

-Tom

[Hilton Ralphs]

If only there was virtual arm wrestling, we'd certainly sort out a lot of issues.

[Winton Applegate]

If only there was virtual arm wrestling, we'd certainly sort out a lot of issues.
I suppose you mean that in jest.
However . . .
I think that is exactly what you see going on around the globe right now.
Rather than resorting to looking at facts and reality we got testosterone and head banging.
Pretty soon everyone is brain damaged and few things are any better and many are worse.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I suppose you mean that in jest.


Depends on your definition of jest of course. Man by nature prefer to sort things out physically. If I call your kid ugly, you're more than likely to punch me in the nose. I then apologise, we share a beer and get on with out lives.

On the web we can't arm wrestle each other so we resort to fighting.

If we all sat around the camp-fire at night in the beautiful African bush, I promise you we'd all be friends.

[george wilson]

I know David very well. He is in reality a very kind and extremely generous person. And,I agree with Warren: It is frustrating. Go up and read his post above.

David is gone,and has burned his bridges,I'm afraid. Had I known what he was going to do,I'd have tried to talk him out of it for sure. But,it's too late.

[Harold Burrell]

If we all sat around the camp-fire at night in the beautiful African bush, I promise you we'd all be friends.

Hilton, that was one of THE best thoughts and insights on this matter that I have ever read.

In fact, I'm probably going to use it in a sermon someday. ;)

[Pat Barry]

Weaver said something to the effect that he was frustrated here because the conversations did not advance. Apparently he has gone to a more advanced forum. Que sera sera.

[Harold Burrell]

This is tough...but it is understandable.

Personalities differ. Add to that the fact (as it has already been stated) that it is oh so very easy for intentions and attitudes to be misread on a forum such as this. And then...if that is not enough...throw in the fact that when we do invest our time and money and energy into this WWing thing...and we bring our work and ideas and experiences to this place only to have them criticized...well...you get the idea...

[Dave Anderson NH]

A short comment and like in press conferences given by gov'mnt types no questions will be taken.

David asked to be relegated to guest status which means he can read but cannot post. It was his choice and while he gave his reasons, those like all communications with moderators remain private. Since his movement to guest status was at his request, he has by no means burned his bridges and can be reinstated at his request.

[Christopher Charles]

My thanks to David for all of his contributions here. Will be glad to see him back should he decide to rejoin us here.

Best,
C

[Judson Green]

I know David very well. He is in reality a very kind and extremely generous person. And,I agree with Warren: It is frustrating. Go up and read his post above.

David is gone,and has burned his bridges,I'm afraid. Had I known what he was going to do,I'd have tried to talk him out of it for sure. But,it's too late.

I don't read every post but I'm not aware of any burnt bridges. And I think this thread demonstrates the loss felt here.

Don't mean to argue with you, George, just disagree or perhaps am not in the loop.

I have watched some of his YouTube videos and am please that he is still contributing to greater the knowledge base of woodworking.

Edit: I also felt a loss when Chris Griggs started to post less often, it been some time now and every once in a while hell pop in but he used to be here all the time.

2 edit: And George I sure do hope you stick around.

[Harold Burrell]

To anyone who might still be in contact with David Weaver...

Would you PLEASE (even "Pretty Please") ask him if it would be ok if you gave me his email address? If he gives you permission, you could PM me with it. :o

[george wilson]

I'll ask him,Harold. I have it,but best ask his permission.

[Shaun Mahood]

Just a note of support from a lurker. I essentially visit this forum to read posts by George and David, with a few others that I will look at depending on the content. I actually started to archive all of their posts at one point on the off chance the forum dissolved or was otherwise unavailable, and would happily purchase a book or any other form of media that contained their knowledge. The majority of the value I get from this forum is from the small set of extremely knowledgable members and the ability to benefit from their experience and ask them questions.

I'm sorry that David has chosen to go somewhere else but wish it didn't have to be that way. I know that the idea is to treat everyone as equal, but I've seen other forums disintegrate when the professional and knowledgable members have been hounded and essentially chased off by a combination of argumentative newbies and misguided administrators. In my ideal world the administrators would be on the side of the experts who have a proven record and I really appreciate how hard David fought to make sure that accurate information would get into the hands of inexperienced woodworkers like me.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

In my ideal world the administrators would be on the side of the experts who have a proven record and I really appreciate how hard David fought to make sure that accurate information would get into the hands of inexperienced woodworkers like me.

Shaun,

I strongly disagree. In the ideal world, everybody gets treated equally.......nobody gets any special treatment regardless of their expertise.........everybody respects the rights of others to have a differing opinion....and those differing opinions are communicated in a respectful, civil manner.

David left on his own accord. There is nothing stopping him from returning if he chooses.

[Shaun Mahood]

I totally understand your position Ken, and have definitely seen the administrators here stand behind that stance.

It unfortunately leads to a lot more self imposed withdrawals of experts, and I've watched another formerly great forum where all the professionals and knowledgeable members have left due to a heavy skew towards the side of "all are equal".

I don't envy the job of forum administrators at all and know that there has to be a balance struck, and Sawmill Creek certainly falls on the more friendly and welcoming side because of the stance and choices of the administrators. I just wish it could also be a place where knowledgable experts could feel like their experience was always valued, as it is still the best place I've found on the internet for really interesting hand tool information.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I would argue that a lot of "newbies"...and I detest that word and it's useage .....leave other sites because the "experts" are given special treatment or authority. I would also argue that more "less experienced or skilled" people leave a site where the "experts" rule the roost than "experts" leave sites where less experienced people are given equal treatment.

A real expert who is secure in him or her self isn't challenged by someone, regardless of their expertise, disagreeing with them.

But....that has nothing to do with David's departure or his return.

David left at his own wish .....and he can return in the same manner should he choose to do so.

[Kent A Bathurst]

It unfortunately leads to a lot more self imposed withdrawals of experts, and I've watched another formerly great forum where all the professionals and knowledgeable members have left due to a heavy skew towards the side of "all are equal".

It does not take a huge leap of comprehension to figger out who is truly expert in their chosen topics, and who is pretty goldarn smart. And who is a sniper or pretender.

There are the experts that make sense to me, and some that sometimes don't. That's OK too. I listen to what they have to say, and think it through. The really remarkable thing is that there is no topic, however small the focus, that does not generate at lest 2 different methods, both of which work equally well - at least, at my skill level.

You really don't want some admin type slicing the gen pop up into experts and proles. And, if an expert finally gets exhausted by covering the same topic multiple times, and wants to retire to a forum populated only by experts, I can understand that. If they are under continual badgering by people they consider to be ankle-biters, then that provides more of an impetus.

[Mel Fulks]

Shaun and Kent,good work,thanks. Rather than a mere advocate of one type of sharpening,or an endorser of one brand
David is a true aficionado who generously provided solid info. A fine book could be done based on information he posted
here.

[Frederick Skelly]

My thanks to David for all of his contributions here. Will be glad to see him back should he decide to rejoin us here.

Best,
C

+1. I'll miss David. I like him and value his expertise.

[Pat Barry]

Its really quite amusing that this might be the most viewed thread of the year. Lets give it a break already.

[Mel Fulks]

Get rid of a thread because it's popular?! TV executives who have engineered successful shows say that's a bad plan.

[Stew Denton]

Hi All,

I too appreciated the comments David made, and recognized that he knew a lot more than I do, possibly has forgotten more than I will ever know.

