Hammer B3 information

[Susumu Mori]

Hi all,

I'm thinking about buying a B3 Winner and wondering if I can get some information from the users of B3 or K3 in this forum;

1) What is the footprint of B3 Winner? I can find some numbers from their catalog but they don't look right. For example, from the blade to the right side (the right end of the rip fence bar) is listed 61 inch while there is only 31 inch of rip capacity.

2) The Comfort package comes with a 79-inch slider and an outrigger with deep discount. I do mostly solid wood and have occasions to need a straight line rip. So, a long slider would be good but I understand that there is a straight line jig by Hammer that allows to rip any length. I'm worried the extra space the slider wood take. I do sometimes sheet goods and the capability to process 5'x5' ply would be great but I can do it with my Festool track saw if needed. How do you think about the extra-length slider and outrigger? would it worth the space it occupies?

Any information and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

[ian maybury]

I run a K3 with an 8ft slider, and have found it hugely useful to break down sheets of ply - despite having a Festool track saw too. The jig using the plastic T strip is to my mind not much use. Like yourself i thought it might be an option, but the fit in the slot in the slider is pretty sloppy. The classic advice is that nobody (unless they have no use for it) regrets buying a longer slider. Be careful, in that the specified lengths are the actual length of the slider and not the practical capacity - you likely need a few inches extra to fit in a clamp.

My space is very tight too - the outrigger takes up a lot of space, especially if you leave room for it's use at full extension. It might be best to get the drawing from Felder as my saw is a UK spec Perform with the long cabinet which i think is not sold in the US any more.

One to bear in mind if you get a long slider and outrigger is that you don't necessaarily have to run the slider through it's full travel, or the outrigger fully extended all the time. A side benfit of the long slider is that you can leave a short mitre fence set up on one end, and the outrigger on the other...

[Susumu Mori]

Thanks Ian.
I see, the jig is indeed an inferior alternative to a real slider. That makes sense.
My sense is that the longer slide does take a considerable amount of a stroke space (4 m for a 2 m slider vs 2.4 m for a 1.2 m slider), but at the stationary position where it is in most of the time, it won't be too much space-occupying?

As for the outrigger, I initially thought it is not that much of use unless I do a lot of sheet goods, but it seems to have many advantages such as a crosscut fence in the fore position. How do you like the outrigger?

[Rich Riddle]

Hopefully Rod will see this thread and reply as he has the saw. I have the K3 Winner. The size of the footprint depends upon the size you choose. What specific saw are you contemplating?

[Paul Cahill]

[portable QUOTE=ian maybury;2385065]I run a K3 with an 8ft slider, and have found it hugely useful to break down sheets of ply - despite having a Festool track saw too...[/QUOTE]

Hi Ian: I know you are not overly thrilled with your slider being shorter than you originally wanted, and granted I don't have a slider at all, but I do have a track saw with a long rail and it is wonderful! Ultimately it all depends on what you want and what you want to pay for, but my process is:
- buy sheet goods, either near home or in Atlanta (lower cost, better selection);
- when arrive home, setup portable sawing station with track saw, vacuum etc., and breakdown sheets as I remove them from vehicle, according to cut plans (takes a while to plan, but it's a hobby??);
- carry everything to basement, now that it is a weight that I can carry without hurting my back;
- create masterpiece (sort of)!

Paul

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Rich,

You are right. Forgot to mention the dimension. The rip capacity is listed as 31 inch and 49 inch is optional. The slider is 49 or 79.

Yes, I wonder if Rod could chime in here.

[Rich Riddle]

Hi Rich,

You are right. Forgot to mention the dimension. The rip capacity is listed as 31 inch and 49 inch is optional. The slider is 49 or 79.

Yes, I wonder if Rod could chime in here.

So are you looking at the 31 or 49 inch model? and are you looking at the 49 or 79 inch slider attachment. I own the 48" x 48". The slider profile takes twice the length of the slider since it can move either all the way forward or back, but that's only a factor when using it, not storing it. I have mine on wheels and the 48" x 48" doesn't take all that much room. I remove the attachment that goes on the slider when it's stored. That takes about two minutes each time it's used.

