Counterfeit/Knockoff Tools

[Jim Koepke]

Glen Drake talks about a couple hammers sold as his coming back for repair.

The only problem is they weren't made by him.

http://www.glen-drake.com/blog/knockoffs/

jtk

[george wilson]

amazing that someone would resort to copying those. Do they sell enough volume to make it worthwhile?

[Frederick Skelly]

That stinks. And hes right - its terribly hard to stop.

Looks like he does nice tools. Liked that 3.5 oz plane hammer. Been wondering if I should buy LV's. Think I'll save up some pennies and try this man out.

[Paul Sidener]

I guess that is the world we live in. That is why I always buy direct from the producer, whenever possible. The bonus to that is all the profit goes to the producer. Weather it be a smaller guy like Glen Drake, or the larger ones like Lie-Nielsen. To steal from them can cost the ability for them to develop and produce other tools.

[Kees Heiden]

Of course, counterfeits suck, and when you know about a tool being a counterfeit, better not to buy it. But it isn't all black and white and often difficult for consumers to decide what is right and wrong. I'm afraid a few people boycotting woodcraft is not going to help. Where to draw the line? The big box stores overhere are probably full of counterfeits too, but I still need them for all kinds of stuff.

Being a small player in a capitalistic world sucks. This is nothing new btw. And has always been normal business. When someone has success with a new product others would be quick to get a piece of the pie too. Patenting a hammer is probably impossible and proving a copyright claim won't be easy either. A one man shop has to stay on its toes, keep improving and designing new products, seeking other ways to make himself standing out from the rest.

It's easy to blame the capitalists, but it brought us our modern world too. I don't think anyone would like to go back to the protected trade from the middle ages.

[Michael Ray Smith]

That stinks. And hes right - its terribly hard to stop.

Yes, it's sometimes hard to stop, but for someone who makes a living making and selling a product, counterfeits can be devastating, both because of the loss of the immediate sale and from the damage to reputation caused by lower quality products. That's precisely the reason trademark law was developed. Trademarks weren't intended to identify the product so much as to identify the manufacturer of the product as an assurance of quality to the buyer. Trademark law was developed to give manufacturers an exclusive right to place a unique mark on products and to give buyers confidence that products bearing that mark were indeed made by that particular manufacturer. So in a sense, trademark infringement was an early form of identity theft. Although things have changed a bit (e.g., trademarks can be licensed for use by others, which is sort of inconsistent with the idea that a mark identifies the person who made the product), trademark law still serves that same basis purpose, and some legal fees paid to an intellectual property attorney to protect a trademark can be money well spent. It can be a very expensive proposition to stop someone who is determined to make and sell counterfeits, particularly if the infringer is in another country with weak intellectual property laws, but sometimes a simple cease-and-desist letter is enough to take care of the problem. (Fair Disclosure: I'm a lawyer, but not an intellectual property lawyer, and this is neither legal advice nor a solicitation. It is, however, a recommendation to see an intellectual property lawyer if someone is selling counterfeits of your tools or other products.)

[Jim Koepke]

From what is alluded in Glen Drakes piece on this it sounds like he may have a case against the retailer.

I do not know law, but it sounds like a case for a cease & desist order with a possible ruling for damages for each one they have sold.

Especially if they are using a picture of his product on the box.

jtk

[Phillip West]

I see a lot of grey area it seems in the woodworking tool world were tools are concerned..One company copies(yes they have improved it some but they still used a pre existing design regardless) one tool then another company copies them or that tool? Who did they copy, the copiers or the original? BUT this is clearly different.Especially using a pic of his tool..Thats very clearly crossing the line..
Its very hard to stop and its just as rampant in the cutlery world..Big name semi-custom makers like Rick Henderer are copied ver batum by Chinese knockoffs, so are other makers..Its hard to enforce laws in countries were our laws have no meaning.

[Jim Koepke]

I see a lot of grey area it seems in the woodworking tool world were tools are concerned.

