Round 1 Of Simple Questions Before Buying New Laser Engraver

[Ron Gosnell]

Hi Everyone,
This is my first post and I am hoping that you can help me make a couple of informed decisions before purchasing a new machine. These are probably some really simplistic questions for you veterans but please keep in mind that I am absolutely starting from the beginning. I have been reading and studying for a while now and I think these first questions would start me inthe right direction.

1. I know that the spot size of the laser tube increases with wattage and that a 40 watt tube spot size will engrave better than a 100 watt tube. I know that a 100 watt tube will cut thicker materials cleaner and faster.My first intentions of use will be mainly cutting and engraving on 3/4"(19mm) pine but I would like to also engrave and cut on other materials too. So my first question is how much less is the quality of engraving on a 100-130 watt machine versus a 40-60 watt model? Could a high resolution lens on a 100-130 watt machine engrave as fine as a standard lens on a 40-60 watt model?

2. Power control. Do you have less power control over a 100-130 watt machine than you do on a 40-60 watt model. Can I turn the power down low enough to engrave anodized aluminum or marble? Would an 80 watt model be a better compromise for engraving? Would 80 watts be enough to cut 3/4"pine or similar woods with good quality cuts?

3. Table size. I'm thinking a 36"x24" would suit my needs but I may go up a notch if a larger platform model would not be anymore difficult to keep aligned, adjusted and squared than a smaller machine. Do larger platforms cause more problems or need more maintenance.

That's it for round one. Hopefully my next set of questions will be more intelligent as I go and more stimulating for you to read. Thank you all so much in advance. I am looking forward to some good discussions.

Gozzie

[Scott Shepherd]

You're not going to cut 3/4" thick pine with a 40-60 watt or a 100 watt.

Are you talking Chinese machines or western machines? The spot size/quality doesn't change like that on Western machines.

[Gary Hair]

1. I know that the spot size of the laser tube increases with wattage
That's really only going to matter on a Chinese tube, not so much on a metal tube.


2. Power control. Do you have less power control over a 100-130 watt machine than you do on a 40-60 watt model.
It's not that you don't have as much control, it's that you are working with a larger number. ie. if you have a 130 watt machine and turn it down to 10%, then you (in theory) have 13 watts. On a 40 watt machine you would have 4 watts at the same 10% setting. It can get tricky to dial in settings when each percent represents such a large number.


Would 80 watts be enough to cut 3/4"pine or similar woods with good quality cuts?
I'm not sure how many watts you would need to cut 3/4" *anything*, but my guess is that you would need multiple hundreds of watts - 200, 300, 400. As for "quality" - anything powerful enough to get through 3/4" of wood is going to leave quite a bit of charring. A cnc router or a waterjet would be more suitable.


Do larger platforms cause more problems or need more maintenance.
No. Get the biggest bed size you can afford to get - you won't be sorry!

[John Bion]

Welcome! To underscore what Steve said: cutting 3/4" pine is a non starter. Engraving pine is awkward too, due to the grain, this would make photos near hopeless, but may look ok for some other things, depending on perspective.
kind regards, John

[Ron Gosnell]

That's why I am so glad that I ask questions.

Here is a video I watched on a Chinese machine cutting 18mm wood (.70 inches) It appeared to do so effortlessly and the cuts look great. It doesn't say what kind of wood. It does say it's a 130 watt machine. The other videos I watched from the same company show some pretty good engraving but on a lower powered machine. So now am I correct in assuming that this is advertising fluff? I am very grateful for your responses and this is exactly why. I am trying to learn real world answers and get away from the hype of advertisers. Here is the you tube link https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=48tuHRqLup4

I am definitely not a rich man and undoubtedly will have to go with a Chinese model but I still want to get the best bang for the dollar I can get. I want something powerful enough to cut but still able to engrave fairly decently. More clipart and text engraving than photographic but that could change too. That's what makes this so crazy for us new guys. I just don't know anything about it. It looks like a lot of fun. I don't want to be disgruntled with myself again by making an uneducated purchase. I am going into retirement and it looks like a fantastic hobby to get into. I cant thank you folks enough for your input. Are there any opinions on wattage that can average out on cutting versus engraving on a Chinese model (water cooled) 80 - 100 -130?