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[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, I'm teaching a course at present, will reply tonight.

Here's the drawing I made for my B3 Winner.

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Regards, Rod.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Rich,

What is the actual width of your saw (right-left in your pic)?
That is without the crosscut fence.

[Susumu Mori]

Thanks Rod, this is exactly what I needed!
I'll go back to my basement and see how it fits.

[Susumu Mori]

By the way, how important is the outrigger for you?
Is it something you consider "must", "preferable", or "can live without it"?

[ian maybury]

Hi Paul. It turned out that the slightly short slider was less of an issue than it might have been - basically because it's possible to run with an adapted clamp that cantilevers/hangs out of the end of the slider. My feeling is just that it's potentially misleading when the the number is an actual dimension as opposed to the (comfortable) capacity.

There are various photos about of people's arrangements of these clamps - often an F or a quick clamp standing vertically on/welded to a steel strip that fits in the T slot.

The other helpful aspect of the situation is that for most projects i find myself cutting 8x4s across the shorter dimension - so the missing length is rarely at issue. To Susumu - my take on use of the outrigger is that even on this (cross cutting full sheets) i don't always use it - certainly not at full extension. I have a set of parallel bars (mine are DIY but Brian on the FOG/Felder owners site does a very nice set: http://www.lambtoolworks.com/products.html ) that project about 1200mm from the T slot in the side of the slider, and these are often sufficient to support a panel. They have turned out to be a very handy item to have about even if only used for this purpose. Rod may see it differently, but I guess it's really only when you need the stops on the outrigger the full extension has be used.

To qualify the comment on the T strip. It's not a precision item, but probably is just intended for use in getting long pieces cut up - with the finished edge/cut probably tidied up by other means. The practical difficulty is that a close fitting long strip would probably end up jamming in the T slot...

[Jim Andrew]

I have the K3 with the 79" slider. I like the outrigger for big pieces, for smaller pieces I use the small crosscut fence. For straight line ripping the slider is wonderful. I have the strips they sell for longer rips, but have not used them. You have to fasten them to the workpiece, so the piece can slide on top of the slider. The biggest improvement I could see for this saw is if you could move the latch on the slider even with the fixed undercarriage for ripping with the fence. The slider extends beyond the fixed undercarriage about 7", and keeps you that much farther from the blade when you rip using the rip fence.

[James Bilsky]

Hello

I have the K3 48x48 would recommend that you get the rip fence fine adjuster & mobility kit if you purchase.
jim

[Rod Sheridan]

[QUOTE=Susumu Mori;2385162]By the way, how important is the outrigger for you?
Is it something you consider "must", "preferable", or "can live without it"?[/QUOTE

When I purchased my B3 Winner I didn't purchase the outrigger.

A year or two later I purchased it and installed it.

I mostly make solid wood furniture however when processing panels (even hardwood) I use the outrigger. Acouple of years ago my daughter was making herself a dining room table. She crosscut the table herself, even though she needed help lifting it onto the saw. Sure beats having an accident with a crosscut sled.

I also use the outrigger when breaking down rougn lumber if it is long or heavy.

You can add any accessory as you wish, things that are options can only be factory installed.

I have

- tilt away bracket for feeder,
- dado
- scoring saw
- fine adjust rip fence
- full table to the right of the cast iron table
- outrigger with precision mitre index
- tenon hood and table
- Euro curve guard for shaper
- 1 1/4" and 30mm spindle
- mobility kit (home made)
- edging shoe
- hold down clamp
Regards, Rod

[Kent A Bathurst]

Rod - If I may pry - how much $$$ is invested in that list?