My tendency is to buy North American made tools. Often it means buying old tools. Too many items from low cost labor parts of the globe have proven to only look like a tool instead of being a usable object. Too many people have put in their time, labor and investment to revive a market for quality tools to feel good about saving a few dollars only to put the innovators out of business.

We currently have very lax consumer and even producer protection laws.

At one time the country of origin was clearly marked on a product, not in small type under a stick on label.

At one time "brass hardware" was made of brass, not brass plated.

Today we live in a fool's paradise where if the sales material says the 10¢ item is the same as the $1 item we naturally believe this canard.

Buyer beware is more important now than it ever has been. There are too many unscrupulous people out and about who do not care how they get your money, just as long as they get it.

jtk

[Roger Rettenmeier]

I bought some extra screw drivers out of a hardware store "bargain bin". Screw drivers are one of those things that need to be in 4 or 5 locations anyway (house, shop, vehicles, tool boxes), so, why not? These must have been a China, or India deal, because though they LOOKED like a tool, they just bent when I actually tried to use them. I did pick up a couple Stanleys, and some"perfect handle" screwdrivers since, in old tool lots on the auction site. They were bonus scores, since I was more interested in other tools in those lots.

[Frederick Skelly]

I see a lot of grey area it seems in the woodworking tool world were tools are concerned..One company copies(yes they have improved it some but they still used a pre existing design regardless) one tool then another company copies them or that tool? Who did they copy, the copiers or the original? BUT this is clearly different.Especially using a pic of his tool..Thats very clearly crossing the line..
Its very hard to stop and its just as rampant in the cutlery world..Big name semi-custom makers like Rick Henderer are copied ver batum by Chinese knockoffs, so are other makers..Its hard to enforce laws in countries were our laws have no meaning.

There was a serious problem with counterfeit electrical breakers a few years back. Someone was copying the design of a major manufacturer's stuff and the copies were not reliable. Imagine thinking you have adequate circuit protection and when you need it, it doesnt work. It was a terrible mess to clean up.

[Derek Cohen]

Piracy of designs has been rife for a long, long time. More obvious examples are power tools, where design patents expire and versions of a successful (for example) tablesaw are manufactured by various factories and badged under their own name. We become more aware of this area in handtools as a result of threads such as this one. I read recommendations for handtools on many forums, but is seems to me that the one ones more likely to suggest a knock off design are either the UK forums or forums that cater to beginner woodworkers. In both cases the interest lies in buying as cheaply as possible. The argument/justification is usually that the original tool is too expensive.

Where lines of design ownership become blurred - and a "loop hole" for morality (or should that be immorality) creeps in - lies with those tools that have been around for many years, and the design changes are not always obvious (but enough to say that the design is "different"). Sometimes it is Trade Dress that is the issue. Examples being the Bailey handplane (LN vs early WoodRiver), ongoing knock offs of LN and LV spokeshaves, and ongoing knock offs of the Tite-Mark and LV wheel gauges. I have also seen the Chinese-version of the Tite-Mark hammers on sale at Woodshows and one local woodstore in Perth. I must add that this is not about Chinese factories, but about piracy of design. I know of sellers of look-a-like Blue Spruce marking knives in the UK, and the makers and buyers there do not see any issue in copying the design or buying the (cheaper) product.

The question is what can we do about this? The original makers could take legal action to protect themselves, but this is unlikely as most involved are small businesses that cannot afford the legal expenses. There are probably ways of taking out patents and enforcing them, but this is way outside my area of knowledge. What we can do is talk about this on the forums, to our mates, in discussions - just raise awareness. None of these people will thank you, however.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

None of these people will thank you, however.

They may not thank us, but if they can stay in business they may make the quality tools many of us prefer.

They may not thank us today, but they will likely express thanks when we do business with them.

Only a few new tools are purchased for my shop. When they are, it feels better to reward the person who invested in designing and bringing a tool to market than to save a few bucks buying from someone who is trying to take advantage of the ingenuity of others.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jim

Regarding the "not thanking us", I was referring to potential buyers of the knockoffs, not the manufacturers of the original designs. I agree with all your sentiment about keeping the good guys in business. That has been my argument all along.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Regarding the "not thanking us", I was referring to potential buyers of the knockoffs, not the manufacturers of the original designs.

