Looking for help in ways to improve my work

[Joe Tilson]

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These are pic's of a project for the LOML. This is my first attempt at hand saw dove tails. Let me know how I might improve. The wood is 100 year old pine form a 1920's house, with some mixed in with pine from a 1936 church. I am pretty sure it is heart pine, but if it isn't, it's still hard as a bullet.
Thanks,
Joe

[Chris Hachet]

It looks to me like the center of the side is bowing outward, which is why the center dovetails don't fit so well. Side could be flattened with a hand plane, bringing everything true.

At least that would be my approach.

[Jim Koepke]

My first guess is you chopped out the waste. There is nothing wrong with chopping the waste, it is just a bit tricky, especially with softwoods like pine. Even if it has had a century of hardening history.

Your scribed lines look a little undercut. If you chop out the waste, chop away from the line and then pare to the line. Recently my skill with a fret saw has improved enough to saw then pare.

The fit between the pins and tails looks pretty good in all but one or two places. It doesn't matter whether you start with pins or tails as long as what is cut first is square where it needs to be. For me, this means tails first. Since my problem is getting out of square when rip cutting the tails at an angle. This allows the tails to be checked and corrected for square before cutting the pins. Then sawing straight down at an angle isn't as much of a challenge for me. Many find it to work better the other way around.

Like so many things, time and patience become your teacher.

Sometimes making a few quick practice joints one after the other can help to locate areas needing improvement. Use some inexpensive wood and make some single or two tailed joints. When it is assembled, cut it off near the joint. Number them and set them aside. After a few, look at them and see if they have some of the same problem spots. This may be able to help you with sawing to the line or not getting too close to the base line when chopping with a mallet.

If what Chris noticed is correct, it is darn nigh impossible to get dovetails to go together and look good without square, flat stock.

There is also cutting the pins & tails a little proud and planing to level. This helps some.

Not sure of your orientation, my choice is to put the tails on the vertical pieces. Others may choose to do it with pins on the vertical.

jtk

[Joe Tilson]

Chris,
You are correct they were flat and in line until the humidity went from 20% to 95%. What about clamping into place?
Jim,
I chose to put the tails on the vertical for, what I perceive to be stronger locking when I put the shelves in. Maybe not!
I have done some butterfly's before, while helping to build shed's, with pretty good success. I figured I was biting off more than I needed to.
That comes with the learning process as well.
Thanks,
Joe

[Jim Koepke]

I chose to put the tails on the vertical for, what I perceive to be stronger locking when I put the shelves in. Maybe not!

If the shelves sit on the floor or a stand it likely won't matter. My fear when it is mounted on a wall is the weight on the bottom shelf might make it loosen and fall off.

jtk

[Darrell LaRue]

Joe

The one thing I can see that might make a difference is to provide better support closer to the work when cutting. That is, don't have the boards sticking up so much above the bench or the vise. I found that if the workpiece was held solidly and supported right up to where I was cutting (within an inch of the base line) the easier and more accurately I could cut. Yours is sticking up a long ways. That may be necessary due to the length of the stock, but you could always back up the work piece with something like a box or a brace clamped to the bench.

Apart from that, you did good for your first dovetails.

Darrell

[Joe Tilson]

Darrell,
Thank you. I will have to fix a way to work a little higher due to back problems.
Hey, It might be time for that Moxon vise. I will have to see what the frugal wife has to say.

Jim,
This will be a stand alone unit. Thanks for the enlightenment. I will learn, as we all have to.

[Jim Koepke]

Apart from that, you did good for your first dovetails.

Yes, for a first attempt at hand cut dovetails these are pretty good. Some of my early attempts required dowelling to keep them from falling apart or rattling.

jtk

[Chris Hachet]

Chris,
You are correct they were flat and in line until the humidity went from 20% to 95%. What about clamping into place?
Jim,
I chose to put the tails on the vertical for, what I perceive to be stronger locking when I put the shelves in. Maybe not!
I have done some butterfly's before, while helping to build shed's, with pretty good success. I figured I was biting off more than I needed to.
That comes with the learning process as well.
Thanks,
Joe

If you look at pic 3 of five I think you may need to do a slight bit of paring to get a perfect fit. Were it my project, I would flatten as needed with a #6 or #7, and then finish the boards with seal coat. Seal coat (thinned shellac) will keep glue from penetrating or discoloring of the finished surface. I would then use a two part epoxy for the glue up, as epoxy will fill any small gaps with no loss of strength.

You should be able to clamp that flat using cauls. A piece of wood on top and on bottom of the board planed slightly convex and the board should be held flat while everything dries. Use wax paper to keep the cauls from marring the finished product or being glued in place.

You probably could then tune everything up with a smooth plane taking very shallow cuts and have very acceptable looking dovetails in my opinion.

