What would you do?

[Jason Morgan]

Okay, this has probably been done 1000 times here, but I would like to see what the current crop of creekers think.

$15000 and a blank 24x24 garage...ready...go!

Tools, lights, accessories etc.

How would you do it?

[Richard Wolf]

I think most people here may agree with me. Buy bigger and better basic machines than you think you need or can afford. Most of us have purchased two, three or more table saws, bandsaw, jointers and planers. When you factor in money lost trying to sell off your used machines to upgrade it can really cut into your bottom line. I wish I was able to take that route in the beginning.

Richard

[Doug Shepard]

If you're talking about permanently converting it to a shop and not parking cars in there any longer, then I'd start with the ergonomic issues. Like putting down a more comfortable floor over the concrete. Insulating/Heating/AC if those aren't already in there. Installing a dust collection system and good lighting, etc. I'm forced to share my shop with a car. Every time I'm working out there I WISH I could do some of that stuff way more than wishing I had new or better tools.

[Dennis Peacock]

24 by 24 is a great size....but you'll run out of space rather quickly. If you will do like Richard already stated....spend as much as you can on the best quality tools you can. Over the last 22 years of buying, selling, upgrading, trashing and buying more tools, I've spent a LOT more than I ever thought of. In fact, many of us have probably spent enough money to completely supply a nice small commercial shop with all new tools if the truth be known. :rolleyes: :o

It may bust your budget now, but it will save you in the long haul. Been there and busted the bank way too many times. :eek: :(

[Dale Thompson]

Jason,
First off, depending on where you live, the first thing that I would do is insulate the walls and ceiling. Make accommodations for heat and/or air conditioning, again, depending on your geographical needs. The best tools in the world will rust or otherwise malfunction in areas of high humidity and/or extreme cold. Besides, you are not going to use them if the shop temp is -30 or +110 degrees Fahrenheit.

Wire double receptacles about every 32 or 48 inches. The more the better and make sure that they are located about chest high so that you don't bust your skull trying to plug and unplug stuff. :mad: Wire in a couple, or more, 220v receptacles where you plan to place "major" machines. I would also panel my shop with 1/4" pegboard. That gives you maximum versatility in terms of hanging your "stuff" that needs to be hung. If you can't get the white stuff, paint it white. It brightens the shop a lot and doesn't show the accumulation of sawdust as much as dark paneling would. That will help fake out the wife, or whomever, when it comes to "Shop Inspection" time. ;) :cool: :)

Check out some websites on "Workshop Layout". I don't remember any of them off-hand but they DO exist. They give you recommended area requirements for various tools. I think that their suggestions are a bit "generous" but you can make your own decisions on that stuff.

TOOLS!!! NO WAY WILL I GET INTO THAT ONE!! I have enough enemies on this Forum already. :eek: They treat me like unrecycled garbage and have totally destroyed my delicate sense of self-esteem and personal confidence. :eek: :o :)

Congratulations on your Utopian situation!! :)

Dale T.

[Lee DeRaud]

I have enough enemies on this Forum already. :eek: They treat me like unrecycled garbage and have totally destroyed my delicate sense of self-esteem and personal confidence. :eek: :o :) It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.:D :cool:

[Mike Cutler]

Jason. I gotta echo the others, buy the best machines that you can afford.
If I wasn't planning on going commercial, and my work was primarily for myself, and maybe family and friends here is my list

A minimum 3HP tablesaw. Heavy iron.

A minimum 12" jointer. again heavy iron.

A minimum 16", 2+Hp bandsaw, the heaviest one I could find.

A 20" stationary planer, once again heavy.

24" dual drum sander.

3HP shaper table.

Stationary mortise machine.

3HP cyclone system.

A complete set of bench chisels, up to 1"

A complete set of mortise chisels.

A nice shoulder plane.

A nice rabbett plane

A nice #5 & #7 Bailey sized planes.

A complete assortment of high quality files and rasps.

A used Bridgeport Knee Mill. (I really, really want one of these)

For lights, I prefer incandescents, and halogens. The same type of lights the you have in the house. Not many folks have a house full of flourescents. Paint the walls an off white. I believe this gives me a better idea of what something will look like inside the house, under artificial lights.

These are sort of the basics. There are a hundred more tools that you will have to have. Routers, sanders, Miter saws, dovetail jigs. About a hundred different router bits it seems. Edge guides, vises. it just goes on and on.