Thanks for the clarification.

Most of the buyers of knockoffs will likely justify their purchase with their savings.

jtk

[Kees Heiden]

I think there is a message. Many woodworkers are looking for decent midrange stuff. Nobody needs a 50 dollar marking knife. Or a 70 dollar plane adjusting hammer. When you enjoy that kind of stuff, there is of course no problem with that. But I guess that the majority of the woodworkers frowns on prices like that.

The woodriver planes started out as a knockoff from the LN range. In the meantime they have put quite some devellopment in their range of planes. So they sure are not 100% clean, but they do answer a real demand from the market.

Luckily there is the antique market, otherwise I wouldn't know how I would have furnished my workshop.

[Derek Cohen]

Nobody needs a 50 dollar marking knife. Or a 70 dollar plane adjusting hammer.

Kees, you are quite right.

Many understand and accept this. Either purchase what you can afford at this time, save for what you would prefer, renovate or restore something used but good, or make your own. The issues only lie with those who want it instantly - unfortunately the direction the world is heading.


The woodriver planes started out as a knockoff from the LN range. In the meantime they have put quite some devellopment in their range of planes. So they sure are not 100% clean, but they do answer a real demand from the market.

I do believe that WR have been trying to clean up their act with regard the handplanes. And it is clear that they offer great value-for-money ... not as good as LN or LV, but they appear to be responding to the public commentary. On the other hand, there are still a number of other tools coming out of the factory, and they are not as kosher.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Zaffuto]

Derek,

I would contend it is also the dealers/retailers that greatly influence this issue. As far as the UK markets go, I believe it is more of the stature of several tool retailers that interact with their customers much the same as LV & LN (and routinely sell the knock-offs) that has cause the widespread acceptance of those tools in that country. Another reason, is the fact there are many more workmen in the UK using handtools in their profession as compared to other countries, such as the US. I believe Kees is correct in the message he stated, as far as a need for decent midrange tools.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Tony

I agree that the retailers have a vested interest in the forum members accepting knock offs. Import duty and other tariffs raise the price of tools, such as LN and LV beyond what those in the USA are used to spending. It is the same situation for us in Australia. Currently the exchange rate will add 50% to the retail price in the USA. However this is not the problem - this is the rationalisation.

The problem is that LN and LV are perceived around the world - this is not just one continent - as "premium" tools. WoodRiver is not perceived as a "middle range" tool but as a shortcut to acquiring a premium tool. The middle range tools are already available - vintage Stanley - however they are not considered as middle ground but entry level.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Anderson NH]

Interesting topic folks. As a toolmaker I personally don't worry about someone knocking off my designs. First, I can afford to ignore the issue because I only do it part time and any lost income is not going to determine whether or not I can put food on the table. Secondly, my tools are variations of designs and technologies that have been around for centuries and can't be protected by patents. Only my trademark stamped into the tools can be protected legally. As for design patents, they are so easy to work around that they aren't worth the trouble. However, the single most important thing is that Trade Dress, Design Patents, Trademarks, and regular patents are only useful protections if you have deep enough pockets to enforce them. Rhetorically, are you going to try and sue some factory in China over anyones $100 tools produced in either the hundreds or low thousands per year? The time, money, and energy involved would force you into bankrupcy. As for the morality, I agree with the previous posters. Counterfeiting is reprehensible.

[Paul Sidener]

.................We become more aware of this area in handtools as a result of threads such as this one. I read recommendations for handtools on many forums, but is seems to me that the one ones more likely to suggest a knock off design are either the UK forums or forums that cater to beginner woodworkers. In both cases the interest lies in buying as cheaply as possible. The argument/justification is usually that the original tool is too expensive. ........................