[Chris Hachet]

Darrell,
Thank you. I will have to fix a way to work a little higher due to back problems.
Hey, It might be time for that Moxon vise. I will have to see what the frugal wife has to say.

Jim,
This will be a stand alone unit. Thanks for the enlightenment. I will learn, as we all have to.

A simple Moxon vise can be built with pipe clamps and Borg/Scrap lumber for less than twenty bucks. While I love Benchcraftd hardware, not everything needs to be top drawer.

[Chris Hachet]

Yes, for a first attempt at hand cut dovetails these are pretty good. Some of my early attempts required dowelling to keep them from falling apart or rattling.

jtk

For a first attempt they are fantastic!

[Robert Norman]

I keep some 4x6 (3 2x4s) under the bench to give it a height boost when needed. Works great to raise work up for sawing or mortise chopping.

[Jim Matthews]

First try at dovetails, and you don't have any
dutchmen, fill wedges or 'character' flaws?

You related to Frank Klausz, by any chance?

Just glue up, you've probably got a good fit, already.
When I build like this, I try to get the same board
running all the way around, so all sides move together.

Getting laminated boards like this to 'behave' is beyond me.

[Chuck Hart]

Joe I made a moxon vise for the same reason you have, my back. My work now sits about 6 inches higher and easier to work with. I just finished a set of dovetails and if they looked like yours I wouldn't be starting over tomorrow. With some planing yours look great. I would not have the courage to show mine.

[george wilson]

To improve your work,it is not good to try using hard pine,fir,or other "soft woods" that have very hard grains interspersed with soft in between. Too easy for the saw or especially the chisel to wander off. And,it's hard to scribe decently. Not a judgement on your dovetails,but just woods to avoid for that purpose.

Another way to improve your work: Work a lot!:)

[Joe Tilson]

Thanks a lot fellows, you are very encouraging.
Jim M.,
I am not related to Frank Klausz, but my grand mother was a Clouse.
I have decided to follow Jim K's advise and rotate my unit to get the tails in the proper position.
Chuck,
I raise my bench the same way. Just didn't do it this time.
Don't be afraid to show your work. It's probably not that bad at all.
George,
You are so right. Lesson learned.
Again, Thanks for the help and encouragement
Joe

[ken hatch]

Joe,

Just a question about the second photo....Were you sawing when it was taken? If you were, you may be able to quickly improve your saw cuts with small changes in stance and presentation of the saw. You appear to have a very closed and cramped stance with your right arm coming across your body instead of being able to move freely. I also agree with, I believe it was Jim, asking about if you chopped the waste. It appears you may have "pushed the scribe line in slightly and in the 3rd. photo it looks as if you left a little crud in the corners of the middle pins.

It's hard to tell looking at photos. I agree with the others, for a first set of dovetails these are pretty good, it wouldn't take much to make your next set very good.

ken

[Joe Tilson]

Ken,
Sorry for the late response. Had to drive up to Tn to help take care of a situation with our mom.
You are so correct in your observation, I did everything you mentioned. Still haven't gotten everything cleaned up. I'll get back to it soon. Made several mistakes and realize it will takes time to learn. Patients is not one of my virtues except when it comes to woodworking. I do love it so! My brother just retired, and we can now get together and share our experiences. He lives in Huntsville, AL though. We are both on the same phone service so talking is free. That helps a lot. Hope you all have a blessed day,
Joe

[ken hatch]

Joe,

As I expect you know a little coaching can help, the best being one on one but video and books are good as well. Bottom line though nothing is better than paying attention to what went well, what didn't and correcting the less than good and doing it again. BTW, I instruct adults in another field for a living and one thing is driven home every day, there is no "right" way some ways are better than others but with adults sometimes you have to live with a less good and just help them make it better. Directed practice and repetition will almost always make it better.

ken

[Prashun Patel]

Like a lot of new dovetailers (myself counted) we tend to look for a quick fix. The only fix I've found and seen is practice. You're already practically there. Once glued and planed flush, I bet they look fairly perfect.

I'll offer two suggestions that helped me:

1) Invest in some kind of better vise system for holding your work; it'll make it much easier ergonomically.
2) If you get tired of the tedium of chopping or sawing waste manually, then consider using a pin/trim router with a 1/4 spiral bit to remove most of the pin waste. It's very easy to learn and master, and leaves some enjoyable, minimal paring and fitting work so that you'll have all the benefits and enjoyment of hand-made dovetails without the boring pain.

[Jim Koepke]

Bottom line though nothing is better than paying attention to what went well, what didn't and correcting the less than good and doing it again.

Not sure if it was Roy Underhill or Chris Schwarz who said to pay attention to every saw cut and every chisel chop and chisel paring. Know where the tool is going and why.

That helped to improve my dovetails.

There are a lot of little details that come together to make good looking dovetails. With time they become a part of the "habits" of making dovetails.

jtk