Any alums of Shannon Rogers' online hand tool course?

[Howard Skillington]

I worked wood for many years with noisy, dangerous, whirring machines, until I attended WIA last fall and, to my surprise, caught the hand tool bug. I have most of what I need to do the job without electricity now, and would like to develop hand tool skills in a structured way.
I have watched videos by both Rob Cosman and Shannon Rogers (the "Renaissance Woodworker") online. Both are likeable enough and both have remarkable skills with hand tools, but their approach to their classes seems quite different.
Have any of you Neanders taken either? If so, your testimonials would be appreciated, before I commit to one or the other.

[Reinis Kanders]

I do not know about "Renaissance Woodworker", but his free videos are pretty good.
I tried Cosman and he was good, but his online course is not edited, so you see him do things almost real time, which can be nice, but then you would not have any time left to do actual woodworking.
I also tried Paul Sellers and he edits his videos, but editing is just about right for my tastes, still too much fluff, but he also shows you many ways to do the same thing and mentions nuances. Try some of his free videos, he is a good teacher with a style that keeps my attention, and has a good variety for an intermediate beginner such as me, even some axe work and stools, benches with spindles, etc.

[Tony Wilkins]

Don't know if you could call me an alumni because I haven't done all the projects but I have Shannon's first semester and think it's a great resource. I also enjoy Paul Sellers' paid videos. I think either would be a good launching point. I did the free thirty days of Cosman's but his were just too drawn out. Tom Fidgen also has a new paid content channel and it's ok but I prefer the first two I mentioned.

[Howard Skillington]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate your responses, and welcome any others.
I've been watching Cosman on Woodcraft's free 90 day membership deal, and agree that the lack of editing is a deal breaker. One well produced video on flattening a board would be ideal; watching him flatten every new board for a project in real time gets old pretty fast.
Shannon seems more focused on teaching a sequence of skills in a focused way.
I will certainly check out Sellers and Fidgen, as well.

[Hilton Ralphs]

If you want to save money then watch the Paul Sellers' videos as he shows what can be achieved with a minimal tool set. He's not fixated on only using hand tools though as his band saw is often clearly in shot and he's not afraid to use it.

He does sometimes appear grumpy especially towards new gadgets but take the good and ignore the bad.

Shannon tends to waffle on a bit more than I'd like. I often find myself fast forwarding but he's a great teacher and doesn't appear to favour any particular brand of tools in terms of potential sponsorship.

Rob has that annoying habit of always punting his own line of tools but it's his prerogative I suppose (as Britney would say). He does pitch the technical skill at a higher level (at least from what I've seen on his DVDs).

All three are likeable, have dark hair and are obviously passionate about their work and the need to pass on the knowledge. You won't waste your money on any of them.

[Ralph Boumenot]

Tom Fidgen has started an online video woodworking class. He uses no machines at all. Other than these 4, I'm not aware of anyone else offering handtool woodworking classes.

[John Schtrumpf]

In the beginning I was lost. But luckily one of the first tools I bought was a Wood River plane, and I got a free month of Rob Cosman. For that month all I did was watch every minute of Rob's hall table build. As the videos are basically uncut, I got to watch Rob build it in real time and in it's entirety. This gave me a context on working with hand tools. The repetition, what the basic tools are and where they are used. From that starting point, I have watched the others (Paul Sellers, Shannon / renaissance woodworker, Logan cabinet shoppe, Tom Fidgen, etc), for a particular skill, technique or project.

Whether that was a good approach or not, I don't know, it worked for me. I could definitely see doing something like taking Shannon's course, to learn the basics.

[Frederick Skelly]

I subscribed to Cosman for a while. Im the odd man out here, but I LIKED the unedited video - he showed me the whole tedious process of doing whatever it was and I feel he was a good teacher.

I think youll enjoy hand tools Howard. You may even decide to go "hybrid" and use machines for heavy work and hand tools for more finess work. But watch out - its a slippery slope!

Enjoy!
Fred

[Stewie Simpson]

I think its fair to say most of the well known names that promote the use of hand tools still rely on tailed machinery to work their stock to size; its just not seen within their limited presentations. In a thread by Rob Lee on another forum about 3-4 months ago. Rob recalled phoning up Chris Schwartz, but was then put on hold while Chris hurriedly finishes off some trim work with a nail gun before the glue had time to harden.

I personally have no issues with a mix of both methodologies.

Stewie;

[Hilton Ralphs]

I think Shannon actually sold off his jointer because his viewers complained. I may be wrong but I still don't understand why so many woodworkers get their pink panties in a knot over this 'hand tool only' thing.

