Alternatives to mortise and tenon for small furniture build?

[scott vroom]

I'm building 2 night stands from QSWO, arts/crafts style. I don't have a mortiser and am wondering if biscuit joinery will be sufficient to attach the apron and stretcher pieces to the legs. I'm concerned about end grain butt joints with only a biscuit and glue.

I have a router table and purchased a spiral bit to make some slotted jigs. I'm wondering if I could use this setup to make the mortises? I also have an old PC 690 plunge router.

This is my first furniture build (I'm a cabinet guy) and I plan to make more in the A/C style. I've been looking at dedicated mortisers but am moving out of state within the year and would prefer waiting until I'm in my new shop to make the purchase....however I've got an itchy trigger finger and adding 1 more piece of tooling to the move isn't a huge deal.

[Greg Hines, MD]

I use a router to do all of my mortising, with a simple jig consisting of a hardboard base and a pair of fences that can be adjusted to trap your workpiece between them. 307883

It took me about an hour to make one just like this.

Doc

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I used a router and router table to successfully make mortises on my first piece of furniture. It works well.

[Mike Schuch]

I have always thought of biscuits as more for alignment than for added strength. Dowels might be an easy alternative to add strength. A mortiser is nice for cutting mortises but mortises were cut long before mortisers existed. When I think of Arts and Crafts style I think of through mortises... yes????

[Jim Dwight]

I actually used biscuits for a larger computer desk one time and it held for awhile but eventually the joints "failed". The table was still usable but the leg to apron joint was not still glued together. So I wouldn't advise this. Your aprons are probably fairly narrow and the slots for biscuits are somewhat long, especially for a #20 - the biggest.

I also have a 690, actually I have two. I also have a Jet benchtop mortiser. I prefer the Jet because of less noise and easier setup but the mortises made with the router are, if anything, nicer. A 1/4 spiral upcut bit might be a good, small, tool purchase to facilitate making the mortises. I usually buy bits from MLCS Woodworking (free delivery, good service, and good prices). While PC 690s are not the latest and greatest, I don't see any reason to "upgrade", they work well.

Another option stronger than biscuits (but weaker than mortise/tenon) would be pocket screws. On an apron joint, they wouldn't be very visible (only visible if you turn it over). Especially for end tables, I think they would hold fine. They could even be combined with a biscuit (biscuit would help to align the pieces).

[Art Mann]

I have stopped using M&T for the most part. I now use dowels. Dowels can be as strong or more so than mortises if you use enough of them and they are well distributed in the joint. The key to good dowel joinery is you must buy a really high quality precision doweling jig. The $50 or less ones you can buy at places like Sears are guaranteed to frustrate. I use a Dowelmax but I understand there is a new jig from Jessem (I think) that is supposed to be even better.

[Prashun Patel]

You can route slip tenons with a router easily.

You can also route tenons on the ends of your aprons and then route open slots on the leg tops. The bottoms of those slot mortises can remain round even if your tenons are squared.

You can route dovetails with a trim router into the tops of the legs and make a sliding dovetail on the apron if you want to be fancy.

Slip tenons or dowels are though the fastest.

[Randy Red Bemont]

I say that biscuits will work for you in this project. They are much stronger than people realize. If you can, go with the #20 biscuits.

Red

[Pat Barry]

Yes - use the router. Biscuits - I'm ambivalent - I don't think they can be counted on for strength. Maybe you could double up on biscuits if you do decide to go that way but it all depends on your rail thickness. Dowels for me were super frustrating, although I don't have the fancy jig. You could always do pocket screws.

[Mike Schuch]

I have stopped using M&T for the most part. I now use dowels. Dowels can be as strong or more so than mortises if you use enough of them and they are well distributed in the joint. The key to good dowel joinery is you must buy a really high quality precision doweling jig. The $50 or less ones you can buy at places like Sears are guaranteed to frustrate. I use a Dowelmax but I understand there is a new jig from Jessem (I think) that is supposed to be even better.

I disagree that an expensive dowel jig is needed for good results. When I was 7 my first job helping my father in the shop was drilling dowel holes with a Craftsman dowel jig. I have been using that same jig for over 40 years now and it has never let me down. I prefer my horizontal boring machine to a dowel jig but the old Craftsman jig still does an excellent job when I need a dowel jig.

P.S. My Stanley dome top routers are old routers. My 2 PC 690 routers are pretty new routers in my shop... and yes I like them almost as much as my old Stanley routers, even better in some situations!

[Bill Adamsen]

Scott ... I just finished a furniture job using my mortiser and of course it worked great. But during the process of doing it, I thought to myself, "if I were a little less lazy, I could drill these mortise holes out on the drill press and finish them off with a mortise chisel, then I could get rid of the machine and save a lot of room." And in fact, it would have taken not much more time using that approach.

[Phil Thien]

I have always thought of biscuits as more for alignment than for added strength. Dowels might be an easy alternative to add strength. A mortiser is nice for cutting mortises but mortises were cut long before mortisers existed. When I think of Arts and Crafts style I think of through mortises... yes????

I'd say they offer more strength than alignment. Especially if you're using a single biscuit.

And I'm not saying they offer a lot of strength. I think they get a bad rap (they're stronger than people think) but a single biscuit holding a leg to an apron, where there are no additional cross-pieces, isn't going to be that strong. I've done it, but only for a very small end-table.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Scott, I'm going to reply with the "purist" approach.

