Blade+Chipper For Stanley #3 & #4?

[Derek Arita]

I just purchased a couple of vintage Stanley planes, as #3 and #4. I'd like to get a new blade and chip breaker for each so I can use them without putting more wear on the original sets. Does IBC make sets that will fit them or maybe another maker that offers thicker blades/chip breaker combos?

[Jim Belair]

Upgrade the blade/chipbreaker if you want to improve the performance a bit but I suggest not doing it to "save" the originals. #3's and #4's are plentiful and cheap, not collector's items. Just my opinion of course. Oh, and be prepared to file the mouth a bit on some combinations.

[Jim Koepke]

+1 on what Jim said.

Unless the blades are extremely old, there is no reason to save them.

If they are in good condition, there is really no need to replace them.

Unless you get over enthusiastic with the grinder, normal sharpening is not going to wear the blades a lot in your lifetime.

In the past it seems many plane users though a quick trip to the grinder every time they were going to use the plane was necessary.

If you insist on a replacement, there are many sources of great products including Hock, Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen.

jtk

[Derek Arita]

thanks...I'm new to planes and don't these things. I would like to replace the blade and chip breaker just to upgrade from the original. I feel like the newer, thicker blades are stronger and give less, so it's a bit easier to get nice surfaces. Do Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley offer combos for these size planes?
As far as filing the mouth, is that to accommodate the thicker blade/chipbreaker?

[Jim Koepke]

thanks...I'm new to planes and don't these things. I would like to replace the blade and chip breaker just to upgrade from the original. I feel like the newer, thicker blades are stronger and give less, so it's a bit easier to get nice surfaces. Do Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley offer combos for these size planes?
As far as filing the mouth, is that to accommodate the thicker blade/chipbreaker?

The newer blades may have more resilient metal. That will require more work when it is time to sharpen. It can be deceiving since the blade will tend to round instead of chip in some cases. When it finally gets too round to cut, there is more work to sharpening. Most of the time not being able to get a super thin shaving reminds me to get to the stones before there is a lot of work to do.

As far as the surface is concerned, it is impossible to tell which of my blades smoothed a surface whether it be an old Stanley, a new Hock or the $3 dollar bargain blade from Home Depot.

Finally, to be honest with you, in my opinion the original Stanley chip breakers are better when properly tuned than any of the new ones. The hump on the Stanley model directs the shaving better than the newer low profile chip breakers.

Of course, 308439

jtk

[Joe Bailey]

A timely post from a few days ago which is worthy of your attention ...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?228137-Replacement-Blade-Wont-Fit-My-8

[Chris Hachet]

I have 5 Stanley planes I sue regularly, I only have one upgraded chip breaker. Personally, I would use your plane awhile before changing anything. A couple of my planes have been used 30 plus years with the original chip breaker with zero issues.

[Derek Arita]

Guess I was hoping the newer combos would be less prone to chatter.

[steven c newman]

Then, you can also just buy a few OEM items from nhplaneparts. Eric usually has a bunch of Stanley plane parts.

Home Depot used to sell Buck Brothers plane irons in the 2" wide size. And a few of the block plane size. The $3 2" wide iron is actually fairly decent, once you sharpen it up.

Stanley still sells NEW blades and chipbreakers, too...

[Tom M King]

I use the old stock planes a lot. I mean, we do probably do several hundred sq. ft. every year, and sometimes more. When I see an old iron that has been honed away to the point that it's noticeably shortened, I tip my hat to its long gone user.

[Greg Wease]

I use replacement blades from Ron Hock or Lee Valley when the original is too badly pitted to achieve an acceptable edge. Originals are really pretty good blades. I haven't found a good reason to use replacement chip breakers and the combination of new blade/new chipper is more likely to require opening the mouth. IBC combos are significantly thicker than original and definitely require filing the mouth. And Lie-Nielsen no longer sells replacements for Stanley planes.

If chatter is the problem you are chasing, make sure the frog-to-base and frog-to-blade surfaces are uniform and the screws are tight.

[Chris Hachet]

Guess I was hoping the newer combos would be less prone to chatter.
I would take a shallower cut. I have the modern sweetheart number four and an ECE Primus number 4, both of which outperform my vintage Stanley planes by a pretty fair margin.

The hock chipbreaker helped my number five chatter less. However, we're it to be my money I would take the eighty bucks you would spend on a blade and cap Iron set and apply it to the $250 a low angle plane would cost from LV or LN.

[Chris Hachet]

I use the old stock planes a lot. I mean, we do probably do several hundred sq. ft. every year, and sometimes more. When I see an old iron that has been honed away to the point that it's noticeably shortened, I tip my hat to its long gone user.
My number five was heavily used and on its second blade when I got it...good inch gone from the second blade...