I do also remember one other thread where someone was obviously writing from theory but with not much experience, and he totally and openly rejected the view David and others possessed, a view based on a lot of experience on that exact subject that David and the others had.

The fellow repeated his view over and over as if it was the final source of wisdom and knowledge. The thread went on and on. You could sense the frustration build in David and the others who had a lot of experience. I guess such happened enough that David had enough of it. I can't blame him.

I will miss the sage advise that David often gave. I do agree that you have to weight the advise given with the knowledge of the poster. We have some incredible folks here, like George, and others. David was one of those.

Stew

[Frederick Skelly]

I would argue that a lot of "newbies"...and I detest that word and it's useage .....leave other sites because the "experts" are given special treatment or authority. I would also argue that more "less experienced or skilled" people leave a site where the "experts" rule the roost than "experts" leave sites where less experienced people are given equal treatment.

I agree this can happen. I left another site for exactly that reason - got a big enough dose from one of their experts on the finishing forum that I gave up trying to get along and left. I have never once felt condescended to or embarrassed here at SMC. And when I arrived I knew NOTHING about hand tools.

[Jim Koepke]

Its really quite amusing that this might be the most viewed thread of the year. Lets give it a break already.

It is something that has an effect on all of us.'

Some more than others.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

Its really quite amusing that this might be the most viewed thread of the year. Lets give it a break already.

Nah: got a ways to go! There is a thread on one of the UK woodworking forums that is now 20 pages, though it looks like it is losing steam. Deals with counterfeit tools, etc.

[Richard Hutchings]

I can understand this feeling of loss as I knew of a different guy "John Hamlett" on the MandolinCafe. If he had ever left that forum while I was building mandolins, I would have been devastated. There's always someone on every forum that will make it worth coming back everyday. It's like they should be paid to be a member. You just want to know their thoughts on everything.

I haven't been following the Neander forum long enough to see this but after this thread, I'm going to search for and read Davids threads. Sounds like he's the JH of this forum.

[Sean Hughto]

A real expert who is secure in him or her self isn't challenged by someone, regardless of their expertise, disagreeing with them.


I would suggest that it is not about insecurity or even annoyance, but more like a general feeling of wasting your time. It is not a trivial matter to type out good responses imparting hard won experience. To do so and have it not valued or have it swamped in sea of "I just started woodworking yesterday, but I read somewhere that ..." or worse, bad information, etc. just makes it seem like time could be better spent.

Debate and disagreement is fine and often leads to better understanding. But an attitude of "my ignorance is just as valuable as your knowledge" can get old pretty quick. Why bang your head against that wall?

[george wilson]

Stew,I think I know the thread to which you referred. And,where is that person now? Gone from here. Vanished. Off to another and another forum,still trying without success,I hear from David,to persuade others to see things his way. No ongoing contribution at all to the knowledge base here.

Most people would have run muttering curses from my MAIN mentor in college (I met quite by happy accident!). Certainly,he was very hard on me. ANY false move or statement on my part,and I was an idiot! He still is very arrogant to this day. But,he HAD the goods. And in spades. And,as far as I was concerned,(and as far as Harvard was concerned,ultimately. He became later,the head of their Art Dept.),he had earned his stripes. I had sense enough to see that in 1960,young as I was,and tough it out for 3 years. Not always easy,either! He gave me the biggest contribution to my creative knowledge base,and I am forever grateful. My whole career was based on what I got from him. We are still in contact. If you want to learn something,and can luckily find someone to really learn from,stick with it and do not bellyache. I had to learn to see myself as the novice I really was in art before he began to sink in. I had skill,but needed help on what to do with it in design. I wish I could have stayed longer,but he was off to Harvard.

Now that I think about it,it was sort of a "Japanese" apprenticeship(without the actual beatings!).

David was most mild compared to my mentor. I just wish he'd have the opportunity to spend his life doing his favorite work,and learning all the time,as I had. Few do.

[Prashun Patel]

I would argue that a little thicker skin is in order for both 'sides'.

I'm a relatively new woodworker, and haven't always known what I don't know. I've been corrected many times. While it smarts sometimes and hurts my ego every once in a while, the dialog left in its entirety (sans petulance and rudeness) is probably very useful to other newbies.

Similarly, I think the expert teachers also need some patience for we students. Discussions often devolve because the experts don't have patience for challenges or questions to their data or experience. Guys like David certainly owe us nothing to suffer these debates, but I humbly suggest that they'd do better to just disengage from individual threads instead of disengaging from the site as a whole.

[Brian Ashton]

This forum frequently has posts with thousands of views but only 10 or so people commenting. Those are not healthy stats. Add to that- good folks are departing. Red flags.

I believe forums have a life cycle similar to rivers: youthful, mature, old age, rejuvenated. SMC is in the old age stage; a small number of posters with high skill levels and few new posters. The new guys lurk because they love being fed, but they feel too inadequate compared to the members with high skill who frequently post. Those higher skilled folks tend to critique (*often unwittingly), and therefore people become afraid to post. Ultimately posts turn from "Here's what I'm building this week (photos)" to "Here's another very technical argument about something we have hashed out already but I love talking about (graphic data, photomicograph)."

Boom.

For an old age stream to rejuvenate, it has to meander back upon itself, ultimately cutting off an oxbow and creating a fresh channel where water flows more freely. The faster flowing water causes other parts of the river to follow suit, and soon you have a rejuvenated stream. *EDIT! This is not a reference to cutting off David or other members- I mean something must change to rejeuvenate and get the flow going. That could be something like getting rid of seldom-used subforums. Example- I am a boatbuilder. I teach boatbuilding. I think I have posted on the boatbuilding forum maybe four times. There are established boatbuilding forums for that. Maybe merge a few of these specialty categories to get more folks talking together instead of segregating them.

Perhaps that should become a new thread topic followed by asking people how to improve and why they don't post, especially begging lurkers to comment. I say this not negatively but because I see a need for it when so few are sharing and folks are leaving. We noticed David. How many did we not notice?

Or you could of just said. It's the internet, everything is regurgitated over and over and over... The old get bored and move on and new ones come in, get old and move on... In a couple years a few here will be having the very same conversation.

[Chris Hachet]

I would argue that a little thicker skin is in order for both 'sides'.

I'm a relatively new woodworker, and haven't always known what I don't know. I've been corrected many times. While it smarts sometimes and hurts my ego every once in a while, the dialog left in its entirety (sans petulance and rudeness) is probably very useful to other newbies.

Similarly, I think the expert teachers also need some patience for we students. Discussions often devolve because the experts don't have patience for challenges or questions to their data or experience. Guys like David certainly owe us nothing to suffer these debates, but I humbly suggest that they'd do better to just disengage from individual threads instead of disengaging from the site as a whole.


I am relatively inexperienced as well. However, not really sure why people would have a problem with the Creek...seems like most everyone here is fairly respectful and just wants to learn.

[Keith Outten]

There is always a small group of people who cannot accept an alternate point of view without becoming irritated, angry and often unfriendly. An individuals value to any conversation is reduced when this happens particularly in a Community like ours which is why it is important that we all remain friendly and respect our peers no matter what their level of expertise. A friendly atmosphere where everyone is welcome and encouraged to participate is the foundation of this Community and nothing is more important.

[Sam Murdoch]

Guys like David certainly owe us nothing to suffer these debates, but I humbly suggest that they'd do better to just disengage from individual threads instead of disengaging from the site as a whole.

