Tail/Wagon vise utility

[David Ragan]

what is easiest way to incorporate a tail or wagon vise into my existing maple bench?

Say I want to clamp something like a small plank, so the entire face could be planed w/o having to replace clamps all around? you know, clamp end to end.

Any work around?

Below is my bench, and a rig I saw in a magazine:


.308020308021308019

[Jim Koepke]

My first guess is you are a left hander struggling with a right hand bench.

For this situation my solution would be to drill some dog holes. At least one in the vise and a row in line with the vise in the top. Two rows in line with either side of the vise jaw is better imo.

Also in my opinion a jaw on a vise like the one in your images should reach to at least one edge of the top.

Other solutions would be to have a piece of wood across the far end as a stop for planing against.

Here is another idea for holding things on edge:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?223428-Holding-Without-A-Vise

jtk

[Reinis Kanders]

Batten with holdfast at one end and dog at the other end. One can also just plane against a stop.

[ken hatch]

David,

Looking at your bench confuses me a little. Are you left handed? You have a deadman but no face vise on that side. You have a vise in the end position and a row of dog holes down the middle but as best I can see no dogs on the vise. The third photo looks like a lot of monkey motion for something that could be done easier and better. Google stops, battens, and holdfasts. I haven't looked but I'll bet there are a ton of videos on using 'em.

I've found the easiest way to hold small planks for face planing is to use a stop and a "doe's foot". Here is a link to The English Woodworker using a doe's foot: http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1434

BTW, I've been down the wagon vise and end vise road, found it to be a dead end. Others will differ.

ken

[David Ragan]

David,

Looking at your bench confuses me a little. Are you left handed? You have a deadman but no face vise on that side. You have a vise in the end position and a row of dog holes down the middle but as best I can see no dogs on the vise. The third photo looks like a lot of monkey motion for something that could be done easier and better. Google stops, battens, and holdfasts. I haven't looked but I'll bet there are a ton of videos on using 'em.

I've found the easiest way to hold small planks for face planing is to use a stop and a "doe's foot". Here is a link to The English Woodworker using a doe's foot: http://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/?p=1434

BTW, I've been down the wagon vise and end vise road, found it to be a dead end. Others will differ.

ken

Jim and Ken, im rt handed, i shot third pic at end of bench i dont often use. First two pics are my preferred work area-but computrr there.
when i built bench i had no idea what i was doing-still dont half the time
i put dog holes in bench center line w vise, but found reaching over not good
have never used the deadman besides to hold stuff- and that is a tight area, so w all shop changes now happening, i might be looking for better area to store holdfasts
the other thread from last Novembr is great- found roy underhills video
----Jim- i reaally like the bench claw- way cool. Do u jusy eyeball the shape, etc or is there a plan somewhere?

And, if i do extend the face of the end vise to edge of bench, its going to rack unless i allow for that one opposite side of jaw-a hassles, right?

Doe's foot is something that will be simple to make and usefull; i'll have to look @ that video too

[Jim Koepke]

----Jim- i reaally like the bench claw- way cool. Do u jusy eyeball the shape, etc or is there a plan somewhere?

And, if i do extend the face of the end vise to edge of bench, its going to rack unless i allow for that one opposite side of jaw-a hassles, right?

Doe's foot is something that will be simple to make and usefull; i'll have to look @ that video too

The shape of the "claw" was kind of eyeballed to look a bit like a 6. It let's the tails engage and the round end works kind of like a cam lock. Before making this out of pine a prototype was made out of some cedar scrap to help with the design.

Here is something to help overcome racking:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183743-Anti-Rack-Spacer-Stack

The 1/8" spacer to dowel interface is the weak spot. Mine has been repaired twice. Now it gets treated with care. One of my thoughts was to include a 3/16" spacer. That would allow sizing from 1/8" to 2-1/16" in increments of 1/16". It would require all but the smallest one to be make more like the 1" shim with an offset. So far 1/8" increments seems to work fine.

Here is something recent from Chris Schwarz about the doe's foot:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/modern-high-traction-foot

The doe's foot is a nice addition to the repertoire of bench top holding devices.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

BTW, I've been down the wagon vise and end vise road, found it to be a dead end.
Would you be willing to elaborate and or maybe a photo or two to demonstrate ?