A&C furniture was a rebellion against the cheap mass produced industrial furniture, often built cheaply with dowels.

I like A&C furniture and enjoy making it, and I try to stick to normal construction methods for those such as M&T joints.

If I were you, I would use your router, or just drill and chisel the mortices.

The biscuits might be OK however like the defects in the stuff we build, you'll think about them every time you look at the furniture.........Rod.

[Phil Thien]

I have stopped using M&T for the most part. I now use dowels. Dowels can be as strong or more so than mortises if you use enough of them and they are well distributed in the joint. The key to good dowel joinery is you must buy a really high quality precision doweling jig. The $50 or less ones you can buy at places like Sears are guaranteed to frustrate. I use a Dowelmax but I understand there is a new jig from Jessem (I think) that is supposed to be even better.

I think dowels would work great. Here is a link to a thread I posted here after using my Jessem jig:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?213567-JessEm-doweling-jig-every-hole-perfect&highlight=jessem

[Kent A Bathurst]

Router #1
Dowel #2
Biscuits - toss that idea. No good - the end-grain issue is the problem. Save them for cabinets.

But - drill out waste and hand chop the sides - that would be my preferred method - depends on how many you've got to do, and if you are interested in spending the time. It is a very good way to learn what is going on with M&T joinery..............

[scott vroom]

Lots of ways to skin that cat. I'm thinking of using my 690 w/plunge base and edge guide. The design calls for thru tenons on the lower stretchers so I was thinking I might pick up a 2" spiral bit and make multiple passes to depth. Think that would pose any problems?

I was watching Marc Spagnuolo's vid in which he cuts the tenons using a dado blade. I've got a tenoning jig for the TS but frankly the dado method looks much easier (once the blades are set up). Anyone try this method?

This is my first furniture piece in many years, and my first effort at an A&C design. My wife is quite fond of the style and wants me to build a houseful....I'm going to be making lots of mortises, many through thick stock. I'm tempted to just get a quality hollow chisel rig. If a bench top most likely a General 75-050T, however I've read that for cutting deep mortises in oak a higher power floor model might be a better choice. The Powermatic 1791264K w/Tilt is around $1,275 delivered...it's something I'd get a lot of use out of.

[Jeffrey Martel]

Lots of ways to skin that cat. I'm thinking of using my 690 w/plunge base and edge guide. The design calls for thru tenons on the lower stretchers so I was thinking I might pick up a 2" spiral bit and make multiple passes to depth. Think that would pose any problems?

I was watching Marc Spagnuolo's tenoning vid in which he cuts the tenons using a dado blade. I've got a tenoning jig for the TS but frankly the dado method looks much easier (once the blades are set up). Anyone try this method?

Use a scrap board or piece of ply as a backer for the through mortise. Take a lot of passes. But it should be fine.

I don't like the dado method, myself. I use a homemade tenon jig from Woodgears. About the same speed as the dado blade method, and I get better results. The dado method perfectly centers the stock though, since you flip the piece. Doesn't give as clean of sides to the tenons as I'd like though.

[scott vroom]

I found a Whiteside 2" depth upcut spiral, 3 flute. How do I avoid tear out? If I start the cut on the exposed side I'm likely to get splintering from the upcut bit, and the same when I punch through the other side. Would it make sense to make the first pass with a downcut spiral, then switch over to the upcut?

Or would a backer prevent blowout on the exit hole?

[Mike Heidrick]

Domino is pretty portable.

[Mike Schuch]

If you are goinng to make a lot of arts and crafts furiture I can't see not buying a mortiser. I bought a cheap Harbor freight mortiser for drilling holes for balisters on a staircase hand rail I made. I made my own tilt base for the HF mortiser. It did a remarkably good job drilling square holes in hard maple after I sharpened the chissels. I would expect either of the 2 mortisers you mentioned to do an even better job than my heap HF mortiser.

A good work piece vice on an XY table makees lining up mortises much easier.

I use my radial arm saw with a dado blade to cut my tennons. I do own a good tennon jig for my table saw that I actually use some what frequently... I just have never used it for tenons. Personally I would rather have my tennon be a bit rough rather than machined perfectly smooth so the glue has something to bite into. A dado blade, a tennoning jig or a router, I don't think it really matters they will all get the job done nicely.


Lots of ways to skin that cat. I'm thinking of using my 690 w/plunge base and edge guide. The design calls for thru tenons on the lower stretchers so I was thinking I might pick up a 2" spiral bit and make multiple passes to depth. Think that would pose any problems?

I was watching Marc Spagnuolo's vid in which he cuts the tenons using a dado blade. I've got a tenoning jig for the TS but frankly the dado method looks much easier (once the blades are set up). Anyone try this method?

This is my first furniture piece in many years, and my first effort at an A&C design. My wife is quite fond of the style and wants me to build a houseful....I'm going to be making lots of mortises, many through thick stock. I'm tempted to just get a quality hollow chisel rig. If a bench top most likely a General 75-050T, however I've read that for cutting deep mortises in oak a higher power floor model might be a better choice. The Powermatic 1791264K w/Tilt is around $1,275 delivered...it's something I'd get a lot of use out of.