Thank you again for the responses, I am very excited about the whole thing.

Gozzie

[Scott Shepherd]

Sure, anything is possible, but the question is, is it practical. The edges are charred, so you'll have to spend time figuring out how to clean that, since every time you touch it, you'll transfer the black to anything you touch, and it's cutting VERY slow when compared to a CNC router. Is it possible? Sure. Is it practical? Not so much. You might have specific stuff that works well for that, but I couldn't make things that slow and stay in business.

[David Somers]

Welcome Gozzie!

What I have been getting from everyone on the forum as I went through the process you have gone through is that 80watt is about as high as you want to go IF you are interested BOTH in high quality engraving and efficient cutting on the same machine. Once you exceed that you get better at cutting and worse at engraving. For that reason I went with an 80 watt EFR tube (Chinese machine.)

The next question that comes to mind is.....is this a business machine? Or a putzing around machine? If it is business you may want to look harder at western machines and use financing to do it. Provided you have done your homework in terms of your business model of course. If you are looking for something that is still local to the US but far less expensive than a Western Machine you might check out Rabbit Laser USA in Ohio. They offer Chinese machines that have been thoroughly gone over and even deliver it to your door with a days worth of setup and help getting going. And they will support you from then on without problem. They are well thought of on the forum if you care to do a search on them.

In my case, the laser was not my primary tool and I was looking for something that would help me in a retirement, semi paying serious hobby. It was very difficult for me to swallow the price of a western machine. As much as I think of Ray Scott and Rabbit, I had problems even with their cost for what I wanted to do and finally decided to go direct to China. There were some other things I was looking for in a machine as well that tended to push me towards a Chinese machine. Seems fine so far but I haven't done much yet beyond uncrating and setup. If you are looking for business use here in the US I might be pretty tempted to shoot for a western machine right off the bat, or a Rabbit as a second choice.

Can you give us an idea as to your use for the machine? Business or hobby? What kinds of broad things are you looking to do? What kind of volume are you hoping for? Think in terms of engraving and cutting as separate concepts, and also let us know what materials you hope to work on most of the time.

Hope this ends up as a fun process for you Gozzie! It certainly has been for me thanks to everyone here!!

Dave
PS....you might put your location into your profile so we can see where you are located. Perhaps city/state if in the US? Or at least country if you are elsewhere? Then you can get even more specific assistance for your area.

[Rich Harman]

Do larger platforms cause more problems or need more maintenance.

Yes. The beam path get longer the larger the table is. Therefore, an imperceptible alignment error on a small machine becomes an unacceptable error in a larger machine. Still, a large bed size is quite desirable.

[Rich Harman]

Would 80 watts be enough to cut 3/4"pine or similar woods with good quality cuts?

I haven't tried pine but I have cut 3/4" cedar and 3/4" oak at 80W with good results. It is of course slow and the edge is quite dark.

Here's a video of it cutting through the cedar;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3thY7JVDFig

[Scott Marquez]

As stated above, letting everyone know your intended price range and table size will help people give you better advice.
I am in the hunt for my first machine to cut fabrics for my custom sewing business, I want a 36" x 48" machine, so I sent my different fabric samples to Rabbit laser and they cut them and returned them to me. I learned that an 80 watt machine is too much for my thinnest nylon fabrics. I am very pleased with their help and am in the process of purchasing a 36 x 48" - 60 watt machine. This place has been a great place to learn from.
Scott

[Dave Sheldrake]

1. I know that the spot size of the laser tube increases with wattage and that a 40 watt tube spot size will engrave better than a 100 watt tube. I know that a 100 watt tube will cut thicker materials cleaner and faster.My first intentions of use will be mainly cutting and engraving on 3/4"(19mm) pine but I would like to also engrave and cut on other materials too. So my first question is how much less is the quality of engraving on a 100-130 watt machine versus a 40-60 watt model? Could a high resolution lens on a 100-130 watt machine engrave as fine as a standard lens on a 40-60 watt model?