Yes to this comment. I have been awed by the depths of David's knowledge and appreciative of his posts. I agree that it is a loss to Sawmill Creek that he has chosen to be silent. I too have been frustrated at times by some who just can't allow someone else a differing opinion. When threads start to unravel from discourse to didacticism I choose to disengage from the thread as Prashun suggests.

Too bad for us all that David has disengaged from the forum. If you are reading this David - all the best. Hope to hear from you again.

[Chris Griggs]

I've gotten to know David reasonably well over the past few years, and feel fortunate to call him a friend. I like to make fun of him sometimes for being "cranky", but in reality I can only echo what others have said, and say that he is indeed a kind and generous person. I've lost count of the number of things he has sent me on his own dime to try out and often to keep.

Anyway, for anyone interested, David has been putting a lot up on Youtube lately documenting his foray plane building. If you google "Making a Double Iron Beech Try Plane" you will find them.



I also felt a loss when Chris Griggs started to post less often, it been some time now and every once in a while hell pop in but he used to be here all the time.


Hi Judson. Kind of you to say. I'm doing well, still lurk around here a little, and still check my PMs. Work got a lot busier this year and on top of that I decided to start taking some classes at the University I work for. Leaves very little time for posting and even less time for actual woodworking. I hope to get to more regular woodworking again at some point, but it won't likely be in the near future.

[Brian Holcombe]

Chris, just when you thought you were out, they pull you back in!

[Chris Hachet]

I've gotten to know David reasonably well over the past few years, and feel fortunate to call him a friend. I like to make fun of him sometimes for being "cranky", but in reality I can only echo what others have said, and say that he is indeed a kind and generous person. I've lost count of the number of things he has sent me on his own dime to try out and often to keep.

Anyway, for anyone interested, David has been putting a lot up on Youtube lately documenting his foray plane building. If you google "Making a Double Iron Beech Try Plane" you will find them.



Hi Judson. Kind of you to say. I'm doing well, still lurk around here a little, and still check my PMs. Work got a lot busier this year and on top of that I decided to start taking some classes at the University I work for. Leaves very little time for posting and even less time for actual woodworking. I hope to get to more regular woodworking again at some point, but it won't likely be in the near future.

I am in the same boat in the taking classes thing. Woodworking works very well as a secondary interest for me....I coach college debate and am in the process of taking class.

[Chris Griggs]

Chris, just when you thought you were out, they pull you back in!

I shall vanish as quickly as I reappeared...


I am in the same boat in the taking classes thing. Woodworking works very well as a secondary interest for me....I coach college debate and am in the process of taking class.

My hope was that I would at least have some time to get a little better at turning this year, but studying mathematics after having not taken a math class in 10 years ended up taking up lot more time than I expected. Glad your managing to find some time for the hobby!

[Winton Applegate]

If I call your kid ugly, you're more than likely to punch me in the nose.
Nah . . . I'd let HIM punch you in the nose.

Ha, ha,
I could't resist saying that.
Not true.

Yah, I see what you mean.



If we all sat around the camp-fire at night in the beautiful African bush, I promise you we'd all be friends.
Sounds like something Hemingway would have said (on one of his better days). He also said "In Africa, what is true at first light may not be true by noonday". So . . . probably by noon your wife would have intensionally shot you with a water buffalo gun . . . but hey that was just the way his stories went.
I will say most of my antagonizing and contradiction is done with a twinkle in the eye and not too seriously. I do think I know about one or two things but I learn stuff when I find out I am wrong so . . .
I for one am willing to be thought a fool at least in woodworking chatrooms.
That and I wouldn't win too many arm wrestling bouts.

[Mel Fulks]

Winton, that actually seemed to make sense......gotta shorten cocktail hour.

[Winton Applegate]

Shaun,
Thanks for speaking up and we need more lurkers to participate vigorously.

Now
allow me to do what I do best, for good or bad, and comment from kind of an outside perspective on these woodworking chatrooms in general and on other chatrooms besides this one in particular.

make sure that accurate information would get into the hands of inexperienced woodworkers like me.

What has alway amused me is that so many people hate to read, or can't read because they fall asleep as soon as they start to read (which I hear a lot)
yet
they go to a forum like this and read to discover how to solve problems in their wood working. Or to learn woodworking which would be even more questionable.
Knowing full well, I would assume anyway, that some of the junk they are going to have to read through is going to be just that.

What I am getting at is a forum, chatroom, club what have you is :
MORE than just a place to go learn something . . . it is a place to tell stories, hear stories, bang the table and argue, even when you might know you are wrong or just for the sake of BSing.

A place to talk to other woodworkers, because you like the type of person they are, about things other than just woodworking. I like "rat holes"; gives a person a chance to learn about the other members.
For instance . . . this thread.

So Shaun getting back to your comment and I am talking more to the other members maybe than I am to you but using your comment as a spring board . . .
if people want accurate information there are quicker and more reliable resources to glean it. Woodworking stores that rent DVDs and or books, the local public library for same . . . which is where I learned a great deal for not much $ long before there were forums and there is the more serious investment in lasting and accessible knowledge : buy books and magazines and start a personal library and if you are lucky take classes.

So . . . I for one enjoy the accurate info but more than that I come here for the other stuff.
Too.

[Winton Applegate]

Winton, that actually seemed to make sense......gotta shorten cocktail hour
Ha, ha
:)
:confused:
:eek:
:rolleyes:
I don't zackly know what you meant there but here are a few to pick from:

What I just said is starting to make sense so ​that could be a sign you have had too much to drink.
I may have had too much to drink and I should stop sooner from here on out.
You missed something that would verify that what I said was BS but you were having cocktails and missed it.

That I said we need to shorten cocktail hour . . . naw I can't even imagine myself saying that.

[Frederick Skelly]

Shaun,
Thanks for speaking up and we need more lurkers to participate vigorously.

Now
allow me to do what I do best, for good or bad, and comment from kind of an outside perspective on these woodworking chatrooms in general and on other chatrooms besides this one in particular.


What has alway amused me is that so many people hate to read, or can't read because they fall asleep as soon as they start to read (which I hear a lot)
yet
they go to a forum like this and read to discover how to solve problems in their wood working. Or to learn woodworking which would be even more questionable.
Knowing full well, I would assume anyway, that some of the junk they are going to have to read through is going to be just that.

What I am getting at is a forum, chatroom, club what have you is MORE than just a place to go learn something . . . it is a place to tell stories, hear stories, bang the table and argue, even when you might know you are wrong or just for the sake of BSing.

Talk to other woodworkers, because you like the type of person they are, about things other than just woodworking. I like "rat holes"; gives a person a chance to learn about the other members.
For instance . . . this thread.

So getting back to your comment and I am talking more to the other members maybe than I am to you but using your comment as a spring board . . .
if people want accurate information there are quicker and more reliable resources to glean it. Woodworking stores that rent DVDs and or books, the local public library for same . . . which is where I learned a great deal for not much $ long before there were forums and there is the more serious investment in lasting and accessible knowledge : buy books and magazines and start a personal library and if you are lucky take classes.

So . . . I for one enjoy the accurate info but more than that I come here for the other stuff.
Too.


Good points Win. I personally enjoy the whole gamut that you mention. I get alot of info here that I actually use too, in addition to the banter. I often ask for a check on an idea and the Community's answers often changes my course or save me time. As you mention, I read a lot of WW books for insight - just got Whelan's Making Traditional Wooden Planes today in the mail. But Im still learning to sort truths from fictions and appreciate it when more experienced guys can point out what might be innacurate info. For example, I learned a lot reading the saw hardness thread you mentioned in your first response to this thread.