[Jim Dwight]

I've never had any splintering from an upcut bit that wouldn't be covered in the final joint - easily - on the top side. Bottom side is another matter. You could have a "blow out" - major chipout - when you push the bit through the other side. I have only done a few through mortises. You don't need them for strength with modern glues. Cutting from both sides of the piece will avoid the blow out. A backer piece should. Cutting the part a bit oversize so you can just cut off the chipout is another option. You can also "fake-it". Have a shallow mortise on the outside you plug with a fake tenon end.


In large pieces of wood - like a bed rail - I like to use a dado blade on my RAS. For little pieces, I like to use a home made jig that slides on my rip fence. I have a micro-positioner for my fence so I nibble the material away.


My tenon cutting got a lot better when I got a shoulder plane. Mine is a Stanley, a Veritas may be better (but is pricier). With a dado blade cut, the surface won't be very smooth. But a shoulder plane can clean that up. It also lets you fine tune the shoulders. My tenon jig gives me smooth enough cheeks but minor variations in stock thickness tend to turn into tenon variations in thickness. I can also fix that with the plane. I tried too long to get good fitting tenons without it. A sharp chisel can be used for trimming but is much more challenging to use than a good plane.

A slip tenon, a mortise in both pieces and a separate tenon you insert, is easier, especially with routed mortises with rounded ends. You just take a piece of scrap, doesn't even need to be the same wood, and plane it to thickness and round off the edges on the router table. Then cross cut to length. Avoids the tenon and shoulder trimming. Only disadvantage is you get to hear the router howl for twice as long.

[mike mcilroy]

+1 Drill and chisel.
I use this method because I'm too cheap for the mortiser and there's really no room for one. If you drill with a forstener bit and a backer board on the drill press table there will be no tear out

[Kent A Bathurst]

I was watching Marc Spagnuolo's vid in which he cuts the tenons using a dado blade. I've got a tenoning jig for the TS but frankly the dado method looks much easier (once the blades are set up). Anyone try this method?

This is my first furniture piece in many years, and my first effort at an A&C design. My wife is quite fond of the style and wants me to build a houseful....I'm going to be making lots of mortises, many through thick stock. I'm tempted to just get a quality hollow chisel rig. If a bench top most likely a General 75-050T, however I've read that for cutting deep mortises in oak a higher power floor model might be a better choice. The Powermatic 1791264K w/Tilt is around $1,275 delivered...it's something I'd get a lot of use out of.



Hey - Vroom Dude[tm]

You hit my wheelhouse. A+C is my schtick - I have my ow2wn version with common design cues - square spindle sides, through-tenons, etc. I have done enough for more than a house - but it is not all in my house.

The qty of M&T work is even bigger than you think:

1. Get used to the tenoning jig [I assume it is like the std Delta design?] Very easy to use, and - best part - you cut mortises first, and then set the tenon jig at a rough size - cut-rotate-cut. Check fit. Adjust jig. Rinse. Repeat. You sneak up on a perfect-fitting tenon, centered in the rail. There really is not more than seconds of setup time - even if one set you are on 12/16" rails, and the next on 13/16" or 1" or whatever.

2. "Lots of mortises" - "thick stock" - "houseful" - "get a lot of use out of" - "PM 719". All of those phrases belong in the same sentence. Sorry to all, but the PM719 is a killer machine.


PM if you want detailed comments/discussion - been running mine for >12 years [non-tilt].

[Kent A Bathurst]

Or would a backer prevent blowout on the exit hole?

Sacrificial backer essential on thru-mortises, regardless of method. I use 1/2" mdf scraps, but whatever............

[scott vroom]

The Whiteside 2" spiral bit I was looking at is 1/2" cutting diameter. The tenon stock is 3/4" so that would leave only 1/8" shoulders....doesn't seem like enough, or is it OK? The alternative is to go with a 3/8" cutter, but those have a max 1-1/4" cutting depth so I'd have to flip my 1-7/8" legs over to complete the mortise....extra work. That mortiser is starting to look more attractive :D

[Kent A Bathurst]

That mortiser is starting to look more attractive :D

You will be assimilated.

Resistance is futile.

[scott vroom]

I'm wondering how many folks use a downcut spiral to start the cut then finish with an upcut? Seems that would solve the problem of tear out.

[Jim Andrew]

Scott, look at the G0540 horizontal boring machine from Grizzly. I bought one on recommendation from someone on the creek, and it is cheap and works well as a slot mortiser. I also ordered some end mills to use for cutters. Have only tried it on some cuts, have yet to build any M&T projects as yet. But now I can when ready. Price is 450 plus 79 shipping. The instructions have set up, and it is very accurate after you align the cutter to the table. I need to get better at judging 1/4" depth changes, or I will be breaking some cutters. But it will cut more than 1/4" till the cutter is broken. Very simple machine.

[roger wiegand]

Almost every failed joint I've ever worked on in repairing old furniture has been a doweled joint; this has left me forever distrustful of dowels. I've used biscuits in low stress joints with no problems for decades, but I wouldn't use them where structural strength is required. For strength and longevity it's really hard to beat the mortise and tenon, and they just aren't that hard to make. Arts and Crafts is more than a visual style, it is an approach to working. One of the most common ways commercial A&C furniture fails is in picking up some of the visual cues, but using shortcut methods and losing the subtlety of appearance that comes along with authentic methods. From a structural point of view it's really hard to beat a well-fitted M&T drawn tight with a peg. Glue is pretty much superfluous in that case.