Regards from Perth

Derek


I think you hit the nail on the head there, pardon the pun. When someone is starting out trying to build a set of tools, it can be expensive. Even buying vintage, collectors can drive up the price on users too. I don't find much in antique stores around me. I don't know if it is they get sold quickly or they don't find their way into the store. That leaves me new or ebay, expensive or a gamble for junk. I usually go the expensive route. It took me a few months to save enough money in the wife don't know I have it fund, for a Lie-Nielsen #7. My wife is used to me saying, I need a new tool to build this. My wife is great, I get away with a lot. Anyways a new guy that sees two tools that look identical, is probably going to buy the one that is half the cost. They may not have figured out that cheap tools can frustrate you, by not preforming well.

There is an irony here. Some of my favorite tools are from Lie-Nielsen. Almost everything they produce is a copy of something else. They come right out and say their planes are Stanley Bedrock design. If someone tries to copy a Lie-Nielsen what would he be copying, a Lie-Nielsen or a Stanley? I know this discussion is more about Glen Drake. The Tite Mark is a often copied tool, but it is not the only one. I'm not sure if he even has a patent on his designs.

I'm not sure if I blame the stores either. They need to build a client list as well. If all they have is high end stuff, people just getting started or with different financial circumstances will not come into the store and spend their hard earned money. The stores need to stay in business as well. It is a fine line between profit and out of business. If they are out of business it will be more difficult for all of us. I prefer to buy direct, that isn't good for the stores either. I have a Woodcraft and a Rockler near by, within a half hour drive.

I am to the point, where I don't know what is right anymore. It seems the older I get the less I know. Either way it is an interesting discussion.

[Jim Koepke]

I think there is a message. Many woodworkers are looking for decent midrange stuff. Nobody needs a 50 dollar marking knife. Or a 70 dollar plane adjusting hammer.

People do crazy things with their money or to get their money. Some want the prize without the commitment.

In my case the desire for a plane adjusting mallet/hammer and a decent marking knife caused me to make my own. Anyone who does make their own can quickly see why prices are what they are.

Mortise chisels were another item wanted but out of my range for new, this was before Narex were marketed. After a lot of patience and lost bids a pair of old beat up mortise chisels were won at a very reasonable price. (even less than a pair of Narex) They are not as pretty as new and they both needed handles. But if settling for some 200 year old used chisels is what it took to put them in my shop, so be it.

To me there is no justification for supporting counterfeiters/pirates of any stripe. Finding ways to make some extra cash to pay the price of admission is not that difficult.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

It seems the older I get the less I know.

Isn't that the real wisdom of age?

If what one doesn't know is shrinking, then nothing has been learned.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

Isn't that the real wisdom of age?

If what one doesn't know is shrinking, then nothing has been learned.

jtk

And this may be one of the lesser reasons counterfeit tools proliferate! Some entering the hobby or profession have don't have the needed experience to make or rehab, along without the budget and settle with or without the knowledge that what they are getting not being either entirely satisfactory or the real McCoy.

[Winton Applegate]

We can blame China or some other country for the loss of American jobs, but the truth is that what has driven jobs overseas is our own preoccupation with money. America’s price-shopping robots couldn’t care less where something is made or how long it will last. Their only concern is price. What they don’t understand is that businesses will fail if they can’t cover costs. Price competition quickly morphs into cost competition. Lower costs mean lower quality. It’s a vicious cycle that impacts the quality of life for everyone.

I look at knock off tools like I look at harbor freight (not capitalized intentionally). . .
like I look at two dogs doing it in the yard
(even less in the case of h.f.)
I don't look
I've seen it before.
I have no interest in the details or lack there of.
I will give a specific case in point :
Birthday coming up . . .
I have been searching tool venders for a 100mm (four inch roughly) dial caliper. I have wanted a shorty for my apron all my life and put up with the longer ones.
I have and use digital but for my home shop (not daily use and cold temps) I want a non battery version and the solar powered (powered by the lights) does not seem to come in a shorty version.
I want this one. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000TGF82A/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER) I was afraid or I think I heard that they have been farmed out to Taiwan. I just happened to see when I was enlarging to look at the jaws (for carbide wear pads) that on the dial was printed "Made In Japan".
I can get a knock off for $30 or a real deal in the longer 150 mm for about $100 but I want the shorty.
I am going to pay the nut and get the cool one. I don't need the .01mm accuracy .02 would be fine but the small one only comes in the finer pitch as it were.
Well with any luck I can get Q to get it.
She may put me out on the deck for the night when she sees that price though.
Ah the sorted and embarrassing life the tool junkie leads. I would quit if I could.
but what then ? ? ? ?
Boredom and h.f.
well that was sobering.
I'm placing the order today my self.
Knock offs . . . hah . . . knock this off . . .