[ken hatch]

David,

Do you have a face vise on the bench? I use a face vise often, as in almost anytime I'm working on the bench, when I had end vises and wagon vises they were almost never used. My current bench does not have an end vise of any kind and I do not miss it. Others use their end vises all the time.

Btw, your bench looks like it could be very usable with just a couple of fairly easy mods, i.e. install the end vise in a face position, make a stop or two, and drill dog holes for your hold fast where needed. The bones are there, it just needs a little tweaking.

ken

[Jeff Ranck]

If the "front" of your bench is the side where the brush is hanging off of the legs, you can remove your current "end" vise and bring it toward the front so that the "edge" of the chop/jaw on the end vise is aligned with the front of you bench. Then you can drill some dog holes in the top of your chop and along the front edge of your bench. The end vise and row of dog holes can then be used to clamp the board so that it is parallel to the front of your bench.

Take a look at Bob Lang's 21st Century workbench. For example, at about 1:44 on this video: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/video/bench

Jeff.

[Jeff Ranck]

For example, at about 1:44 on this video: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/video/bench


Sorry, make that at about 1:56.

Jeff.

[Marc Seguin]

I've been using a Veritas wonder dog on the bench I'm building now. I had originally planned on putting in an end vise, but now I think I'll skip it. The wonder dog and holdfasts (potentially with a batten) have done everything I've needed for workholding. I think if you make a strip of dog holes near the working side of your bench and try a wonder dog you may not need to mess with your vise setup.

[David Ragan]

The shape of the "claw" was kind of eyeballed to look a bit like a 6. It let's the tails engage and the round end works kind of like a cam lock. Before making this out of pine a prototype was made out of some cedar scrap to help with the design.

Here is something to help overcome racking:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?183743-Anti-Rack-Spacer-Stack

The 1/8" spacer to dowel interface is the weak spot. Mine has been repaired twice. Now it gets treated with care. One of my thoughts was to include a 3/16" spacer. That would allow sizing from 1/8" to 2-1/16" in increments of 1/16". It would require all but the smallest one to be make more like the 1" shim with an offset. So far 1/8" increments seems to work fine.

Here is something recent from Chris Schwarz about the doe's foot:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/modern-high-traction-foot

The doe's foot is a nice addition to the repertoire of bench top holding devices.

jtk

Jim-can i get the long version of the spacer stack? I got part of the idea, but i think not grasping the entire thing
great idea- family gave me the LV one for Christmas a while back, but i think your design is likely better

[David Ragan]

David,

Do you have a face vise on the bench? I use a face vise often, as in almost anytime I'm working on the bench, when I had end vises and wagon vises they were almost never used. My current bench does not have an end vise of any kind and I do not miss it. Others use their end vises all the time.

Btw, your bench looks like it could be very usable with just a couple of fairly easy mods, i.e. install the end vise in a face position, make a stop or two, and drill dog holes for your hold fast where needed. The bones are there, it just needs a little tweaking.

ken

Well, now that u mention it, i rarely use it- and there is another at the other end
if i turn it into a face vise, that is doable..... But the length of board will be ltd by width of bench + extension of vise= max length (subtract offset for distance of far doghole from edge)

is there other modification that might help ( im open to any ideas to get more out of bench)?

[Winton Applegate]

what is easiest way to incorporate a tail or wagon vise into my existing maple bench?
Oh man . . . you're screwed.
Nice floor.

The thing a very stout tail vise will do for you is allow you to scrub/jack plane cross grain with great alacrity and vigorous vigor. A quick poke at the dog and a turn on the vise handle and bada boom bada bing you be scrubbing'.

Wagon vises always look so . . . not up to the job of powerfully gripping a serious plank.
I have no actual experience with them but when I compare beef and brawn . . . well . . . nah dude, nah.

There are all kinds of work arounds but takes three hands to set up and I have never seen the attraction.
As far as just a length wise finish plane stroke see the simple stop on my bench. Well it is down in that slot running crosswise ; see photo of vise handle taken apart. It is just a length of purple heart that fits snug in the slot. Push it up and go. I don't use it much.
But
When one needs to start getting western with cross plaining it isn't used and we are back to the dogs and a tail vise.