As to cutting mortises a mortising machine is nice and can save a lot of time on a production run, but drilling out the waste on a drill press and finishing with a sharp chisel is both quick and satisfying. For just one tables worth of joints it's probably faster than setting up a router jig or a mortising machine. Unless you're making a lot of joints the mortiser is a nice but not necessary machine. (That said, I have one and use it a lot)

[Jeffrey Martel]

I'm wondering how many folks use a downcut spiral to start the cut then finish with an upcut? Seems that would solve the problem of tear out.

I just use an upcut and have no problems with tearout. If you take a very shallow first pass, at like 1/16" or 1/8", you shouldn't have a problem.

[John A langley]

Scott you could use a domino do lose tenons,I think they're stronger than biscuits but if your tool junkie like me I buy the mortiser where you moving to

[Chris Padilla]

This guy in the Classifieds is selling a JDS Multi-Router for a good price (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?226390-JDS-Multi-Router-FSsale). The only catch is that the machine is on one of the Hawaiian islands. :D

I'm a Festool Domino guy now and pretty much use that for everything. My PM mortiser is gathering dust. My biscuit cutter is gathering dust. My tenoning jig is gathering dust. Hmmm.... :rolleyes:

[Jim Dwight]

Just a point about relative strength. I don't have a Domino and am not pitching it but I would observe that a slip mortise and tenon, one where both pieces get a mortise and a tenon is slipped in, is not weaker, or stronger, than a conventional mortise and tenon. As long as it's cut right and the same size, the conventional and slip joint have the same strength. The Domino would likely be more consistently good fitting for me and perhaps most of us. The only reason for a Domino joint to be weaker is if it can't be as large due to the limitations of the machine. That is probably why there are two sizes. Either of them would be more than I've ever spent on a tool - but not more than the nicer mortisers mentioned as a possibility earlier. Stated another way, I'd buy a Domino before I spent a similar amount of money on a mortiser. Speed is the biggest reason but I think it would also give more consistently high quality results.

[Michael Peet]

Hi Scott,

I recently made a bunch of mortises in QSWO using a shop-built router jig. Since the mortises were through, I pre-drilled most of the waste out first and then used a downcut spiral bit. This gave smooth-walled mortises with straight, clean edges.

307967

307966

The only downside is having to square the ends, if they will be visible.

Mike

[mreza Salav]

Please, if you want to spend upwards of a grand for a mortiser, get a Festool domino. Way more functional.
In your application, I'd choose dowels, plenty strong and fast if you have a good jig. Jessem makes good jigs for dowels (I have both).
I have done mortis and tenons by hand, loose tenons using routers and jigs (many many times), dowels (countless), dominos, etc. All have their applications.
I typically choose the one that is strong and fast/easy enough for the application.
I'd never trust biscuits in this application.

[scott vroom]

This guy in the Classifieds is selling a JDS Multi-Router for a good price (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?226390-JDS-Multi-Router-FSsale). The only catch is that the machine is on one of the Hawaiian islands. :D

I'm a Festool Domino guy now and pretty much use that for everything. My PM mortiser is gathering dust. My biscuit cutter is gathering dust. My tenoning jig is gathering dust. Hmmm.... :rolleyes:

Chris, what is the maximum mortise depth with a Domino?

[Chris Padilla]

Scott,

That depends on which Domino machine you are referring to (there are two styles out now) and it depends on the cutter you are using. I have the regular version (bought many moons ago, DF 500) and one can do 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10 mm Dominos with it. The largest Domino is 50 mm x 10 mm so I'm guessing one can plunge just a bit deeper than half the longest Domino. Edit: I found that it is 28 mm.

The big Domino (XL DF 700) can do 8, 10, 12 and 14 mm Dominos. The largest one for that one is 140 mm x 14 mm so I'm guessing one can plunge a bit deeper than half of that one. Edit: I found that it is 70 mm.

I've found that I use the 4 and 5 mm Dominos A LOT. 5 mm is perfect for 3/4" material but he 4 mm works just as well.

[scott vroom]

Scott,

That depends on which Domino machine you are referring to (there are two styles out now) and it depends on the cutter you are using. I have the regular version (bought many moons ago, DF 500) and one can do 4, 5, 6, 8 and 10 mm Dominos with it. The largest Domino is 50 mm x 10 mm so I'm guessing one can plunge just a bit deeper than half the longest Domino. Edit: I found that it is 28 mm.

The big Domino (XL DF 700) can do 8, 10, 12 and 14 mm Dominos. The largest one for that one is 140 mm x 14 mm so I'm guessing one can plunge a bit deeper than half of that one. Edit: I found that it is 70 mm.

I've found that I use the 4 and 5 mm Dominos A LOT. 5 mm is perfect for 3/4" material but he 4 mm works just as well.

Not sure I'm understanding. 1/2 of 140MM is about 2-3/4".....would that be the maximum mortise depth? That would handle most any A&C through joinery I'd be doing. Mmmmm. But it costs more than a floor model Powermatic 1.5 HP chisel mortiser, which from all accounts is a mortising beast.

[Chris Padilla]

Yes, 70 mm or about 2.75" is the max mortise depth of the Domino XL DF 700 using the 14 mm cutter. It is also a bit worse than just the price of the tool. You almost need a vacuum attached to the Domino...especially on a deep plunge like that.