I promise you that there are no brownie points for you if you spend the entire Saturday afternoon ripping boards by hand when a table saw would do this in seconds leaving you the rest of the weekend to make use of other hand tools that are actually enjoyable to use.

[Daniel Rode]

When I started using hand tools, I knew almost nothing and didn't know anyone who did. Watching Rob was like being in the shop with him as he built the projects. The repetition was good for me and I learned a lot. The projects progress slowly, but at the time, it really helped. As I learned more, the slow pace began to become more and more of a problem. I'd like to move on to Rob's advanced class, but none exists. I also learned a lot from videos by Paul Sellers, Chris Schwarz, Roy Underhill (PBS) and a handful of others.

My advice, is to watch as many different videos as possible and ask questions here.


I subscribed to Cosman for a while. Im the odd man out here, but I LIKED the unedited video - he showed me the whole tedious process of doing whatever it was and I feel he was a good teacher.

I think youll enjoy hand tools Howard. You may even decide to go "hybrid" and use machines for heavy work and hand tools for more finess work. But watch out - its a slippery slope!

Enjoy!
Fred

[Chris Hachet]

Tom Fidgen has started an online video woodworking class. He uses no machines at all. Other than these 4, I'm not aware of anyone else offering handtool woodworking classes.


My vote would be for Fidgen. Hand tool woodworking si more of a mindset than a particular skill set, and Fidgeon does the best to communicate this mindset IMHO.

Most of the rest of what you are learning through these video series can be learned easily from trial and error.

I am also not sure why these paid memberships are so expensive. If you have a 1000 members paying $25 each, that's $25,000 a month income. Does not cost 25 grand to amke that video, not anywhere near.

[Daniel Rode]

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against Tom Fidgen, but his "mindset" leans toward hipster / neo-hippie and that's not really for me. Seller's "lifestyle woodworking" is a bit utopian as well but it's a more familiar daydream. Rob Cosman's, blue collar, work-a-day approach is what I find most appealing. He seems practical and decent. I'd probably enjoy working with him.

That said, I disagree with the mindset premise entirely. This is most definitely a particular skill set independent of mindset or lifestyle. I doubt many (any) would become highly skilled hand tool woodworkers by trial and error. It took many generations to develop and hand down these skills. We stand on the shoulders of giants.

[Chris Hachet]

I think its fair to say most of the well known names that promote the use of hand tools still rely on tailed machinery to work their stock to size; its just not seen within their limited presentations. In a thread by Rob Lee on another forum about 3-4 months ago. Rob recalled phoning up Chris Schwartz, but was then put on hold while Chris hurriedly finishes off some trim work with a nail gun before the glue had time to harden.

I personally have no issues with a mix of both methodologies.

Stewie;

It makes a lot of sense to use both IMHO.

[Eric Schatz]

I've got through just about all of these people. However, Rob Cosman has been the only one that I've done the paid portion on. Anybody with an issue about him saying how great his dovetail saw is (he only might spend 45 seconds on that) should not be bothered with opinions in general. Rob really has a great site with a forum that he is constantly on answering questions. He shows every bit of the process, his mistakes and how he fixes those. Get the 1 month trial and check it out. he also has a powered side of the site that shows how to make things that are powered. Even the powered videos end up being very hybrid though.

I think Cosman is a great teacher/woodworker. Isn't that what you're really looking for?

[Rick Thompson34]

So a business owner is obligated to sell his product at cost and not a penny more? What would you consider to be a fair monthly profit? I doubt any of these guys are getting rich selling memberships, so I'm not sure what you're getting at with that type of comment.


My vote would be for Fidgen. Hand tool woodworking si more of a mindset than a particular skill set, and Fidgeon does the best to communicate this mindset IMHO.

Most of the rest of what you are learning through these video series can be learned easily from trial and error.

I am also not sure why these paid memberships are so expensive. If you have a 1000 members paying $25 each, that's $25,000 a month income. Does not cost 25 grand to amke that video, not anywhere near.

[Mike Cherry]

I am a paid member of Shannon's HandTool School ( Semester 1 & 2). I am still working my way through the projects, but as a complete beginner his videos have been very helpful. That said, I've watched my fair share of Paul Seller. Enough so, that when my kids see him on tv they go " Oh God,not Paul again!"