Shop around ,and don't be afraid to buy used and invest some elbow grease.

PS. Clamps...Clamps...Clamps..., oh yeah, and clamps.
;)

[Jim O'Dell]

Begin with your electrical. Make sure you have enough oomph to handle the machines. Then tackle lighting. T-8's are the way to go from what everyone says. That's what I'm planning, but haven't purchased yet. My shop is 20 X 24 plus an attached 10 X 14 room for finishing. I'm planning on 10, 4'--4 bulb fixtures in the main shop, 2 or 3 more in the finishing room. Not sure yet if I'll go with the 4 bulb 8' fixtures, or the the 4 bulb 4' fixtures (like the troffers for suspended ceilings). Not sure the latter will fit between my ceiling joists. I've also put in some recessed cans for task lighting... you might consider that as well.
The next thing I would do is decide which cyclone to go with, and install it. There are several really good units in the $1000 range plus ducting. From there:

TS-get a good cabinet model...Uni, Powermatic-makes little difference, just get a good one. If you enjoy restoration, get an old one and rebuild it. $1500-2400
BS again, get a good one. I wish I could have afforded the Mini Max MM16, but have settled for the E16 which will probably do everything I need, BUT....$2200-2600
DP. Not critical to spend a fortune here, just get a solid machine. I opted for the Delta 17-965 at just under 4 bills. I haven't used it extensively, but it has amazed me each time I've turned it on for a task. $400
Planer..again wish I could afford a good floor standing model. 15" minimum haven't priced these closely, but figure $1200 give or take a little.
Jointer get an 8" minimum. I'm hoping for one in the next couple of years. If I can find a used one, I might go that route. $900-1500
Many people like their big drum sanders. They look to be a big help again guessing price, $800 or so?
Big honking router for table use $200-325 (I got my PC 7518 for about $225 at Amazon by watching and waiting)
Smaller router for hand held use. Make sure it has soft start and variable speed. I got my PC 8529 on close out at Lowes for 159.95 less 10 % coupon. couldn't find it on line for much under 200.
Scroll saw. I wouldn't spend a whole lot here unless this is something you think you will use a lot. I bet you can get a decent one for 200-300.
Probably will want a good compound miter saw. 10" slider for $525-625.
That leaves you about 4.5k for hand tools, portable power tools, etc. OH I forgot, you need a good air compressor. 450-800 should get a good unit. I'm looking for an IR to be on sale when I get to the point of getting one.
So change that est to 3.7 to 4.2K left to spend, less what your ducting will cost you for the cyclone. A biscuit jointer, pocket hole tool, air brad nailer, air stapler if you think you might do some upholstery work (get a 1/2" model!!!) 2 cordless drills, 1 small 1 beefy, drill bits, counter sink bits, Forstner bits, and a good selection of quality router bits should be high on your list. Don't forget a good selection of quality screw drivers. There are many accessories you can get for your equipment, but many build their own jigs and sleds to fit their personal needs. I did splurge on a Smart Miter from JoinTech, and it is truely amazing. Another item that is nice, but not a have to have unit is a router plate, depending on what router you get for your table work. For me and my 7518, it was a must to be able to adjust it easily, and I got the PRL from Woodpeckers. Very solidly built.
Lathe? You will have to decide if you want one. I can't help you there.
You should have some money left over to purchase some wood for your first 3 projects...Router table, work bench, and shop cabinets. You pick the order that will work best for you. Me, I'll do mine as the cabinets first, work bench second, then the router table third.
If you meant actually which brand and Items of each to buy, well I did specify a couple, but for the one's I haven't decided on for me yet, I didn't think it was fair to try to decide for you. Heck, the wading through the tool shops, online and print catalogues, and woodworking shows are half the fun. Good luck on your decisions. If you get good quality, you won't pick a bad unit.
Now for my decision, it's almost 8:00...what's for supper?!??? Jim.

[Jim O'Dell]

PS. Clamps...Clamps...Clamps..., oh yeah, and clamps.
;)


Mike, you're right on this. I forgot about clamps, since I haven't bought any yet, except a few cheap pipe clamps. Probably expect to spend what about $800 on clamps if you're going to build cabinets???? Jim.