PS: I could get the 150mm and saw off 50mm and save $50 . . .
I may have mentioned in :
Surprised, dissapointed, puzzeled
Life in general has that effect on me.
You'll get used to it with time.
The only source of sanity if not grace are Douglas Adams books.
that was a good example
to save money I have to buy the big one and saw off part of it.
That makes sense . . . right ? . . .

[Reinis Kanders]

I had a similar experience with long brad point bits from eBay. They just would not drill holes even in a soft pine. Cutting edges had some burr, I cleaned it up, but still no good. I guess I will use them as a fire starters:)


I bought some extra screw drivers out of a hardware store "bargain bin". Screw drivers are one of those things that need to be in 4 or 5 locations anyway (house, shop, vehicles, tool boxes), so, why not? These must have been a China, or India deal, because though they LOOKED like a tool, they just bent when I actually tried to use them. I did pick up a couple Stanleys, and some"perfect handle" screwdrivers since, in old tool lots on the auction site. They were bonus scores, since I was more interested in other tools in those lots.

[dan sherman]

In my case the desire for a plane adjusting mallet/hammer and a decent marking knife caused me to make my own. Anyone who does make their own can quickly see why prices are what they are.


Perhaps its because I come from a fairly technical background, but to me a lot of the boutique hand tools are over priced. I see lots of designs that aren't optimized to minimize production time, or material waste. It blows my mind how many makers do everything manually as well.



Finding ways to make some extra cash to pay the price of admission is not that difficult.


I think that depends on your place in society. I have family members who would need to save for months to pay for what I would consider an impulse purchase. Once they had the money saved, they would probably buy something for their children instead of feeling guilty because they bought themselves a toy.


As a previous poster said, the middle of the road hand tool market is non existent.

[Bob Snyder - Austin]

My Tite Mark marking gauge from Glen Drake tools just arrived. Awesome piece of craftsmanship and helps to make sure these wonderful toolmakers stay around. I was on the fence about getting one, but when I read his blog entry, I decided to go ahead and pull the trigger. Couldn't be happier.

[Jim Koepke]

Perhaps its because I come from a fairly technical background, but to me a lot of the boutique hand tools are over priced. I see lots of designs that aren't optimized to minimize production time, or material waste. It blows my mind how many makers do everything manually as well.


Many of them are high priced and likely out of my price range. Considering all that has to be done to make some of those tools, the price doesn't look all that bad. Add in the bills that have to be paid, the insurance carried and many other expenses of being in business, those prices are easy to understand. Even if that is the case it is not right to pass something off as being the same at a "better" price.

At the local farmers market some folks think the price is a bit high on my potting benches. My willingness to meet Walmart's price has them smiling until they see Walmart priced theirs a lot higher than mine. Besides theirs doesn't look as good in the picture.

Having worked in production shops it is easy to see some things can be made in high production and the cost lowered. Does that mean there will be a market for them?

Maybe my shop could get a lot of power tools and cut the time it takes me to make a potting bench. Then all the noise in my shop would make me want to do something else.


I think that depends on your place in society. I have family members who would need to save for months to pay for what I would consider an impulse purchase. Once they had the money saved, they would probably buy something for their children instead of feeling guilty because they bought themselves a toy.