Take care man. Keep us laughin'.
Fre

[Winton Applegate]

David is a true aficionado who generously provided solid info. A fine book could be done based on information he posted
here.
Hey thanks. As I often say I prefer my imagination to reality anyway so from now on I choose to imagine that David, hello David since I just learned you may be reading only but not posting, . . .
I choose to imagine that David is now taking a sit-baggetle and using the time to write a book.

[Stew Denton]

George, very good points. Also, I hadn't realized that the fellow was gone from here.

With regard to that fellow you are writing about, if it is the same thread I am thinking of (and I am pretty sure it is), he won't be missed from here at all, but David will be.

I think such fellows are a bit of a problem, if readers are not able to sort out who is correct. Folks can spend money for tools and mess up a project because of bad advise.

David may have been trying to fight the good fight to prevent such. It is sad to see the arrogant wind bags frustrate the good guys to the point that they leave.

I respect folks who have expressed other views, and think all folks who post should be treated kindly and with respect. However, I do not believe that every ones views are equally valid and useful.

Folks like the guy that left hurt themselves, often, more than others. If he would have combined what he knew, and his point was in fact valid, with what David and the others were trying to tell him he could have become a lot wiser. What he wrote was correct, but he was missing the big picture and he wouldn't listen to those that did see it.

I saw a very sharp young man with a similar attitude fired from a good job, he thought he knew it all, refused to give others credit for their contributions, would not listen to others, and in short no one could stand to work with the guy. Too bad, very sharp young man.

At any rate, I appreciated your comment, and hope that David may eventually decide to come back.

Stew

[Roger Rettenmeier]

As a somewhat newbie to the site, I Lurked before posting. Gives a chance to sort truth. I'll take Davids Truth before style, Thanx

[Rob Lee]

I'll miss reading David's posts here - I appreciate the time he's spent writing for the benefit of us all.

Cheers -

Rob

[Charles Bjorgen]

For you users of wooden planes, David posted a new video on YouTube about solving problems of shavings clogging up in the throat of these planes. I have acquired three coffin smoothers recently, all of which have this problem. It seems to be pretty good information that I will try to use. Just search YouTube on "David W" and you'll find it along with his series on making a wooden try plane.

[Mike Brady]

Dave's not even lurking here. I put a PM in his box and he has not read it yet, or he would have pinged me, I'm sure. I'm not sure his current forum hangout has PM capability.

[Bruce Haugen]

WC does not have PM capability, but it has something just as good. Check it out.

[Dave Anderson NH]

As a point of information, when anyone moves from being a member to a guest they no longer have access to their profile and Private Messages so they are unable to respond.

[Moses Yoder]

I was away most of the day, but I have read most of this thread.

It is hard to know what to say here. It is frustrating to have people without much experience suggest one does not know what he is talking about. That some clumsy blogger must be a higher authority. Or many other examples in this vein

I would encourage you not to give up because of that. There are a lot of people who see through the sham and know real wisdom when they see it.

[Bruce Mack]

I too am sorry David left.

[Winton Applegate]

Well we got to get this thread to 100 posts
right ?
I was going to say that often a person can leave a comment/message on the YouTube some one has put up.
I decided to actually look to verify that his was taking comments.
I went to YouTube and entered various version of : david weaver making wooden hand plane
and got nada. Maybe I didn't look through enough pages.

As far as watching an instructional vid on wooden hand plane making I would probably be more inclined to get ahold of Old Street Tools plane making DVDs.

But anyway . . . who is going to go for 100 ?
We could even turn this into a 6000 post thread like we did in another forum. Of course there might be a post or two about how to tune your snow blower and theoretical discussions about which snow blower David owns based on his sensibilities and general tool preferences . . .

PS: Oh bajaysas I clocked it. I thought I was #98

[Shaun Mahood]

Winton, try searching on youtube for "making a double iron beech try plane"

[Winton Applegate]

Thanks Shaun.
side note when I looked at the main Neander page it showed you posted the 100th post; when I opened the thread it shows you posted #101.
Sorry . . . i got a little stuck on that . . . I'm better now.

[Kyle DuPont]

For anyone else having difficulty.

https://www.youtube.com/user/daw162

[Christopher Charles]

Chris G., Glad hear that you are doing well and are absent because, as Warren Buffet implores people to do, you are investing in yourself. I have thought of your contributions often while reading this thread as well.

Cheers,
C

[Daniel Rode]

This is not my sandbox. If I want to participate here, I have to work within the rules. I may not agree, but I cooperate.

However, on a personal level, I don't place too high a value on friendliness and inclusiveness. They're nice, but not at the top of my list. It's like a hug from a teacher. Nice, but it won't help me learn algebra. Maybe I'm old fashioned (or just getting old) but I prefer to trade in information and I enjoy spirited (but polite) debate. Being told I am wrong is not mean. I should put on my big boy pants and either respond with facts or accept that I might actually be...

...wrong. :eek:

In today's society, we seem utterly focused on developing personalities akin to hothouse flowers. All opinions must be respected and all points of view are equally valid. Everyone gets a ribbon, a pat on the back and are told they won. We deign to tell anyone they are wrong. Correction is taken as demeaning rather than instructive. I'm no psychologist but I'd guess that leads to a sad combination of arrogance and ignorance. Intellectual entitlement, perhaps.

My doctor spent many years studying and practicing medicine. My gardner knows a lot about plants and lawn equipment. Asking my doctor for advice on feeding a hibiscus may or may not yield good results. Asking my gardner about that lump under my arm might lead to catastrophic results.

All opinions are not equal.

[Bruce Haugen]

Tsk, tsk, here's to unstucking you, Winton:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9qjHMwL-dj4

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Daniel,

Nobody has said all opinions are equal....only that every member has a right to state an opinion in agreement or disagreement and be treated respectfully.

I hope as a society we haven't become so bigoted as to think someone doesn't have a right to have and state an opinion that goes against our own. I hope we haven't become so narrow-minded, so self-righteous to believe it's okay to publicly attack those with whom we disagree or suggest their opinion be removed because it differs. If we don't respect the right of others to have a differing opinion, how can we expect to have our own differing opinion respected in a discussion?


But none of this has anything to do with David's decision to leave SMC. He left by his own wishes......he didn't burn any bridges.....and he can return by his own wish.......

[Frank Martin]

I too hope David returns here. As for this forum, there are things I don't personally agree as well, but over time one learns to sift through information and form their own opinion. I also have to add that while sometimes it feels there are some restrictive moderation decisions this is still the best forum I know for woodworking information in part because of the moderation itself to keep thngs focused.

[Harold Burrell]

Nobody has said all opinions are equal....

That's right. Everyone knows that my opinions are more equal than other's.

[Daniel Rode]

I agree that everyone should be able to state an opinion. Moreover, I think discussions that include a variety of opinions are the most interesting and fruitful. I believe that courteous but assertive debate is what brings ideas with the greatest value to the forefront.

I'm confident I never mentioned public attacks or removing divergent opinions. In fact, that is the complete opposite of what I would prefer.

No one should be "attacked" for expressing an opinion but by the same token, those ideas should be fair game for debate. If one wants to opine without rebuttal, a blog might be a better venue than a forum. Baring rigorous debate, weak and incorrect ideas have as much weight as the strong and vetted.