Mostly I just put the plank against a dog and start planing (no tail vise needed for finish planing pushing straight down the length of the plank even for edge planing often I don't clamp but just plane against a dog).

I see you have the middle steel dog on your vise. maybe move the whole vise over where it belongs near the side edge of the bench . . . or add a second vise like that on the corner of the bench.

PS: Going to miss you Leonard !

[ken hatch]

Would you be willing to elaborate and or maybe a photo or two to demonstrate ?

Winton,

I know you love your classic German bench. I'm sure it works well for you. There is nothing wrong with either end vises or wagon vises but I find either unnecessary for holding work. As posted before, I installed 'em found I didn't use 'em and my current bench is end viseless. If installed, about the only thing I would use an end vise for would be to clamp a board for cutting tenons. With the placement of my QR face vise even that is not a great advantage. Wagon vises don't hold any better than a doe's foot and stop, are slower to use, and like with a end vise you have to be careful not to over clamp.

For the folks that love 'em good on them. I've just found they are not worth the trouble to install nor the real estate they take up. As always with anything wood...YMMV.

ken

P.S. As I'm sure you have seen, there are a lot of benches being built per the flavor of the day, usually according to the latest from C.S.. Your classic bench is a perfect example, at one time it was the "only" woodworking bench. Now not so much.

As I have posted before I'm an advocate of building quick, simple, cheap, and several until you figure out what the heck you are going to do on your work bench. Once you figure that out then go for the nice one if you wish. I know you just jumped into the deep end at the get go hoping you could swim and did but....not everyone can :-).

[Reinis Kanders]

Tail vise does come in handy for me when boards start to get longer than about 4/5 of my benches size. I do most of my thicknessing by hand and doe's foot or batten do not work well when one end of the board is near the benches edge. If board is long and narrow then face vise and apron dogs work well, but for wider boards (I was planing some 12 inch wide one tonight) i am not sure what works besides the tail vise.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

Both Lee Valley and HNT Gordon make drop-in wagon visas that work well. I've used the HNT Gordon and it is well made, easy to install, and reliable ..


http://www.hntgordon.com.au/images/shop/upload/tailvice_004_823609258.jpg

http://www.hntgordon.com.au/bench-vices/product/177-tail-vice-150mm-incl-one-1-4-high-dog.html

(note that the exchange rate in in your favour ++ at this time)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Ragan]

Hi David

Both Lee Valley and HNT Gordon make drop-in wagon visas that work well. I've used the HNT Gordon and it is well made, easy to install, and reliable ..


http://www.hntgordon.com.au/images/shop/upload/tailvice_004_823609258.jpg

http://www.hntgordon.com.au/bench-vices/product/177-tail-vice-150mm-incl-one-1-4-high-dog.html

(note that the exchange rate in in your favour ++ at this time)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Looks like a great bday gift for me!

Then if i do this and dont like/use it-I have to eat crow for you all

[Tony Shea]

As much as I don't want to agree with Winton I think he is exactly right in the fact that a proper tail vise setup is irreplaceable. But I don't agree in that a well made wagon vise will not supply the same amount of force, especially something with a screw like the Brenchcrafted version.

But his post is not about building a workbench but about retrofitting a bench with a tail vise setup. Lee Valley has a great tail vise that bolts to the underside of the bench and you add a wooden chop to this. Problem is that you would need to add another strip of wood to the front edge of the entire bench in order for this to work. The other options are what Derek has posted, and I would probably go the HNT Gordon version as I'm not really sold on the LV design.

As for using a does foot....I am not a huge fan of this either. When doing to serious thicknessing in hardwoods I have not had good luck with the holding power of these. It works great when planing softwood but the extra force of the hardwood tends to make this device give up, in my experience.

[Winton Applegate]

I like Bob Lang but that was just a commercial for the prefab stick on goo gahs for sale.
Glad somebody finally put some leather pads on the hold fasts; that was useful.
There are better bench hooks with a lower layer to protect the bench surface.
And
See simple flip up stop on the Klausz bench for an alternative cross cut sawing stop.
I saw the ad for Frank Klausz down there on the same page.
What would have been FUN would be to have had Frank critique the 21st century bench.
Ooooo that would have been delicious.
PS: Dominos is awful . . . around here we order a delivered double sauce and double beef and it is as if they tossed it onto the crust from clear across the room. I will never order a Dominos pizza again; we are tired of arguing with them.

