Getting a Saw Started

[Jim Koepke]

Instead of hijacking another thread on saws it seemed better to start a new thread on starting a saw.

Here is a quick video made today of me making a short saw cut:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea5ojH9SnH8

Of course my hand isn't in the frame so you can't see how the heel of my hand works against the bottom horn to lighten the front of the saw.

The video is of a crosscut. My rip cuts are pretty much the same.

307860

When learning to saw, the way to start a cut was to pull back on the saw. Now this seems messy and the saw seems to bounce around. For a better result, it seems starting with light forward strokes has a cleaner finish.

Hopefully others will show us their tips on starting a saw cut.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

I would add :
Pulling back is OK for a cross cut because of the knife shaped nature of the cross cut teeth that tend to cut some in pull as well as push.

For rip saw starting pushing is probably the best way to go.

Wasn't there an old thread about a type of tool that was used as or right after the marking knife, perhaps on the other side of the line in some cases (in the waste side of the line). The tool was to create a guide kerf for the saw to start in so the cut was right on the line.

Seems like maybe it was even a two part tool. Two points like Derek's cutting gauge and then a chisel shaped cutter to get the depth of the guide kerf.

Typing it all out makes it sound like so much wasted time and motion but for some things it might be pretty cool.

Any body know about what I am referring to or did I dream all that up? :p
The end result was kind of like what a kerfing blade on a plywood table saw does.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Jim K -

looks fine. My take-away is that, as a middlin' back saw operator, my cuts don't take appreciably more time than yours. I always have this thing in the back of my mind that says I am moving too slow. And - maybe I am, but I can live with it knowing I am in your league, if not your exact ballpark.

My problem musta come from that 60 seconds I wasted one time watching that one Rob Cosman video on cutting dovetails in that warm butter............er...........I mean...........wood. Must be the brand of saw he uses, eh? ;)

[Jim Koepke]

I would add :
Pulling back is OK for a cross cut because of the knife shaped nature of the cross cut teeth that tend to cut some in pull as well as push.

For rip saw starting pushing is probably the best way to go.

Wasn't there an old thread about a type of tool that was used as or right after the marking knife, perhaps on the other side of the line in some cases (in the waste side of the line). The tool was to create a guide kerf for the saw to start in so the cut was right on the line.

Seems like maybe it was even a two part tool. Two points like Derek's cutting gauge and then a chisel shaped cutter to get the depth of the guide kerf.

Typing it all out makes it sound like so much wasted time and motion but for some things it might be pretty cool.

Any body know about what I am referring to or did I dream all that up? :p
The end result was kind of like what a kerfing blade on a plywood table saw does.

Even with crosscut filed saws my tendency is to start cuts with a push stroke. It seems easier to have a consistent way of starting all cuts.

BTW, the saw in the video is filed rip but works fine cross grain. You can see that it does leave a little fuzz on the cut.

The tool you are thinking of may be a kerf starter. Glenn Drake makes one.

Another method is to use the marking knife to remove wood next to the scribed line to help start a saw. Some just notch the corner where the saw is going to start cutting.

Chris Shwarz wrote something about three kinds of cuts: mark and cut, notch and cut and groove and cut. Marking and cutting seems to work fine for me on most cuts, but often the marking knife is drawn back to peel out a notch to cut. What ever works...


I always have this thing in the back of my mind that says I am moving too slow. And - maybe I am, but I can live with it knowing I am in your league, if not your exact ballpark.


Thanks for the vote of confidence Kent. My sawing really isn't all that great. My big excitement recently was having some of my potting bench dovetails go together without having to pare the pin walls. A few needed paring. There were also some gaps. Not as bad as my dovetails used to be.

Hopefully sawing to a line is akin to sharpening in that the more one does, the better one gets.

jtk

jtk

[Jim Matthews]

I use my marking knife to take a little chip out,
at the far side of the cut, in the waste.

It gives the saw a place to start at rest.

[Pat Barry]

I would add :

Wasn't there an old thread about a type of tool that was used as or right after the marking knife, perhaps on the other side of the line in some cases (in the waste side of the line). The tool was to create a guide kerf for the saw to start in so the cut was right on the line. .
Ahem... Isn't that the entire purpose for a saw nib? JK

[Brian Holcombe]

Jim, I think that is the case. I used to be quite bad at sawing, then took on a project where I'm building mitered corner frames.....70 frames later I've gotten much better at sawing.

Mike gave me a tip with the saw that he sent me, and that was to start it flat on the cut, I now use this method for big saws.

i'll ask my wife if she can video me, I'm not the best sawyer by any means, but I've improved dramatically in the past couple years.