[Steve Ash]

Insulate it, heat it, put a pair of bunk beds in it, refrigerator, TV, then let the in laws stay in it when they visit!:D
Just kidding..... I would insulate it and heat it....put down some anti fatigue mats, buy a bunch of nice machinery and accesories which would include a cabinet saw, 15" planer, 8" jointer, shaper, dual drum sander, dust collector and lots of clamps!
If I wanted to set this shop up to make income, then I'd spend some for advertising.

[lou sansone]

Great question

my advise would be to slow down and take your time when buying tools. I have found over the years that buying good used industrial equipment is more cost effective in the long run if you want heavy duty tools at a reasonable price. For instance one of the creekers just picked up a nice industrial drill press that is ideally suited for wood working for about $600 used. I happen to have a similar drill press. That drill press cost $11,000.00 new! So you can see that if you want to buy all "new" equipemnt in that class of tools your $15,000 would not go very far. Just thought I would offer my .02 cents. Best wishes
lou

[Dale Thompson]

It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.:D :cool:

Lee,
HMMMM!!?! :confused: Was it just a delightful dream or did I actually see Disneyland turned into another Atlantis by the latest 18.9 earthquake? ;) If you want to be REALLY safe, move to Wisconsin! :eek: You can stay with my neighbor since you have something in common. He doesn't like me either! :cool: :) :)

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

Mike, you're right on this. I forgot about clamps, since I haven't bought any yet, except a few cheap pipe clamps. Probably expect to spend what about $800 on clamps if you're going to build cabinets???? Jim.

Jim,
Forget about clamps! Spend a few bucks (less than $100) on a Kreig Pocket Hole Jig and save the rest for wine, women, song and a divorce lawyer! ;) :cool: :eek: :)

Dale T.

[Paul B. Cresti]

I have a 24x24 shop and it is too small! go as big as you can. Yes heat and cool it along with dehumidification. Get a central DC system and use metal ducting. Best scenario is to stick the DC in a closet or outside in its own closet.

Equipment is a tough one, many opinions, so I will give you mine. Go three phase and buy European style machinery. Forget the old iron and the new "American style iron" it is antiquated. I think the old stuff is great to look at but guess what I love my hands and fingers too. Sorry guys but we have been making the same "style" of equipment for the past (or now I should say import) what 70-80 years??? All while the European stuff has gotten more advanced and safer.

[Dan Forman]

Though Dev and Lou have fantastic shops, the old stuff isn't for everyone. If I remember correctly, they both have engineering backgrounds, which is probably a necessity in order to tune them up and keep them running. I know that I would be way over my head with such equipment, not to mention the three phase power, the huge footprints, and the fact there is no way to get them into my basement.

If I was buying another table saw, I would go for the General (Canadian) over the Unisaw which I ended up with. The General has a flatter top, and the wings mate perfectly, better than the Delta.

24x24 is a very nice size, but not huge. My basement is 24x19, and it's starting to fill up now. You might want to consider a combination jointer/ planer. Saves the footprint of another machine, and both use the same material lane. The Mini Max 14" jointer/planer is on sale now for $5495.

I would hold off on a big drum sander. You might find that you want to work more with handplanes, and eliminate a lot of sanding.

You might also think about a guided circular saw for cutting sheetgoods to size.

Don't forget about a workbench. You can build your own basic bench for a few hundred dollars, or spend as much as you want for a readymade. You can always make a fancy one later, but you can't do very much until you have something.

You will want dedicated 220 circuits for each of the major stationary machines and the dust collector, so figure four or five of those.

Shapers are nice, but the tooling is expensive. A router in a table is probably more practical unless you are making lots of raised panels and such. Even then, a nice selection of router bits will set you back plenty.

The T-8 flourescent lights are higher output than standard tubes, but the ones I have seen produce a very cool (bluish) light, which will make it difficult to work with stains and such. I use regular shop lights, but place one "cool" and one "warm" bulb in each fixture. This combination produces a very pleasant, color balanced light, which will let you see colors more accurately and are easier on the eyes. I use Phillips "soft white" for warm, Sylvania "designer cool white" for the cool. They each have an output of over 3000 lumins, as opposed to 2000 for standard tubes. You can use "sunlight" or "daylight" bulbs for the cools, but they are too harsh to use by themselves in my experience. A few strategically located incandescents will round out the spectrum nicely.

Dan

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Dale you are crackin' me up buddy! I can't think of anything more to add Jason, except that I hope you have a blast doing this!!