[Winton Applegate]

As much as I don't want to agree with Winton . . .
YES !
:) You made my morning with just that simple start.
Ha, ha,
now I will go back and read the rest of your post.

[Winton Applegate]

Lang vid
to be fair Jeff was giving an example of how the dog in the rails in the way vise on the end could be used with dogs put near the side of the vise and is the whole point.
I couldn't help giving the vid a zingger though.

[Winton Applegate]

Too many hog the thread posts
sorry
David R.
the set into the surface wagon vise looks much more shear force resistant than many of the other wagons I have seen.
It may serve your needs well.
One thing that imediately came to mind though is the lack of lenth of the dog :
Imagine a good rough eight quarter plank with some bow in it or angular cut end or a nearly finished component with a half lap or tenon on it . . . you will want to extend the dog up to get a proper purchase on the whole or upper thickness of the work and it could be weak or useless.

[David Ragan]

Too many hog the thread posts
sorry
David R.s.

Im glad you (w caveat) like the vise
I dont understand about hogging the thread. Did i do something wrong?

[Winton Applegate]

hogging the thread
Oh no, no David
I meant ME
I was answering / responding to a few posts and without wanting to take up all the room I HAD HOGGED THE THREAD
not you.
Looking back I should have read further first and then put all my reactions in one post.

Write all you want
As Frasier says : I'm listening.

[Jim Matthews]

Looks like a great bday gift for me!

Then if i do this and dont like/use it-I have to eat crow for you all

The Gordon is gorgeous, and beautifully made.
It's also a great deal more expensive than the LV inset vise.

In my opinion, you're over thinking clamping.
It would be better (in my opinion) to have a series
of stops such as the Veritas aluminum planing stops
that you could position where you like.

If you're like most of us, you'll have a preferred size stock.
Where that rest on the bench is the place to put a couple of
dog holes.

In the latest iteration of my bench, I split the top and dropped
in a large batten. It can be raised to act as a stop.

Fixtures should be for things that you do all the time.

Have a look at Bob Rozaieski's excellent Logan Cabinet Shoppe podcast.
He rarely has things fixed down - the force of planing is sufficient
to keep the boards in place.

[Michael Peet]

The thing a very stout tail vise will do for you is allow you to scrub/jack plane cross grain with great alacrity and vigorous vigor. A quick poke at the dog and a turn on the vise handle and bada boom bada bing you be scrubbing'.

Wagon vises always look so . . . not up to the job of powerfully gripping a serious plank.ise like that on the corner of the bench.

I scrub with my wagon vise all the time. It works great!


PS: Going to miss you Leonard !

Roger that! \V/

[David Ragan]

The Gordon is gorgeous, and beautifully made.
It's also a great deal more expensive than the LV inset vise.

In my opinion, you're over thinking clamping.
It would be better (in my opinion) to have a series
of stops such as the Veritas aluminum planing stops
that you could position where you like.

If you're like most of us, you'll have a preferred size stock.
Where that rest on the bench is the place to put a couple of
dog holes.

In the latest iteration of my bench, I split the top and dropped
in a large batten. It can be raised to act as a stop.

Fixtures should be for things that you do all the time.

Have a look at Bob Rozaieski's excellent Logan Cabinet Shoppe podcast.
He rarely has things fixed down - the force of planing is sufficient
to keep the boards in place.

Yes, it is gorgeous.

But I wonder if the knob would be hard to turn, as I have lost a bit of my grip strength.

Aren't pretty tools just the best?

[Bob Snyder - Austin]

Can you put a dog in your tail vise's chop and a line of dog holes in the bench? That's what I have any it works great.

[Jim Koepke]

Can you put a dog in your tail vise's chop and a line of dog holes in the bench? That's what I have any it works great.

My bench came with two rows of dog holes in line with the two dog holes on the tail vise. One problem was vise racking. Making a stack of spacers to remedy the racking also remedied the tendency of thin stock to bow. The Anti Racking Spacer Stack prevents the jaw from pinching the stock enough to cause bowing.

jtk