[scott vroom]

Yes, 70 mm or about 2.75" is the max mortise depth of the Domino XL DF 700 using the 14 mm cutter. It is also a bit worse than just the price of the tool. You almost need a vacuum attached to the Domino...especially on a deep plunge like that.

What type of bit do they use?

[Chris Padilla]

307968
This the monster 14 mm cutter for the big Domino.

[James Zhu]

What type of bit do they use?

Festool domino cutter, check the following review videos from Paul Marcel

500 review

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLJaioykay4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP_-aIAQIYA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfzp57WYrHs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_gc64MlYzE

700 review
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njpThA7zorg

You could use Seneca's 500 cutter adapter (http://www.senecawoodworking.com/products/rts-500-cutter-adapter-for-festool-df700) on 700, then you could use all the 500 cutter on 700. but there are some limitation though, check http://www.halfinchshy.com/search/label/Domino%20XL%20%28Domizilla%29

500 is enough for most small medium furniture project. 700 is meant for large project, like big entry door.

Overall, Festool domino is a very unique wonderful tool, it makes the jointer ridiculously easy and fast.

James

[Roy Harding]

Almost every failed joint I've ever worked on in repairing old furniture has been a doweled joint; this has left me forever distrustful of dowels. I've used biscuits in low stress joints with no problems for decades, but I wouldn't use them where structural strength is required. For strength and longevity it's really hard to beat the mortise and tenon, and they just aren't that hard to make. Arts and Crafts is more than a visual style, it is an approach to working. One of the most common ways commercial A&C furniture fails is in picking up some of the visual cues, but using shortcut methods and losing the subtlety of appearance that comes along with authentic methods. From a structural point of view it's really hard to beat a well-fitted M&T drawn tight with a peg. Glue is pretty much superfluous in that case.

As to cutting mortises a mortising machine is nice and can save a lot of time on a production run, but drilling out the waste on a drill press and finishing with a sharp chisel is both quick and satisfying. For just one tables worth of joints it's probably faster than setting up a router jig or a mortising machine. Unless you're making a lot of joints the mortiser is a nice but not necessary machine. (That said, I have one and use it a lot)

What he said - X 100. Biscuits will NOT give any strength to a joint - they are useful for alignment. Loose tenons (Dominos) are better, strength-wise. There's a reason classic joints are classic - they work.

[Kent A Bathurst]

But it costs more than a floor model Powermatic 1.5 HP chisel mortiser, which from all accounts is a mortising beast.

Irrelevant, Kemo Sabe. PM is not green - its that simple - you pay for The Green because it is The Green.

You aren't really considering doing all those thru mortises, and go back and square them up by hand, are you?

Dude - that is nuts. Life is too short.

[Kent A Bathurst]

As to cutting mortises a mortising machine is nice and can save a lot of time on a production run, but drilling out the waste on a drill press and finishing with a sharp chisel is both quick and satisfying. For just one tables worth of joints it's probably faster than setting up a router jig or a mortising machine. Unless you're making a lot of joints the mortiser is a nice but not necessary machine. (That said, I have one and use it a lot)

I respectfully disagree. It is definitely faster than drill & chisel.

[Wade Lippman]

Wow, 45 replies in half a day!
I agree that biscuits won't do it. I got rid of my biscuit cutter because they aren't good for much of anything.
Personally I would use pocket screws. No one will see them, and they are plenty strong.
If that freaks you out, then dowels are fine. I use an old Stanley I got for $1 at a garage sale.
Sure, the Domino is great if you have an extra $1,200; I would use it over pocket screws if there was any chance of being seen.

Who cares what Arts & Crafts originally used? Are you making replicas or furniture? (the glue we have today actually works)
But then again, I hate QSWO; looks like furniture my grandparents would own. I have used butternut and african mahogany; but gosh, I guess it isn't A&C then....

[Jim Dwight]

If I used a Domino for the structural mortises and wanted the look of through mortises, I would fake it. I'd make shallow mortises and little fake tenon end plugs. It was for a different reason but I put fake tenon ends in a hall table to cover the screws holding the breadboard ends on. They look and work fine.

[Peter Quinn]

Who cares what Arts & Crafts originally used? Are you making replicas or furniture? (the glue we have today actually works)
But then again, I hate QSWO; looks like furniture my grandparents would own. I have used butternut and african mahogany; but gosh, I guess it isn't A&C then....

With a style like arts and crafts its hard to separate the aesthetics from the construction from the metaphysics. Its all so intertwined. You want it to look simple, sturdy, honest....it has to be simple sturdy and honest. But it doesn't have to be QSWO. Maybe for Stickley recreations specifically, but some of the best looking IMHO Stickley and most of the Green and Green as well as English arts and crafts were not QSWO, often mahogany, occasionally other species. And the style has endured and grown to include many things beyond its originators vision. So yes, it can still be A&C.....as long as it isn't ramchackled together with spit, gum, pocket screws and biscuits! Or at least in the definition of "Craftsman Style" to which I adhere....the one I made up in my mind.

I'm no fan of biscuits for leg to apron table connections. We can argue the ultimate strength of biscuits, engineers can test them, but when all is said and done...I can break biscuits with my teeth. Can you break 3/8" tenons in white oak with your teeth? On a right angle butt joint that is the central joint in a construction, with little other support, failure of which would be catastrophic to the piece in question....I feel the time and materials alone justify in all cases a better construction.