[Judson Green]

Jim, I think that is the case. I used to be quite bad at sawing, then took on a project where I'm building mitered corner frames.....70 frames later I've gotten much better at sawing.

Mike gave me a tip with the saw that he sent me, and that was to start it flat on the cut, I now use this method for big saws.

i'll ask my wife if she can video me, I'm not the best sawyer by any means, but I've improved dramatically in the past couple years.

Brian, what do you mean by "start it flat on the cut"?

[Tom M King]

I never really paid attention to how I start a saw. I expect it varies, depending. Yesterday I was cutting the ears on a 10/4 White Oak window sill replacement on an old house, and used a 6 pt. rip saw for the lengthwise cut. I started it on the full width of the end I was cutting down into. That saw has 0 rake. If I had started it on the off corner, it might have taken out a chunk wider than the cut. If started on the near corner, it might have gotten hung up. As it went, it started right off, and melted right down in the wood. Sharp always helps.

[Winton Applegate]

notch and cut (vs groove and cut)

I have not been satisfied with notching for one reason or another. Almost seems to ramp the saw across the line rather than keep it on the line.
Or maybe I just can’t saw and need to stick to sharpening jigs to stay in my comfort zone.
And on real hard stuff cutting a significant notch very far along the line gets tedious.


Even with crosscut filed saws my tendency is to start cuts with a push stroke. It seems easier to have a consistent way of starting all cuts.

Yesterday I would have agreed with you . . . today . . . now that you have made me sit here and “think” about it how about this :
talking purely cross cut now


IF the line is knifed then start on the push (or pull doesn’t matter)
If the line is a pencil mark ( or fine marker / just NOT knifed) then start on the pull stroke to sever the first fibers so they don’t get sproinged outward.


Now w’er over thinking it.

There now . . .
What do you say to that ?

Pat,

Ahem... Isn't that the entire purpose for a saw nib?
you’ve hit on it ! ! ! no one else could solve it but now we know.

[Isaac Smith]

I've seen a lot of people pick up my saws over the past couple of years. A fair percentage of these struggle with using them, especially starting the cut. There are three suggestions I offer that seem to help most people. It looks pretty much like your video.

First: Give yourself a running start. Figuratively, of course, by starting with most, or even all, of the weight of the saw off of the wood. If the teeth are hovering above the wood, or just barely touching it, it is much easier to start moving the saw forward to gain momentum. Once that momentum is gathered, put it to work and bear down a bit more.

Second: Anchor the saw against yourself. Set your offhand thumb on the wood, then press the saw lightly against it. This keeps the saw from skittering sideways as you start pushing it. This is especially important if you follow the advice above.

Third: I like to cut with the grain when possible (this really only applies to rip cuts). For cuts like dovetails or tenon cheeks, that means either starting the cut on the near side of the wood or starting with the teeth flat on the end grain. Starting the cut on the far side is similar to planing against the grain. It works, but it usually sounds and feels a bit rougher.

That's about all I have. Nothing exotic, and it may not work for everyone.

[Winton Applegate]

running start
I agree.
For dovetails I prefer the LN coarse tooth dovetail saw (10 T) and that's the way I roll.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks for posting this, Jim. A video really helps a lot for something like this. My technique is very similar. The thing I recently learned and am trying to incorporate is starting on the push by taking the weight off the saw toe.

It's good to hear that I seem to be heading in the right direction! I just need a little more practice to commit it to muscle memory.


Instead of hijacking another thread on saws it seemed better to start a new thread on starting a saw.

Here is a quick video made today of me making a short saw cut:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea5ojH9SnH8

Of course my hand isn't in the frame so you can't see how the heel of my hand works against the bottom horn to lighten the front of the saw.

The video is of a crosscut. My rip cuts are pretty much the same.

307860

When learning to saw, the way to start a cut was to pull back on the saw. Now this seems messy and the saw seems to bounce around. For a better result, it seems starting with light forward strokes has a cleaner finish.

Hopefully others will show us their tips on starting a saw cut.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

For cuts like dovetails or tenon cheeks, that means either starting the cut on the near side of the wood or starting with the teeth flat on the end grain.

Isaac, thanks for pointing this out. For me on dovetails it is starting with the teeth on the flat.

This is demonstrated here:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?227535-Building-Potting-Benches&p=2378566#post2378566

It isn't as clear as you stated above.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks Dan.


I just need a little more practice to commit it to muscle memory.