[jamie shard]

Probably obvious, but I'll say it: the David Charlesworth videos are very good, too. I would say they are more advanced than some and might be harder to appreciate, unless the person is already has a detailed oriented "wood machinist" mentality... hmm "wood machinist" is a wierd expression to use for hand tool work, but DC's work habits remind me of a really precise metal machinist. Always talking about a thousandth off of here, a couple of thou off of there... :)

[Simon MacGowen]

Based on their free videos (Rob's was complimentary), I would rank them as:

Paul Sellers -- sometimes long-winded and sometimes off the topic, but he is also the oldest and so that's forgiven. His videos are free of annoying background music...what a relief. He uses economical or shop made tools and free of advertising.
Tom Fidgen and Rob Cosman (tie) -- I don't like the background music of Tom's at all; I know Tom is a musician but why does he think his music is what others like? (same complaint about Chris Schwarz's vids and Chris is arguably the first one who started the use of bad soundtrack). Rob's among the best if he edits out the tedious and repetitive garbage (look at his three-minute dovetails vid...among the best).
Shannon -- I can't stand his fillers...please show, don't tell. He can cut half the length of his episodes and still nothing valuable would be lost. (If you have watched Charles Neil's free videos, you know what I mean.)

None of the above or any online presenters, however, can match the clarity and simplicity in delivery of Norm Abram (NY Workshop). Everything was to the point and Norm wasted no words. After all he had only 30 minutes or less each time. Some Fine Woodworking online videos are close to Norm's -- no fillers.

Regardless of the teacher, sooner or later, you will get bored because after the basic set of techniques or skills is developed, there is little to keep on watching. The projects done are the teacher's choices, not yours. I don't want to build a wall clock but that is what is being presented. What do I do? Skip?

I know taking a class in person may not be possible for you...but that is the most effective way to learn hand skills. Being in a class also means there is discipline, apart from guidance. The truth is why waste so many hours in front of the computer screen and then try to duplicate the success of the teacher -- alone by yourself in your own shop.

Simon

[Frederick Skelly]

I am also not sure why these paid memberships are so expensive. If you have a 1000 members paying $25 each, that's $25,000 a month income. Does not cost 25 grand to amke that video, not anywhere near.

Id guess it's because $25 is what the market will bear. Personally, it never mattered to me if he was making a ton of money there (though I doubt he is). I mean, that's capitalism - find a nitch and charge what you can for a good product. Cosman charged what I felt was a fair price and actively engaged in his user forum to answer questions. Several times he and I swapped personal emails answering questions. I feel like I got good value, but maybe someone else feels differently. But I havent seen too many of these guys with quality, regular "shows" charge a lot less than $25.

Fred

[Howard Skillington]

Lots of helpful input here, thanks. To me a master of hand tools is a bit like a musician who has mastered an instrument. Yes, some talented people can pick up a guitar and teach themselves, but who wouldn't benefit from having a great teacher?

I caught the hand tool bug at last fall's WIA when a Lee Valley guy showed me that you can dial in a mortise with a router plane in less time than it takes to set up a bit in a router table.
But, no - I don't think I'll be hauling my Laguna bandsaw out to the curb any time soon.

[Bryan Robinson]

I am a member of Shannon's Hand Tools School and I highly recommend it. It is a good approach to learning to use hand tools.

[Derrell W Sloan]

Another vote for Paul Sellers. I've been a member of his woodworking master classes for a few years and it's been the best woodworking $ I've spent.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Slightly off-topic but those who have tried Rob Cosmon online tutorials, I have a question for you.

Do you have access to past videos or only those that are current and in the future?

Ta.

[Eric Schatz]

Slightly off-topic but those who have tried Rob Cosmon online tutorials, I have a question for you.

Do you have access to past videos or only those that are current and in the future?

Ta.

I'm pretty sure you have access to all of his videos. He talks about what the future builds will be also. You can't download them legally though.

[Daniel Rode]

It's been a few months since I've been a paying member but at that time, all of the previous videos were available. I spent the first couple months watching nothing but past videos.

Slightly off-topic but those who have tried Rob Cosmon online tutorials, I have a question for you.

Do you have access to past videos or only those that are current and in the future?

Ta.

[Tony Wilkins]

Ditto and plus 1


It's been a few months since I've been a paying member but at that time, all of the previous videos were available. I spent the first couple months watching nothing but past videos.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I'm pretty sure you have access to all of his videos.
Thanks Eric.


I spent the first couple months watching nothing but past videos.
Yeah, that's what I intend to do. Just wanted to confirm I don't have to watch in real time as the time zone factor is against me.

[Stewie Simpson]

Sharpening a hand saw is definitely not one of Shannon's strengths. :o

http://www.renaissancewoodworker.com/sharpening-a-rip-saw/