[Ed Weiser]

I have had a B3 Comfort with the 78" slider for a couple of years. While I do few cabinets (and therefore sheet goods) I don't regret the purchase at all. I also purchased Airtight pneumatic hold down clamps from Mac Campshure which are worth every penny. They keep your hands COMPLETELY away from the blade and give you better cuts. Highly recommended. While the Hammer is lighter duty than the Felder line, the B3 (or K3) is at least as beefy as any non-slider I have seen or worked with. You will not regret the purchase.
Also, check out the Felder catalog on line. On the pages for the Hammer saws the footprint and space required for the function of the slider appears.

[Chris Parks]

I have a K3 without the outrigger. I added a Wixey DRO to the rip fence which combined with the fine fence adjuster is awesome, get it close and wind the fine adjuster, no tapping or hitting. I then saw the Fritz and Franz video and wanted to use the method so I bought all the parts to move the cross cut fence to the front of the slider and that is the best thing I ever did and I can now reach the on/off switch without crawling under the table. I left the stops etc for the rear fence position in place in case I needed to put it there for some reason. Has anyone come up with an idea to place a switch on the end of the table?

[Rod Sheridan]

I have a K3 without the outrigger. I added a Wixey DRO to the rip fence which combined with the fine fence adjuster is awesome, get it close and wind the fine adjuster, no tapping or hitting. I then saw the Fritz and Franz video and wanted to use the method so I bought all the parts to move the cross cut fence to the front of the slider and that is the best thing I ever did and I can now reach the on/off switch without crawling under the table. I left the stops etc for the rear fence position in place in case I needed to put it there for some reason. Has anyone come up with an idea to place a switch on the end of the table?

Hi Chris, I'm in the process of added a start button in a plastic enclosure so I can access it when using the shaper. or stick it on the slider.

Obviously it has a cord that connects to the saw cabinet.................Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Kent, it's not prying at all.

I am away on business so I don't know if I can respond until the weekend..........Rod.

[David Kumm]

308367308368 Most of the parts can be found at ebay or Mcmaster Carr. Coiled cord and in my case a fitting so the cord can be unplugged if the switch needs to be worked on. I wouldn't bother with that and just hard wire it if doing it over. I did mill a piece of 2" square AL to hang on the slider and lock with a threaded knob so it can be moved. Starts both the main blade and scorer. If they operate separately you would want a three button control station. Dave

[Fedde Vennix]

I have a K3 without the outrigger. I added a Wixey DRO to the rip fence which combined with the fine fence adjuster is awesome, get it close and wind the fine adjuster, no tapping or hitting. I then saw the Fritz and Franz video and wanted to use the method so I bought all the parts to move the cross cut fence to the front of the slider and that is the best thing I ever did and I can now reach the on/off switch without crawling under the table. I left the stops etc for the rear fence position in place in case I needed to put it there for some reason. Has anyone come up with an idea to place a switch on the end of the table?

Hello there Chris,
sorry for digging this old thread up and by a not seen here before member ...
But my K3 will arrive next month (all this reading about this slider is costing me quite a bit :-)
and it will come without the outrigger, I don think I will need it that much and my space is not that big. So now I read you placed the cross cut fence at the other end, do you have any pictures? And maybe you could find the numbers of the stops etc. you ordered.
Cause when I asked the salesman, he just gave me a funny look and then hesitatingly said "Yeah, I suppose that could be done..."
Thanks!

(excuse me for my English, I'm Dutch)

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Fedde

As it happens, I have been considering this as well. I have a new K3 with a 49" slider, and have been struggling to set up a Franz and Fritz jig. Then it occurred to me that everyone else has theirs resting against the crosscut fence at the far end of the slider, and mine is the other way around (in other words, nothing to hold the F&F). It makes more sense to reverse the set up I have.

I was not aware that Chris had done this, and spoke with him about the possibility. He then sent me photos of his set up. Hopefully, he will read your post.