Yes, some people are disadvantaged. Yes, times are tough. The times have been tough for somebody for as long as my memory goes. There are things that would make improvements in my shop. My desire for some of these is enough to keep me looking for tools to rehabilitate and sell to make the extra money it will take to afford them. My desire is not enough to get me up and out to do it every day.


As a previous poster said, the middle of the road hand tool market is non existent.

Sadly there are only a few choices for the cash strapped woodworker. It mostly comes down to purchasing quality used tools. The problem with that is many people do not want to take time putting a tool into working order. Could that be why a century ago woodworkers were often referred to as mechanics? Maybe it was because woodworking was just one facet of being mechanical.

Was it Jim Hightower who said, "the only thing in the middle of the road is a couple of stripes and dead armadillos?"

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

My Tite Mark marking gauge from Glen Drake tools just arrived.

It is my most used marking gauge and yes, it is an "Awesome piece of craftsmanship."

jtk

[Michael Ray Smith]

I see a lot of grey area it seems in the woodworking tool world were tools are concerned..One company copies(yes they have improved it some but they still used a pre existing design regardless) one tool then another company copies them or that tool? Who did they copy, the copiers or the original? BUT this is clearly different.

Yes, it's different. Trademark infringement has nothing to do with the design of the product being sold. It has to do with the mark itself.

[George Wall]

The terms knockoff and counterfeit should not be used interchangeably.

A knockoff is basically a cheap imitation: the design of the original is closely copied, but there are usually differences in materials, workmanship, and minor design details that result in a product that is cheaper to build, which results in a lower price to the buyer. The brand name is usually some unknown private label brand. While it may superficially look like the original, there's no attempt by the manufacturer or retailer to portray the imitation as having the same brand as the original. The assumption behind this definition is that no patents, copyrights, or trademarks are violated. Knockoffs do have their purpose; not everyone can afford the most expensive brand, and not everyone needs the performance of the original for their task. Of course, knockoffs come with an implicit "caveat emptor" with regards to their quality, but at least the buyer is aware that he or she is not buying the original.

Counterfeit products are something else entirely. Counterfeits are cheap imitations that use the original product's branding in an attempt to portray themselves as the original. Counterfeits hurt a number of parties: the manufacturer of the original brand name; the buyer who thinks they're getting the original; and even the retailer, who may not even be aware that they are carrying a counterfeit version of the real thing, but could still end up being liable for damages. Counterfeits are illegal, and for good reason.

It's not all black and white, of course. Some knockoffs come very close to crossing the line to being counterfeit, or even go beyond "very close". OTOH, some products labeled as knockoffs are nothing more than simply less expensive goods. Even large manufacturers of many everyday products make higher grade and lower grade versions of their products.

Dealing with legal knockoffs is something that nearly every business owner needs to face at one time or other. I agree that word of mouth is the best way to educate potential buyers of the merits of dealing with the original. Good businesses will still succeed and even flourish by building and maintaining their reputation for quality and service. No business should have to deal with outright counterfeits, however.

[dan sherman]

The problem with that is many people do not want to take time putting a tool into working order.


That's a pretty presumptuous statement. Have you considered that some people might live in areas of the country where used tools aren't readily available, or that they don't want to take the 50/50 chance that the plane on eBay might be complete crap and a waste of money. A few years back i won a #8, and while it looked excellent in pictures (hi res ones no less), it took a Bridgeport, a face mill, and removing roughly 1/32" from the sole to get it flat. Most of the stuff that is for sale locally, was either crap when it was new, or looks like it's been used as a boat anchor, an anvil or both. Now if you want old John Deer stuff you practically trip over it around here.

[Jim Koepke]

That's a pretty presumptuous statement. Have you considered that some people might live in areas of the country where used tools aren't readily available, or that they don't want to take the 50/50 chance that the plane on eBay might be complete crap and a waste of money.

Many folks here often comment they do not have or want to take the time to work on old tools. Others feel a person should purchase a new high quality plane so they know "how a good one works." Maybe my learning the art of wood was hampered by my not being able to afford brand new high quality tools when my adventures in woodworking began. Maybe it is my fortune to not have given up when things didn't work as wanted.