[Chris Barton]

The only departure from all of the great advice I have seen so far would be to spend a month reading... reviews of power tools. Also, I agree with others who say that 24x24 sounds big until you start moving everything in. The post regarding electricals is very important. You want lots of 220 outlets at 30 amps and it would probably be a great investment to have an electrician come in and give you a consultation. HVAC is high on the list as well. Needs a bathroom unless there is one very close by. good luck...

[Steve Rowe]

Insulate it, heat it, put a pair of bunk beds in it, refrigerator, TV, then let the in laws stay in it when they visit!:D
Just kidding.....
Steve - this looks a little backward to me. I would stay in it when the inlaws came. Ahhh! - The perfect escape... :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jason....as stated by the others......insulate, make accomadations for heating and cooling. Try to determine major machinery placement so that you can determine positioning requierements for electrical and DC ducting before you start. Since you are starting with a blank pallet over do your electrical NOW. It's cheaper and easier to say "I really didn't need that 110 or 220 outlet" than install one after your shop is finished. Place your electrical outlets at least 52" off the finished floor height. Then you can stand sheet goods against the wall and have the outlets accessible and they should be a comfortable height above any workbenches you might install. Good luck with your project! Enjoy!

[Jim O'Dell]

Jim,
Forget about clamps! Spend a few bucks (less than $100) on a Kreig Pocket Hole Jig and save the rest for wine, women, song and a divorce lawyer! ;) :cool: :eek: :)

Dale T.
Oh, I couldn't agree more about the Kreg. I did mention a "pocket hole tool", just not a brand name. But me, I'm a bit af a klutz these days. If I'm assembling a cabinet carcass, I better have some clamps to hold it together while I drill and screw in the pocket holes and screws. Otherwise it will look like a one man chinese fire drill in very slow motion!! Jim.

[Dale Thompson]

Otherwise it will look like a one man chinese fire drill in very slow motion!! Jim.

Jim,
I always thought that that was the way a shop OUGHT to look! :confused: Now you are challenging me with a new ultra-high working speed, "very slow motion". :mad:

Do I need an extra set of "programmed" beads on my abacus to up-shift into this new-fangled, "very slow motion" thing? :confused: :o :eek:

I GIVE UP!! :eek: What's the point of riding the razor's edge of technology when I have to answer to a bunch of "Creekers"? It appears as though I am suffering the same fate as Galileo!! :eek: Galileo, OH GALILEO!! Wherefore art thou GALILEO?? ;) :) :)

Dale T.

[lou sansone]

I have a 24x24 shop and it is too small! go as big as you can. Yes heat and cool it along with dehumidification. Get a central DC system and use metal ducting. Best scenario is to stick the DC in a closet or outside in its own closet.

Equipment is a tough one, many opinions, so I will give you mine. Go three phase and buy European style machinery. Forget the old iron and the new "American style iron" it is antiquated. I think the old stuff is great to look at but guess what I love my hands and fingers too. Sorry guys but we have been making the same "style" of equipment for the past (or now I should say import) what 70-80 years??? All while the European stuff has gotten more advanced and safer.

In general I agree with paul on many of his points, especially on exploring the option of 3 phase. I also think it depends on just what you intend to make. If you are doing boxes (kitchens and such ) and a lot of panel processing ( retail display Point of Sale or trade show booths) , then I probably agree completely on all points. Many of my commercial friends are now all CNC to stay competitive. If you are doing 1-off high end case pieces and reproductions then I think one could still include a good portion of older american iron that would provide very adequite service. The european machines are great, no question about it. If I had unlimited funds you would see a lot of martin lables in my shop. I have looked to buy older european equipment and my 24" casadei planer is a good example of quality european engineering. I would also agree that the tersa heads are real attractive, and from what I understand pretty standard now in industry. Just the same, for the money my Newman 60 jointer and Moak 36" BS are still pretty solid machines.

lou

[Cecil Arnold]

Okay, for $15,000 here goes. A MM300 combo and 16" BS, adiquite electrical power to run them (that should get you to $12,000 plus if you can get a show price) a DC, some shaper blades, insulation and some HVAC. Then find some more money.

[Ed Lang]

Come on over to the turning forum and we will be happy to help you get all set up right!

Have fun and make sure to buy the BEST of what you want the first time around.