Just to let you know that you are not crazy :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joel Wesseling]

I have a K3WC. I couldnt live without the outrigger and its easy to remove. Previously owned a vintage SCM slididing tables saw with outrigger and used it frequently and I was certain I had to have one on the new saw. In the Felder showroom the K3 had the 2 crosscut fences installed, one at each end. The rep said it was simply to show it this way, and that its not a necessary setup. He talked me out of purchasing a second fence. He was right. Im purchasing an F3 Shaper and looking at adding the outrigger. It tucks away neatly(like K3) when not needed but always available when the need arises.
I have 2 Bessey table hold down clamps and I made 2 T-nuts to fit into the groove in the sliding table

[Chris Parks]

My apologies for the delay, here are the pics I sent to Derek C. showing the CC fence on the front of the saw. I bought the same stops from Hammer as are on the operator end of the table because I did not want to have to fuss around squaring the fence if I changed it back to the original position but in the end I never did so it was a waste of a small amount of money. Now I have the outrigger the idea has become redundant though I do have two CC fences as the outrigger comes with one as well. If you buy the saw with the outrigger you only get one CC fence.


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[Chris Parks]

I have a K3WC. I couldn't live without the outrigger and its easy to remove.

Joel, what do you see as the advantage of removing the outrigger as the crosscut fence is still the same width or wider. On my saw the table is too short to have two CC fences.

[Fedde Vennix]

Hi Derek,

I came across your postings on woodworkforums :-)

Thanks for answering!
I like having the crosscut fence at the front end, when crosscutting it's easier to get a piece of scrap and protect the back of the crosscut.
And the F & F jig is one of the things I'm hoping to enjoy.... almost, just one more month of waiting...

Thanks for the confirmation of my mental state :-D

Regards,
Fedde.


Hi Fedde

As it happens, I have been considering this as well. I have a new K3 with a 49" slider, and have been struggling to set up a Franz and Fritz jig. Then it occurred to me that everyone else has theirs resting against the crosscut fence at the far end of the slider, and mine is the other way around (in other words, nothing to hold the F&F). It makes more sense to reverse the set up I have.

I was not aware that Chris had done this, and spoke with him about the possibility. He then sent me photos of his set up. Hopefully, he will read your post.

Just to let you know that you are not crazy :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Fedde Vennix]

Hi Chris,

thanks for the photos, this is exactly what I would want on my new to come K3!
Now I can show my salesman what I'm trying to do. Will I be able to use the same fence (without to much hassle) on both ends?

Thanks,
Fedde

[Rod Sheridan]

Joel, what do you see as the advantage of removing the outrigger as the crosscut fence is still the same width or wider. On my saw the table is too short to have two CC fences.

I'm not Joel, however I also remove the crosscut fence when not in use as I have a small shop and it's a hazard.

I also normally have the outrigger removed and hanging on the wall.

When I need them they pop back on and I have the capacity I need without the waste of space...............Regards, Rod.

P.S. I have the shorter fence to use without the outrigger, and the longer fence for the outrigger.

[Chris Parks]

Rod, I hadn't thought about the shorter fence and no outrigger so I see your point in a small workshop which fortunately mine is not. If the outrigger is removed and the longer fence is all you have I don't see the point. The question then arises, if you use an F&F jig how do you manage without the fence on the out feed end of the sliding table.

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, I hadn't thought about the shorter fence and no outrigger so I see your point in a small workshop which fortunately mine is not. If the outrigger is removed and the longer fence is all you have I don't see the point. The question then arises, if you use an F&F jig how do you manage without the fence on the out feed end of the sliding table.

Hi Chris, in my shop the crosscut fence sticks out into the drill press and bandsaw areas.

Removing it allows for shop space, and of course if you're ripping something longer than the slider stroke you need to remove it then............Rod.

[Derek Cohen]

What is the "shorter fence"? Link?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Fedde Vennix]

The question then arises, if you use an F&F jig how do you manage without the fence on the out feed end of the sliding table.
I came across a picture where someone just put a piece of multiplex clamp-screwed to the T-groove in front end and then the Fritz und Franz jig. Just as with a fence.
(I can't seem to find the photo now...)