Daniel,

Nobody has said all opinions are equal....only that every member has a right to state an opinion in agreement or disagreement and be treated respectfully.

I hope as a society we haven't become so bigoted as to think someone doesn't have a right to have and state an opinion that goes against our own. I hope we haven't become so narrow-minded, so self-righteous to believe it's okay to publicly attack those with whom we disagree or suggest their opinion be removed because it differs. If we don't respect the right of others to have a differing opinion, how can we expect to have our own differing opinion respected in a discussion?


But none of this has anything to do with David's decision to leave SMC. He left by his own wishes......he didn't burn any bridges.....and he can return by his own wish.......

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I agree that everyone should be able to state an opinion. Moreover, I think discussions that include a variety of opinions are the most interesting and fruitful. I believe that courteous but assertive debate is what brings ideas with the greatest value to the forefront.

I'm confident I never mentioned public attacks or removing divergent opinions. In fact, that is the complete opposite of what I would prefer.

No one should be "attacked" for expressing an opinion but by the same token, those ideas should be fair game for debate. If one wants to opine without rebuttal, a blog might be a better venue than a forum. Baring rigorous debate, weak and incorrect ideas have as much weight as the strong and vetted.

Dan,

I couldn't agree more.

I mentioned "attacking those with differing opinions or removing them" only because as a society in public that seems to be the popular thing to do these days and earlier in this thread there was a subtle hint that those who dared disagree with the popular "experts" should have their comments removed.

Personally I have averted a lot of mistakes in life by listening to differing opinions and realizing the errors in my thoughts.

[Judson Green]

Wait a minute.... You have a gardner?



This is not my sandbox. If I want to participate here, I have to work within the rules. I may not agree, but I cooperate.

However, on a personal level, I don't place too high a value on friendliness and inclusiveness. They're nice, but not at the top of my list. It's like a hug from a teacher. Nice, but it won't help me learn algebra. Maybe I'm old fashioned (or just getting old) but I prefer to trade in information and I enjoy spirited (but polite) debate. Being told I am wrong is not mean. I should put on my big boy pants and either respond with facts or accept that I might actually be...

...wrong. :eek:

In today's society, we seem utterly focused on developing personalities akin to hothouse flowers. All opinions must be respected and all points of view are equally valid. Everyone gets a ribbon, a pat on the back and are told they won. We deign to tell anyone they are wrong. Correction is taken as demeaning rather than instructive. I'm no psychologist but I'd guess that leads to a sad combination of arrogance and ignorance. Intellectual entitlement, perhaps.

My doctor spent many years studying and practicing medicine. My gardner knows a lot about plants and lawn equipment. Asking my doctor for advice on feeding a hibiscus may or may not yield good results. Asking my gardner about that lump under my arm might lead to catastrophic results.

All opinions are not equal.

[Daniel Rode]

I wish! I have to prune my own shrubs and mow my own grass. I was actually parroting an anecdote I heard years ago.


Wait a minute.... You have a gardner?

[Harold Burrell]

I wish! I have to prune my own shrubs and mow my own grass. I was actually parroting an anecdote I heard years ago.

Wait a minute...You have a parrot?

[Sean Hughto]

I wish! I have to eat my own crackers. ;)))

[Moses Yoder]

You are absolutely and unequivocally wrong about all opinions not being equal. An opinion is based on how we feel about something. Any good psychologist would tell you without a doubt all feelings are equally valid.


This is not my sandbox. If I want to participate here, I have to work within the rules. I may not agree, but I cooperate.

However, on a personal level, I don't place too high a value on friendliness and inclusiveness. They're nice, but not at the top of my list. It's like a hug from a teacher. Nice, but it won't help me learn algebra. Maybe I'm old fashioned (or just getting old) but I prefer to trade in information and I enjoy spirited (but polite) debate. Being told I am wrong is not mean. I should put on my big boy pants and either respond with facts or accept that I might actually be...

...wrong. :eek:

In today's society, we seem utterly focused on developing personalities akin to hothouse flowers. All opinions must be respected and all points of view are equally valid. Everyone gets a ribbon, a pat on the back and are told they won. We deign to tell anyone they are wrong. Correction is taken as demeaning rather than instructive. I'm no psychologist but I'd guess that leads to a sad combination of arrogance and ignorance. Intellectual entitlement, perhaps.

My doctor spent many years studying and practicing medicine. My gardner knows a lot about plants and lawn equipment. Asking my doctor for advice on feeding a hibiscus may or may not yield good results. Asking my gardner about that lump under my arm might lead to catastrophic results.

All opinions are not equal.

[Art Mann]

I have just struggled through every last post on this thread this morning and I am glad to see the conversation has lightened up a bit. :) I'm not a hand tool woodworker so I don't know much about the situation or the person who left the forum. It has been an interesting and thought provoking read though.

[Mike Henderson]

You are absolutely and unequivocally wrong about all opinions not being equal. An opinion is based on how we feel about something. Any good psychologist would tell you without a doubt all feelings are equally valid.
An opinion, in my opinion, is not always based on how we feel about something. It may be based on our understanding of the facts and circumstances of the event, circumstances, etc. Another person may be able to offer factual information about the underlying basis of our opinion, and based on those facts, we may change our mind (opinion) about the "something".

"Feelings" are generally not a good basis for an opinion about something, especially something that can be tested scientifically.

Mike

[Frederick Skelly]

You are absolutely and unequivocally wrong about all opinions not being equal. An opinion is based on how we feel about something. Any good psychologist would tell you without a doubt all feelings are equally valid.

I think I understand what you're saying, but I differ with you on this point: just because one has a right to hold/express an opinion, doesnt make his/her opinion equally VALID. Depends on topic, context, training, experience, etc. (The doctor/gardner example, above illustrates what Im saying.)

[Keith Outten]

There was a time when the most brilliant minds on this planet proclaimed that the earth was flat.
So much for experts and their opinions.

I've found that its best to listen to as many opinions as possible before deciding on a course of action, therefore every person here is afforded the same status. Most of the time the most valuable voice here at The Creek is the one who asks a question, without them there would rarely be any conversation only arguments among the experts.

[Jim Koepke]

Most of the time the most valuable voice here at The Creek is the one who asks a question

Earlier today my neighbor's sons came by. The older one is very curious and was asking a lot of questions. He eventually asked if it was bothersome of him to be asking so many of what must seem to be stupid questions. My response was about all questions being not stupid or the only stupid questions were the ones not asked. He then asked questions in rapid order as my answer was given another would be asked. After about four of these, he said, "well I guess I can't come up with a good and stupid question right now."

jtk

[george wilson]

So,I suppose that those who have spent their entire careers working wood have facts (opinions?) no better than a beginner? That does not make a lot of sense. It really doesn't. Opinions are based on feelings and feelings are not going to make you a better craftsman. Facts are. The two are different things. We all have feelings,but they are reserved for other things,not for how do you chop a mortise,etc..

I once saw a guitar made by a person who made them entirely based on his feelings. This was back in the hippie days.They had horrid looking trapezoid shaped sound holes in a normal classical guitar shaped body. He spaced the frets based on his feelings. The guitars would not play in tune at all! They were truly the worst looking guitars I ever saw. They were made entirely of redwood,even the fingerboards. They were left entirely un varnished.