If I were buying a mortiser presently, the list would be short.......real short.....domino XL. thats the list. I use one weekly at work, have been for about a year, I have little need for other methods. I haven't bought one for home, because I have a slot mortiser...and a drill press with chisel attachment for small mortises and squaring shoulders....and the DP will make monster mortises with a forschner bit, and I have spiral carbides in every size I need for the plunge router from before I had the slot mortiser. And a full set of mortising chisels. So many good ways to make mortise and tenons, some faster, some cheaper, all excellent if done well. But if I were at zero, the XL domino would be the starting and ending point. Its so fast and strong, lets you focus on more important details, like shaping, sanding, finishing. I like joinery, for some it is the focus of the work, but its not mine, joinery is for me perfunctory and almost secondary. Absolutely required but not my emotional favorite. So why not make it painless? And the domino is as others have noted highly portable. If the joints have to go through, Id fake it unless they are getting wedged.

If you are going router, I don't think it much matters up or down cut, you could get compression bits that do both, but with a backer, like a piece of 1/8" MDF between jig and work, and something below if its a through plunge, there is little danger of damage even with upcuts IME.

[Frederick Skelly]

A different idea, FWIW. You can also use sliding dovetails, done with a router. Ive had good luck with those on tables, if I dont plan to have a functional drawer. (Couple times I made a fake inset drawer. It looks good for where I have the table standing and its less work.)

Good luck Scott!
Fred

[Jeffrey Martel]

Ok, this is how I do most of my Mortise & Tenons. Not as fancy as a dedicated Mortiser or a Domino, but it works likely just as well.

My Mortise jig is one out of a Woodsmith magazine, #147. Set the 4 stops on the top, and set one of the two fences on the bottom.

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And the tenon jig is from Woodgears.ca. The long walnut lever moves the carriage laterally, and using the dial indicator you are able to size the tenon exactly. There's 2 stop blocks so it's repeatable, and indexes from the same side for both sides of the tenon. You would then cut the cheeks off with a crosscut sled.

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Together they work very well and can make perfect M&T joints very quickly. For anything these don't cover, I just drill out and chop by hand. Not a big deal. No need to spend $$$$ on equipment when this does the same thing. If I did this for a living, then yes, it would make sense to buy one of those high dollar tools, but it doesn't make financial sense when these two jigs probably don't take much more time than those do.

[John Dana]

Frediricks sliding dovetail would be a good exercise.

Dominos are terrific and you can easily do what Jim suggest with that tool.

If you are determined to go traditional though and use a chisel and drill bits for your mortises - that can be fun as well. Much quieter and kind of nice way to spend a morning.

And if you really wanted a challenge you could pick up a book on Japanese joinery techniques.

have fun whatever you do.

[Alan Schwabacher]

There are plenty of methods and opinions. I prefer a traditional mortise and tenon, but other options are reasonable.

Biscuits will certainly add strength to the joint, and might even survive the application, but would not offer the safety margin I prefer. It's in edge joints where they won't add strength, simply because a glued butt joint is as strong as the wood anyway. They are tenons, just small ones.

A domino is not needed. It will add efficiency, and if you have the money and want to spend it, go ahead. But inserted tenons had been used for a long time before the domino, and the needed mortises can easily be cut with a router. As usual, Tage Frid described a good method. You can find a description in his books, or on the Highland woodworking website under "library". It might take an hour to make the jig.

[Joe O'Connor]

I just used a method I found on f.w.w. Website and it worked great. I made a simple jig, just an oval shaped hole in a piece of 1/4 ply, clamped it to the workpiece and used a guide bushing with a 1/4 up cut bit to route most of the way through the piece. With that done you need to drill a hole through the mortise a bit larger that your flush trim bit and use that to cut the mortise from the other side. Then it's just a matter of squaring up the corners. As far as the tenons I've gotten much better results using a jig than with a dado blade.

[Phil Thien]

Lots of arts and crafts style of furniture used exposed (through) M&T with chamfers on the ends of the tenon.

I've seen many methods to duplicate the style, often involving making fake tenon applications. But I do wonder sometimes if it wouldn't just be easier to do it the original way, with a mortising machine and a through tenon.

None of that probably matters if you aren't going for a real accurate depiction and don't care about that all the way through tenon look.

[Greg Hines, MD]

I really don't think you need to change bits in the middle. I use an upcut bit for all of mine, and make a thin plunge in to start, and then finish your mortise. In another post you mentioned that your stock is 3/4" thick. I would recommend a 1/4" or maybe 3/8" mortise. 1/2" is too wide and won't leave enough for your cheeks.

Doc

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Scott, almost all of the furniture I make is A&C in QSWO.

The GI mortiser works great, I've had mine 13 years now (non tilting head model).

When I make tenons on the saw, I much prefer the tenoning jig to the dado blade, much nicer tenons, almost as nice as those from a tenoner or shaper.

Regards, Rod.

[Prashun Patel]

Scott-

For the through mortises in the stretchers, unless you are going to use a mortiser, most other solutions require squaring up the corners.

If you had to do more than one of these, I would consider a double sided, saddled router jig that lines up the holes from both sides perfectly.