[Joel Wesseling]

when ripping narrow pieces with outrigger on, I lock the slider and simply angle the fence away from the blade so material can move past it. For wider boards I remove the fence and outrigger, partly because of my narrow space, but so I can walk around to back of the saw without the obstruction of fence and outrigger. There is one small issue I have with the cast tables short depth, control of narrow boards at front and boards falling off back of the saw. I believe there is an outfeed extension table available.

[Chris Parks]

Joel, you never use an F&F jig?

Fedde, do you have an arrangement to square the stop to the blade when it is mounted to the table or do you manually do that each time. A photo of your stop would be nice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--M-Iz2pw1k



Derek, the short and long fences being referred to are supplied with the saw depending on how it is configured at purchase and there is an extension you can buy for both that slides into the parent fence so as to not make the fence any longer if it is not in use. The short fence is what you have and is fitted when the outrigger is not ordered, the long fence comes with the outrigger. I have both because I retrofitted the out rigger.

[Joel Wesseling]

Joel, you never use an F&F jig? No, I have never used one. What am I missing?

[Chris Parks]

No, I have never used one. What am I missing?

The original, lousy video and German audio but you will get the idea https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqzVglze9Nk

Steve Rowe from here showing his version https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0PyFjtSHrE

[Mike Konobeck]

You can see the jig I built some time ago. Worked great. I have since sold my slider but am going to buy another one soon and will build the same thing. Maybe some slight improvements but all in all it worked well: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?198099-Observations-on-Euro-style-sliding-saws&p=2058362#post2058362

[Rod Sheridan]

What is the "shorter fence"? Link?

Regards from Perth

Derek

The shorter crosscut fence is the one that functions like a mitre gauge, it attaches directly to the sliding table. It's 900mm long.

The longer fence is the one used with the outrigger, it's 1,300mm long....................Rod.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Fedde Vennix]

Fedde, do you have an arrangement to square the stop to the blade when it is mounted to the table or do you manually do that each time. A photo of your stop would be nice.
Sorry, missed your post (I have to get used to this non-chronologic forum).
I don't have the Hammer yet, but what I think is that when you make the Fritz und Franz jig you make a squaring rail on the jig it self, which slides into the T-groove of the sliding table. But that is only an assumption!

[Andy Giddings]

Sorry, missed your post (I have to get used to this non-chronologic forum).
I don't have the Hammer yet, but what I think is that when you make the Fritz und Franz jig you make a squaring rail on the jig it self, which slides into the T-groove of the sliding table. But that is only an assumption!
Fedde, you can choose whether the posts are listed via date (linear) or by threaded mode - just use the Display pull down at the top right

[Chris Parks]

Sorry, missed your post (I have to get used to this non-chronologic forum).
I don't have the Hammer yet, but what I think is that when you make the Fritz und Franz jig you make a squaring rail on the jig it self, which slides into the T-groove of the sliding table. But that is only an assumption!

That is correct but the front of the jig must clamp to the table or rest against something that is and usually that is the crosscut fence for simplicity as most of these saws have the outrigger and the fence at the front. Mine didn't as I ordered it without the outrigger and it was supplied with the fence at the operator end of the table as Derek's is. I found that the rail itself did not prevent movement of the jig and needed to rest against the fence to remain square to the blade. The slot does not have parallel sides as a cabinet saw has, the top opening is narrower than the slot under it.

[Bill Adamsen]

<p>

My sense is that the longer slide does take a considerable amount of a stroke space A slider not only requires stroke space, but space to both the right and especially the left of the saw blade. A common cut is to remove a small amount from the end of an 8 foot sheet good, and that requires almost 8 feet to the left of the blade. For reasons not worth describing here, I normally have just 86 inches and it is a real source of irritation. My machine is big enough to where it is not easily moved, hence a track saw is indispensable. If the saw can be moved to a position where it accomodates such a cut, that would be a good thing.</p>

[Chris Parks]

The in and out feed space for any board cut on a slider or on a cabinet saw does not change, the size of the board defines the space needed.