Actually,the ancient Egyptians knew the Earth was round. They knew the diameter of the Earth,and the distance to the Sun. Columbus knew the Earth was round. Otherwise,he wouldn't have tried to sail a long way. The ignorant crew were afraid they'd sail off the edge of the Earth.

Don't forget,experts cured polio,and invented the modern World. There is nothing wrong with expertise. It is how the human race got out of caves.

I once took my new car to a mechanic who told me that the automatic choke spring had been installed backwards. He turned it around for me. I was later on juggling hot parts by the side of the road turning the spring back around the right way with only a pen knife to turn screws!! My carb had slammed shut! After that,I sought a mechanic with more expertise! I really needed an expert to get to work on time(and clean!!!)

But,as for me,I am done trying to protect new woodworkers. If a person comes here and says that a steel tool is harder than carbide,I'm going to say that's just fine, and, hey, I agree, and I'm going to be nice.

If you want to throw me off of here for saying this,I cannot prevent you.

[ian maybury]

There's a few matters (and lots more) it seems to me that are important in a forum and/or working environment. It's never simple:

By definition the wisest or most profound view in a given situation tends not to be the majority/commonly held one.
Strength typically lies in a diversity of views - beware when all agree.
From that perspective - differing backgrounds tend to produce differing and highly useful inputs.
There's no absolute right or wrong. Only a best for the moment view in a given situation. It's a moving and highly relative target…
Few are ready to do the work to gain an in depth understanding. Most want a quickie and pat answer.
Always drive for the deepest possible and most holistic level of understanding, adopt methods because they make the best sense. Don't ever (except conditionally) adopt a view just because x,y, says so, because it's the concensus, dominant ideology or whatever.
The best solutions are typically highly nuanced, situation specific and take into account and balance many variables. They are rarely easy to sell...
There's as a result stuff that definitely doesn't work, and stuff that frequently does - but very rarely a black and white absolutely right or wrong way to approach a given problem.
Few are capable of reaching an independent view - we're very heavily conditioned to avoid going against the hierarchy/tribal view, or else we play stuff for personal advantage. The latter often in a highly covert manner. e.g. we align ourselves with others or ideologies we regard as 'powerful' for example. Some prefer to cheerlead..
It's not about the creation of some sort of pack hierarchy, with an alpha technocrat, some superior ideology or whatever to whom/which all defer.
It's consequently inappropriate that any individual should seek to work themselves into such a position, nor that others keen to see order should endeavour to bring this about.
Excessive attachment or aversion to any view almost inevitably leads to anger or discomfort - we feel threatened, or want to force our view on another.
We're none of us responsible for knocking others into shape, or forcing our view or status on others - our role is just to say our bit in the wisest possible manner if it feels right.
Ignorance (as in lack of knowledge/knowing/experince) can however have costly consequences, so...
Respect for wisdom is consequently appropriate. That's genuinely earned respect that's proven its credentials, and not e.g. respect given by virtue of power, position or whatever.
Respect for another does not entail always (or even ever) agreeing with that person.
Reasoned and reasonable diagreement is not criticism, and may in fact mask large areas of common ground.
Agreement is likewise not always unconditional, or complete.
The most valuable input is often that which bounces us out of our comfort zone/bubble of certainty to trigger fresh insight and improved ways of seeing.
What we perceive in a given situation is typically heavily conditioned by our beliefs and expectations, and will likely be very different to what another sees.
We're each on a personal journey, learning whatever lessons happen to be relevant in our life situation. Maybe for many it's nothing to do with the woodworking at all, it's just a vehicle for bringing us into contact with others with whom we must learn to relate..

Etc

[Patrick Bernardo]

I too miss David. He was a voice of reason, and fearlessly fought against the current when he knew that he was right.

In the spirit of David, I'd like to point out that the idea that people - sailors in particular - believed that the Earth was flat is a myth. All educated people - all of them - in the West since the Greeks understood that the Earth was round. Sailors knew the Earth was round, since their navigational instruments depended upon the curvature of the Earth and due to the simple fact of the way in which ships appear and disappear over the horizon. The myth was originally cooked up by Protestants who were trying to slur Catholics and claimed that people were stupid during the 'so-called' Middle Ages. Columbus knew it was round, his crew knew it was round, the kings and queens of Europe knew it was round.

[Joe Leigh]

"But,as for me,I am done trying to protect new woodworkers. If a person comes here and says that a steel tool is harder than carbide,I'm going to say that's just fine, and, hey, I agree, and I'm going to be nice.
If you want to throw me off of here for saying this,I cannot prevent you."

Why would anyone remove you from this forum for making a benign comment like that? And why do you feel as though you have to protect new woodworkers? As as far as I know everyone's participation here is voluntary. You are free to come and go like David did and many others before him have.

You have a wealth of knowledge that would surely be missed by many here, but they would get their help elsewhere and this forum would go on. Keep in mind that not every member comes here for specific detailed information. Some come to chat with people that have a common interest or to share techniques. Others come for the entertainment value.

[george wilson]

Sailors knew that the farther South they sailed,the lower in the night sky their navigating stars fell,until they went below the horizon,creating navigational problems. One reason they needed an accurate clock. Only on a ball are the stars going to do that.

An astronomer explained to me how the Ancient Egyptians knew these things about the diameter of the Earth and the distance to the Sun. A few simple diagrams and use of triangles made it easily clear.

The Vikings sailed great distances with a simple "Sun board",which,though on TV recently,was actually factual,and extremely ingenious. They did not yet have the compass.

Joe,I grew up in a very near vacuum where I had to learn every scrap of knowledge the hard way. Alaska in the 50's was not an intellectual environment,nor were light houses. I guess I know how hard knowledge is to come by. At least,it used to be. It really might be even harder today,with so much information,much of dubious veracity available.

I was raised to make me believe that everything that went wrong was my fault. Including my mother running away with the wrong man at 18,before I was born. A horrible childhood can mess up your head. I guess these things have given me the screwy idea that I should protect those who are trying to learn. I guess I have the crazy idea that if they don't get a straight answer,it's my fault. Been thinking about this lately. Aren't people completely nuts?

I know I've been too harsh on some issues. And,I'm the bad guy to some. That is really what this and the whole David thing is about. I need to rid myself of trying to protect new comers. That's true. I have trained quite a few un grateful apprentices. And a very few who were grateful. One of my best high school pupils came to see me a few years after I came to the museum. He said he gave up on the new teacher after he saw the guy try to sharpen a circular saw with a wood rasp! I did feel appreciated by that student.

It seems a little strange to me that someone would come to a technical site just for entertainment. Things like endless discussions on what stones to use,and the like don't seem that entertaining to me. Maybe I'm wrong,but I'd think that if someone wanted entertainment,they could find a more exciting site with action,adventure,romance,etc..:)

[Frederick Skelly]

George, thanks for teaching us all, and especially for patiently teaching me. We appreciate your participation here and value your advice Sir!
Respectfully,
Fred

[Jim Koepke]

It seems a little strange to me that someone would come to a technical site just for entertainment.

+1 on that.

My reason for reading posts here is an attempt to glean every bit of information offered. In return if anyone makes an inquiry about something within my knowledge, it is answered to the best of my understanding.

What has bothered me one time or another is when someone asks why something happens or how to accomplish a task and my reply answers on various levels then someone chimes in, not with a better nor even a different answer, but with a condemnation of my answer for being more than what the original poster may have wanted. Of course the original poster didn't complain.