If you only have to do one (so 4-8 through mortises total) then, you may find that it is the most efficient (and arguably most satisfying) to use a drill press (assuming your dp can drill to depth) to use the drill press, then clean up with a chisel. In fact, you'll find paring down the sides to of the mortises to be the easy part. The work is all in wasting the corners and the end grain chops there.

As far as tenons go, I am personally a dado (in fact the speed tenon because I don't have a dado blade) method fan. The reason is that it's just easier for me to sneak up on the width of the tenon by tweaking the blade depth instead of the fence distance. This is truly a matter of personal preference.

[Kent A Bathurst]

As far as tenons go, I am personally a dado (in fact the speed tenon because I don't have a dado blade) method fan. The reason is that it's just easier for me to sneak up on the width of the tenon by tweaking the blade depth instead of the fence distance. This is truly a matter of personal preference.

I used to go that route on all tenons. Still do for those that are too unwieldy for the tenon jig. But - I changed for routine work to the tenon jig - because the perfectly smooth faces it leaves. The dado set ain't too shabby there either, but I just like it the other way.

[scott vroom]

Here's my first effort at a mortise and tenon. I used my plunge router w/guide and stops and a 1/4" beveled chisel to square up the round corners. Kinda sloppy on the chiseling, looks like I'll need to clean up with some filler. I left the tenon a bit long and will trim to 1/4" and bevel the edges. I'm finding the router cumbersome for mortising, and not very precise when flipping the piece to complete a through mortise. I'm planning to build a lot of A/C furniture and am leaning toward a hefty mortiser...the GI 75-075 looks like a sturdy work horse. It's a beast at 275 lbs.I was going to fume the QSWO with 26% aqueous ammonia but have pets and don't want to risk killing a curious doggie or cat so I've decided to chemically stain the wood with potassium dichromate. I did a test on a scrap piece and it darkens the wood nicely. I'm undecided on the finish and am open to suggestions. I've been using primarily waterborne on my cabs and want to try a more traditional oil or solvent based finish. Was wondering if BLO or tung oil would be a good choice.Thanks for all the helpful advice!

[Kent A Bathurst]

Here's my first effort at a mortise and tenon.......... looks like I'll need to clean up with some filler............. I've decided to chemically stain the wood with potassium dichromate. I did a test on a scrap piece and it darkens the wood nicely. I'm undecided on the finish and am open to suggestions........... Was wondering if BLO or tung oil would be a good choice.Thanks for all the helpful advice!

Scott -

Realize that there are expansion issues with those joints. Not so much in this narrow width, but when you get into wider tenons on, say, lower shelves in end tables, etc. - - you need to allow for expansion. Glue/pin the center, leave the ends free, make the mortises oversize. The point - if you inspect from-the-day A+C/Stickley, you will notice gaps at the ends of that type of tenon. You don't need filler - you need to remove more wood.


On the coloring - yeah - the ammonia was big back in the day, a bit of a PITA for me. The pot dichro is also traditional from back in the day - G&G in particular. Haven't tried it - let me know how it goes - I have often thought about that. Have you looked at Jewitt's approach in the Homestead site? Gets you a very solid period-correct-looking finish using modern materials.

ON the finish - I think you DON"T want a glossy, deep finish - not what you'd see on that style. I use home-brew version of danish oil: 1/3 BLO + 1/3 oil varnish of your choice + 1/3 turps.

Other people us something different that the turps. Whatever. That's what I like.

Ratios are not decimal-precision. Adjust as you like for what you want.

Over-thin first coat for absorption. Under-thin last coats for film build.

All coats: Flood on. Let it sit. Look for dry spots [especially first coat]. Keep adding to cover dry spots. You want to let it sit on there as long as you can, before it is gelling too fast for you to be able to get it wiped off. Which is when? - can't say. You will develop a feeling. For me, it is 30 - 40 Min.

Then - cotton rags toe wipe like crazy. FInish will weep out of joints - watch for that, It iwll harden is shiny globs. Use dowel with pencil point, covered with rag, and compressed air nozzle to blow it out of joints and wipe it up cleanly.

3 - 4 coats gives you a lovely soft finish.

BTW - Jewitt says use satin Arm-R-Seal.

[Charles Lent]

No one has mentioned the Beadlock floating tenon system yet. It only requires a clamp and an electric drill with a drill bit of the right size to use. When I was first starting to build projects that needed M & T joints I couldn't afford the bigger and fancier M & T tools, so I bought one of the Beadlock units. It did a fantastic job. You have to buy the floating tenon stock to use with it, but these are reasonably priced and you just cut them to length as you need them. Beadlock offers special router bits, if you will be using a lot of tenon stock and want to make your own. I bought the bit for making the 3/8 tenons because that's what I was using mostly. I now have an FMT Pro so I don't use the Beadlock anymore. I bought the FMT Pro jig when my need for M & T joints required a faster method for doing significantly higher volume, but used the Beadlock on many projects before the upgrade. The Beadlock is amazingly simple to use, reasonably priced, and does a great job.

Charley

[Art Mann]

A&C furniture was a rebellion against the cheap mass produced industrial furniture, often built cheaply with dowels.



You may think that dowels are a cheap construction method but some of the finest and most expensive Victorian furniture on earth was built with dowels. It has survived 300+ years so far.