[Stew Denton]

Hi Derek,

As some of the folks above have alluded to, original blades are very available. You can by a good vintage Stanley blade on Ebay for about $20 to $25 bid price, shipping extra, and if wait a while to get a good buy, in fact at times you can buy a good combination of the iron, chip breaker and bolt that holds the two together for that $25, again shipping extra.
Stew

[steven c newman]

Simple cure to get rid of Chatter
1: Take the steel ruler out of your combo square
2: barely loosen the two frog bolts
3: lay the ruler along the face of the frog, flat.
4: the face of the frog and that small "ramp" down by the opening of the mouth should be coplanar. Ruler should sit flat all the wat through, no gaps
5: adjust the frog to correct any gaps, one bolt at a time. Tighten each when it is coplanar
Replace all parts, listen, or feel for any chatter, doubt if you will find any.

If the frog had slid forward ( close that mouth!) then the iron will vibrate, because it is sticking out in mid air. No support right behind where the action is. That small ramp IS the support for the iron.

One more thing. IF the frog had been slid back for some reason, the iron will be on the ramp, but the pressure on top of the iron/chipbreaker will make the iron bend. That leads to the cutting edge being lifted away from the wood. Just as bad as chatter.
The reason it is as worse as chatter? With the edge bent up, away from the wood, it forces you to take a deeper cut to get the edge into the wood, for a few passes. It also makes the iron seem dulled, it isn't, just rubbing on the bevel instead of the edge.

[Jim Koepke]

Guess I was hoping the newer combos would be less prone to chatter.

Steven makes some good points toward eliminating chatter.

Do you have a caliper to measure the thickness of shavings when you notice chatter?

For thick surface removal my shavings are often thick enough, ~0.012", to have break marks on the shaving yet leave the wood smooth as long as the grain is running good.

If your chip breaker has too much bend it can bow the blade and lift off of the frog. This could be a source of chatter.

It may also help to know what date/type your planes are.

jtk

[Ron Hock]

Frogs are adjustable so you can set the mouth to suit the planing task at hand. The "heel" of the bevel rests on the frog, not the sole: http://www.hocktools.com/temp/Frog1.jpg By moving the frog to be co-planar with the sole you lose the ability to take advantage of the frog's range of motion.

To minimize chatter:
1. Remove the frog and clean out the crud that always seems to end up under there, then scrap off the crud and rust from all mating surfaces so there is good metal-to-metal contact.
2. Clean the face of the frog so the blade meets it solidly.
3. Sharpen the blade. This is probably the most important single anti-chatter check-off.
4. Consider a heavier breaker. On bevel-down planes, the bevel cantilevers out from the frog. Adding a stiffer breaker adds rigidity right down at the cutting edge by pre-loading it thus reducing vibration.

One other point. Increasing the thickness of a plane iron does little, if anything, to improve the tool's performance. And with the Stanley-style planes, too much additional thickness will prevent the adjuster lever from engaging the frog properly, impeding its ability to adjust the depth of cut (see photo in the link above). There are ways to modify a breaker to make a thicker blade work but, IMO, they're clever solutions to a problem that doesn't exist (and usually require more filing of the sole than I'm comfortable with).

Good luck, Derek. I know you'll enjoy your new/old Stanleys. They're great tools!

[Derek Arita]

Frogs are adjustable so you can set the mouth to suit the planing task at hand. The "heel" of the bevel rests on the frog, not the sole: http://www.hocktools.com/temp/Frog1.jpg By moving the frog to be co-planar with the sole you lose the ability to take advantage of the frog's range of motion.

To minimize chatter:
1. Remove the frog and clean out the crud that always seems to end up under there, then scrap off the crud and rust from all mating surfaces so there is good metal-to-metal contact.
2. Clean the face of the frog so the blade meets it solidly.
3. Sharpen the blade. This is probably the most important single anti-chatter check-off.
4. Consider a heavier breaker. On bevel-down planes, the bevel cantilevers out from the frog. Adding a stiffer breaker adds rigidity right down at the cutting edge by pre-loading it thus reducing vibration.

One other point. Increasing the thickness of a plane iron does little, if anything, to improve the tool's performance. And with the Stanley-style planes, too much additional thickness will prevent the adjuster lever from engaging the frog properly, impeding its ability to adjust the depth of cut (see photo in the link above). There are ways to modify a breaker to make a thicker blade work but, IMO, they're clever solutions to a problem that doesn't exist (and usually require more filing of the sole than I'm comfortable with).

Good luck, Derek. I know you'll enjoy your new/old Stanleys. They're great tools!
Ron, thanks so much for the reply. That pic really helps. The chatter I get always happens at the very beginning of the cut...maybe in the first 1/2". Does that clue you in on what I'm doing wrong?

[Tom Vanzant]

Derek, at the start of a planing cut, ALL of the downward pressure should be at the toe/front knob of the plane. There should be no downward pressure on the tote/tail of the plane, just forward motion. With planes, a sharp iron makes everything go better.