There are people of many types who participate on many levels. They range from the lurkers trying to learn more about the art of woodworking, to the novice who wants to learn more and share what they have learned, to the masters of the art who give of their time to share what they have done and help others with inspiration, instruction and even hope that someday we might be able to produce just one piece so beautiful.

My standard reply to sharpening problems brought here by beginners is to keep it simple. Usually there is someone who insists the person should use a secondary bevel, camber the blade and don't forget back bevels and ruler tricks. With so many different things going on in the pursuit of a sharp edge, how is a person just learning about creating a sharp edge supposed to figure out what went wrong when it doesn't work?

Where did this soap box come from and why am I standing on it?

jtk

[Steve Voigt]

I once saw a guitar made by a person who made them entirely based on his feelings. This was back in the hippie days.They had horrid looking trapezoid shaped sound holes in a normal classical guitar shaped body. He spaced the frets based on his feelings. The guitars would not play in tune at all! They were truly the worst looking guitars I ever saw.



But that's nothing a nice fat spliff won't fix! :p

[Stew Denton]

George,

One more +1 on what you are trying to teach us.

That said, I think that learning is as much in the attitude of the student as in the knowledge of the one doing the teaching. For that reason, I don't think you can protect those who already think that they know it all, and don't have the good sense to listen. No one can totally protect such folks.

I for one do appreciate that you, and folks like David as well when he was here, try to keep the rest of us from making obvious errors, some of which can even be dangerous. Even if you only post the idea one time, some of us know enough to pay careful attention, because we know that you have been down the this road quite a ways farther than some of the rest of us will ever go.

I have made plenty of foolish mistakes trying to do woodwork, especially when I was a lot younger, so know things can happen. They almost never happen to me now, because I have learned the hard way more than once, and learned from those errors.

What I am trying to say is that I hope you will continue to look out for the ones of us that want to listen, even though there are a few who show little appreciation.

Jim, I think that you are dead right. Beginners need to learn how to walk before they can run.

Stew

[Bob Woodburn]

I was raised to make me believe that everything that went wrong was my fault. Including my mother running away with the wrong man at 18,before I was born. A horrible childhood can mess up your head. I guess these things have given me the screwy idea that I should protect those who are trying to learn. I guess I have the crazy idea that if they don't get a straight answer,it's my fault. Been thinking about this lately. Aren't people completely nuts?

I know I've been too harsh on some issues. And,I'm the bad guy to some. That is really what this and the whole David thing is about. I need to rid myself of trying to protect new comers. That's true.

George, I don't know you, but have read you here and elsewhere for many years. It is admirable that you feel responsible to speak up for (and to) the young and naive. I can imagine you especially learned the harm of silent adult voices in your boyhood when no one was speaking up for you.

"... I'm the bad guy...That is really what this and the whole David thing is about."

I take this to imply that you feel personal guilt for David's departure, that you failed to speak up for him, that he has been harmed and it's your fault! Worse, a torment that goes back decades in time to childhood has come alive for you. Would you agree?

If you do, this bothers me. Your pain bothers me. You did nothing to deserve it. It is unfair. I hope you can be persuaded that the foibles of us witless humans are not your fault. I think your commitment to feeding pearls to what may at times appear to be young swine is commendable. I wound say you are a successful human, not a failure.

Best wishes, Bob

[george wilson]

Bob,no,I don't feel responsible for David leaving. He is plenty smart enough to think for himself. Thank you and the others for your support.

[John Coloccia]

Say George, if you're going to take responsibility for all the bad woodworking in the world, that's going to be quite an undertaking...

[Jim Koepke]

But that's nothing a nice fat spliff won't fix! :p

Careful, that isn't legal in Virginia… yet.

Besides, one has to be really drunk or smoked for ugly to not still be ugly.

jtk

[Christopher Charles]

I watched a couple of David's videos and if he's absent in part because he's devoting his energies to the video effort, I think that's great. While I would encourage him to buy a tripod (or work toward smoother camera movements), beyond that, they're great--long, and provide lots of detail and tidbits for the careful observer.

C

[george wilson]

Thanks,Jim. I didn't know what a spiff was!

I think David just uses his phone for a camera. That might explain some of the bad video techniques. These new phones are wonders!

There are issues here that I'd best not mention that are the cause of David leaving. 3 or 4 times I persuaded him to stay,but he decided enough was enough.

[Moses Yoder]

I have been thinking about this. Lets say I am educated in astronomy and I say the moon is covered in space dust. (Just imagining). The guy beside me is a gynecologist and he claims the moon is covered in cheese. At this point, these are both opinions; no "facts" have been presented to demonstrate the validity of the opinion, therefore both opinions are equally valid and neither can be discounted based on our impression of the person presenting them. In order to discount either opinion we must examine the evidence for ourselves. The fact is that we often accept an opinion from an educated person based simply on our trust of them, and not based on any facts. In most people's opinion, if a person holds an opinion about something they have a degree in then their opinion is regarded as having more validity than the person who does not have a degree, and they hold a higher opinion of the educated person regardless of whether they have examined the facts themselves.


I think I understand what you're saying, but I differ with you on this point: just because one has a right to hold/express an opinion, doesnt make his/her opinion equally VALID. Depends on topic, context, training, experience, etc. (The doctor/gardner example, above illustrates what Im saying.)

[Tony Shea]

So how do I go about searching David's videos on youtube? I can't seem to come up with them.

[Hilton Ralphs]

So how do I go about searching David's videos on youtube? I can't seem to come up with them.

Go here (https://www.youtube.com/user/daw162/videos) Tony.

[Shawn Pixley]

It seems a little strange to me that someone would come to a technical site just for entertainment.

I don't find that strange at all. I read books on math analysis and number theory just for entertainment. If that isn't obtuse and technical... Of course, I am continuously told that my brain doesn't work like others.

[Art Mann]

I don't find that strange at all. I read books on math analysis and number theory just for entertainment. If that isn't obtuse and technical... Of course, I am continuously told that my brain doesn't work like others.

Shawn, you do realize that yesterday, 3.14, was National Pi day and 15:09 was Pi minute? ;)

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Shawn, you do realize that yesterday, 3.14, was National Pi day and 15:09 was Pi minute? ;)

By coincidence my wife and I shared a slice of pie to celebrate actually, thought we were the only nerds out there! We were off on the minutes though.

[ian maybury]

+3 here on the matter of less than mainstream 'interests'… (and no, i don't mean that sort…)

At risk of sounding presumptuous, and regardless of whatever circumstance led to DW pulling back for a while. He's more than done his bit by way of contribution, and there's yards of posts up there setting out his thinking. My advice to those hauling out the sackcloth and ashes is to just get on with it - there's every resource possible there, and others who will fill the gap/interpret if needed. He's under no obligation to function as an unpaid advice centre. ;) Any more than that any of us is entitled to treat another as same. Or for that matter that it's healthy for a forum to slide into group think, or for some sort of techno pecking order to get established, or that there is in fact some single objective truth in these maters to be revered as the holy grail and passed on through the generations...

Next thing it gets like the famous musician whose fan base holds him prisoner because every time he/she tries to move on musically they dump on him..

It'd be nice if he drops in again, but as a person to engage in some constructive and healthy debate with, and to have some fun with...

[Dan Hintz]

Of course, I am continuously told that my brain doesn't work like others.

A number of us are told that... we're just not numerous enough to make it commonplace. But we're out there... <raises glass> Cheers!