Glad to hear you only "need a little more practice." It seems I am going to need a lot more. :D

jtk

[Curt Putnam]

Jim,

Thanks for that video. So far, I've watched it about a dozen times. One thing I did notice was that you still do a little pulling backwards. Muscle memory. :D Issac mentioned starting on the near side for dovetail cuts - that way one can follow both lines at the same time. I find that for the far corner it's easier to use the toe end of the saw and for the near corner it's easier to use the heel end. That's for back saws. Big rip saws are another ball game whose rules I have yet to comprehend let alone master.

In my quest to learn the use of a hand saw I have tried many approaches. For dovetail cuts where any lack of precision tells I have found Kevin Glen-Drake's Kerf Starter to be a very useful tool. A properly sharpened and burnished Kerf Starter leaves a nice guide trench for the saw. They come is different plate widths so you can match to your saw's plate. I have yet to try using it for dado cuts. One day - RSN.

[Jim Koepke]

One thing I did notice was that you still do a little pulling backwards.

One of the videos that helped me a lot was of someone moving their saw rapidly back and forth to start their cuts on end grain. My attempts at getting good at this technique hasn't been totally successful.

Funny how all the little details of what one does aren't apparent until someone else calls them to our attention.

It is good to see others contribute to this discussion. Every little tip or practice added may help others to improve their work.

jtk

[Daniel Rode]

I need a little more practice for it to become habit. My natural instinct is to pull back since I've always done it that way. Getting good at it is a much, much longer process :)

Thanks Dan.



Glad to hear you only "need a little more practice." It seems I am going to need a lot more. :D

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Brian, what do you mean by "start it flat on the cut"?

Quite literally flat on the board, I use my thumb as a fence until I get a groove started, then I will angle the saw nose up.

[Daniel Rode]

I'm having trouble visualizing this. I'll start a cut this way for through dovetails but I can't see how it would work sawing a board across the length with a normal rip saw. Putting the nose up, would put the handle below the saw bench, No?

Quite literally flat on the board, I use my thumb as a fence until I get a groove started, then I will angle the saw nose up.

[paul cottingham]

Forgive me for saying his name aloud, but I use Chris Shwarz' (or however you spell his name) method. Hold the saw like a baby bird. Stroke forward like you are lightly landing a plane. Lightly is the key.
Works well for me, and I can barely feel my hands or a saw in them when I'm holding it. All you healthy fellows should find it easy.
Or maybe someone else brought this up and I didn't see it.

[Judson Green]

Quite literally flat on the board, I use my thumb as a fence until I get a groove started, then I will angle the saw nose up.

Sorry, still confused... no actually more confused.

I'm probably reading things into it. Took me quit a while to understand what a booby trap really does.

[Brian Holcombe]

Perhaps I'll post a video tonight.

[Mike Allen1010]

I've seen a lot of people pick up my saws over the past couple of years. A fair percentage of these struggle with using them, especially starting the cut. There are three suggestions I offer that seem to help most people. It looks pretty much like your video.

First: Give yourself a running start. Figuratively, of course, by starting with most, or even all, of the weight of the saw off of the wood. If the teeth are hovering above the wood, or just barely touching it, it is much easier to start moving the saw forward to gain momentum. Once that momentum is gathered, put it to work and bear down a bit more.

Second: Anchor the saw against yourself. Set your offhand thumb on the wood, then press the saw lightly against it. This keeps the saw from skittering sideways as you start pushing it. This is especially important if you follow the advice above.

Third: I like to cut with the grain when possible (this really only applies to rip cuts). For cuts like dovetails or tenon cheeks, that means either starting the cut on the near side of the wood or starting with the teeth flat on the end grain. Starting the cut on the far side is similar to planing against the grain. It works, but it usually sounds and feels a bit rougher.

That's about all I have. Nothing exotic, and it may not work for everyone.

+1 to what Issac said. Particular the part about think "hovering" saw teeth over the layout line, guided by your offhand thumb.

When using a full-size saw (as compared to a backed saw), I think it's helpful to keep the tooth line at a very small angle relative to the workpiece when starting the cut (Almost like the teeth are laying flat on top of the workpiece). this makes it easier to keep the weight off the saw to let you "hover" it where you want to start. Once you get the cut started, you can increase the angle to a more comfortable, efficient 45° (or whatever works for you):

307958307959

[Ron Bontz]

I would not put myself in the expert category but here is how I generally test/ start the cuts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql4KERFajyI Different strokes for different folks.

[Brian Holcombe]

I'm certainly not expert with this saw yet, but I think I've got a good handle on it, this is how I start. Mind you, I generally cut small pieces on the regular bench, but I wanted to show the saw bench in use as well.

http://youtu.be/zgY5Mblfilc

[Brian Holcombe]

Sawing through 5/4 walnut with the Dovetail saw

http://youtu.be/XCjAXaENfXM

[Brian Holcombe]

I have one on how to light a cigar as well, if more help is needed.