[Art Mann]

I disagree that an expensive dowel jig is needed for good results. When I was 7 my first job helping my father in the shop was drilling dowel holes with a Craftsman dowel jig. I have been using that same jig for over 40 years now and it has never let me down. I prefer my horizontal boring machine to a dowel jig but the old Craftsman jig still does an excellent job when I need a dowel jig.


I just looked at every doweling jig that Sears currently sells and I have tried all, of them at one time or another, though not necessarily Craftsman brand. None of them provide the precision and versatility of a Dowelmax. Some are designed to work only with 3/4" lumber. Obviously, those are unsatisfactory. Others are the self centering kind. Those are no good because when making face frames and the like, you want to reference off the front face rather than center the holes on the edge of the material. Maybe what you are using isn't any of these. Do you have a picture?

[glenn bradley]

If you think about the function of the apron and stretcher you see that you need something with some extraction strength. I also would say tenon as first choice, dowels second and biscuits ill advised for this function (they do have their uses).


I found a Whiteside 2" depth upcut spiral, 3 flute. How do I avoid tear out? If I start the cut on the exposed side I'm likely to get splintering from the upcut bit, and the same when I punch through the other side. Would it make sense to make the first pass with a downcut spiral, then switch over to the upcut?

Or would a backer prevent blowout on the exit hole?

A backer would help at the exit point for hand held cutting of this joint. I use the router table/lift; I make the last pass within about 1/32" of going through, move to the starting point, raise the bit through the material like a drill and make the last pass. This yields a very clean slot. As a rule I upcut from the "shoulder side" so as you penetrate the material surface the spiral bit is acting as a drill as far as cutting direction goes.

On smaller pieces I have also used a false through tenon. That is; a regular M&T on the sretcher/shoulder side and a shallow mortise that accepts a decorative (as in non structural) and proud plug on the show side.

[scott vroom]

My through tenons are on 1-13/16" legs. I wasn't excited at the prospect of squaring up 4 rounded corners for the whole 1-13/16 depth so I tried a different approach (for me anyway). Kinda hard to describe so I attached a rendering. I first cut a 2" wide mortise but only 1/2" deep. I flipped the leg over and cut a 2-1/2" wide and 1-3/8" deep mortise. Got the picture? This allowed me to only have to square up a 7/16" deep mortise to accommodate the 2" wide tenon. I used a standard bevel edge chisel to clean up the corners. I'm wondering how many of you use those "mortise chisels" that are square and look like a hollow chisel you'd see on a mortiser, except hand held. That tool would appear to be much more efficient and clean than using a traditional single-facet bevel chisel. I've already made the decision to purchase a mortiser, most likely a GI 75-075. I've got thousands of M&T joints in my future and am getting old and in a hurry.

[Prashun Patel]

I have both style chisels. The mortise chisels allow you chop more in each blow. But they don't work in two dimensions like a hollow chisel mortise bit. You still have to work each of the corner in turn. I find mortise chisels good at registering right into the corner. They do make quicker work sometimes.

its sometimes hard to work the short sides of the mortise if they are cross grain. Here I find a mortise chisel excels vs a bench chisel.

But I would not expect a huge difference in your performance or results. I think your biggest gains will come from practice. Knowing where to place the chisel so the strikes or pushes are few and deliberate and efficient is 95pct of the battle.

mortise chisels really excel in chopping large amount it's of waste from the mortise. Like me you choose to waste with a router or drill bit. For clean up, a mortise chisel wont help vs a bench chisel too much.

[Kent A Bathurst]

My through tenons are on 1-13/16" legs. I wasn't excited at the prospect of squaring up 4 rounded corners for the whole 1-13/16 depth so I tried a different approach (for me anyway). Kinda hard to describe so I attached a rendering. I first cut a 2" wide mortise but only 1/2" deep. I flipped the leg over and cut a 2-1/2" wide and 1-3/8" deep mortise. Got the picture? This allowed me to only have to square up a 7/16" deep mortise to accommodate the 2" wide tenon.


Looks cool to me - a blind haunched tenon? must be a name for this somewhere..........

[scott vroom]

Looks cool to me - a blind haunched tenon? must be a name for this somewhere..........Not sure what it should be called besides lazy; I do know it won't win any awards on the neander forum :D:D

[Kent A Bathurst]

I do know it won't win any awards on the neander forum :D:D


Maybe - did you sharpen anything along the way? :p

[scott vroom]

Maybe - did you sharpen anything along the way? :p

I honed my chisel on the patio concrete...does that count?

[Kent A Bathurst]

I honed my chisel on the patio concrete...does that count?

Ummmm.....I'm not sure you should have posted that. The Neanders just put your name on some list they keep secret............

[Mike Schuch]

I just looked at every doweling jig that Sears currently sells and I have tried all, of them at one time or another, though not necessarily Craftsman brand. None of them provide the precision and versatility of a Dowelmax. Some are designed to work only with 3/4" lumber. Obviously, those are unsatisfactory. Others are the self centering kind. Those are no good because when making face frames and the like, you want to reference off the front face rather than center the holes on the edge of the material. Maybe what you are using isn't any of these. Do you have a picture?

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Simple, effective, accurate and doesn't break the bank. I have been using one for over 40 years and I have never had a problem with it! Like I said this jig and a drill was the first tool in the shop my father let me use.

But this is the one I use the most now:
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And it was quite a bit cheaper than a Dowelmax.