[Sean Hughto]

No, Moses, that's just not rational. It may make ignorant people feel better to claim that facts and experience do not exist until they themselves have gathered their own experience, but it is just narcissistic denial. Facts exist and experience counts before you've verified it personally.

For example, if you need heart surgery, are you going to go to med school before you get it? You know, to verify the surgeons diagnosis and surgical plan. Or if your trash collector has some opinions and thinks he might be able to pull it off, will you let him?

[ian maybury]

As ever Sean it's surely about balance and good judgement? If it was a case of your surgeon clinging tightly to the ways of his predecessors (and there's more than enough doing that in a negative way already) you'd be told there was nothing to be done, or more likely (since the former wouldn't generate any income) he'd bring out the leeches and the bleeding gear. (or even a hacksaw, and crew of heavies to hold you down) Which wouldn't be a whole lot better than the other polarity - our mythical surgeon who decided yesterday that he was going to be one, and who bound by some daft ideology refuses to take other's experience on board and is making it up as he goes along.

Of course there's good solutions and bad solutions, and of course there's expertise that we all do well to draw upon. The trouble though is that there's lots of crap and deceit about too - plus what's good practice changes over time. Yet in life (medicine very much included) we're often blinded by our conditioning into accepting the expertise of some dude by virtue of his e.g. position, certification/papers, image, social standing or other cue (that he's screwed lots out of their money and got rich in doing so is a common one) rather than any real track record in the topic of interest to you. Much less that he has any genuine interest in helping you out.

Suspend your disbelief/set aside your personal judgement and critical faculties for one moment and stop taking responsibility for yourself and you can be pretty certain that you'll be quickly sold a pup.

Out of medicine (and this is very much based on long and hard personal experience) surgeons - while they truly heal nothing - may not be the best example. The nature of the discipline and the clear linkage of cause and consequence is such that if they get it wrong people die and they end up in court getting the hell sued out of them. Which is far from the case with the vast majority of medicine that deals in more obscure and less well understood conditions where the smoke and mirrors are much more effective...

[george wilson]

Shawn: I want you to google "Tony Griffiths Engineering". It is the World's largest site on lathe and milling machine information,and other associated machinery. I went to England to visit Tony,in addition to touring museums there.

I have read every single machine that is listed there,and have left a few machinist tricks of the trade. Now,THAT'S being a techno Nerd. I also subscribe to "Science News" magazine,and "Smithsonian".

[Sean Hughto]

Ian, there are always ignorant people who do not want to feel inferior. They resent more educated folks telling them what to do or telling them about facts as it highlights their own ignorance. They take knowledge as an offense because it makes them feel less than. As a defense mechanism for protecting their egos, they essentially assert that their ignorance is as good as your knowledge (to paraphrase Asimov). They are suspicious that the educated are looking down on them, so they try to deny that knowledge is real, and claim their "feelings" or "opinions" are just as good as an expert's empiraclly proven facts or years of real world experience. The fee fees of the ignorant are delicate indeed.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

And to think all this started with "Hey, has anyone heard from David Weaver?"

[Tony Zaffuto]

Well, have any of you heard from David????

[george wilson]

David is doing fine. We spent over an hour on the phone last night,talking mostly about shooting.

[Pat Barry]

It seems that recently the tension level has decreased on this forum. There are still differences of opinion of course, just not the drama. No doubt there are many reasons for this but a big part is that the posts seem to be a bit more congenial. That is a good thing.

[ian maybury]

Pardon my cutting across. Agreed Sean, there's always plenty holding views informed more by wanna something or other than by reality. Including as before what is often the majority view - the higher view is rarely mainstream...

[Shawn Pixley]

Shawn, you do realize that yesterday, 3.14, was National Pi day and 15:09 was Pi minute? ;)

Really?

The way I calculate it: 3/14/(20)15 @ 9:26 & 15 Seconds (UTC of course). My shop dog, Pi (deaf) thinks every day is Pi day.

[Shawn Pixley]

A number of us are told that... we're just not numerous enough to make it commonplace. But we're out there... <raises glass> Cheers!

Cheers to you as well!

[Mel Fulks]

You guys are SMART. Accepting that 'brain works differently' description could make some doctor want to cure you with
the old ice pick operation!

[Shawn Pixley]

Shawn: I want you to google "Tony Griffiths Engineering". It is the World's largest site on lathe and milling machine information,and other associated machinery. I went to England to visit Tony,in addition to touring museums there.

I have read every single machine that is listed there,and have left a few machinist tricks of the trade. Now,THAT'S being a techno Nerd. I also subscribe to "Science News" magazine,and "Smithsonian".

George,

I really figured that you were like me in this respect. I was surprised at your comment about browsing technical sites for entertainment.

My grandfather (my mentor) would have been all over the Tony Griffiths Engineering Site. he was both an Electrical and mechanical engineer working at Bell Labs during the war (on radar). Personally, I am more onto the hard science magazines like The Scientist (Mag), or browsing the NIH Publications (online), Archeology, Astronomy, or Quantum Mechanics (Cern).

Admittedly, my interests in STEM are pretty much exclusively to the Science and Math ends. I don't have a great deal of personal interest in the Technology or Engineering side. (Though I have a tremendous respect for it). This make for interesting debates at parties as to whether we should travel to the moon again.

I am sure there are others like us here as well.

[Shawn Pixley]

I have been thinking about this. Lets say I am educated in astronomy and I say the moon is covered in space dust. (Just imagining). The guy beside me is a gynecologist and he claims the moon is covered in cheese. At this point, these are both opinions; no "facts" have been presented to demonstrate the validity of the opinion, therefore both opinions are equally valid and neither can be discounted based on our impression of the person presenting them. In order to discount either opinion we must examine the evidence for ourselves. The fact is that we often accept an opinion from an educated person based simply on our trust of them, and not based on any facts. In most people's opinion, if a person holds an opinion about something they have a degree in then their opinion is regarded as having more validity than the person who does not have a degree, and they hold a higher opinion of the educated person regardless of whether they have examined the facts themselves.

Moses, have you heard the scientist / turtle joke? (I'll PM it to you if interested)

With your example above, initially, they are both statements of opinion. However one of the two people can produce facts and evidence to support their assertion. The other, maybe not.

However, where there is not a single right answer, things get more complicated. No one can prove nor disprove an assertion that Imperial or Metric dimensional measurements are more accurate. One can prefer one method to the other. And in the course of our everyday life, it really doesn't matter. We pick one or both and use it (or them). But when one maintains that one form of measurement is superior, the donnybrook ensues. The point is there is not likely to be a significant problem when there is a single answer. But when there are multivariate conditions, subjective viewpoints, and / or many different means of achieving an end - the "learned expertise" becomes much less clear.

My favorite quote around this is, "My Kung Fu is better than your Kung Fu."

Sometimes we humans create solutions looking for a problem.

[Shawn Pixley]

You guys are SMART. Accepting that 'brain works differently' description could make some doctor want to cure you with
the old ice pick operation!

I am just gratified that my wife doesn't smother me in my sleep.

[Hilton Ralphs]

David is doing fine. We spent over an hour on the phone last night,talking mostly about shooting.

This seems somewhat drastic. I'm sure whoever offended David should rather just get the usual ban from the mods or opt for 21 strokes with the Cat o' nine tails (like we do here in Africa for speeding offences).

[Keith Outten]

There has not been a violation of the rules in this case so there was no cause to ban anyone. David Weaver resigned from this Community and it was his choice for personal reasons.