[Judson Green]

I have one on how to light a cigar as well, if more help is needed.

Nope, if smoking and drink was a martial art I'd be a black belt.

Thanks for the videos

[Brian Holcombe]

A man after my own heart. I trust that's true among much of this crowd, the whisk(e)y thread really took off for a while there, almost to point of contending with a Freehand sharpening thread.

Anytime!

[Daniel Rode]

Now I get it! After seeing it done, it makes perfect sense. I don't do a lot of ripping but I'll have to give this a shot next time.


I'm certainly not expert with this saw yet, but I think I've got a good handle on it, this is how I start. Mind you, I generally cut small pieces on the regular bench, but I wanted to show the saw bench in use as well.

http://youtu.be/zgY5Mblfilc

[Brian Holcombe]

Cheers! Mind you, shorts are much easier to cut upright in the tail vise, but I start them the same way.

[Jim Koepke]

Glad to see others posting their videos.

If this was available a decade ago my sawing would likely be a lot better.

jtk

[Mike Allen1010]

I have one on how to light a cigar as well, if more help is needed.

OK that tears it. Now it's official- I grew up in the wrong era:)! Video instructions for various woodworking skills AND how to properly light a cigar (to achieve that perfectly symmetrical ash on your Hoya De Monterey Double Corona)!!

Apparently all the manly arts I've spent my 55 years learning are now available via on demand video! If there's You tube for training dogs/hunting birds, buying a good suit and marrying the right girl, then my value as a father to our two boys just became obsolete! No wonder they never listen to me - they already learned everything on the internet:).

Brian, your a man after my own heart -whiskey, cigars and woodworking- what else do you need?

Cheers, Mike

[Brian Holcombe]

I think we may be missing one.....how to pan-sear steaks :D

Cheers!

[Kent A Bathurst]

I have one on how to light a cigar as well, if more help is needed.

Yes. Please.

This I gotta see...................

[ian maybury]

Did i notice a carpet on the workshop floor there Brian?

On the sawing. I'm relatively new to back saws (bought a set of Veritas saws last year), but with a fair amount of handsawing from a very young age. I seem to do ok on getting started. I had some initial problems with catching and bouncing, but unloading the saw as recommended by various seems to help that enormously as long as I don't mess it up.

One set up issue that seems to matter a lot in my case is to place the work set at the right height. I've been using a temporary bench that's much too high, and find that it causes a tendency for the saw to drift off the line as i go down a longer cut. At that stage the game is lost - attempted straightening inevitably results in a twisted cut. When i check i always seem to have managed to pull my elbow in too tight to my body, and to have it tensed too much.

Standing on something to relatively speaking lower the work seems to resolve the issue most of the time - it permits properly relaxing my arm and the saw then (most of the time) holds its line....

[Brian Holcombe]

Yes. Please.

This I gotta see...................

Hah, now I'm going to have to actually make that video :p The first bit will just be me hunting through bottles of scotch for the perfect accompaniment. Port, Bourbon, rye, espresso and heavy burgundies are all approved choices as well.

[Winton Applegate]

Ron,

Different strokes for different folks.
Pull stroke start for rip.
That was impressive. Following the line even on the back side ! Beautiful saws with out a doubt.
What my little pea brain noticed . . . completely unrelated to performance and obviously perfect results was that . . .
when visually compared with the stationary , very nice, Powermatic cabinet saw base in the back ground . . .
your vise/bench moves not only back and forth but up and down. A small amount but discernible.
Meaningless but I couldn't help noting it.

[Winton Applegate]

Brian
and everyone did you see that ?

Sawing through 5/4 walnut with the Dovetail saw

I have one on how to light a cigar as well, if more help is needed.
(ha, ha nice one)
Well forgive me but now I am obsessed with it . . .
besides what appeared to be less effort cutting the wood than Ron's vid
there was zero flex (effectively) in the bench/vise/work compared against the stationary line of the shelf support in the back ground in your vid.
Shoulder vise / Klausz bench = good.

PS: I am curious . . . Brian, did you sharpen that saw or is that stock or did someone else sharpen it ?

[Brian Holcombe]

Lol! I did sharpen it a few weeks ago. I ran through Mike's walk-through and it's been cutting fantastically since (thanks Mike!).

[Winton Applegate]

Mike's walk-through and it's been cutting fantastically since (thanks Mike!).
It shows.

the prompt said my message was too short so I am typing this to lengthen it.
First my messages are "too long" (PM prompt)
Now they are "too short" (this message).
This posting stuff is nerve racking.