My response now to people asking whether to buy new or used is usually something to the tune of if you have money but not much time, buying new may be better. If you have a lot of time but little money, then learning to find and fix used tools may be the best route to filling one's tool chest. If people make comments about not wanting to take the time, is it presumptuous to echo their statements?

Yes, in some parts of our nation and the world it is close to impossible to find used quality anything let alone woodworking tools. These folks may be able to have others networking for them. While enjoying a beer with my neighbor my propensity for buying woodworking tools came up. The next week he brought me a WW II version of a Stanley/Bailey #5 complete with a broken tote and toe end hang hole. So one should take care when enlisting the eyes of others.

Almost all parts of the country have classified advertising papers found in the local grocer and other businesses. In the local edition here there is a person who places ads stating he buys woodworking tools. He also sells them. Some of my tools were bought from him. My lathe was found with the aide of a "want to buy" card placed on the local supermarket's community bulletin board.

My stance used to be that people should purchase used and work on bringing an old tool back to life. After reading comments from many not having time, having limited shop time or even not being confident with using the tools required to fettle metal, my stance has changed.

Bad deals from second hand sales are no stranger to me. There are some people who will take advantage of every situation possible without regard to honesty. There are also people who will do everything possible to make sure what they sell is proper.

jtk

[dan sherman]

If people make comments about not wanting to take the time, is it presumptuous to echo their statements?

I would be willing to bet that the people who frequent the forum are a very small percentage of woodworking community, and thus not representative.




There are some people who will take advantage of every situation possible without regard to honesty.

I wouldn't say I was taken advantage of, more like I purchased a tool from an antique dealer who didn't know any better.

[Jim Koepke]

I would be willing to bet that the people who frequent the forum are a very small percentage of woodworking community, and thus not representative.

I wouldn't say I was taken advantage of, more like I purchased a tool from an antique dealer who didn't know any better.

Not being much of a betting person, my money would be on there not being much point to continuing this discussion.

jtk

[John Sanford]

Perhaps its because I come from a fairly technical background, but to me a lot of the boutique hand tools are over priced. I see lots of designs that aren't optimized to minimize production time, or material waste. It blows my mind how many makers do everything manually as well.
...
As a previous poster said, the middle of the road hand tool market is non existent.
They do so much manually because the capital costs of doing it otherwise are prohibitive. Sure, they could save 20% on their materials, knock 15% or more off their production time, but when doing so costs 3 times their annual revenue, that's probably a non-starter. Scaling up costs money, and if you can't get enough scale to make the money back, the subsequent economies of scale are only meaningful to the liquidation house.

[dan sherman]

They do so much manually because the capital costs of doing it otherwise are prohibitive. Sure, they could save 20% on their materials, knock 15% or more off their production time, but when doing so costs 3 times their annual revenue, that's probably a non-starter. Scaling up costs money, and if you can't get enough scale to make the money back, the subsequent economies of scale are only meaningful to the liquidation house.

Brass isn't cheap, and the tite-mark looks to be a one piece head turned out of solid bar stock, so it looks like he is spending a lot more on material than he needs to. The LV gauge is a two piece head, with a brace face an anodized aluminum body. The tite-mark could be constructed the same way completely out of brass, and would be a lot cheaper.

The first sentence in Glen's rant is "I design, make, and sell tools for a living" If he can't come up with with a few $k to buy/build a small cnc lathe for example I have to question how much business he is really doing or what he calls a living. He could probably cnc a little bench top manual lathe for less than $2k and produce stuff faster than he ever could manually.

[Jim Koepke]

Brass isn't cheap, and the tite-mark looks to be a one piece head turned out of solid bar stock, so it looks like he is spending a lot more on material than he needs to. The LV gauge is a two piece head, with a brace face an anodized aluminum body. The tite-mark could be constructed the same way completely out of brass, and would be a lot cheaper.