Other way round, the incident beam of the more powerful tubes is bigger so the final spot is smaller given the same lens focal length. DC tube wise, anything much over 80 watts is close to useless for engraving for the reasons others gave (power stability etc)


2. Power control. Do you have less power control over a 100-130 watt machine than you do on a 40-60 watt model. Can I turn the power down low enough to engrave anodized aluminum or marble? Would an 80 watt model be a better compromise for engraving? Would 80 watts be enough to cut 3/4"pine or similar woods with good quality cuts?

Gary covered that really well.


3. Table size. I'm thinking a 36"x24" would suit my needs but I may go up a notch if a larger platform model would not be anymore difficult to keep aligned, adjusted and squared than a smaller machine. Do larger platforms cause more problems or need more maintenance.

The big flatbed lasers have gantry mounted tubes so the distance between the first and second mirror always stays the same (they are fixed) at about 100mm, add the overall length of the biggest Chinese gantry at 2,500mm and you have a max alignment distance of 2,600mm, now look at a 1200 x 900 machine, at the bottom right of the table you have a max alignment distance of 1200mm width, plus the 900 depth plus around 150mm from the tube exit so a total of 2250mm. Not much less than a machine with a bed size of 2500 x 1500mm.

It takes me about 20 minutes to align a 1200 x 900 machine and about 5 to 10 minutes to align one of the gantry mount flatbeds at 2500 x 1500.

cheers

Dave

[Ron Gosnell]

Can you give us an idea as to your use for the machine? Business or hobby? What kinds of broad things are you looking to do? What kind of volume are you hoping for? Think in terms of engraving and cutting as separate concepts, and also let us know what materials you hope to work on most of the time.

This will be used 100% hobby with no intentions of ever becoming a business. I am going to enjoy life with my wife (kids are gone). I have a 16 x 20 workshop to play in and nothing to play with. I am really intrigued by the video that Rich Harmon just posted engraving the Aztec calendars. I don't know if you guys consider that high resolution or not not but it looks super detailed to me. It looks like a lot of fun too. So I am looking to lets say, cut and engrave wood like that and build something out of it. Maybe a bird house, or just a door sign. To be able to cut different shapes and engrave it at the same time just tickles me and I think I could stay busy happily making silly items from scrap boards. I can run off all my friends and family making them key hangers and hat racks or door Signs and wind chimes. When I come for a visit I could watch them awkwardly figit around when I ask them why my wecome sign isn't hanging up outside their house yet. LOL

That being said, It looks like the machine Rich is using could be close to what I am looking for with a 36" minimum size table. Rich, your profile says you have a 130 watt machine but you are saying you cut the boards with 80 watts. Did you cut the boards with an 80 watt machine at full power or use a 130 watt model running at 80 watts?

Thank you everyone,

Gozzie

[Rich Harman]

Rich, your profile says you have a 130 watt machine but you are saying you cut the boards with 80 watts. Did you cut the boards with an 80 watt machine at full power or use a 130 watt model running at 80 watts?

I originally had an 80W tube in the machine. Last year I upgraded to a 130w because I mostly do cutting and the extra speed means more money. That tube failed but it was replaced under warranty by Reci. A smooth process actually. Aside from the fact that the 130W can cut faster I much prefer the 80W Reci tube, my original tube is still as good as it was on day one. Without a real good reason for more power I would strongly recommend the 80W.

Look at this thread for a comparison of resolution between my Chinese laser and the sample that Epilog sends out.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?170732-Lasers-do-you-get-what-you-pay-for/page2
(http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?170732-Lasers-do-you-get-what-you-pay-for/page2)
For non-production use, you can get the same results with the Chinese machine. If it is your business to produce those results then a mainstream machine is going to be better.

[Rich Harman]

It sounds like a Chinese machine is just right for you. The caveat is that you should be prepared to "fix" it. To get the most out of it you will need to put some time into the machine, it seems that the factory workers stop as soon as it is working, not when it is finely tuned to work at it's best. If you choose to import get a broker and have them handle everything. I can refer you to mine, she has been great. Otherwise for a domestically available machine Ray at Rabbit Laser gets consistently rave reviews, though you will spend quite a bit more money for the same thing. Probably worth it if you don't want to tweak things yourself.

I opted for a 1,400 x 900 machine. You'll notice my sig line is slightly different, it reflects the true working area. The honeycomb bed actually is 1,400 x 900 but the useable range of the laser is different. I wanted to be able to easily cut 24 x 48 sheets. 48" is 1,219mm so a 1,200 x 600 machine is just a bit too small. It is good to have the work area larger than the the largest pieces you intend to cut.

[Ron Gosnell]

Thank you Rich for the link to your comparison with epilog.

That answers that. Thank you

Now that of course leads to the next set of questions.

Did you use a standard lens like a 2" when you did the Aztec calendars or a smaller one like 1.5 "?
You seem to like the ZN6 tube, I have been reading about the EFR tubes also. Are there major differences between them or is it an apples oranges kind of thing?
I will for sure go with a long life tube 10,000 hours or so either way. I really value your opinion.

I'm not too leery about learning how to adjust the machine itself, coming from China. Infact it sounds like cleaning and maintenance on any of these is a routine job that one must learn and should learn. The one scary possibility would have it arrive not working at all. That would probably freak me out a lot. LOL

So I am looking at 80 watts, tube brand unknown yet.

It appears that corel draw is the software of choice among most people here. I see some machines run directly off corel draw and others use plugins. It also appears that one of the larger topics is in the type of controller. Do I need to look for a certain type of controller that operates from corel draw directly or do the plugins work. What should I definitely avoid. I know I need to stay away from key dongle type stuff correct ? What should I look for.

I am enjoying this so much and I hope that you are to. My confidence grows with every article that you point me to. I'm still very blind but learning through you.

Thank you again

Gozzie

[David Somers]

Afternoon Gozzie!

Dave Sheldrake and Rodney, long time participants here and both very knowledgeable on lasers, both feel he EFR is the better tube compared with RECI. RECI is not bad if I take their comments correctly, but the EFR is better. More stable, longer lived, better quality beam and more consistent, etc. Price should be about the same. Based on that I ordered an EFR when I ordered my laser from China. I have no track record yet to give you, but if you do some searches here you will find a bunch of threads comparing them. Hopefully Dave or Rodey will see this and can chime in at some point.

Where are you located BTW? Just a rough location is fine. That can help folks answer you better as well.

Dave

[Rich Harman]

Did you use a standard lens like a 2" when you did the Aztec calendars or a smaller one like 1.5 "?
That was a 50mm (2") lens. I normally use a 65mm lens.

You seem to like the ZN6 tube, I have been reading about the EFR tubes also. Are there major differences between them or is it an apples oranges kind of thing?
My 80W is a Reci W2. It has been great. The Z6 - it's okay.


I'm not too leery about learning how to adjust the machine itself, coming from China. Infact it sounds like cleaning and maintenance on any of these is a routine job that one must learn and should learn. The one scary possibility would have it arrive not working at all. That would probably freak me out a lot. LOL
It should arrive in working order but it may not be aligned all that well. Things like the laser head not being perfectly perpendicular to the table, the gantry not being at a perfect right angle to the rails it rides on - things like that.

It appears that corel draw is the software of choice among most people here. I see some machines run directly off corel draw and others use plugins.
For the Shenhui lasers, which use RDCam and the RDLC320 controller, the Corel plugin only launches RDCam with the Corel file already imported. What I do is use Corel then export as an AI v8.0 file. Then I import that into LaserWorks (RDCam). I sometimes don't bother with Corel, LaserWorks can be pretty good for making simple things quickly.