The first sentence in Glen's rant is "I design, make, and sell tools for a living" If he can't come up with with a few $k to buy/build a small cnc lathe for example I have to question how much business he is really doing or what he calls a living. He could probably cnc a little bench top manual lathe for less than $2k and produce stuff faster than he ever could manually.

Not having been to Glen Drake's facility it wasn't clear to me that he is cranking these out by hand. He sure is faster with his hands than me.

Having both the LV and the Tite-Mark inspired me to post a comparison:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?133966-Tite-Mark-Compared-to-Veritas-Wheel-Gauge

My Tite-Mark purchase was at a show so there was free shipping. Full retail was fine with me and there wouldn't be hesitation to purchase another if needed or suggest its purchase to anyone wanting a wheel type gauge.

If someone wants a less expensive gauge there are plenty of old Stanley gauges available. My old Stanleys get used almost as often as the Tite-Mark. The Veritas is a decent gauge. Mine doesn't get used much.

jtk

[Mike Cherry]

I met Mr. Drake at the LN hand tool event in San Marcos, CA about a month ago. We chatted and I could feel wisdom flowing from him. Everything tool he designed and showed me had his personal experience in mind. I had long lusted his marking gauge, and although I meant to buy a low angle jack, I decided to get his gauge. In a strange way I often think of Glen when I grab his gauge. I've never felt that way about a cheap ass screwdriver.

[Joe Tilson]

My wife is puzzled at my purchases from LV lately. I have tried to explain to her quality will last, but cheap products will cost you more when you have to purchase them over and over again. She like most people in this country are following what the big box stores are trying to train people to do,and that is to buy and then buy again. That's how they keep their bottom line in tact. I have been able to buy some really nice older tools lately which has proven to her quality counts and really saves money.

[Jim Koepke]

In a strange way I often think of Glen when I grab his gauge. I've never felt that way about a cheap ass screwdriver.

Yes, the makers come to mind when their tools are used.

The makers even come to mine when some "cheap @$$" tool is in hand. Although those thoughts are not fit for pixels in a public forum. :eek:

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

I met Mr. Drake at the LN hand tool event in San Marcos, CA about a month ago. We chatted and I could feel wisdom flowing from him. Everything tool he designed and showed me had his personal experience in mind. I had long lusted his marking gauge, and although I meant to buy a low angle jack, I decided to get his gauge. In a strange way I often think of Glen when I grab his gauge. I've never felt that way about a cheap ass screwdriver.
I was at the same show and bought a Tite-Mark from him. At an earlier show in San Diego, there was a slack period of about 1/2 hour during which he basically taught me how to saw. The most important part of all that was teaching me to listen to the saw. Anyway, the point is that I would no more buy a cheap knock-off of his tools than I would [insert whatever you think is really bad here.]

[John Sanford]

I was at the same show and bought a Tite-Mark from him. At an earlier show in San Diego, there was a slack period of about 1/2 hour during which he basically taught me how to saw. The most important part of all that was teaching me to listen to the saw. Anyway, the point is that I would no more buy a cheap knock-off of his tools than I would [insert whatever you think is really bad here.]


drink warm doublebock beer outside on a hot Las Vegas July day.
take a drama llama to a greyhound race
install a bandsaw blade facing backwards with the teeth pointing up
make a kimchee eclair
serve beans and weenies to the family before a long car trip
take safety training from Wile. E. Coyote
Windsurf in a Sharknado

[Curt Putnam]

:D:D:D:D

That isn't the full list is it?

[Winton Applegate]

Curt,

The most important part of all that was teaching me to listen to the saw.
Sounds like you have something great to post in the "Getting a Saw Started" thread. Please, if you would, elaborate.

John Sanford,



drink warm doublebock beer outside on a hot Las Vegas July day . . .
. . . . Windsurf in a Sharknado


Thanks for picking up the slack there for the humor brigade.
I enjoyed that.

[Curt Putnam]

Winton,

Sound is not that important for the start; it is important after the start. For a crude demonstration, start a cut and then try and change direction and listen to the sound. A saw that is cutting well sounds sweet, one in trouble makes all kinds of sounds, none pleasant.